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Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 68877 times)

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1260 on: 17 August 2019, 12:05:45 »
Those look like awfully big guns for such a small vessel...

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1261 on: 17 August 2019, 15:25:48 »
Those look like awfully big guns for such a small vessel...
No, this is awfully big guns on a small vessel.

Built during World War II, the HMS Roberts was armed with a 2 × 15-inch/42 Mk 1 guns in a twin turret, backed up by 4 inch guns and machine guns.
Here turret came from the battleship Resolution, the ship fought number campaigns during the war. She was primary provided bombardment.  The ship was scrapped in 1965, while her sister ship was scrapped in 1955.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1262 on: 17 August 2019, 15:34:49 »
THAT looks like a lot of weight way too high for stability...

HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1263 on: 17 August 2019, 19:11:36 »
THAT looks like a lot of weight way too high for stability...
That's why these monitors had WIDE bottoms. Bulges.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1264 on: 17 August 2019, 19:13:37 »
Still wouldn't want to be aboard her in anything above Sea State 2...

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1265 on: 17 August 2019, 19:35:09 »
That's a nice photo of Roberts. they also had I think a 15 foot draft so they could get nice and close to the shore of Normandy during D-Day
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1266 on: 19 August 2019, 11:53:43 »

This is interesting, i was reading on Newsweek about the problems with reports of the Russian missile test, they mentioned near the explosion the Russians are modifying India's INS Vikramaditya, the old Kiev-Class Aviation Cruiser (Helicopter Carrier).  I didn't know she was back in Russia again for modifications/endless fixing.

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nerd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1267 on: 19 August 2019, 12:14:00 »
The Russians sold her with a warranty.

Not exactly a normal procedure with warships.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1268 on: 19 August 2019, 12:59:36 »
That's why these monitors had WIDE bottoms. Bulges.

Fat bottomed girls like to rock.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1269 on: 19 August 2019, 13:07:13 »
Fat bottomed girls like to rock.

HEYOOO

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1270 on: 19 August 2019, 14:09:32 »
Italian battleship Littorio

Another beautiful pic of ship camo

Someone tell me, what was the strength of the Italian Navy like going into WW2? Of course we all know what really happened, but what did it seem like they were capable of, at the start?


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1271 on: 19 August 2019, 14:19:59 »
The Russians sold her with a warranty.

Not exactly a normal procedure with warships.
When i read the article, it almost sounded like the Russians were doing something with one the other Kiev-Class ships they retired.  Given the material state of the previous ships, how often India's ship had to get engines fixed, i doubt they'd dump more  money in 30+ year old design until i remember Russia sold half of them to China as museum ships, 1 scrapped, and  INS Vikramaditya.

Former Soviet Aviation Cruiser, Kiev in  Tianjin Binhai theme park in 2004.  She since been refitted as Hotel in 2011.


Not sure what is written on the hull. I thought it used to be the CCCP thing, but it's hard to make out.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1272 on: 19 August 2019, 14:24:18 »
Broadly on par with France numerically - although with older ships, lack of technological advances like radar and a lot of vital vessels to that strength in refit at the outbreak of the war.

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1273 on: 19 August 2019, 14:42:41 »

Not sure what is written on the hull. I thought it used to be the CCCP thing, but it's hard to make out.
That's "Kiev" in cyrillic alphabet


JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1274 on: 19 August 2019, 14:45:28 »
Italy had a very simple mindset- the Mediterranean Sea was their private pond, everyone else wasn't welcome. Because of their country's geography, they felt that aircraft carriers were unnecessary- how often would they be operating out of reach of land-based aircraft, really?- and as such they focused on light cruisers and destroyers. Their older battleships received major upgrades to their weaponry (slight boring-out for larger shells, but an enormous increase in angle, allowing for greater plunging fire). Outside of the old battleships, almost all Italian vessels were built for speed above almost all other considerations- after all, while they were always going to be under air cover, they had a lot of coast to cover. As such, their cruisers tended to have destroyer speeds, their destroyers were among the fastest in the world, and their newer heavy cruiser and battleship types (like Littorio) were quick as well compared to contemporaries.

Leadership, however, was lacking- they regularly shied away from major actions out of fear of losing heavy ships. When they did try to engage, their crews were as brave as any, but flag decisions often were questionable (a good example being Matapan). Radar was essentially nonexistent for all intents and purposes for much of the war (again, see Matapan for an example of how THAT decision went).

On the whole, ships were lightly armored compared to contemporaries, lightly armed as well, but absurdly quick.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1275 on: 19 August 2019, 14:54:38 »
Did the head of the design bureau end up as a bloodname among the Ice Hellions?
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1276 on: 19 August 2019, 14:59:55 »
Did the head of the design bureau end up as a bloodname among the Ice Hellions?

Possibly. The Italian speed thing was also basically a tax break. The Italian government under 'ol Moosy had stipulated that any ship that exceeds its designed speed during Trials would get X amount of extra money for this for every knot they went over their designed speed.

So the Italian ship builders did some pretty outrageous cheating to eak every knot out of their ships in trials that went far beyond simply forcing the engines. Many cruisers ran trials with bare minimums of fuel onboard, or no ammunition. And in one case, no main guns, minimal fuel, no ammunition and the lowest possible number of crew onboard all to save weight and get that speed up. The ships obviously tended to exceed their designed speeds, the Italian Government got bragging rights for having super fast ships and the builders got money.
Of course these huge speeds were never really possible in real world conditions, but the Italian ships were still faster than their RN contemporaries. Its why the French started building fast cruisers and a series of very large and very fast 'super destroyers' that the RN called small light cruisers.

As JadeHellbie said, they did suffer from poor leadership and a marked aversion to risk, not out of cowardice, but because any ship lost was simply irreplaceable and represented a major loss of resources and capability. They also suffered from oil shortages. The Littorio's were fine ships but their gunnery also was wildly inconsistent. This is due to the Italians cutting costs with their shell manufacturing process and to try and get shells made quick, they made them cheap and this had marked effects on their ships gunnery. Sometimes the Italians were VERY good shots, the Littorio was straddling a ship at 32,000 odd yards, with only optical sighting during one battle. And the next, she was spraying shots all over the damn place with them coming no closer than 750 meters ahead or astern of their target, from the same turret and thats a HUGE spread of shot. And it was down to how poorly their shells were made.
« Last Edit: 19 August 2019, 15:03:58 by marauder648 »
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1277 on: 19 August 2019, 15:47:54 »
'Penny-wise and Pound-foolish' -unofficial motto of Italian Navy 1930s . . .

I was just wondering, and it would have been a hilarious coincidence.

Interesting things to know, I played one of the German sub games and did not have to worry about the Italian fleet in the Med, since it was about hunting the Brits so I never really tracked their ship's abilities.  All I really remember was . . . a torpedo biplanes wrecked them at anchor and the old joke "The new Italian Navy has unique view of the old Italian Navy, through glass bottoms on the ships."
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1278 on: 19 August 2019, 16:21:56 »
Quote
'Penny-wise and Pound-foolish' -unofficial motto of Italian Navy 1930s . . .

Pretty much, their desire for speed in their cruisers did go away somewhat in later designs, but their early designs were horrifically under-protected, you're talking 555ft long ships with 20mm of deck and side armour and 24mm on the turrets. Barely enough to slow down shell splinters.





Being the end result when exposed to 6-inch gunfire if caught.

This pretty much continued until later designs where they stepped back from the throttle and added armour, one class, the Zara had a 6-inch belt, better than many contemporaries. These ships were ostendebly within the 10k treaty tonnage for 8-inch gunned heavy cruisers, but quite happily exceeded this before applying any fuel, ammo etc. So they just lied about their weight.
The long narrow hulls also meant fairly cramped turrets and mounting the guns closer together than other navies ships, which had negative effects with regards to gunnery as the blast of the guns going off was enough to disrupt the shell flight of their neighbor. They countered this by going for long, high velocity guns. And this did work. Kinda, when the shells were of a decent quality. The high velocity guns though also basically ate themselves and barrel wear was a serious issue, meaning you had to replace them more often.

« Last Edit: 19 August 2019, 16:33:45 by marauder648 »
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Istal_Devalis

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1279 on: 20 August 2019, 10:12:58 »
Italians had serious issues with quality control for their shells. Theoretically their guns were super long range and accurate. In practice, the issues with shell production meant accuracy was all over the place.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1280 on: 20 August 2019, 13:00:39 »
The Aquila could have been something had they not had stopped it's completion, but given what has been said about the shotty working practices of the Italy's shipyards and navy's operations....i would doubt it.

A colorized image of the ship June 1951, just before it was scrapped.




« Last Edit: 20 August 2019, 13:04:47 by Wrangler »
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1281 on: 20 August 2019, 13:07:16 »
Wonder if there was a Allied report about the hull's status . . . you would think she might have been taken as reparations.  Wood or steel flight deck?
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1282 on: 20 August 2019, 13:32:10 »
Wonder if there was a Allied report about the hull's status . . . you would think she might have been taken as reparations.  Wood or steel flight deck?
I think by 1945 there were far too many carriers around, and of later and probably better design

Brits scrapped the Malta class and a couple Centaurs IINM, and the Americans had a surfeit of Essexes and Midways

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1283 on: 20 August 2019, 13:43:50 »
Sure, but the French Navy would not have had one except that converted BB . . . they ended up buying old Brit & US escort/light carriers for a while.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1284 on: 20 August 2019, 13:44:28 »
The thing to remember about Aquila (and the similar Falco) is that they were white elephants. This wasn't new construction- she was a liner converted for the job, roughly analogous to the Japanese Junyo-class ships. But while the Junyos used the same aircraft as their fleet carrier cousins- and as a result had formidable air groups- Aquila wasn't so lucky. By the time Italy bowed out of the war, they still didn't have any concrete plans for an air group- the Germans experimented with carrier-borne Ju-87s and such (the type that would have flown off THEIR abandoned carrier), but nothing was really planned beyond the 'slap a tailhook on THIS and see what happens!' phase of planning. (Compare this, again, with the dedicated carrier-based planes the Junyo operated)

Aquila would have been reasonably quick at 30 knots, would have had a modest air group (at best), and more likely than not would have been absolutely eaten for lunch in a Mediterranean carrier duel with an Illustrious-class, or more likely by submarines. Had she survived all that, she'd have been a major target for the Germans after the Italian surrender (see: battleship Roma), and even if she survived THAT, her impact on the war would have likely been negligible. The sole consolation for Italy's carrier never being completed is that her crew didn't have to die aboard her.
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1285 on: 20 August 2019, 14:02:17 »
WW2 carrier designs tended to need serious work to operate jets anyway.

See the Essex, Midway, Majestics, Centaur, etc.

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1286 on: 22 August 2019, 21:14:04 »

The short lived Japanese Aircraft Carrier Amagi.  She came out near the end of the war and was never deployed, she was bombed in 1945 at Kure and the crew ran her aground prevent her from capsizing. The way the picture looks like, it almost half the flight deck may have split off, she literally looks like she was cut in too.  :o
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hoosierhick

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1287 on: 25 August 2019, 15:36:03 »
I ran across this interesting webpage today about the USS Albacore. http://ussalbacore.org/html/history/building_changing.html

Albacore where she sits today in Albacore Park in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.


Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1288 on: 25 August 2019, 21:01:03 »
I've been to her. She be interesting ship.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1289 on: 26 August 2019, 00:51:13 »
I've been to her. She be interesting ship.

Boat. :)