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Author Topic: What are the cannon munckin machines?  (Read 4014 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #60 on: 17 October 2018, 18:35:15 »
Ammo dumping problem solution? Don't allow it.

No commander would allow you to just jettison 2000 lbs of MG ammo or that extra SRM 6 ton off of a Battlemaster. The stuff is there for a reason.

Lolwhat?  The commander will chew you out a hell of a lot harder if you just lost a nearly irreplaceable (assuming 3025) Warhammer due to not dumping the MG ammo when the torso armor started getting breached.

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SteelRaven

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #61 on: 17 October 2018, 20:46:43 »
Biggest problem with MGs is that you had no real use for them until TW change the dynamic with infantry and also gave us rapid fire rules to justify that 1 Tone of MG ammo.

All the same; at this rate, the only mech that will not be on this list will be the freak'n Urbie. 
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #62 on: 17 October 2018, 20:52:25 »
Lolwhat?  The commander will chew you out a hell of a lot harder if you just lost a nearly irreplaceable (assuming 3025) Warhammer due to not dumping the MG ammo when the torso armor started getting breached.

I assume the prior comment was more directed to those who dump their ammo at the start of the fight before a shot is even fired.
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Kidd

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #63 on: 17 October 2018, 20:56:28 »
So what draws the line between a nice pizza Napolitana and a double extra cheese with cheese?

AC + Tarcomp variants might be considered cheesy too thanks to precision ammo.

Crimson Dawn

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #64 on: 17 October 2018, 20:58:37 »
Actually I would think a commander would be mad if you just dumped ammo for seemingly no reason however there is nothing really stopping you from telling your tech just to not load the ammo you do not want in the first place. Then you never need to worry in the first place and you can save that ammo for a unit that really needs it.

Caedis Animus

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #65 on: 17 October 2018, 20:59:08 »
So what draws the line between a nice pizza Napolitana and a double extra cheese with cheese?

AC + Tarcomp variants might be considered cheesy too thanks to precision ammo.
I'd say that one really depends on the Autocannon, weight class/mounting unit, and target.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #66 on: 17 October 2018, 21:23:59 »
So what draws the line between a nice pizza Napolitana and a double extra cheese with cheese?

AC + Tarcomp variants might be considered cheesy too thanks to precision ammo.

Not really.  Standard autocannons are pretty weak weapons and the fact that Precision rounds only have half the normal number of shots per ton really means that it's hard to consider them cheesy.  Especially with how heavy autocannons are combined with the added mass of the TC.

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Mattlov

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #67 on: 17 October 2018, 23:28:25 »
I'm going to put the Preta Dominus in this category.  It is the most perfectly designed MONSTROUS ANNOYANCE ever.
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ItsTehPope

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #68 on: 18 October 2018, 00:26:52 »
I'll throw in the Stooping Hawk F.
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Nastyogre

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #69 on: 18 October 2018, 00:38:08 »
I assume the prior comment was more directed to those who dump their ammo at the start of the fight before a shot is even fired.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #70 on: 18 October 2018, 01:57:16 »
Okay, that makes more sense, though I think that primarily only happens in games where the GM won't let someone start with no MG ammo loaded- at that point, yes, I would dump the ammo first thing but that doesn't accurately represent what would be happening in-universe.

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Nastyogre

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #71 on: 18 October 2018, 16:04:06 »
Along the same lines, as a GM, I wouldn't let you not load ammo. If you want a mech without ammo, take one without ammo. Saying "I like the Battlemaster but it's a bit of a walking bomb, so I'm not going to load the MG ammo and only half the SRM 6 ammo" is a little silly, in my opinion. Gamewise, sure it's a smart thing. The game is as much about the Hit tables, mods and 2d6 as it is about the story, history, flavor etc, of the Universe.

If it were just that simple as making unit better, the Shadow Hawk K has 17 heat sinks and can at max generate 15 heat (barring engine hits) so why not say that "We play that all owners of Shad-K's realize this is pretty dumb and they load 2 Medium lasers on it because the PPC and LRM 5 aren't going to fire most of the time when the ML's do." You can do anything you like in the game, but it's going to start moving away from what we can jointly call Battletech.

 As a GM, I'd cure ammo dumping by discouraging this sort of munchkinism. Indeed, dumping ammo is the definition of munchkinism. Ignoring the fanciful reality of the game world and engaging in behavior that would be counter productive or at least counter-intuititve if the game were "real."

"But my Quickddraw with a rear mounted SRM 4 is stupid."

"Sure it is. But you lost your Warhammer because you wanted to Alpha strike 3 turns in a row in the last game. This is what your Regimental commander could spare. Next time play smarter."

If you want to be sneaky, setup 20 stands of infantry hidden on the board and make the Battlemaster wish for that ammo back.

 

nckestrel

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #72 on: 18 October 2018, 16:23:24 »
I think it's more silly to require ammo reloading.
Player1: "I don't want to load my machine gun ammo."
GM: "You have to!"
Player2: "oops, we didn't buy any LRM ammo."
GM: "Ha, you can't use your LRMs!"
Player1: "We could sell my machine gun ammo and buy some LRM ammo?"
GM: "No, you just don't want to load machine gun ammo!"
Player1: "Yeah. Reality morphs its rules to only apply when it screws me over?"
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SteelRaven

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #73 on: 18 October 2018, 16:25:43 »
"Sure it is. But you lost your Warhammer because you wanted to Alpha strike 3 turns in a row in the last game.
Wait, did someone really do this?

If you want to be sneaky, setup 20 stands of infantry hidden on the board and make the Battlemaster wish for that ammo back.
... Zerg rush? Is that really any less cheap than dumping ammo?
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Sartris

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #74 on: 18 October 2018, 16:41:30 »
if i live in a universe where an exploding ton of machine gun ammo is one of the most potent weapons known to man, but only when it explodes inside my giant walking robot powered by an impossible fusion engine, i reserve the right to poop it on the ground at the time of my choosing

Empyrus

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #75 on: 18 October 2018, 16:42:50 »
There should be a rule that allows dumping MG ammo as timed explosive or mine.

Sartris

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #76 on: 18 October 2018, 16:57:43 »
hitting a mech dumping ammo from behind causes a full-blown ammo explosion. it should probably act as a hazard just kind of lying there, yeah

Colt Ward

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #77 on: 18 October 2018, 17:32:14 »
hitting a mech dumping ammo from behind causes a full-blown ammo explosion. it should probably act as a hazard just kind of lying there, yeah

Like a improvised mine?
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Sartris

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #78 on: 18 October 2018, 17:38:34 »
yeah your big plodding mech fails a psr or something and accidentally kicks a shell causing a chain reaction. they couldn't be better than actual mines but still mess up a leg on an unlucky roll

House Davie Merc

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #79 on: 18 October 2018, 21:12:38 »
Ah yes. The standard 3025 Davion line up. Seriously 8 of the 14 are Davion or FedCom refits. There is a reason for the reputation 😉


YEAH !  I get to roll on the Davion RAT  for my lance !

Look at all those cool mechs ,especially those heavies ! ( Drools )

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?????

As for the OPs point - I would argue that in the earlier eras the Wolverine WVR-6M
belongs on the munchkin list .  If you're balancing by tonnage just about  every
merc unit suddenly seems to have one .



Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #80 on: 18 October 2018, 21:55:18 »
I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.

Nastyogre

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #81 on: 18 October 2018, 23:15:48 »
I think it's more silly to require ammo reloading.
Player1: "I don't want to load my machine gun ammo."
GM: "You have to!"
Player2: "oops, we didn't buy any LRM ammo."
GM: "Ha, you can't use your LRMs!"
Player1: "We could sell my machine gun ammo and buy some LRM ammo?"
GM: "No, you just don't want to load machine gun ammo!"
Player1: "Yeah. Reality morphs its rules to only apply when it screws me over?"

It's not "You have to"

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Wait, did someone really do this?
... Zerg rush? Is that really any less cheap than dumping ammo?

One is just muchkining or metagaming in a way a mechwarrior wouldn't do. The other is putting the player in a position to exploit their exploitation. You've never said to players or opponents (whether openly or to yourself) "OK, if you are gonna be foolish, it's gonna bite you in the butt"



Nastyogre

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #82 on: 18 October 2018, 23:17:44 »
I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.

Isn't there a Kraken with 8 Ultra AC 2's? That seems sort of fishing for TAC crits and headshots. Granted, it's slow as molasses but that's just terrible.

Caedis Animus

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #83 on: 18 October 2018, 23:37:07 »
I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.
Uh... Urbanmechs are pretty small, one might even say munchkin-sized. And it has a big cannon.
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Elmoth

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #84 on: 19 October 2018, 04:28:26 »
Indeed! Urbanmech
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Skyth

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #85 on: 19 October 2018, 04:40:18 »
Hellstar is kind of the gold standard. I'd add the Turkina A. The Viper / Black Python. Mad Cat A. Pillager 4Z

I disagree on the Black Python.  One of my favorite mechs, but no where is it anywhere close to optimized. 

Greatclub

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #86 on: 19 October 2018, 04:57:25 »
Viper is a highly mobile pulse boat with a TC. While it could easily be optimized a bit more (Dump the mess of smaller PL for another large) it's still a little munchy. You'll note that the publishers subsequently pretty much stopped building mechs like that.

00000

Urbanmech AIV. Dead cheap arrow launcher. And you can afford to dump the stats further for more savings, usually.

Kidd

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #87 on: 19 October 2018, 06:34:06 »
I think when you carry Pulse + TC, you're gonna be tagged with "munch" no matter what... unless you have, like, JagerMech level armour values

or that's IS Pulse + TC...

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #88 on: 19 October 2018, 08:32:47 »
Isn't there a Kraken with 8 Ultra AC 2's? That seems sort of fishing for TAC crits and headshots. Granted, it's slow as molasses but that's just terrible.

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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: What are the cannon munckin machines?
« Reply #89 on: 19 October 2018, 09:18:14 »
Hyper-specialized isn't the same thing as munchkin anyway. 

A Hunchback IIC ain't a munchkin's mech.

A Hellstar is a munchkin's meck. There's a huge difference, and it ain't the tonnage (but the tonnage does factor in a bit...)

 

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