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Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 77199 times)

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1170 on: 11 August 2019, 17:02:06 »


P570 Knud Rasmussen.
P571 Ejnar Mikkelsen.
P572 Lauge Koch.

Dedicated OPVs commissioned in 2008-17. Primarily patrol Greenland's EEZ.

1720 tons, 72m long, 18 crew
Armament 1x 76mm (modular, not always installed)
Fitted for but not with 12x ESSM (drop-in module, illuminators are installed).
Helicopter deck, no hangar. Ice-reinforced hull. Accomodation for additional 25 troops.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1171 on: 11 August 2019, 17:32:12 »
Dropping in a first coastguard vessel among the large EU27 patrols...



- Seeadler.
- Seefalke.
- Meerkatze.

Fisheries patrol ships for North Sea EEZ commissioned 2005-2009. Also patrol EU EEZ within North Atlantic. Largest dedicated civilian coastguard patrol ships in the EU.

1750 tons, 73m long, 20-21 crew
No armament.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1172 on: 12 August 2019, 12:55:25 »
Same thing in battleship grey:



P62 Alboran.
P63 Arnomendi.
P64 Tarifa.

Fisheries patrol boats for the western Mediterranean. Also patrol EU EEZ within North Atlantic and around the Canary Islands. Purpose-built on a trawler hull design in 1995-2000 after first ship of class - decommissioned now - was converted from this design.

1960 tons, 66m long, 37 crew.
No armament (machine guns).
Helicopter deck for light helo only, no hangar. Limited onboard medical facilities for SAR role.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1173 on: 12 August 2019, 13:08:59 »


P401 Cassiopea.
P402 Libra.
P403 Spica.
P404 Vega.

Dedicated OPVs procured for fisheries patrol and pollution control in the Mediterranean EEZ in 1989-92. Heavily armed for the role.

1475 tons, 80m long, 60 crew
Armament: 1x 76mm gun, 2x 25mm guns.
Helicopter deck and hangar for light helo.

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1174 on: 12 August 2019, 16:44:27 »
I'm amazed at the range of crew sizes on such small vessels...

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1175 on: 12 August 2019, 17:22:06 »

You can assume "halved" crew numbers if the ship serves only policing duties and no combat role, partially due to different shift concepts. In return these ships tend to have rapid crew rotations, e.g. every two months for the Knud Rasmussens.

That gets you to crew numbers in the 40-70 range for these patrol ships, a bit dependent on armament and auxiliary equipment. For older ships, in particular before the mid-90s, you then also have to add a factor of up to around x2 for lack of automatisation.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1176 on: 12 August 2019, 17:28:42 »
Ah, right.  Automation has come a long way since the '90s.  Or rather, acceptance of automation has come a long way since then.  True war ships will always have extra bodies to throw at the kind of problems you see in an environment that includes anti-ship missiles.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1177 on: 12 August 2019, 20:19:16 »
Well you do need extra crew for damage control parties when in a potential combat zone.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1178 on: 13 August 2019, 07:35:37 »
pollution control with heavily arm ships was always strange to me. I had not picture a ship threatening sink the polluters ship with its fire power only cause it to pollute anyways.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1179 on: 13 August 2019, 08:01:36 »
No need. Armed ships policing unarmed ones have luxuries like accepting a very likely surrender. Even if weapons fire is needed, they can afford to get in close and simply target the superstructure with deck guns, instead of having to fire from a distance using SSMs or torpedoes. Proportional response has been the name of the game since well before even the age of gunboat diplomacy. I'm confident that captains are well aware that their options when dealing with such violators extend beyond 'sink them'.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1180 on: 13 August 2019, 08:41:14 »
In the foreground is the Japanese light cruiser Tama (Kuma-class), with the battlecruiser Haruna in the background (Kongo-class). This appears to be in the late 1930s, as Haruna looks to be in her final pre-war configuration at this point.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1181 on: 13 August 2019, 10:27:19 »
pollution control with heavily arm ships was always strange to me.
All Italian boats for policing duties built in the late 80s were armed with at least a 76mm due to possible altercations/harassments with e.g. Libya in the Gulf of Sirte at the time.

The two vessels P409/P410 listed with the Comandanti ships are the nominal successors to the above Cassiopea class (the design is also related, even if the hull lines don't really tell...). The two new ships only got their 76mm ffbnw.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1182 on: 13 August 2019, 11:16:33 »
Looks for some sort of review, any idea where the picture is from?
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1183 on: 13 August 2019, 14:10:18 »
What IS pollution control anyway?

To me it conjures images of a firefighter boat spraying magical decontaminant... or a garbage scow with a backhoe scoop :D

And why do navies use sail training ships? Other than for PR.
« Last Edit: 13 August 2019, 14:27:34 by Kidd »

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1184 on: 13 August 2019, 15:29:59 »
What IS pollution control anyway?

To me it conjures images of a firefighter boat spraying magical decontaminant... or a garbage scow with a backhoe scoop :D

And why do navies use sail training ships? Other than for PR.

Pollution control I'm guessing would be tasked with checking ships in a nation's area of interest insuring things are not being dumped in their waters

Sailing ships would be team working skills or cadets who are too junior for big boats

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1185 on: 13 August 2019, 16:37:23 »
And why do navies use sail training ships? Other than for PR.

Lots of reasons, which is why the US Coast Guard still is operating the Eagle.  I think its also a better way to teach understanding the medium- how better to understand the effect of wind & wave on any vessel than to take it into your calculations because you are dependent on it?  But all of the cadets are removed from modern high tech supports and they are left to rely on very basic instruments.  Like a obstacle course for the Army, its a way of building confidence for the cadets- especially in rough seas/conditions, to KNOW you can survive it exposed to raw nature as you struggle to accomplish the task.  For navies (and CGs) it can be a common shared cultural experience (when did you sail on the Eagle?  Oh, '11?  You sailed with Joe Bob!  I heard he got stuck out on the lanyard, afraid to move in the midst of a blow?) which can be important to building and maintaining a group culture for espirit de corps.  It would be similar to the Marines Crucible or special forces graduation exercises.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1186 on: 13 August 2019, 16:59:17 »
There's also the fact that a training cruise on a destroyer or carrier is unlikely to sufficiently beat into your head the fact that the ocean WILL kill you the moment you stop paying attention to it.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1187 on: 13 August 2019, 21:52:49 »
But all of the cadets are removed from modern high tech supports and they are left to rely on very basic instruments.  Like a obstacle course for the Army, its a way of building confidence for the cadets- especially in rough seas/conditions, to KNOW you can survive it exposed to raw nature as you struggle to accomplish the task.
More important than you might think.  Ask the crew of the USS Franklin, the most heavily damaged warship to survive WWII.



You want to talk about a sailing ship, she had to be taken under tow by a cruiser - no power, no engines, no guns, no planes, nothing, and kept afloat by what was left of her crew until they could get emergency repairs going and literally limp back to Hawaii.  And this was after losing 924 of her crew in the battle.  When you're literally riding a steel box on the ocean completely at the whim of the wind and water, it's good to be ready with the basics.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1188 on: 13 August 2019, 22:08:20 »
I read in a novel back in middle school that US navy ships carried sails for emergency situations at least as late as world war II. Anybody know if that's true? It seems suspicious to a mind that isn't twelve years old anymore.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1190 on: 13 August 2019, 22:59:38 »
Not sure WWII . . . they did use sail cloth for shades in tropical climates I think.  I could see that being the case as late as the Spanish American War.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1191 on: 13 August 2019, 23:52:24 »
I read in a novel back in middle school that US navy ships carried sails for emergency situations at least as late as world war II. Anybody know if that's true? It seems suspicious to a mind that isn't twelve years old anymore.

I've heard stories of a sub just before the war that suffered an engine failure, and sail back to Pearl. Also a carrier that, while not truly under sail, took rudder/propeller damage and rigged a jib sail in order to better maintain yaw control on the way back to port.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1192 on: 14 August 2019, 00:51:59 »
    Pollution control I'm guessing would be tasked with checking ships in a nation's area of interest insuring things are not being dumped in their waters
    Pollution control ships carry:
    • equipment to detect contaminants in water, including often a laboratory
    • equipment to filter out most such contaminants from seawater
    • extensions (deployable booms etc) to increase reach for doing the same efficiently for larger spills
    • equipment to carry the contaminant back to port (in larger ships e.g. even very large inflatable barges to be towed by the ship)
    • in the offshore versions also sometimes some sort of workshop to repair ships adhoc to prevent further spills

    kato

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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1193 on: 14 August 2019, 00:52:31 »
    Largest dedicated civilian coastguard patrol ships in the EU.
    Correcting myself on that: These are the largest.



    CP940 Luigi Dattilo.
    CP941 Ubaldo Diciotti.

    Purpose-built OPVs for patrol, SAR and pollution control in the Mediterranean commissioned 2013/14. Part of program to transfer some duties in this area to civilian ships.

    3600 tons, 95m length, 39-41 crew.
    No armament, fitted for but not with 1x 76mm gun.
    Helicopter deck and hangar. Carry 4 RHIB on davits. Space to transport six containers or 14 cars. Can tow ships up to 5000 tons. May carry up to 600 people in SAR duty.

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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1194 on: 14 August 2019, 05:22:34 »
    I read in a novel back in middle school that US navy ships carried sails for emergency situations at least as late as world war II. Anybody know if that's true? It seems suspicious to a mind that isn't twelve years old anymore.


    large areas of canvas, not technically for use as sails (no masts!) but for use as sunshades (see lots of photos from interwar years and earlier) and also as part of damage control (canvas floated from the outside over a hole below the waterline can then act as a temporary block to water entry, held in place by the pressure difference and something to slow the flow while damage control do something more permanent)
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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1195 on: 14 August 2019, 05:42:54 »
    Mister Monkey, we must make repairs before the Bismarck comes about again; fother a sail over the bottom, get these shot holes plugged, have that halyard re-rove; gunners load double shot and grape; boarding party assemble on the foc'sle! For the King, country, and the prize!

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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1196 on: 14 August 2019, 05:52:16 »
    Mister Monkey, we must make repairs before the Bismarck comes about again; fother a sail over the bottom, get these shot holes plugged, have that halyard re-rove; gunners load double shot and grape; boarding party assemble on the foc'sle! For the King, country, and the prize!

    That leaves me wondering, when was the last time a warship was taken by boarding?
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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1197 on: 14 August 2019, 08:00:15 »
    That leaves me wondering, when was the last time a warship was taken by boarding?
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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1198 on: 14 August 2019, 10:07:14 »
    That leaves me wondering, when was the last time a warship was taken by boarding?

    When the North Koreans seized that USS Pueblo maybe. The USCG has seized some old Russian Subs sold to cartels.

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    Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
    « Reply #1199 on: 14 August 2019, 10:40:12 »
    I've heard stories of a sub just before the war that suffered an engine failure, and sail back to Pearl. Also a carrier that, while not truly under sail, took rudder/propeller damage and rigged a jib sail in order to better maintain yaw control on the way back to port.

    That one was the USS intrepid.
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