Mech design decisions that make no sense

[Kit deSummersville]

Hey Wierdo, would this be okay?

"The StormWolfBird doesn't have enough electrical outlets to use all it's waffle makers. It should have less waffle makers and more electrical outlets."

[Weirdo]

If you posted that in Fan Designs, yes.

[Orin J.]

Now i'm wondering what the specs for mech-sized waffle irons are.

[Sabelkatten]

You put two Nova Prime on top of each other, pour the batter in between, and have both of the alpha strike. Instant Waffle! :D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You put two Nova Prime on top of each other, pour the batter in between, and have both of the alpha strike. Instant Waffle Charcoal! :D

Fixed that for you.

[Sartris]

Now i'm wondering what the specs for mech-sized waffle irons are.

Depends on if you use the old fashioned 25th primitive cast iron or star league plasteel

[R.Tempest]

 Back to Narc's for a moment. Don't have access to my rulebooks at the moment and my memory is iffy on some things. Is there such a thing as an Arrow IV that can home in on a Narc? Also, if the section on a mech that has been hit by a Narc is destroyed I assume the Narc is destroyed as well?
 Re: mech waffle irons. Don't forget the coolant truck loaded with maple syrup.

[Firesprocket]

Back to Narc's for a moment. Don't have access to my rulebooks at the moment and my memory is iffy on some things. Is there such a thing as an Arrow IV that can home in on a Narc?

Yes, but not in a conventional sense.  The Nemesis iNarc pod.  I'm traveling and only have access to an older version of TW at the moment but this is the gist of it:

A successful attack tags the target. Units friendly to a tagged
target that fire Artemis IV-capable missiles, semi-guided missiles
or Narc-equipped missiles will attack the Nemesis-tagged unit
instead of their enemy, if it is along the LOS between the attacker
and the target, and LOS exists between the attacker and the
Nemesis-tagged unit and the Nemesis-tagged unit is not underwater.
Apply a +1 modifier to such unintentional attacks, starting
with the closest Nemesis-tagged friendly if more than one unit
meets the criteria. Nemesis pods have no effect against infantry

Also, if the section on a mech that has been hit by a Narc is destroyed I assume the Narc is destroyed as well?

Correct.

[R.Tempest]

 Arrow not Artemis.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think that there's any form of NARC or iNARC pod that attracts homing artillery.

Sounds like something that would be incredibly broken if there were.

[Sir Chaos]

Depends on if you use the old fashioned 25th primitive cast iron or star league plasteel

You need ClanTech batter, not that inferior Succession Wars era stuff.

[RifleMech]

You need ClanTech batter, not that inferior Succession Wars era stuff.

Wouldn't ClanTech be for Belgian Waffles?

[Colt Ward]

While THAT would make things more interesting, I think you are mis-reading 'semi-guided' . . . especially since it uses the plural 'missiles' when discussing it.  Since its a ammo type and not a function, I would think it should be capitalized like Narc & Artemis but eh . . .

[SCC]

I wouldn't be surprised if early on when the systems were put into the game there was a fear that it could throw off game balance. Look at the Kintaro as the early poster child of Narc delivery. It is fairly mobile, but not TOO mobile at 5/8. It takes some skill to have it dash in at just the right moment to deliver it's NARC, and you don't need to be some super savvy player to counter it. I think it is telling that the first in game NARC delivery units weren't VTOLS moving at 9/14.

The designers probably had visions of jerk players hiding six LRM carriers behind a hill and using a lance of super fast moving VTOL/Hover NARC delivery units turning the game into "Missile Tech".

And this is different then any other jerk player tactic how?

Beyond that the actual fix is simple: Make AMS effective against every missile attack against a unit for a turn. This probably still needs to happen as it would make taking AMS a LOT more attractive.

[TigerShark]

That's a perfectly valid tactic. It's the entire reason the system exists. Nothing "jerk" about it, anymore than staying at 22 hex distance with a gauss rifle is a "jerk" tactic.

[pat_hdx]

And this is different then any other jerk player tactic how?

Beyond that the actual fix is simple: Make AMS effective against every missile attack against a unit for a turn. This probably still needs to happen as it would make taking AMS a LOT more attractive.

Oh I don't have a problem with it per se.

I was just trying to give my two cents to another user's question pertaining to  as why a lot of the early NARC deployment units weren't that optimal... I suspect the game designers at the time designed the CANNON units as not too effective to keep "over all" play fun for most players, in case they had introduced a weapon that could lead to unbalanced game play. I think we have to remember that when NARC was introduced you didn't have the potential ease of player feed back and play testing that you do now days and they may have wanted to be a bit cautious with NARC.

Given that TPTB have always given us the ability to build our own units,  players were free to build better delivery units if they wished.

I like NARC and as stated earlier my Megamek games use some relatively fast moving NARC deployment unit.

If I played a lot of tabletop I'm SURE I would be one of those dudes trying to make plenty of use of indirect fire and NARC. Heck, I've been experimenting with iNarc.

[glitterboy2098]

given that i know of at least one novel where Arrow-IV missiles did home in on a Narc pod explicitly, i can understand some confuction. ("Close Quarters" specifically. a Caballero's Raven anbushes some of the ghost regiment mechs in an alleyway, tagging a whitworth with a narc pod then the author spends the next paragraph describing how the arrow-IV missile homes in on the pod and takes the mech's head off. always has been a 'wtf?' moment in the novel, especially since using TAG as it should have would have been even more effective, since the raven wouldn't have revealed its presence the way it did firing the Narc..)

[Greatclub]

I have trouble imagining a world where the designers were afraid of pre-buff narc. It's significant, but one SRM or 2-4 LRM per hit isn't a game-breaker given the hoops you have to jump through to get it.

[TigerShark]

One thing that's always bugged me is how the Clans have their weapons development set up. Given that the warrior caste has had overwhelming control since the Golden Century, one would think that weapons would be geared toward the smaller-scale combat that warriors prefer. Not that every battle allows for zellbrigen to take place, but a glory hound ascending to the Khanship (which, frankly, is every Clan warrior by default) would probably not be keen on signing off on weapons development which didn't allow for bragging rights.

Now you may think that means "no artillery," but it would also mean "no pulse, no targeting computers, etc." If anything, I would think Clan soldiers would attempt to fight with the most-handicapped weapon system possible. i.e.: if one Clanner is using an ER Large Laser, the other Clanner would bid down to a Spheroid-vintage, standard Large Laser to show him up. In the same way that one would "tie one hand behind their back" in boxing to humiliate the opponent. I don't believe that Clan weapons would have developed as far as they had given this attitude being the prevailing mode of thought.

Just my $0.02.

[massey]

One thing that's always bugged me is how the Clans have their weapons development set up. Given that the warrior caste has had overwhelming control since the Golden Century, one would think that weapons would be geared toward the smaller-scale combat that warriors prefer. Not that every battle allows for zellbrigen to take place, but a glory hound ascending to the Khanship (which, frankly, is every Clan warrior by default) would probably not be keen on signing off on weapons development which didn't allow for bragging rights.

Now you may think that means "no artillery," but it would also mean "no pulse, no targeting computers, etc." If anything, I would think Clan soldiers would attempt to fight with the most-handicapped weapon system possible. i.e.: if one Clanner is using an ER Large Laser, the other Clanner would bid down to a Spheroid-vintage, standard Large Laser to show him up. In the same way that one would "tie one hand behind their back" in boxing to humiliate the opponent. I don't believe that Clan weapons would have developed as far as they had given this attitude being the prevailing mode of thought.

Just my $0.02.

Nah.  You still wanna win.  Bragging rights don't matter if you get your ass kicked.  The guys who thought they were too good to use Clan Large Pulse got killed, and as a result they didn't pass on their genetic material.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Clans are stupid.  They're often hypocrites, but they aren't stupid.

[TigerShark]

Nah.  You still wanna win.  Bragging rights don't matter if you get your ass kicked.  The guys who thought they were too good to use Clan Large Pulse got killed, and as a result they didn't pass on their genetic material.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Clans are stupid.  They're often hypocrites, but they aren't stupid.

"Stupid" is exactly how I'd describe them, frankly. They discount technologies like C3, Nova CEWS, and waive the presence of conventional forces -- Things with obvious and overwhelming strategic value. So if you're going to do that, then how much credit can you get for firing at -3 to-hit beyond your opponent's effective firing range? It's very "this is Clan, this is not...for some reason." I understand the book reason for things like C3 -- It doesn't allow any one warrior to get the glory. But not every Clan fight is one-on-one. Larger engagements were fought without the expectations of zellbrigen, beyond the batchall. So much so that systems like Arrow-IV and TAG continued production continuously since Kerensky's days. And no.. this wasn't just "for bandits." :)

[massey]

"Stupid" is exactly how I'd describe them, frankly.

And that's why I think you're having a problem with it.  You've got a stereotyped version of the Clans in your head, you've decided they're stupid, and then you think they're acting out of character unless they act as a stupid person would.  That's the wrong way to look at it.

They discount technologies like C3, Nova CEWS, and waive the presence of conventional forces -- Things with obvious and overwhelming strategic value. So if you're going to do that, then how much credit can you get for firing at -3 to-hit beyond your opponent's effective firing range? It's very "this is Clan, this is not...for some reason." I understand the book reason for things like C3 -- It doesn't allow any one warrior to get the glory. But not every Clan fight is one-on-one. Larger engagements were fought without the expectations of zellbrigen, beyond the batchall. So much so that systems like Arrow-IV and TAG continued production continuously since Kerensky's days. And no.. this wasn't just "for bandits." :)

I don't think they discount tech like C3 or the others, they understand the value of them.  But it's not necessarily something they'd think to develop themselves.  Plus with how easy it is for the Clans to add ECM to their mechs, the value is pretty limited to them.  A lot of their "support" tech is a refinement of Star League stuff.  It didn't require imagination or innovation to create.  It's just a case of smaller, faster, lighter.

[Starfury]

Some Clans value combined arms, such as Hell's Horses or Blood Spirit. Given the superiority of Clan tech, especially when it comes to infantry arms, they can make some killer non PA troops and vehicles.  As for TAG, artillery, etc  how the Clans use force multipliers depends on the Clan, the type of battle, and the time period. Short Trials of a Trinary or smaller vs each other is simple unit on unit combat. In larger battles, especially like Tukkayid, Coventry and so on, the Clans made use of artillery and TAG, along with various levels of flexibility in Zellbrigen.  So they can adapt, as the current Clans in the Inner Sphere and the Periphery have. 

The Falcons have embraced the use of DFA and an increased use of jumping mechs with their version of the "Mongol Doctrine".  Clan Wolf continues to be masters of adaptive zellbrigen and longer term strategy.  Clan Ghost Bear has built an entire new state out of the Free Rasalhauge Republic and their occupation zone, and made it pretty democratic/safe for a Clan governed territory.  They're even building Warships, something only one or two Clans ever did in the history of the Clans.  And so on. 

The reason why the Clans seem stupid is that they adapt slowly, due to a culture focused on genetic superiority and reproduction through limited warfare. Tukkayid, the Annihilation of Smoke Jaguar, and the Jihad taught them to speed up their adaptation, or die. Arguably the most powerful Clan is now run by its merchant caste, and has territory in at least two Successor States, which is Sea Fox.  The warriors serve to reinforce their economic and technical advantage, as well as gaining genetic survivability via conflict as barter based mercs (Shattered Fortress shows this well with the various Aimags negotiating with Davion and Marik for supporting their Houses.)

[Kit deSummersville]

I read it twice just now, what's your point?

Because it seems to suggest that the 4D was a downgrade resulting from Comstar's inability to replicate the stealth systems, but the Master Unit List indicates it was in general service with the SLDF since 2660 (including in regular formations), and operation Klondike even turned out a royal variant of the non-stealth 4D.

In fact, those two data points suggest the 4C was the only elite stealthy hunter killer of the bunch, while the 4D (and later the 4Db) was more of a general service mech.

Whoops, my bad. It's in TacOps in the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield entry.

Seen historically as the crown jewel in the design of the Exterminator BattleMech, it is commonly misbelieved that all Exterminator models sported the LPS system, when in fact only a fraction of those units were so equipped-virtually all of which were lost to the Succession Wars.

[grimlock1]

Oh I don't have a problem with it per se.

I was just trying to give my two cents to another user's question pertaining to  as why a lot of the early NARC deployment units weren't that optimal... I suspect the game designers at the time designed the CANNON units as not too effective to keep "over all" play fun for most players, in case they had introduced a weapon that could lead to unbalanced game play. I think we have to remember that when NARC was introduced you didn't have the potential ease of player feed back and play testing that you do now days and they may have wanted to be a bit cautious with NARC.

Given that TPTB have always given us the ability to build our own units,  players were free to build better delivery units if they wished.

I like NARC and as stated earlier my Megamek games use some relatively fast moving NARC deployment unit.

If I played a lot of tabletop I'm SURE I would be one of those dudes trying to make plenty of use of indirect fire and NARC. Heck, I've been experimenting with iNarc.

I can't discount the rational you're proposing, but I am having a bit of trouble seeing it.  At the time, NARC was no better than Artemis IV.  I would not be at all surprised if there were a few games at FASA where Artemis and NARC both offered TH bonuses, and I can understand them feeling that was a bit too much for regular play, but lets throw it in as Artemis V in Tac Handbook.

One thing that's always bugged me is how the Clans have their weapons development set up. Given that the warrior caste has had overwhelming control since the Golden Century, one would think that weapons would be geared toward the smaller-scale combat that warriors prefer. Not that every battle allows for zellbrigen to take place, but a glory hound ascending to the Khanship (which, frankly, is every Clan warrior by default) would probably not be keen on signing off on weapons development which didn't allow for bragging rights.

Now you may think that means "no artillery," but it would also mean "no pulse, no targeting computers, etc." If anything, I would think Clan soldiers would attempt to fight with the most-handicapped weapon system possible. i.e.: if one Clanner is using an ER Large Laser, the other Clanner would bid down to a Spheroid-vintage, standard Large Laser to show him up. In the same way that one would "tie one hand behind their back" in boxing to humiliate the opponent. I don't believe that Clan weapons would have developed as far as they had given this attitude being the prevailing mode of thought.

Just my $0.02.

I think the no arty-malarky comes from the focus on the individual.  Sure pulse lasers or targeting computers may be "cheaty" but I studied better than you, trained better, planned better, bid better, and ultimately used the tools at my disposal to fight better.

As to the development level, that just comes down to the Clans never lost the plans to make the machines to etch the control chips for pulse modulators. It wasn't just mechs and vehicles  and the like getting destroyed in the SW that dragged the SW down.  It wasn't wasn't even loosing the plans to an XL engines, etc.  It was loosing the plans to the machines that made the XL engines.  The Apollo program took nearly a decade. If there was a unified, sustained  directive to NASA, "Put men back on the moon, ASAP.  Here are the keys to Ft. Knox. Go," it would still take 5+ years, even if we just dusted off all the Apollo plans.  Trust me, NASA has that stuff in a cabinet someplace. We would need to rebuild the factories that built the Saturn 5, rebuild the factories that processed all that fuel, and boy were those engines thirsty. Heck, we would have to rebuild the factories to produce those ancient, so-called computers!  In many cases, all those plans may well have been lost.

Ask any materials scientist at in the 3020 graduating class of NAIS what endo steel or ferro fiber was, and they could tell you in a heart beat. They could describe how it was made. But when you ask them how to build the tools to make that complex composite material, and you'll start hearing crickets.

Just given population size and Linus' Law, if the IS had been able to keep building on the old Star League's knowledge base, then by the time the Clans showed up, the tech miss match would have probably swung the other way.

[RifleMech]

Just given population size and Linus' Law, if the IS had been able to keep building on the old Star League's knowledge base, then by the time the Clans showed up, the tech miss match would have probably swung the other way.

That would be interesting.

[Sartris]

WE ARE HERE TO CONQ... SHIT OW RUN AWAY!

[RifleMech]

On second thought lets not go to the Inner Sphere. Tis a silly place.

[Takiro]

For those interested we have just begun an Optimize the Locust project over on OBT that aims to make more sense out of your favorite Mechs and it will be followed by more. If your interested ;)

https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3777.0

[Scotty]

For those interested we have just begun an Optimize the Locust project over on OBT that aims to make more sense out of your favorite Mechs and it will be followed by more. If your interested ;)

https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3777.0

But.... The Royal Locust already exists.