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Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation  (Read 18946 times)

Ruger

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #480 on: 15 March 2019, 10:55:07 »
I am sorry, did I hear the theme music for Airwolf starting?

Shame about Stringfellow Hawk though...

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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #481 on: 15 March 2019, 11:03:39 »
From what I understand the F-15 has always had the ability to mount the other two wing pylons but they never used them for a reason I can't remember at the moment.  The F15SA and now the F-15X are the only ones actually using them.

when the -15SA got revealed lots of ace combat and macross references were tossed around in comments. the -15X is just the -15SA with the avionics swapped for more USAF compatible ones.

i keep expecting them to stick a double rack onto each of the attack conformal pack's lower bomb pylons to carry an extra 4 there. or to work out how to mount single AAM's to each of the bomb pylons on it for the same effect. or some sort of large multiple missile bay mounted where the centerline fuel tank goes, like the F/A-18 proposals.




given the push for smaller defensive munitions, like the Small Advanced Capability Missile program that wants to build a sidewinder comparable missile into a package the size of a small diameter bomb (to let stealth planes carry more in their bays), i suspect that missile spam is going to be increasingly an option for the non-stealth fighters.


« Last Edit: 15 March 2019, 11:13:02 by glitterboy2098 »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #482 on: 15 March 2019, 12:27:06 »
Shame about Stringfellow Hawk though...

Ruger
At least JMV isn't hurting anymore.

I wonder how much of Silent Eagle is going into the -15X; I don't see the canted tail structure so that's out.  But there could be some other LO stuff being put in, I suppose, since they're improving so many other things already.

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #483 on: 15 March 2019, 14:42:03 »

Wonder if they'll do something like a Starstreak, multiple A2A submunitions?  The brits seem to be enjoying the thing; maybe there's something to the capacity.
Maybe when Laser AMS or some Trophylike APS gets to fighters we'll see precursor submunitions and multiple warheads.

Msybe they'll come in racks of 5, 10, 15, 20 micro-missiles per salvo...

worktroll

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #484 on: 15 March 2019, 15:11:24 »
I wonder how much of Silent Eagle is going into the -15X; I don't see the canted tail structure so that's out.  But there could be some other LO stuff being put in, I suppose, since they're improving so many other things already.

My guess? Not a lot. How much more do they want to spend per airframe, on a missile bus? Plus, keeping the enemy's eyes on the F-15s, while not knowing where the F-22s etc are ...
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #485 on: 15 March 2019, 16:18:20 »
True, and there's probably plenty of 15X that won't work with Silent Eagle, but I figure it'd be an economic option.  If you're spending 5 million per airframe (completely random number) anyway, adding another million isn't that big a stickershock as it would be if you were just doing the million alone.  That sort of thing.  And even if it isn't much in the way of stealth, at least keeping your missile trucks hidden as well for a few minutes longer isn't a bad thing.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #486 on: 15 March 2019, 17:01:37 »
Surprised its not being planned as a drone if it is fire support for the Raptors.
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #487 on: 15 March 2019, 17:08:50 »
Surprised its not being planned as a drone if it is fire support for the Raptors.
That is NOT the only role for it. the F-15X is intended to replace the F-15C/D because their airframes are wearing out. It will do the same jobs that the C/D has been doing in addition to being a missile bus for the F-22/F35.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #488 on: 15 March 2019, 19:02:37 »
That is NOT the only role for it. the F-15X is intended to replace the F-15C/D because their airframes are wearing out. It will do the same jobs that the C/D has been doing in addition to being a missile bus for the F-22/F35.
Yeah.
There are also two proposed versions, one with strike capabilities and one without.

Kind of a strange journey for an aircraft designed with the ethos "not a pound for air to ground".

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #489 on: 15 March 2019, 19:25:23 »
That ethos explains so much about the Air Force...

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #490 on: 15 March 2019, 22:05:07 »
Look up the past history of the USAF in Vietnam, especially early on.  There's a reason the Fighter Mafia took over.

I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #491 on: 16 March 2019, 08:16:28 »
I dont understand that big pod under the Super Hornet.
The pod is big hung under the plane, the Super Hornet isnt really a Stealth plane, and the pod isnt stealthy.

Is it just to make 1 hard point turn into 4 or 6??
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hoosierhick

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #492 on: 16 March 2019, 08:33:58 »
I dont understand that big pod under the Super Hornet.
The pod is big hung under the plane, the Super Hornet isnt really a Stealth plane, and the pod isnt stealthy.

Is it just to make 1 hard point turn into 4 or 6??

I think the point of the pod is that it's stealthier (and maybe has less drag) than having all those bombs and missiles hanging out in the breeze. 

Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #493 on: 16 March 2019, 15:02:21 »
I think the point of the pod is that it's stealthier (and maybe has less drag) than having all those bombs and missiles hanging out in the breeze.

also, presuming well-designed hookups, easier to service and replace in a hot-swap environment.  cutting ground time between sorties is an obvious reason to adopt a modular pod system.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #494 on: 16 March 2019, 15:56:18 »
Just like the Omni-Aerospace fighter. Weapons pods for easy on and easy off.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #495 on: 16 March 2019, 18:26:50 »
plus, IIRC, the fighter normally cannot mount weapons on the centerline hard point, since that is fitted for fueltank and equipment pods like ECM. so the weapons pod would allow the fighter to carry additional munitions beyond what it normally would be capable of.

further, the pods would (with just some software updates in most cases) be compatible with other american aircraft. imagine slinging three of those pods below one of those F-15X's for example. one per wing and one centerline, replacing the tanks. that would bring the total AMRAAM count up to nearly 30. and since they are steathy(ish), you could sling one under each wing of the F-22 to triple its munition capacity with far less reduction in stealth that normal external munitions would cause. (one could also easily see them using the same frame to create external fueltanks with the same shape for similar increase in capability without complete loss of stealth.)

ultimately with projects like these it is often less about "how will this new addition make this one fighter super effective" and more about "ok we have the technology for X that will benefit multiple platforms. how do we piggyback it onto the next big fighter update and get the ball rolling?"
« Last Edit: 16 March 2019, 18:36:57 by glitterboy2098 »

I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #496 on: 17 March 2019, 04:58:25 »
I guess a upgraded F15X may work better then the possible of B1R Missile Truck. The B1 has be out of production for decades.

« Last Edit: 17 March 2019, 07:27:45 by I am Belch II »
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #497 on: 17 March 2019, 12:48:08 »
True, but the Air Force wants that thing just for the name alone...

Ghost0402

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #498 on: 17 March 2019, 19:02:14 »
It seems I was wrong about the F-15X carrying 20 missiles. The actual number is 22. It'll also have a 20,000 hour service life. 

With it's $27,000 per flight hour opreating cost, replacing F-15C/Ds with Xs would pay for itself in ten years.
Excellent.  We need something to compliment the F-22 besides the F-16 and F-35.
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grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #499 on: 18 March 2019, 08:29:16 »
I guess a upgraded F15X may work better then the possible of B1R Missile Truck. The B1 has be out of production for decades.
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #500 on: 18 March 2019, 08:54:25 »
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?
Speed, armour stealth, firepower - it was the Speedy one of the 3 US bombers. Which wasn't quite a great choice at the end of the day considerimg overall strategy and how events worked out... There just didn't seem a need for a really fast bomber.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #501 on: 18 March 2019, 11:55:52 »
Speed, armour stealth, firepower - it was the Speedy one of the 3 US bombers. Which wasn't quite a great choice at the end of the day considerimg overall strategy and how events worked out... There just didn't seem a need for a really fast bomber.

My understanding was the B1 was supposed to be the speedy nuke-dropper, part of why it was never involved with anything else was the difficulty of refitting the bays.

Sort of ironic was that both the B1 and the A-10 were based at Fairchild AFB outside Spokane . . . a plane the AF hung on to trying to find a mission and a plane the AF repeatedly tried to ditch not wanting the mission.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #502 on: 18 March 2019, 12:09:35 »
The USAF's assessment is that both the B-1 and A-10 aren't survivable enough. They want the A-10 dropped for the F-35, the B-1 for the B-21

The argument is that the A-10's vaunted armour is no longer as much defence as it used to be compared to stealth and ECM

While the B-1's "speed is life" concept was never really workable and far less so now with oodles of far more advanced SAMs around
« Last Edit: 18 March 2019, 12:28:31 by Kidd »

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #503 on: 18 March 2019, 12:43:22 »
It was the 60s ideal nuke delivery package- fast & NOE . . . its not the bomb truck the B-52 is, and it was expensive to convert the bays to anything else.  Tac Bomber roles got taken over by fighter/bombers- the last one I can remember being in wide use in the USAF was the F-111 which was like its ugly little brother.  Its debate-able if some of the f/bs that had token fighter abilities are really f/b or tac bombers.

Low, slow and in the weeds . . . armor still helps against ground fire and missile frags.  I have a laugh over the AF having to revive Vietnam-era birds for economic CAS for garrison troops.
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grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #504 on: 18 March 2019, 12:52:34 »
The USAF's assessment is that both the B-1 and A-10 aren't survivable enough. They want the A-10 dropped for the F-35, the B-1 for the B-21

The argument is that the A-10's vaunted armour is no longer as much defence as it used to be compared to stealth and ECM

While the B-1's "speed is life" concept was never really workable and far less so now with oodles of far more advanced SAMs around
If you believe Ben Rich's book, the B-1A was canceled because Carter was briefed on the stealth stuff coming down the pike and realized the Lancer was already obsolete.  Then Regan campaigned on restarting the B-1 line.  So when Regan won, he decided to keep that promise.

It was the 60s ideal nuke delivery package- fast & NOE . . . its not the bomb truck the B-52 is, and it was expensive to convert the bays to anything else.  Tac Bomber roles got taken over by fighter/bombers- the last one I can remember being in wide use in the USAF was the F-111 which was like its ugly little brother.  Its debate-able if some of the f/bs that had token fighter abilities are really f/b or tac bombers.

Low, slow and in the weeds . . . armor still helps against ground fire and missile frags.  I have a laugh over the AF having to revive Vietnam-era birds for economic CAS for garrison troops.

Bringing OV-10's back into service because they can't stand the idea of admitting that the A-10 is REALLY good at the CAS mission.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #505 on: 18 March 2019, 13:03:17 »
It was the 60s ideal nuke delivery package- fast & NOE . . . its not the bomb truck the B-52 is, and it was expensive to convert the bays to anything else.  Tac Bomber roles got taken over by fighter/bombers- the last one I can remember being in wide use in the USAF was the F-111 which was like its ugly little brother.  Its debate-able if some of the f/bs that had token fighter abilities are really f/b or tac bombers.

Low, slow and in the weeds . . . armor still helps against ground fire and missile frags.  I have a laugh over the AF having to revive Vietnam-era birds for economic CAS for garrison troops.
Yes the F-111 was in a similar position as the B-1.

Warning: personal uninformed view ahead.

The A-10 lies in an uncomfortable middle ground frankly. It's no longer survivable enough for peer conflict and much of its combat testimonials revolve around its use as an insurgency CAS. Which could be done even cheaper by the like of Broncos or Super Tucanos or Reaper drones. So why shouldn't it be replaced by Tucanos and Reapers and 35s?

If you believe Ben Rich's book, the B-1A was canceled because Carter was briefed on the stealth stuff coming down the pike and realized the Lancer was already obsolete.  Then Regan campaigned on restarting the B-1 line.  So when Regan won, he decided to keep that promise.
 
That's the generally accepted explanation, yes. As with all things we'll never truly know, eh?

Not that I'm casting doubt, just being philosophical.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #506 on: 18 March 2019, 13:43:20 »
So why shouldn't it be replaced by Tucanos and Reapers and 35s?

AFAIK, the A-10 is cheaper to operate on a per sortie basis than -35s though you are starting to run into lifetime other problems associate with trying to kill the airframe.  Broncos are cheaper- prop vs jet but they are also suffering from age and supply line.  Reapers?  Not the same payload but can probably be more places you just have the little problem of not having a body in the aircraft which allows it to be hijacked or spoofed.  The Fighter Mafia hates the lowly tac bomber (granted it was built for the Russian armor swarms) but does not want to yield that niche to the Army.  They would also hate to RFP and maintain a fleet of COIN tac bombers- something like a glorified crop duster that would lack all the latest bestest cutting edge toys.

Which is why having the Bronco rub their noses in it is so entertaining to me.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #507 on: 18 March 2019, 14:14:20 »
People keep bringing up the "35s can't plink technicals on a dime like the A-10 can" as justification to keep the A-10, when it should really be a justification for Tucanos.

If someone put their foot down and gave the USAF a choice between having NO F-35s versus having some F-35s and some Tucanos, I think they'd choose the former. But somehow the A-10 mafia won and it's neither.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe A-10s are necessary even for plinking Toyotas. They'd get to the CAS site faster than prop-driven can, I wonder if that's an important consideration.

grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #508 on: 18 March 2019, 14:24:45 »
Which could be done even cheaper by the like of Broncos or Super Tucanos or Reaper drones. So why shouldn't it be replaced by Tucanos and Reapers and 35s?
The F-35 lacks the loiter time and payload capacity that an A-10 brings to the CAS mission. While I have no data, my understanding of aerodynamics and thermo suggest that F-35s do not have terribly good performance or handling at low altitudes and speeds.  While can't speak to the F-35's ruggedness, it's a damn expensive airplane, and patching bullet holes AND maintaining stealth has got to be expensive.

I don't know enough about the Broncos or Super Tucanos to say much.  Reapers are optimized for high, slow, long flights.  Those long thin wings are not so great for aggressive maneuvers, like pulling a tight turn for a second attack run. They are also more susceptible weather, both aerodynamically and from a telecommunications perspective.

And while many of us are not, as you say, experts, I suspect that most people on this thread are aviation buffs and know quite a bit more than the average person. :-)
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #509 on: 18 March 2019, 14:29:39 »
@grimlock - I meant adopting Tucanos for insurgency work, F-35s for near-peer work.

And yeah I know there's an aerospace engineer or five around.