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Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 85537 times)

DoctorMonkey

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1140 on: 10 August 2019, 18:03:44 »
Does anyone know why darling class destroyer seem to be I don't know under arm for what they are. It's supposed to be like the large combatant of the British Navy and yet it only has limited amount of weapons in comparison to say an Aegis Destroyer. I know there's economic difference between the two countries that employ different weapon systems but still it seems a bit under-armed.


What do you mean?


The Type 45s have 48 first class SAMs, some SSMs, a solid medium gun and CIWS plus carry one or two ASW submarines


They also have only about 2/3 the crew requirements of an Arleigh Burke. I think the RN could do with a few more good quality escorts but, apart from the embarrassing problem with their engines, they seem pretty good ships.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1141 on: 10 August 2019, 18:05:24 »
48 SAMs?  That will only last so long in today's ASCM environment...

DoctorMonkey

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1142 on: 10 August 2019, 18:11:11 »
48 SAMs?  That will only last so long in today's ASCM environment...


About half as long as an Arleigh Burke will last. If someone really really wants to shoot you and is prepared to lose that large a chunk of assets then you are probably sunk. I would expect two to escort any RN high value assets into any really high risk areas.


The NATO line is that the Type 45s complement the Arleigh Burkes as their radars have a different strength to the AEGIS system.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1143 on: 10 August 2019, 18:14:07 »
Half as long as an Arleigh Burke is no more than half as long as necessary...  That's what the high end adversary is designing against...

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1144 on: 10 August 2019, 18:14:33 »
Economic differences. The Darings have space for another 16 VLS tubes but never found the money, nor really the urgent need to put them on... just think, why would they need the additional tubes? Burkes need to set aside tubes for Tomahawks and ASROC; but the British don't use them. Sure another 16 Aster is nice to have, but not critically urgent... not in the big scheme of things...

Type 23 frigate HMS Monmouth, lately in the news quite a bit. The Type 23s have evolved from the ASW specialists of the Royal Navy to become the workhorses of the fleet... and they are pretty I think. Cold War design aesthetics.



About half as long as an Arleigh Burke will last.
The Burkes carry about 60-70 SAMs, the rest of the tubes typically go to other missions. So not half, not exactly.

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1145 on: 10 August 2019, 18:16:47 »
The problems with the Type 45 was a cost thing. They were going to have a 1 to 1 replacement for the Type 23s but the ships just kept going up and up in price. The Type 45 VLS is not large enough for TLAM missiles.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1146 on: 10 August 2019, 18:43:07 »
They were going to have a 1 to 1 replacement for the Type 23s but the ships just kept going up and up in price.
Type 42, not Type 23. 13 The Type 23 are planned to be replaced by 8 Type 26 and 5 Type 31e.

The Type 45 VLS is not large enough for TLAM missiles.
It's not compatible to Tomahawk in the first place. The Type 45 carries French Sylver A50 VLS systems. Which are too short for Scalp Naval as the designated cruise missile for the system.


Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1147 on: 10 August 2019, 19:03:14 »

The Type 45 carries French Sylver A50 VLS systems. Which are too short for Scalp Naval as the designated cruise missile for the system.

The 16 additional Sylver tubes not installed would have been long enough, "strike length" as the Brits call it.

I don't know, but if (IF) the Brits had chosen the Tomahawk, maybe they could fit Mk 41 VLS in the same space.

Ghost0402

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1148 on: 10 August 2019, 19:09:42 »
Seems to be an upsized frigate that came out of a multinational frigate study/design of the 90's.  The reasoning was listed as something larger and more capable but the 45's seem to fall in line with other modern frigates while the Burkes stand alone.  Granted, a large part of that is fleet air defense for the Burkes, but you would think the modular nature of VLS would push you to more tubes for greater flexibility.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1149 on: 10 August 2019, 20:36:50 »
The new Type 26 FFG that will be working soon has purpose built for 24 TLAMS and 48 of the smaller AAMs like the Type 23 FFG has. The newer built Aqutaine FFG have the strike length A70 launchers for the SCALP missiles. I think a couple of missiles were used in combat from the ships.
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1150 on: 10 August 2019, 23:27:40 »
Type 42, not Type 23. 13 The Type 23 are planned to be replaced by 8 Type 26 and 5 Type 31e.
Due to economic uncertainty, the Shipyard in Northern Ireland, famed making HMS Titanic closed it doors by it's parent company It was suppose to build the Type 31e Light Frigates.


This is what its suppose to have looked like. Its not impossible for the ships to be made, but economic wreck the Britain is facing may prematurely cancel the ships.
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1151 on: 11 August 2019, 00:05:33 »
Seems to be an upsized frigate that came out of a multinational frigate study/design of the 90's.  The reasoning was listed as something larger and more capable but the 45's seem to fall in line with other modern frigates while the Burkes stand alone.  Granted, a large part of that is fleet air defense for the Burkes, but you would think the modular nature of VLS would push you to more tubes for greater flexibility.

The ROKN Sejong the Great and the JMSDF Kongo/Atago/Maya are comparable, although I guess they're kinda related to the Burkes

The Type 45's size and VLS capability is fairly similar to the PLAN's Type 052D

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1152 on: 11 August 2019, 01:18:57 »
Due to economic uncertainty, the Shipyard in Northern Ireland, famed making HMS Titanic closed it doors by it's parent company It was suppose to build the Type 31e Light Frigates.


This is what its suppose to have looked like. Its not impossible for the ships to be made, but economic wreck the Britain is facing may prematurely cancel the ships.
Not at all.

There are three competing designs for the Type 31 frigates. The Royal Navy hasn't decided which design to build yet.

That picture is the Arrowhead 140 proposed by Babcock to be built at Rosyth.

Harlan and Wolff was going to be the client shipyard for building a MEKO 200 version.

The first round of proposals was, in short, rejected by the RN as not adequately fulfilling requirements. The second round is ongoing, and there's a possibility the RN might increase the budget.

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1153 on: 11 August 2019, 08:41:55 »
One thing can be said, South Koreans have kept up with Jones and are soldiering on with their sea frames (ships) and haven't been stuck in the past like US Navy has.

Here their latest small combatant, Daegu-class frigates.   This is part of their FFX II program, Inchon-Class was FFX I.   

She armed with 5-inch gun, 16 cell Korean version of the VLS, holds short-range Anti-aircraft/missiles, while having deeper "Strike" cells for Land-Attack missiles.
Her anti-ship missiles are mounted midships, 4 cell of SSM-700K Haeseong anti-ship missiles which has the range of 150 km (93 miles) and moves a sea skimming heigh above the water under Mach 1.  She has also her own Korean built anti-submarine torpedoes as well, and CIWS.

Well rounded ship at 2,800 tons empty.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1154 on: 11 August 2019, 09:40:44 »
I'm gonna do a series on larger EU27 Offshore Patrol Vessels.



P04 Carlskrona.

Former minelayer and training ship built in 1980 and converted in 2009/10 for patrol duties. Deployed to EUNAVFOR Atalanta (Somalia) in 2010 and 2013.

3150 tons, 106m long, 139 crew.
Armament 2x 40mm gun, in the above picture from 2010 she still carries the 57mm turret since removed.
Helicopter deck without hangar. Considerable spare space for command and medical facilities.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1155 on: 11 August 2019, 09:55:22 »


P840 Holland.
P841 Zeeland.
P842 Friesland.
P843 Groningen.

Four dedicated OPVs commissioned 2012/13. One ship always forward-deployed as "station ship" in Dutch Caribbean possessions. One unit deployed to EU NAVFOR Atalanta in 2015.

3750 tons, 108m long, 54 crew.
Armament 1x76mm gun, 1x 30mm RWS, 2x .50cal RWS.
Helicopter deck with hangar. Slipway for FRISC in stern. Accomodation for additional 40 troops. Extensive sensor outfit with phased-array radar.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1156 on: 11 August 2019, 10:11:20 »



P41 Meteoro.
P42 Rayo.
P43 Relampago.
P44 Tornado.
P45 Audaz.
P46 Furor.

Six dedicated OPVs commissioned in two batches; four in 2012/13, two more in 2018/19. Up to four more units planned. Entire first batch is forward-stationed in the Canary Islands. One unit annually deployed to EU NAVFOR Atalanta since 2012 as mainstay type there.

2670 tons, 94m long, 46 crew.
Armament 1x 76mm gun, 2x 25mm RWS.
Helicopter deck with hangar. Accomodation for additional 30 troops.

Ursus Maior

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1157 on: 11 August 2019, 10:28:45 »
Excellent, keep'em coming. Our ships certainly have a distinct charm.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1158 on: 11 August 2019, 11:21:20 »


F730 Floreal.
F731 Prairial.
F732 Nivose.
F733 Ventose.
F734 Vendemiaire.
F735 Germinal.

Patrol frigates commissioned in 1992-94 for EEZ patrol. Forward-stationed two each in Indian Ocean, Carribean and Pacific Ocean. Units in Indian Ocean join EU NAVFOR Atalanta pretty much annually since 2009.

2600 tons, 94m long, 88 crew
Armament 1x 100mm gun, 2x 20mm guns, 2x Exocet AShM, 2x twin Mistral SAM.
Helicopter deck with hangar. Very high-endurance (sufficient fuel for transfer to Pacific Ocean without refuelling).
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 11:50:47 by kato »

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1159 on: 11 August 2019, 11:33:30 »
The other frigate class among the patrols:



F357 Thetis.
F358 Triton.
F359 Vaedderen.
F360 Hvidbjoernen.

Patrol frigates commissioned in 1991/92 for EEZ patrol. Primarily patrol Greenland and Faeroe EEZ. Occasionally serve in auxiliary roles with NATO, e.g. as command ship for SNMCMG1.

3500 tons, 112m long, 63 crew
Armament 1x 76mm gun, 1x twin Stinger SAM.
Fitted for but not with 8x Harpoon AShM, 12x Seasparrow SAM, 2x triple ASW torpedo tubes.
Helicopter deck with hangar. Ice-reinforced hull. Accomodation for additional 38 troops.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1160 on: 11 August 2019, 11:45:52 »
And the last of the 25 frigate-sized (90-120m length, 2000-4000t) vessels:



P61 Samuel Beckett.
P62 James Joyce.
P63 William Butler Yeats.
P64 George Bernard Shaw.

Dedicated OPVs comissioned in 2014-19. So far only deployed locally, to EU NAVFOR Med.

2250 tons, 90m long, 44 crew.
Armament 1x 76mm gun, 2x 20mm guns.
No helicopter deck. Carry UAV and inspection UUV.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 11:47:29 by kato »

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1161 on: 11 August 2019, 12:16:55 »
Grouping these together a bit:



P76 (F33) Infanta Elena.
P77 (F34) Infanta Cristina.
F487 Joao Roby.
F792 Premier-Maître L'Her.
F793 Commandant Blaison.
F794 Enseigne de vaisseau Jacoubet.
F795 Commandant Ducuing.
F796 Commandant Birot.
F797 Commandant Bouan.

These nine ships are all former corvettes built to the same Blohm+Voss pattern, with all of them rebuilt for (removing heavy armament) and relegated to patrol duties. Original commissioning dates were ca 1975-1984. Despite F designation considered Offshore Patrol Vessels. Being slowly retired within the next 2-3 years. All units deployed to EU NAVFOR Med locally, occasionally to EU NAVFOR Atalanta. Act in escort roles as well due to sensor outfit, in particular for amphibious units.

1250 tons, 81m long, 85-89 crew.
Armament: 1x 100mm gun or 1x 76mm gun (2 units), 1-2x 20mm gun, 4x Harpoon AShM (2 units), 1x twin Mistral SAM (6 units).
No helicopter deck.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 12:19:12 by kato »

Ghost0402

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1162 on: 11 August 2019, 13:40:22 »
The ROKN Sejong the Great and the JMSDF Kongo/Atago/Maya are comparable, although I guess they're kinda related to the Burkes

The Type 45's size and VLS capability is fairly similar to the PLAN's Type 052D
They are based on the Burke but tweaked to fit their needs.  The Burke was floated as an idea for the British due to it being a price stable platform but they wanted their own thing it seems.
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1163 on: 11 August 2019, 13:53:51 »
They are based on the Burke but tweaked to fit their needs.  The Burke was floated as an idea for the British due to it being a price stable platform but they wanted their own thing it seems.
The ROKN Sejong the Great and the JMSDF Kongo/Atago/Maya Classes are generally big enough to be considered to be cruisers. Seems no one want use that designation for some reason.   I was saying Darling-Class were feeling bit..undergunned was they have less VLS tubes than most ships designated as Destroyers.  There was jabbering about adding Strike size Mk41 VLS launchers on them, but i think as usual the budget won't allow it.   Most European ocean going navies that employ guided missile ships have 32 tubes or more.  Unless they Darlings some how reload.

Chinese are commissioning Destroyers, Type 055 which are shouting distance of Ticonderoga-Class CGs  and Flight II Burke Class DDGs.


These pair of Type 055 were commissioned i think nearly same day.  They're in need due to Carriers coming on line needing serious AA escorts.
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"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
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"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1164 on: 11 August 2019, 14:54:29 »



P409 Sirio
P410 Orione
P490 Comandante Cigala Fulgosi
P491 Comandante Borsini
P492 Comandante Bettica
P493 Comandante Foscari

Dedicated OPVs commissioned 2001/02. Last two units modified for anti-pollution service. Have been deployed to EU NAVFOR Atalanta and EU NAVFOR MTF448 repeatedly. Also act as escorts, in particular for amphibious ships, and have participated in SNMG2 with NATO.

1520 tons, 89m long, 70-72 crew
Armament: 1x 76mm gun (4 units, others ffbnw), 2x 25mm guns.
Helicopter deck and telescoping hangar.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1165 on: 11 August 2019, 16:01:38 »
The ROKN Sejong the Great and the JMSDF Kongo/Atago/Maya Classes are generally big enough to be considered to be cruisers. Seems no one want use that designation for some reason.   I was saying Darling-Class were feeling bit..undergunned was they have less VLS tubes than most ships designated as Destroyers.  There was jabbering about adding Strike size Mk41 VLS launchers on them, but i think as usual the budget won't allow it.   Most European ocean going navies that employ guided missile ships have 32 tubes or more.  Unless they Darlings some how reload.

Chinese are commissioning Destroyers, Type 055 which are shouting distance of Ticonderoga-Class CGs  and Flight II Burke Class DDGs.


These pair of Type 055 were commissioned i think nearly same day.  They're in need due to Carriers coming on line needing serious AA escorts.

I think only the first Type 055 has been commissioned. It was a simultaneous launching, but that means they're still in line for systems integration and sea trials before they'll actually be commissioned, so schedule it for another year and change.

As for the Corvette/Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser separation, I'd argue that there hasn't been one since post-WW2. The interwar years saw destroyers grow into general-purpose surface combatants capable of independent operations - probably as a result of the naval treaties restricting the total numbers and aggregate tonnage of cruisers that would have previously taken that role.

Even in the inter-war years, there was some blurring between large destroyers and light cruisers with the French navy in particular pushing the treaty definitions to avoid the cruiser quota.

The French Mogador-class had a standard displacement of about 3000t and a max displacement of 4000t and most of their other ships had a good 20-25% more displacement than the Tribals or Fletcher-class which themselves had a good 20-25% size margin. The Kriegsmarine destroyers split the difference between the French and the Anglos, but the Type 1936A/Z23 class deserves special mention for mounting 15cm (5.9 inch) guns - what would have been considered light cruiser weapons, albeit in smaller number.

Arguably, the key distinction between destroyers and light cruisers in the Washington Naval Treaty era to the start of the guided missile age is armour - even the lightest cruisers had some degree of armour protection.

Meanwhile, for the Royal Navy, the return of the corvette and frigate distinctions were meant for ships built to commercial standards - the frigate being otherwise similar to the RN definition of a 'Sloop' like the Black Swan - a slow, destroyer-sized twin-shaft escort for protecting shipping.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 16:22:22 by chanman »

Ursus Maior

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1166 on: 11 August 2019, 16:14:04 »
@Wrangler
I believe the class is called "Daring" not "Darling.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1167 on: 11 August 2019, 16:18:17 »



P31 Eithne

Dedicated OPV commissioned in 1984. Has deployed to EU NAVFOR Med locally.

1920 tons, 85m long, 85 crew
Armament: 1x 57mm gun, 2x 20mm gun.
Helicopter deck, no hangar. Squadron flagship.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1168 on: 11 August 2019, 16:28:49 »



F556 Chimera

Corvette commissioned in 1991, always tasked with EEZ patrol. Last survivor of class of eight ships, will be retired in 1-2 years.  Have only rarely been used for tasks outside patrol, some units of the class e.g. in the Persian Gulf in 1991.

1280 tons, 87m long, 120 crew
Armament: 1x 76mm gun, 8x Aspide SAM, 2x triple ASW torpedo tubes.
No helicopter deck.

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1169 on: 11 August 2019, 16:32:11 »
@kato: loving the OPV series, do please continue.

The Holland-class OPVs are my favourite, so beautiful.


I was saying Darling-Class were feeling bit..undergunned was they have less VLS tubes than most ships designated as Destroyers.  There was jabbering about adding Strike size Mk41 VLS launchers on them, but i think as usual the budget won't allow it.   Most European ocean going navies that employ guided missile ships have 32 tubes or more.

Darings have 48 VLS tubes, same as most every other European AAW ship, and the Australian Hobarts.

Ships using Mk.41 VLS can quad-pack the ESSM, but for missile defence, Aster has certain advantages... on paper.

 

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