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Author Topic: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?  (Read 2474 times)

beachhead1985

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Gotta say I am very let down.

I backed this kickstarter and I just can't hold it in anymore. I am disappointed with everything but the graphics.

Full disclosure; I thought the title was literal. I did look into it and I was expecting basically studio-supported MegaMek, with MWO art. Not turn-based MWO.

I played the beta, installed the full game and messed with it a bit. It's okay. But no Battletech. It's been "Game-Balanced" all to hell; weapons tweaked, ranges messed-with and I hate the hardpoint system. That last one was the final straw.

All in all, it's been an expensive way to pick up some new canon fiction.

I'm not really looking to fight about this, but I just wonder if anyone else felt the same way.


Thanks for your time and I hope this doesn't bother anyone who enjoys the game.
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These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
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Euphonium

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #1 on: 13 November 2018, 19:46:53 »
My disclosure: I back the kickstarter and played ~80 hours of the beta and close to 350 hours of the final game

I think I'm pretty much the opposite of you, I like most of the game but feel let down by some of the graphics!

I don't know if I looked at different promotional material, but I was never expecting "official megamek" or an exact port of the tabletop rules, and would have been quite disappointed if that was what HBS had delivered.

I agree they've tweaked some things too much, and after I've finished my current playthrough I plan on either learning how to mess with json files or looking for an existing mod to change ranges, damage, and heat (and armour if possible) to match tabletop more closely.

I'm not bothered by you having a different opinion to me, only sorry that you don't enjoy it, and I hope you can find a mod or future game that will be close to what you want from it.
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

Daryk

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #2 on: 13 November 2018, 20:18:25 »
I was never quiet about my disappointment, but enjoyed the game for what it is.  And that is NOT table top Battletech.  They cranked up the graphics requirements through development, meaning my machine could barely run the base game when it came out, and couldn't hack the patch at all (the maps went all to solid pink).

Icerose20

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #3 on: 13 November 2018, 22:02:01 »
We have no problem with your stance.  We would like you to go with the nice people from Comstar to properly
catalog your problems with the game and find an amicable solution.

:)

Anyways......

Rather you hate it, and give reasoned details about your displeasure then how some are 
(they have dropcollars on a dropship that allow daiseychaining.  BURN..  Canopian woman are not in bikinis and loincloths.  NOOOOOOOOO.)

Caedis Animus

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #4 on: 13 November 2018, 23:16:38 »
Having gotten into Battletech extremely late, as in roughly a 15 year old (I got interested in the franchise through Mechassault 2. I'm 21 now.), my perspective's always seemed a tad different regarding battletech on the tabletop and in the games.

Truth be told-as much as I love playing CBT, HBS Battletech kind of hits all the marks I wanted in a Tabletop game, especially because it fixed or change the 'Meta' from the tabletop that got so stale. It's a simplified format without being too simplified, and makes it easy to pick up and play if you've been gone from it for a while, with no real guesswork. But I can see why people don't like it-it wasn't what you were expecting. I mean, they never *said* it was ever going to be a 1-1 rendition of Tabletop battletech, and frankly, I would have been a LOT less interested in it if it was. (Especially the hardpoint situation-seriously, I don't see how spamming medium lasers and crushing the opposition through META is fun.)
« Last Edit: 13 November 2018, 23:22:53 by Caedis Animus »
I prefer the term "Aggressive remodeling".

Empyrus

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #5 on: 14 November 2018, 04:44:01 »
I'm not entirely happy with the game, they managed to keep so many bad things about earlier BT video games, such as weight-class progression (lights and mediums are useless later on) and "ubermercs", and focus on lance-level game is serious mistake because it just increases focus on heavier units even more so than fixing weight class roles and imbalances.
And simplifying 'Mech internals was stupid, keeping track of everything on tabletop is a bit annoying and takes time, but a computer would have no problem with that.

Still, it works OK, i hope they fix the issues with sequels but frankly i'm not terribly hopeful about that, very few video game developers ever seem to make truly improved sequels.


I'll note that the original Kickstarter was very explicit about the game not being direct tabletop to PC conversion, like Megamek. So expecting that was just not reading things thoroughly.

Daryk

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #6 on: 14 November 2018, 05:29:43 »
I may not have read things thoroughly, but switching from simultaneous fire to shoot and move in order was a fundamental change that makes it a completely different game.

Nightlord01

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #7 on: 14 November 2018, 08:24:47 »
I may not have read things thoroughly, but switching from simultaneous fire to shoot and move in order was a fundamental change that makes it a completely different game.

This is certainly true, I've found that in TT I always wanted to move last, and have actually gotten quite sore at one of my old gaming buddies because he used to bring a bunch of insignificant units to field so he could soak lost initiative. One the whole, while I would agree with most people distaste for the game, I find that what I like about it outweighs what I don't like about it, and overall I find the feel of the game to be a very close approximation for the BT game. Mind you, I find that the game suffers somewhat in the replayability department, I simply can't be bothered completing my second storyline playthrough, even though it's far more successful than my first.

While my continued support for the franchise is far from secured, I'm not a big fan of the way Paradox markets games, I still like it, I'm just not going to be jumping on anymore pre-orders and will likely just buy expansions when they go on sale.

monbvol

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #8 on: 15 November 2018, 00:20:26 »
Yeah I can't say I'm overly impressed by the game either.

The screwed up part is every issue I have with it save two is exactly the same as I have with table top.

Without BV there is precious little reason to take light or medium mechs, especially since I'm almost always outnumbered two to one.

The only thing keeping ACs relevant is I do know how to edit the json files(just a simple text editor will do it) and the hard point system.

The short equipment list makes for boring refits that is only modestly offset by the enhanced weapons.

Replay value is also really poor.  To the point I'm having to force myself to even complete the campaign once because each mission is exactly the same.

Colt Ward

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #9 on: 28 November 2018, 11:46:01 »
The new DLC is supposed to bring on missions where speed is more important than firepower, thus encouraging Spiders, Jenners & Cicadas- maybe Firestarters and 5/8/5 machines.  I have not played with that yet still recovering from holiday travel and catching up with work.

I went back to play through and limit myself to meds & heavies- right now I go in with a Orion, Black Knight or Catapult, Kintaro, Firestarter, and one of the heavies or a Wolverine.  I do not intend to use any assaults except the Highlander we are given and the eventual Atlas II.

If they fixed the reinforcement problem, then I can see certain missions where you can get in with meds & lights to blow some buildings or kill something and run away to evac.
Colt Ward

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Kojak

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #10 on: 30 November 2018, 04:06:31 »
I'm unhappy with it only because it crashes upon launch when I try to play it on my laptop, and I'd like to actually play the game I got.
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Stormforge

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #11 on: 30 November 2018, 04:24:04 »
The new DLC is supposed to bring on missions where speed is more important than firepower, thus encouraging Spiders, Jenners & Cicadas- maybe Firestarters and 5/8/5 machines.  I have not played with that yet still recovering from holiday travel and catching up with work.

I went back to play through and limit myself to meds & heavies- right now I go in with a Orion, Black Knight or Catapult, Kintaro, Firestarter, and one of the heavies or a Wolverine.  I do not intend to use any assaults except the Highlander we are given and the eventual Atlas II.

If they fixed the reinforcement problem, then I can see certain missions where you can get in with meds & lights to blow some buildings or kill something and run away to evac.

I knew from day one with the ability to strip Evasion (movement modifiers) that this game was going to be another race to the heaviest mechs.

I have also been a huge opponent of the View Distance combined with their Initiative System unnecessarily gimping long ranged mechs. I had to laugh at the recent King Crab challenge. I knew since beta that any 2 faster lighter mechs would always beat a heavier single mech no matter the tonnage used. All it takes is patience. Reserve until the heavier mech's turn. If you get to move after them then attack, then the next turn hide. If not just hide a single mech that turn, attack with the other after they move, or hold until you get a less risky shot. The heavier mech will never get a shot off. This is especially bad for assaults.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2018, 04:26:51 by Stormforge »
If the enemy is in range most likely so are you.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #12 on: 30 November 2018, 04:33:34 »
I have eighteen slots for Mechs at full capacity and unlimited pilot berths (?) and I can only ever drop four at a time. Not two Lances like MW4, not a Company of twelve like what I'm facing, and the minute I show up in heavies enemies have full heavy companies and the same for assaults.

 Oh and besides the replay value for all missions being the same (it is a MMO stylish game after all can't go too crazy with a bajillion different unique missions) the fact that if I want to play with someone else it's always counter op never co-op.... every game should have co-op especially one with big stompy robots and lasers.

I don't mind the game (yes I may have stopped playing for a month or two) but some things just irk me.

IAMCLANWOLF

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #13 on: 03 December 2018, 13:04:19 »
I must be playing a different game... It's not perfect, and I have been disappointed in a few things, here and there. However, I can't stop playing. I absolutely love the core game. 

MarauderD

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #14 on: 03 December 2018, 13:28:22 »
I must be playing a different game... It's not perfect, and I have been disappointed in a few things, here and there. However, I can't stop playing. I absolutely love the core game.

I feel the same, love the core game, and I'm enjoying the expansion.

In addition, some of the complaints in this thread are dealt with my the modding community.

Need evasion chevrons to not get peeled off by enemy fire?  Permanent Evasion is the mod you're looking for.
Need more of a challenge?  Better AI is the mod you're looking for.
Need the Unseen?  Hangar of the Dispossessed is the cat's meow.

All of these mods take about 5 minutes tops to install, and are easy peasy to uninstall as well.

Really digging Battletech.  Just got my first Hatchetman, can't wait to cleave someone in two!

NickAragua

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #15 on: 03 December 2018, 14:08:48 »
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as IAMCLANWOLF and MarauderD.

Between JK_Variants, Hangar of the Dispossessed, Assassin and Annihilator mods, I've got a crap-ton of new mech chassis and variants, while JK_Variants and Vehicle Improvement Project provide plenty of new tanks to stomp. I've seen a lot of Phoenix Hawks and a few Assassins so far.

I've also got Mission Control set up to occasionally spawn an extra allied or hostile lance (or both) to add a little extra random factor to the procedural missions. But even without it, I'm having fun.

Stormforge

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #16 on: 04 December 2018, 04:21:16 »
I'd have to agree that modding has made the game better. The things I mentioned were the only things that really bothered me, and have since modded them out. The rest of the game I have enjoyed greatly so I definitely feel I received my moneys worth.

I am running my own TT balancing (limited to .json edits) making it as close as possible with a few tweaks here and there to things like machine guns (2 damage x 5) and flamers (10 damage/6 heat damage). All while keeping some of the HBS weapons flavoring. (PPCs, Increased AC damage, etc)

Sight distance is at 500. A mix of TT, and not being giving the enemy a free shot on spawn during contracts. 90 max heat with a .17 overheat threshold to equal the 5 TT heat (15 HBS heat), TT weapon stats including short/extended ranges (borrowing roguetech energy weapon stability damages), 15 experimental move grid distance with TT mech/vehicle move distances and moved distance modifiers. Each TT +1 modifier is now HBS +2 or 10%, 120 for firing arc (actually seems pretty closer to 240 degrees), some small tweaks to some heavier/massive upgrades, and some TT-ish terrain modifications. It is a tweak in-progress as I play.

I am using the following since 1.3. Wanted Pilot Quirks, but am having trouble getting the latest update working. Couldn't get the Random Start that comes with it or its separate version working either. Just picking my own starting mechs and keeping the same pilots. Go figure the mech in my avatar is my starting mech.  :thumbsup:

CBT Heat
CBT Piloting
CBT Movement
Stabile Piloting
Charles B
Melee Mover
AIM
Pilot Panic
Pilot Fatigue
Merc Deployments
Monthly Tech and Morale Adjustment
Pansar
BD Annihilator and Assassin
HotD Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, Warhammer
JK Variants
Vehicle Improvement Project (Hovers changed from using tracked to wheeled movement type due to modding of some terrain features to exclude certain movement types, i.e. Wheeled/hover can no longer enter forest, but tracked can. Tracked cannot enter water, but currently limited to letting wheeled enter as hover is tied to it.)

Oh and the Contracts and Behavior Variables from Brutal Roguetech transplanted into my game. Roguetech lances didn't make the cut as all the mediums I faced were Cicada 2A/2Bs or Vindicator "Avenging Angels". Took a peek at a few, but didn't dig too deep. Tags I did see lined up, but need to investigate more. Was thinking about transplanting Mech Engineer too, but I like the limited nature of the vanilla refit system especially with the JK Variants Jump Jet limitations put on mechs.

Roguetech, while enjoyable and worth playing, goes a bit beyond what I am looking for. Now if they would do something 3025-3050...

Have not played any Flashpoints yet as I started a new game seeing which mods are working.
« Last Edit: 04 December 2018, 09:13:51 by Stormforge »
If the enemy is in range most likely so are you.

beachhead1985

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #17 on: 04 December 2018, 10:59:24 »
I don't really *get* technology, but is it weird that it's been X-years since games like MW4 and Mech Commander and we're still so limited in the size of the forces we can bring out and we're still facing *waves* of enemies on every mission?

Even if I was otherwise happy with the game as-is; I'd have sacrificed a lot of the chrome to be able to field a company-ish.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

MoleMan

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #18 on: 04 December 2018, 15:53:38 »
Games would take hours in that situation, and put off a lot of potential customers, that's why they did it.

NickAragua

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #19 on: 04 December 2018, 16:11:17 »
I don't really *get* technology, but is it weird that it's been X-years since games like MW4 and Mech Commander and we're still so limited in the size of the forces we can bring out and we're still facing *waves* of enemies on every mission?

Even if I was otherwise happy with the game as-is; I'd have sacrificed a lot of the chrome to be able to field a company-ish.

Moleman's got it right, I think. It's not a technology issue, it's a usability issue. I've been using the Mission Control mod, which spawns extra lances. Before tweaking it to tone it down a little, I could wind up with a 16 on 8 match pretty easily (2 base game mission lances, 2 mission control spawned lances, 1 allied lance and my guys). A battle like that takes forever and there's not enough room on those maps to spawn that many guys anyway, half the time they spawn right on top of my lance.

One could solve that problem by making the maps bigger, but it'd still take a long time to finish.

The other problem with company-level fights is that you *will* lose mechs. Doesn't matter how many evasion pips a mech has or how bulwarked-in-forest it is. When sixteen mechs focus their fire on one, it's going down.

Colt Ward

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #20 on: 04 December 2018, 16:18:52 »
Honestly, we are probably the exception where we do not want it to get bogged down with assaults either- which is where increasing the number of command slots matters.  Its why having a drop weight like in MC encouraged you to spread it out . . . or drop the Timberwolf you salvaged early.
Colt Ward

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Stormforge

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #21 on: 05 December 2018, 02:28:02 »
Honestly, we are probably the exception where we do not want it to get bogged down with assaults either- which is where increasing the number of command slots matters.  Its why having a drop weight like in MC encouraged you to spread it out . . . or drop the Timberwolf you salvaged early.

Have to say that is something I liked about Roguetech. I never felt compelled to get a heavier lance. Once I had an all medium 5/8/5+ lance that I liked fully upgraded with what I had salvaged suited me just fine. I knew I wouldn't be able to tackle some of the more difficult missions, but I was doing up to 3 and half skull missions. I did try a 4 skull. A company of 2 light mechs, 1 medium mech, and the rest heavies and assaults was my limit.  xp
If the enemy is in range most likely so are you.

abou

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #22 on: 10 December 2018, 01:29:16 »
I was hoping Flashpoint would make me more interested in the game. I have certainly played it a lot, but after the initial excitement of Career mode, within two Flashpoint missions I'm already disappointed in the game again. The game pushes you into heavier lances still despite some missions having the max tonnage limits. I do think the Hatchetman is a lot of fun and the dynamics the Cyclops brings is cool... but overall I'm just not that happy. And that is despite me actually enjoying the main story line and the neat missions that had.

There are a lot of gripes I have about flow, repetition, and the need for the same tactics. I wish the game had a greater variety of vehicles to fight (easy assets to 3D model and barely any need for animation). I also wish the game had a larger variety of light and medium 'mechs (art assets currently available and easy to port). But what is most telling is what happens when you move away from the core BattleTech audience and the echo chamber of  the Facebook groups.

Check out the achievements. I don't know if what I see is the total amount or only if it is the info for what GOG has and not including other platforms such as Steam, but it is pretty shocking. Only 70.9% of people who bought the game even created a character to start the campaign. Even worse, only 19.9% finished the story line. That's a pretty stark drop off. Only 53% made it to the Argo. And then the next event at Weldry there is only a 47.5% rate.

So by less than half way through the story of the core game, less than half the people who bought the game decided to continue that far. And less than a third of the people who even bothered to start a campaign finished the game. Ouch.
« Last Edit: 10 December 2018, 01:34:12 by abou »

Caedis Animus

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #23 on: 10 December 2018, 02:07:12 »
So by less than half way through the story of the core game, less than half the people who bought the game decided to continue that far. And less than a third of the people who even bothered to start a campaign finished the game. Ouch.
I don't think that's much of a merit on how good or bad the game is. Mods that get rid of the campaign and add freeroam are pretty popular-I mean, hell, look at Roguetech. And a number of people were adamant about how this 'wasn't the game they wanted' for various reasons (The 'They' debacle, It not being a 1-1 port of tabletop like Megamech, etc. etc.) And quit and either uninstalled or refunded. And third, people may've just bought it for the multiplayer, or simply never connected to steam online again after installing.
I prefer the term "Aggressive remodeling".

abou

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #24 on: 10 December 2018, 10:17:01 »
How would you return a digital purchase?

I would feel pretty bad if a game with several proposed expansions only had a 20% success rate to finish the core game. And I don't know of many playing online. I never have and I don't find the gameplay compelling enough to do so.

I admit this is just conjecture because we don't have the total numbers in front of us. And I doubt HBS will release them.

NickAragua

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #25 on: 10 December 2018, 11:30:13 »
I'd say 20% finish rate is pretty good. A lot of games don't even get that much.

The lack of tank variety can be addressed by the "JK Variants" and "Vehicle Improvement Project" mods, which introduce a lot of tank variants and even some hovercraft. In the base game, if you see a vehicle that weighs X tons on sensors, you know exactly what it will be. With those mods, you have no idea.

Colt Ward

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #26 on: 10 December 2018, 14:44:41 »
Also remember that you can run the game in a mode that does not allow saves to back up- you can go bust after all!
Colt Ward

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Daryk

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #27 on: 10 December 2018, 18:26:54 »
60 tons on the radar can mean a couple of different things... VERY different things...

Colt Ward

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #28 on: 10 December 2018, 18:40:12 »
Manticore, LRM Launcher or SRM Launcher . . . generally all bad news depending on how close (or far) they are from you.
Colt Ward

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Daryk

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Re: Comiseration with *that* guy. Anyone else unhappy with HBS BT?
« Reply #29 on: 10 December 2018, 18:43:30 »
Exactly, and guessing wrong at close range can be fatal...