Register Register

Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 28255 times)

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 20261
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #660 on: 11 April 2019, 15:24:32 »
Oh, definitely.

But a canny diesel operator who gets lucky predicting task force path can sit on the bottom and let the carrier sail overhead. I believe that's the usual way it's done in exercises.

Of course, in wartime YMMV ;) But it's good that the carrier commanders don't get complacent. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed ..."

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9584
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #661 on: 11 April 2019, 16:07:48 »
AIP diesel boats are a doubledeuce to track, because they've got that extended time away from surfacing.

And yeah, no matter how much sound damping you have, there's the very simple fact that a nuc plant at any level of output requires coolant flow at the very least as well as a trickle of power generation to avoid making hotspots.  You can get those bloody quiet, but not perfectly so.  Meanwhile, listening to an electrical system ticking away at 60hz, well...that's "hole in the water" levels of quiet.

re: the use of active sonar, dancing around rule 4 territory but aren't there rules limiting peacetime use of active pings so not to screw with sea life?  Those would go out the window in a combat environment, but that might be one reason why the subhunters aren't having such an easy job of it in peacetime.  Or maybe they are, tracking the SSK the whole time, just not telling anyone so that it's hard to judge how good their sonar is after all.  "Whoops they got us, shucks, guess our gear's not so hot" snicker snicker.

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 971
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #662 on: 12 April 2019, 04:37:25 »
re: the use of active sonar, dancing around rule 4 territory but aren't there rules limiting peacetime use of active pings so not to screw with sea life?  Those would go out the window in a combat environment, but that might be one reason why the subhunters aren't having such an easy job of it in peacetime.  Or maybe they are, tracking the SSK the whole time, just not telling anyone so that it's hard to judge how good their sonar is after all.  "Whoops they got us, shucks, guess our gear's not so hot" snicker snicker.

Ugh. No, there's no international convention against radiating sonar continuously. A lot of nations have policies regulating it, and outlawing it in their territorial waters, but there is no whole of world law covering it.

Oh, definitely.

But a canny diesel operator who gets lucky predicting task force path can sit on the bottom and let the carrier sail overhead. I believe that's the usual way it's done in exercises.

Of course, in wartime YMMV ;) But it's good that the carrier commanders don't get complacent. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed ..."

W.

Gotta get really lucky there, a few miles and you're out of luck. Other than that, "I don't remember!"  :thumbsup:

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9584
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #663 on: 12 April 2019, 06:20:07 »
Ugh. No, there's no international convention against radiating sonar continuously. A lot of nations have policies regulating it, and outlawing it in their territorial waters, but there is no whole of world law covering it.
Yeah, I was thinking of USN peacetime rules for fleet exercises.  Nothing international, just "keep the noise down while you're training" sort of thing.  I'd read a while ago there was kerfluffle over the use of active sonar and how it would mess with sea life at long distances, but I wasn't sure if there was anything on the books.


Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16199
  • Dang it!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #664 on: 12 April 2019, 07:32:39 »
I randomly found this picture.  This is the British Pre-Dreadnought HMS Camperdown (sudden i get urge sing "Camptown Races song" when i hear that name) being used a Berthing Ship at Harwich, England between 1908 to 1911, before she was sold off.


Picture of the ship from it's better days.  Interesting design, with exposed main guns verses inside armored turrets. 

She was Admiral Class Battleship built in late 1880s.  She infamously was the ship the collided with HMS Victoria and sank her.
She being commissioned in 1889, she sort of had short career, given that she was paid off in 1903.  She was barely 14 years old, goes to show you how rapid obsolete due to Dreadnought's creation among other things did. 

Her most noted actions was during the 1897 Christian Insurrection where she joined the International Squadron,  and used her main 13inch guns in anger supporting the Ottoman Empire. 

« Last Edit: 12 April 2019, 11:36:44 by Wrangler »
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9584
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #665 on: 12 April 2019, 09:45:50 »
Exposed guns intrigue me; obviously it's before the days of aircraft so being strafed wouldn't be so much of an issue.  Did they leave the armor off to make the turrets faster on the rotation, or just to save weight overall for the ship?

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32463
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #666 on: 12 April 2019, 09:57:43 »
My question is wether enclosed turrets for guns that big were even possible with the technology of the day. It may be less than two decades before Dreadnought, but as  was said, technology was moving very fast during that period. Rotating big guns is one thing, but they may not have been able to fit the machinery needed to traverse a fully armored(and unbelievably heavy) turret into a cramped warship.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9584
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #667 on: 12 April 2019, 10:09:11 »
Monitor ran an eight-inch thick powered turret with a pair of 11" Dahlgrens, using two steam engines to run the turret.  I want to say it could make a full 360 in under a minute, but I can't remember where I'd read that.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #668 on: 12 April 2019, 10:30:54 »
Yeah, but look at how big that- presumably- rotating table is for those mounted forward guns.  I would also assume this ship had a more advanced recoil recovery system as well as being breech loading.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19168
  • What hell hath science wrought?
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #669 on: 12 April 2019, 11:07:19 »
A lot of it was a metacentric height issue. There were more than a few predreadnoughts (granted, particularly in France and Russia, but elsewhere as well) that had absolutely awful balance issues due to too much weight being up-high. So by not armoring the gun mounts, you both eliminated an enormous amount of topside weight, and didn't REALLY affect the ship's durability- a hit on that mount probably was going to disable it anyway, armored or not, so why bother? (This obviously was a flawed way of looking at things, which is why it didn't continue past this point... one suspects the gun crews weren't asked for their opinions either.)

It's fascinating to look at the predreadnought era. As Weirdo pointed out, this is 20 years prior to Dreadnought, but things advanced amazingly fast at this point- and not from one direction, but many. Remember, Dreadnought's biggest advancement wasn't the all-big-gun concept (that was being attempted at the same time in the U.S. and Japan, remember), it's that she had turbine engines. The guns were almost an afterthought when you really look at the design. Between that point and the above, there's a whole lot of really interesting and unique ideas as a result of many advances all made around the same time- weapon technology, engine advancements, shipbuilding techniques, etc.

The results were ships that varied wildly, with different navies having what looked to them like great ideas that often just didn't really pan out, but had to be tested to find that out. A good example is the American attempts to mount their intermediate batteries atop the main batteries, which seemed wise because it meant less big holes in the deck (thus a stronger hull), less magazines to hit, and less chance of a hit knocking out a chunk of the ship's main firepower. Of course, metacentric height was a big problem as a result, and a lucky hit could disable a HUGE chunk of the ship's weaponry- and as a result, the American Navy discontinued that idea after a couple of classes. No one else even tried it though- it remained a unique idea there. Tumblehome hulls are another one that seemed like a great idea to the Russians in particular, that didn't really pan out as well as they wanted it to.

It's a fascinating era to look through and see how different navies approached the new technology and tactics being forced down their throats faster than they could keep up- and how it set up the following dreadnought race, eliminating bad ideas along the way so that by the time Dreadnought raised her flag, most of the silliness had been worked out of designers' systems in favor of simple efficiency.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

marauder648

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6041
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #670 on: 12 April 2019, 11:38:00 »
Turrets were possible even on these ships, a sub-variant and single ship, the HMS Hood replaced their barbettes with turrets, but she lost a deck and was always low in the water.



Bascailly it was a weight issue and as JadeHellbringer said, a metacentric height issue.  That huge weight of the turrets would have unbalanced the ship so they had to take a deck or two off to fit the turret in the place of the barbette.  But the open barbettes were later given overhead hoods and these would later evolve into the iterations of turrets that grew from there.  The Monitor style turrets were basically a bit of a dead end.

The early turrets or hooded barbettes also had a bit of an issue, they had to be trained to point ahead/astern to be reloaded because of the layout of the barbettes, some countries had all round loading (France and Italy) and then when the 'hooded barbette' came out these had some drawbacks like ahead loading, but protected the crews without the insane weight of the traditional monitor style turrets.  And in the very late 1800's Hooded barbettes evolved into having all round loading and this lead to the final demise of the open barbettes and the introduction of the hooded barbette.
« Last Edit: 12 April 2019, 11:52:04 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19168
  • What hell hath science wrought?
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #671 on: 12 April 2019, 12:50:28 »
Meant to put this in my prior post and apparently forgot before hitting 'send'. This is USS New Jersey (no, not THAT one, this is BB-16), following her late-career upgrade to having  cage masts, among other improvements. Here she's wearing anti-submarine camouflage, a common thing for the predreadnought fleet to do in this period (the Nebraska regularly tested new schemes as well). This shot clearly shows what I was talking about before, with the intermediate battery mounted directly atop the main mounts, with anti-destroyer guns mounted in casemates along the hull (another couple were on 01 deck).

"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #672 on: 12 April 2019, 13:07:06 »
While you say they did away with this, looked at cross-eyed it looks like later battleships where the main gun turrets were tiered instead all at the same level on the main deck.



Instead of like this French Danton contemporary to BB-16-


Anyone want to volunteer for this gun crew?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16015
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #673 on: 12 April 2019, 13:50:08 »
That gun looks like something you'd hunt whales with.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #674 on: 12 April 2019, 14:42:35 »
Pivot gun . . . rapid fire, half inch or 1-inch gun?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

kato

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #675 on: 12 April 2019, 15:36:23 »
That's a QF 3-pounder Hotchkiss. 47mm. The shoulder rest for the gunner is characteristic for that particular gun-mount combo.

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2396
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #676 on: 12 April 2019, 15:39:51 »
https://play.acast.com/s/dansnowshistoryhit/seapowerswithandrewlambert


This is a very good and interesting 40 minute podcast
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32463
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #677 on: 12 April 2019, 17:23:21 »
I really don't need to be getting into yet another minis game, but sometime I'd love to find a good ruleset for predread wargaming. It'd be absolutely fascinating to see how all those wild designs actually fare against each other.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8861
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #678 on: 12 April 2019, 17:26:38 »
Spoiler alert: the Dreadnought wins...  ::)

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #679 on: 12 April 2019, 18:00:53 »
Well . . . US Fleet beats the Spanish when they sail into the harbor.  Only other naval battle that comes to mind near the era is the Battle of Tsushima Straits, which was also a decisive victory.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9584
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #680 on: 12 April 2019, 18:44:25 »
Man, I want to post that excerpt of Voyage of the Damned, but got in trouble last time.  So I'll just leave this here. instead.

Really, anytime Tsushima Straits comes up, it's got to be remembered just what the Tzar's forces were and were doing, compared to Japan's fleet that had basically sat around their home waters and dealt with local threats for a while rather than trying to sail around half the planet.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #681 on: 12 April 2019, 19:14:34 »
I do remember a lot of that discussion, neither of the battles I cited were really a indication of the comparative design philosophies simply because the conditions of the battles vastly counted for way more than the ship builds.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

Alexander Knight

  • Peditum Generalis
  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4474
  • O-R-E-O
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #682 on: 12 April 2019, 22:28:14 »
I really don't need to be getting into yet another minis game, but sometime I'd love to find a good ruleset for predread wargaming. It'd be absolutely fascinating to see how all those wild designs actually fare against each other.

Ironclads and Ether Flyers, Wierdo.  It even has navy lists for the 1880s.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16199
  • Dang it!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #683 on: 17 April 2019, 10:15:20 »
Snap shot of the future and the past.  Sea Hunter USV and the USS Missouri in backdrop in Pearl Harbor.



Maybe in 15-20 Years well barely 1 manned ship for every dozen USV per Task Force.   Personally, as much i want protect human life.  I'm not liking it at all.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16199
  • Dang it!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #684 on: 17 April 2019, 11:40:45 »
Speaking scary,  video footage has been taped of the Russian's new Nuclear-Powered Torpedo, nicknamed as the Kanyon. .  Essentially this is a sea going nuclear ballistic missile, that meant take out carrier groups and ruin coastal areas with contamination. 
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

Sabelkatten

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5043
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #685 on: 17 April 2019, 12:06:39 »
There are so many things wrong with the just the idea of that weapon it could probably rule 4 the entire forum all by itself... xp

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #686 on: 17 April 2019, 12:21:08 »
I want to say the Russians have played around with that sort of weapon since at least the 80s.  Part of the idea was that since they had not been able to successfully penetrate a carrier group screen, they would exploit a warhead where 'close' was good enough.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2396
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #687 on: 17 April 2019, 12:58:02 »
I want to say the Russians have played around with that sort of weapon since at least the 80s.  Part of the idea was that since they had not been able to successfully penetrate a carrier group screen, they would exploit a warhead where 'close' was good enough.


We've taken out the Mediterranean Fleet the easy way, we've nuked the whole of the Med...???
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15578
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #688 on: 17 April 2019, 13:04:48 »
Pretty much, look at how the Soviets solved some of the engineering problems in military applications- they executed a brute force approach.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

grimlock1

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1296
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #689 on: 17 April 2019, 14:57:25 »
Pretty much, look at how the Soviets solved some of the engineering problems in military applications- they executed a brute force approach.
Both sides deployed nuclear torpedoes during the Cold War.  On the old Balao subs, the control of the nuclear weapons came from a collar that locked around the circumference of the torpedo. There were two combination locks, one for the captain, one for the weapons officer.

Also, Tsar Bomba was 2 meters across by 8 meters long weighed in at 27 metric tons, but was only 50 megatons of TNT. So I'm taking that nice, round 100 megaton yield with a grain of salt.

Putting a tactical warhead in what amounts to a small autonomous sub with a range of several hundred miles?  Now that would keep me up at night.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.