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Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 68827 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1290 on: 26 August 2019, 01:10:06 »
A question I had today: does anyone still use torpedoes on surface vessels anymore?  Or do only subs carry them?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1291 on: 26 August 2019, 02:02:22 »
A question I had today: does anyone still use torpedoes on surface vessels anymore?  Or do only subs carry them?

It's fairly common for them to carry a few light ASW torpedoes (the kind you'd drop from a helo) in concealed tubes, even if they already carry ASROC or ASROC-like weapons. The British Type 45 and Chinese Type 052 and 055 don't, but for most ships, it seems like part of the default armaments fit like the 3/5 inch gun.

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1292 on: 26 August 2019, 02:50:49 »
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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1293 on: 26 August 2019, 07:47:45 »
The last US Battleship in the drydock.
Nice photo.
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1294 on: 26 August 2019, 07:55:12 »
A question I had today: does anyone still use torpedoes on surface vessels anymore?  Or do only subs carry them?
Like chanman said their used as anti sub weapons on surface ships. However there more also being use as anti-torpedo waspons aboard us aircraft carriers. Aircraft also use them from. From helios to maritime patrol aircraft such as P-8 Poseidon .
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1295 on: 26 August 2019, 10:35:23 »
I think the question was more in the line of 'In the 20s-40s Destroyers and some Cruisers mounted anti-ship torpedoes to hit battleships, no modern designs do the same thing.'
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1296 on: 26 August 2019, 11:06:33 »
A question I had today: does anyone still use torpedoes on surface vessels anymore?  Or do only subs carry them?
Only small (324mm/12.8") diameter ASW torpedoes. It was planned to fit MK 48 heavy weight torpedoes to some CGN's in the 1970s, but a heavy torpedo wasn't worth it. I suspect it was range limitations and issues with wire guided weapons and maneuver. The other question is what's the role for a heavy ASW torpedo for a surface ship? Long range ASW persecution is carried out by onboard helicopters in most navies, or missiles carrying torpedoes like the VLASROC (RUM-139). Surface launched torpedoes are a last ditch system, as if the ship is in range, the submarine is as well.

The heavy ship-killing punch has become cruise missiles, like this IAI Gabriel. They are faster and longer ranged than a torpedo.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1297 on: 26 August 2019, 12:00:19 »
Yeah, functionally they do nearly the same things- technology just took the warhead out of skimming along the water to flying above it.  Basically, the Russian . . . Osa?  the small one shot ASM boats were the functional descendants of the old PT Boats.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1298 on: 26 August 2019, 12:02:25 »
Like chanman said their used as anti sub weapons on surface ships. However there more also being use as anti-torpedo waspons aboard us aircraft carriers. Aircraft also use them from. From helios to maritime patrol aircraft such as P-8 Poseidon .

A torpedo to attack a torpedo. Neat idea.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1299 on: 26 August 2019, 18:44:33 »
Specifically it's the Mk 32 Surface Vessel Torpedo Tubes, a three-tube launcher tucked into the sides of pretty much everything we have.  Burkes have them just aft of midships, for example; they've usually got a heavy cloth cover over them when you see pictures just to keep them protected. 



Mk 46 or 54 torps are not terribly large; they'd work against smaller stuff but there's only about a 100 pound warhead - compared to shipkiller Harpoons, the torpedo carries only one fifth the mass of explosives.  Granted, submarines tend to be a little more vulnerable than typical surface ships, so you don't really need huge warheads to get rid of them.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1300 on: 26 August 2019, 20:07:36 »
I'm just surprised torpedoes aren't regarded as good weapons to mount on a surface ship.  Unlike missiles, there aren't many defenses against them except now the SSTDS torpedo defense system being slowly deployed among the US carriers since 2013 which fairly recent development.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1301 on: 26 August 2019, 20:41:02 »
Well, they ARE generally mounted on ships, just in things like ASROC launchers or via helicopter.  This way you can drop the torpedo from unexpected locations instead of 'from the ship' - and it also means you have a much wider coverage area, being able to drop torps anywhere your helo can reach.  Especially with dipping sonars, air-laid sonobuoys, and whatnot, it just makes sense to focus your interception capabilities at long range and kill the sub before it's close enough to threaten your ships.

That said, nothing's perfect, so that's why that bootleg-derringer of the Mk 36 launcher exists.  It's just a backup, rather than the primary system.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1302 on: 26 August 2019, 21:24:27 »
Those light torpedoes have a shaped charge warhead for cracking those tough pressure hulls. If the sub is near the surface, that may well not be catastrophic, but it also won't be running silent, running deep after getting hit.
« Last Edit: 27 August 2019, 01:21:03 by chanman »

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1303 on: 26 August 2019, 21:56:26 »
Kind of like getting kicked in the crotch by a kid.  You're not going down, but you're not doing anything substantial for a good while either.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1304 on: 26 August 2019, 22:37:10 »
For real spine-breaking power, you'd want those 3-400kg type torps though

I think until recently torpedo tubes are sort of considered one of those, "eh it's not too expensive or heavy or bulky, just slap one on" sort of things

But if they really get the anti-torpedo torpedo going, they're going to want it for reals

I'm just surprised torpedoes aren't regarded as good weapons to mount on a surface ship. 
I think because if you need to and are in range to fire one, you're already in deep doo-doo
« Last Edit: 26 August 2019, 22:39:01 by Kidd »

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1305 on: 27 August 2019, 00:55:21 »
I'm just surprised torpedoes aren't regarded as good weapons to mount on a surface ship. 

This sentence confuses the hell out of me. If, as you allege, torpedoes aren't regarded as useful weapons for ships...then why does damned near every warship afloat bigger than an OPV and smaller than a carrier carry them? Same goes for missiles designed to give extra range to them, and aircraft that devote hardpoints to them?

Seems pretty widely deployed for a supposedly bad weapon.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1306 on: 27 August 2019, 01:00:58 »
Italian Navy is actually planning to put a pair of 21-inch heavy torpedo tubes on the "full" version of the Paolo Thaon di Revel class vessels, although no one has any idea why. Will mount the same torpedoes as their submarines. Possibly to better spread the geo-return for the project, it's mostly an anti-austerity buy after all.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1307 on: 27 August 2019, 01:28:18 »
All you have to do is compare the range and speed of torpedo to well... anything else.

Doing some back of the envelope calculations, a Mk 46 takes 8-9 minutes to reach its maximum range of approx 10 km. The Mk. 50 has about 50% more range, but no extra speed. A Mk. 48 heavy torpedo bumps the range up to a max of 40-50 km (I suspect the real limiting factor will be the length of wire for direct control), but it's going to take a looooooong time to get there.

The light torpedos have about the same range as a gun, but the gun projectiles are something like 25x faster. The heavy torpedos can (theoretically) reach out as far as a reasonable AShM, but even a subsonic missile like Harpoon or Exocet is moving well over 10x faster than the torpedo.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1308 on: 27 August 2019, 07:51:36 »
This sentence confuses the hell out of me. If, as you allege, torpedoes aren't regarded as useful weapons for ships...then why does damned near every warship afloat bigger than an OPV and smaller than a carrier carry them? Same goes for missiles designed to give extra range to them, and aircraft that devote hardpoints to them?

Seems pretty widely deployed for a supposedly bad weapon.
I meant as a anti surface weapon vs a primarily anti submarine weapon on Surface Ships.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1309 on: 27 August 2019, 09:20:44 »
Well, the main points against torpedoes as ASuW weapons have been listed alreads. Torpedoes are slow and have less range, when compared to missiles. Even heavy weight torpedoes like the Mk. 48 ADCAP, the German Seehecht or the Italian Black Shark make only 50-55 kn. The British Spearfish makes 80 kn. At a range of roughly 50 km surface units would be well within detection range of every other surface unit and would still need to get considerably closer for an effective firing range.


Essentially, one would need to slip through air cover and radar detection and then somehow avoid one's opponent's missiles, which reach out 200 km or more and then fire a torpedo at, let's say 25 km. The British Spearfish makes 80 kn, as stated above, which is almost 150 km/h. That's 2.5 km per minute, so it takes the torpedo 10 minutes to reach a target at 25 km.

Ten minutes are a lot in modern warfare and at 25 km you're practically within firing range of surface guns (e. g. Arleigh Burkes use a 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 gun with an effective firing range of 24.8 km). Those shells would hit you, before the torpedo gets to the Arleigh Burke.

In short: Torpedoes are not a viable surface warfare option, because they're to slow, don't have the range and any aggressor would be within the kill zone of any large surface combatant, before being able to launch torpedoes.

2.5 km per minute
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1310 on: 27 August 2019, 11:35:47 »
I supect that why some were looking into supercavitating torpedoes.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1311 on: 27 August 2019, 12:13:28 »
They didn't pan out too well for the Kursk.  xp
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1312 on: 27 August 2019, 12:13:44 »
Not really. The Shkval was intended as a countermeasure against submarines the Soviet submarine had so far not noticed. In theory, the Shkval would be a point-and-shoot weapon, with only inertial navigation guidance.

They were carried by Soviet submarines ready to fire, just in case a NATO submarine would sneak up on them and fire undetected. The Shkval would then we shot and the NATO submarine would have to evade, giving the Soviet submarine time to get the hell out of Dodge.

The VA-111 Shkval also had a nuclear warhead option, in which case it could have been used against submarines or even surface action groups to sink the main ship, i. e. the Carrier. But obviously this would have meant escalating any conflict to a nuclear level, which wasn't something the Soviets would have done lightly (nor the NATO navies). With an effective firing range of 10-15 km, Shkvals never really were an option for ASuW anyway, even less so as a weapon for a surface unit itself.

Modern Shkval versions seem to have a more elaborate guidance system, but it's nowhere near conventional torpedoes. You simply cannot attach wire guidance to a rocket propelled torpedo an super cavitational propulsion makes any on-board sensor a mute point: water makes most useless anyway and cavitation kills the sonar option.

There's a reason Western navies never adopted this idea: It's a last ditch weapon meant for submarines with inferior sensors. And what it's supposed to do can be better done by two things: torpedo decoys and better sensors. In the end, if a hostile submarine is within 10 km of you and fires, you can simply shoot an ADCAP it's way and hope for the same result as with a Shkval. Your main activity should be torpedo evasion in any case.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1313 on: 27 August 2019, 13:00:36 »
The British Spearfish makes 80 kn, as stated above, which is almost 150 km/h. That's 2.5 km per minute, so it takes the torpedo 10 minutes to reach a target at 25 km.
Spearfish has a speed-optimized motor setting for those 80 knots. It only does 14 nm range at this speed, hence not being able to engage at 25 km at all. At "standard speed" it reaches 30 nm - much like about every other modern 533mm torpedo.

DM2A4 for comparison instead has a "long range" speed setting with a speed of about 40 knots and a classified range of probably somewhere around 65 nm in default configuration.
(there's a modular version with 90+ nm range and a loitering autonomous cruise-and-attack mode)
« Last Edit: 27 August 2019, 13:02:27 by kato »

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1314 on: 27 August 2019, 13:59:30 »
Ah, thanks for the amendments.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1315 on: 27 August 2019, 14:23:46 »
Hypothetically, could torpedoes be used as "active mines"? Drop them in the path of an enemy force set to attack when they get in range?

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1316 on: 27 August 2019, 14:32:14 »
Hypothetically, could torpedoes be used as "active mines"? Drop them in the path of an enemy force set to attack when they get in range?


I believe that is exactly what a modern naval mine is


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine#US_mines
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1317 on: 27 August 2019, 14:52:45 »

I believe that is exactly what a modern naval mine is


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine#US_mines
Um that's not what  that mine is. That particular mine is set in a torpedo so it can be placed in places where no minelayers can go. It's not same as a torpedo being set in an area and immedaitely attack when the target is within its range (detection and attack range)
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1318 on: 27 August 2019, 15:09:39 »
CAPTOR has very limited uses and isn't particularly widespread - even as a concept. The US Navy considered it obsolescent 20 years ago already (!) and got rid of most of them.

Currently followed concepts for the USN hark back to the SLMM of the 1960s, basically a mine replacing the warhead of a Mk37 torpedo to be delivered to its position from standoff range. It will be replaced by the Mk76 ISLMM adapting the same concept to a Mk48 torpedo and two mine warheads to be dropped in separate locations. For lack of funding took about 25 years to put this into service relatively recently.


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1319 on: 27 August 2019, 15:21:51 »
Talking about airborne torpedoes