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Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 30242 times)

Sartris

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #240 on: 18 March 2019, 18:21:19 »
Didn’t know the word’s super weapons included a time machine

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #241 on: 18 March 2019, 18:32:57 »
That's just a relic of real world publication dates, and what is basically an incomplete retcon of tech reintroduction.

Lethal Heritage, the first book in the Clan saga, was published a few months before TRO 2750 and about 7 or 8 months before TRO 3050.  The novel had the Clans hit an Inner Sphere that had recovered zero advanced technology.  Every unit was using standard 3025 tech, because that's all that existed at that time in the real world.  While Star League tech was supposed to be more advanced, nobody had ever published what it was supposed to be able to do.

For several years in real world time, the new tech intro dates were right around 3050.  Experimental tech was shoved into production to meet the Clan onslaught.  Much later, the decision was made to backdate a lot of the tech intro times, so that the process appeared more gradual.  That's why you've got the conflict in when certain pieces of equipment became available.

And it's hardly the only bit of conflict that exists from the time: there are multiple instances of the Dire Wolf (the warship that was being used as the flagship for the invasion) being referred to as a dropship, for example.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #242 on: 18 March 2019, 18:43:05 »
It was still a bit fuzzy in the original TRO 3050. The Combine was supposed to have fully mature Hatamotos for the war of 3039, and they captured the plans for both the upgraded Jagermech and the upgraded Victor during the same war. (TRO 3050 upgrade confirms the upgraded victor part, but changes the jagermech to House Davion handing over the plans during the clan war).

Even the Blood of Kerensky trilogy doesn't really support the idea of these new designs suddenly springing into being. They started appearing fairly early into the clan invasion, which means the development time and testing had already been done. You don't go from first principles on weapons and systems you haven't understood in centuries to full production in six months. Roughly ten years from the first field tests to full production isn't particularly unreasonable.

In some respects all the later stuff did was clean up the mess left by prior books. The only thing we're really left to worry about is victor being amazed by clan heat sinks, which would still be pretty amazing even compared to inner sphere models. Especially if you're a mech pilot and not an engineer.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #243 on: 18 March 2019, 19:06:00 »
Victor gave off an impression that he might not have been inclined to keep track of new things in reports he got sent, too.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #244 on: 18 March 2019, 22:46:51 »
And it's hardly the only bit of conflict that exists from the time: there are multiple instances of the Dire Wolf (the warship that was being used as the flagship for the invasion) being referred to as a dropship, for example.

I don't recall that.  I recall that Khelan thought it was a massive dropship like a Behemoth because it was under "gravity" and and the elevator ride was oddly long.  He probably wasn't even aware that a jumpship could exist that could generate that "gravity" like a dropship could.  Warships had been gone from the Inner Sphere consciousness and lexicon for some time at this point that the idea would be like someone here waking up on the Enterprise, Galactica, or Stargate's F-304.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #245 on: 18 March 2019, 23:27:43 »
Throughout the trilogy it's labeled a dropship.  It's never once referred to as a warship, even in the internal thoughts of people who should know better.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #246 on: 19 March 2019, 00:21:41 »
That's just a relic of real world publication dates, and what is basically an incomplete retcon of tech reintroduction.

Lethal Heritage, the first book in the Clan saga, was published a few months before TRO 2750 and about 7 or 8 months before TRO 3050.  The novel had the Clans hit an Inner Sphere that had recovered zero advanced technology.  Every unit was using standard 3025 tech, because that's all that existed at that time in the real world.  While Star League tech was supposed to be more advanced, nobody had ever published what it was supposed to be able to do.

For several years in real world time, the new tech intro dates were right around 3050.  Experimental tech was shoved into production to meet the Clan onslaught.  Much later, the decision was made to backdate a lot of the tech intro times, so that the process appeared more gradual.  That's why you've got the conflict in when certain pieces of equipment became available.


I'm going to disagree here.

Pretty sure that the 20 Year Update predates those 3 & it mentions the IS advancing from "Freezers" to true DHS in the early 40's as well as unlocking the Helm Core back at the NAIS in the 4th SW & we get TRO:2750 in universe in 3048.

Again, having a couple production runs from 3048 to 3050 when production runs back then were around a dozen mechs a year isn't going to give you crap for refitting the entire AFFC.

Those few cool toys that were in production were all being horded by the Dav Guards or Royal Guards and those units were not sitting out on the Periphery/FRR border where we see Victor.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #247 on: 19 March 2019, 08:03:44 »
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #248 on: 19 March 2019, 12:01:25 »
I believe it was the armor that got suffered. You want CASE, sure lose half a ton...

Most Pilots wouldn't want to lose a weapon even as simple as a small laser.

TT

If offered the chance of survivable ammo explosions -- and if we're going by fluff, un-CASEd ammo explosions very frequently are lethal, even with autoeject systems enabled -- or keeping my least effective weapon system, I'd think I'd choose survivability.

On the table, you're right though. Losing the LT means fighting with one medium laser, so it isn't really good sense to have only CASE on a Hunch at the cost of ammo, unless you're in a campaign.
« Last Edit: 19 March 2019, 12:03:46 by Apocal »

CVB

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #249 on: 19 March 2019, 12:10:00 »
Again, having a couple production runs from 3048 to 3050 when production runs back then were around a dozen mechs a year isn't going to give you crap for refitting the entire AFFC.

Not so sure about the size of production runs by the end of the 3040s. After all, three hundred Dabokus in 3036-3039 were described as a "short test-run" by a single production line (TRO3039 p. 234).

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #250 on: 19 March 2019, 12:34:39 »
When you figure . . . I think? that each House is given around 100 mech regiments for the national forces (exclude the small FRR & SIC), and give them the normal organization of a regiment being three battalions of 36 mechs.  It does not take into account that a few have battalions with four companies, some regiments have four battalions or a regiment has a command company or double company.  But three battalions of 36 mechs gives you a national force of 10,800 mechs per house, does not include mercenaries, noble guards, corp sec, or planetary militia for wealthy/important planets (though militia may also include noble guard) but those forces are not going to be in the weight class or repair that national forces will maintain.  It also does not include the academy training battalions- not talking about NAIS or Sun Zhang cadre, but more like the Nagelring training mechs like the one Phelan took to go looking for avalanche victims.

So that 300 Dabokus for the DCMS over three years?  The production run was under 1% annually of the book strength of the House's national forces while they were rebuilding from the 4SW and Dragoon brawl.  I would be willing to bet that not all of them ended up in DCMS hands either.
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Sartris

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #251 on: 19 March 2019, 13:30:40 »
also the clan invasion scenarios i would run benefiting from finishing the job wouldn't care. if the numbers mattered at all they'd be codified. 

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #252 on: 19 March 2019, 13:50:31 »
also the clan invasion scenarios i would run benefiting from finishing the job wouldn't care. if the numbers mattered at all they'd be codified.
I agree Sartis, in fact I posited in the Apollo article that it was a replacement for Archers and other missile fire support heavies & assaults that were stripped from units not heading to the Clan front to bulk out the regiments going to face the Wolves & Falcons.  It would also make sense for all the upgrade kits to head that direction as well as any of the advanced designs that could be spared to bulk the deploying units without stripping them too far.  Question is, do you give a warrior piloting the family Marauder 3R in the 9th FedCom & headed to Twycross the Marauder 5D that the FS has assigned to Mechwarrior Joe Bob of the 1st Robinson Rangers?  While the weapons are mostly the same, the DHS and jump jets alter the mech's tactical profile.

Yeah, some of the Tukayyid scenarios get really interesting with random ComStar forces using the 'new' (lol, TRO3055 & '58) Star League designs and Royals.  Playing in forests and canyons when the Clan force is running into Pillagers, Emperors, Shootists, Royal Black Knights, Royal Sentinels and Royal Von Luckners can really hammer a Clan force- especially since I have played them using MM's double blind option.

Hmm, for all that discussion about 'advanced' designs in the Invasion- didn't ComStar have the SL stuff in the novel?
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CVB

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #253 on: 19 March 2019, 14:01:04 »
So that 300 Dabokus for the DCMS over three years?  The production run was under 1% annually of the book strength of the House's national forces while they were rebuilding from the 4SW and Dragoon brawl.  I would be willing to bet that not all of them ended up in DCMS hands either.
I just compared the established canon test-run of 300 Dabokus with the claim that production runs were around a dozen 'mechs in 3048-3050.
When a single line can churn out ~100 'mechs of a new design p.a., it's hard to imagine that all the other lines were stuck in their 3025 capacities.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #254 on: 19 March 2019, 14:49:06 »
I'd say that half of those lines are being upgraded, another third offline do to repairs from last war and the rest operating @ or near 50% overcapacity to handle the slack.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #255 on: 19 March 2019, 14:55:22 »
Production Run does not mean a single 'line' but instead how many are produced total at one go before paused or retooled.  Consider WWII with Shermans . . . ten different factories (or lines) building the tanks all to the same specs and all with interchangeable parts.  But production would halt for a bit to incorporate a re-design or upgrade which is why we get the different versions of the Sherman as the war went on- particularly after they had unit testing (cause grunts break stuff in ways designers never imagine) and combat testing/experience.  So (just pulling numbers out the arse) the USAA orders Shermans, faucet is turned on!, and starts production . . . . and stops production of that 4A version after 600 tanks from those 10 factories b/c someone introduced a improvement in the engine that increased the life span of the oil filters, primarily desert environments b/c of operations in N Africa.  Thus a new production run of the 4A1 which means the production run of the 4A is done, no more ever made!  The the engine maker does something to the engine and gets another 50-75 HP, new production run of the 4A2!  Meanwhile combat testing says the Sherman needs a better gun and the pointy heads finally delivered so that 4A2 production run gets cut short, just 110 tanks and the start of a new production run, the 4B starts!

For a canon example, NFP rebuilt their Warhammer line on Tematagi to make -7Ms and was producing 16 a month after the first month which was considered a impressive set of numbers.  Along with quality control, its how NFP beat Ronin to license the -8D model in the FWL.  They started production Nov 1 '67 and shut down that spring on the production run of the -7Ms to retool to the newly licensed -8D model after just a few months- thus ends the production run of -7Ms on Tematagi.  The production run of -8Ds started in the spring of '69 . . . though the factory was obliterated in March, so who knows if/how many of that run was made.  Btw, it means the -7M was built at a rate of 192 for the year from that factory.

We also hear about major & minor factories, with I think the definition being a major factory is 5 or 6 lines- sometimes producing the same thing while other times each producing different mechs.  DefHes on Hesperus?  Major factory with a lot of lines even in 3025 though still not producing what it was during the Star League.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #256 on: 19 March 2019, 16:07:23 »
Quote from TRO3039:
Quote
A short test-run of 300 was produced before the line was closed down and retooled.
So those 300 seem to be from a single production line, not several or even multiple factories.

All I'm arguing is that we shouldn't automatically assume production runs to be about a dozen 'mechs anymore in the late fourties/early fifties when there are examples of test runs in the hundreds a decade earlier.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #257 on: 19 March 2019, 16:13:15 »
Throughout the trilogy it's labeled a dropship.  It's never once referred to as a warship, even in the internal thoughts of people who should know better.

I recall them discussing things while on a dropship, but never referring to the Dire Wolf itself as a dropship, aside from Phelan's early internal assumptions.  Even when the Rasalhague fighters were attacking it and they hit the bridge of the jumpship and blew the Khan off the bridge.

While I admit to having not read them for some time, I do note those irregularities, and was aware of the differences when I read it the first time.  Yes, I had Battlespace and TRO 3057 before I read any of the Kerensky Trilogy, so such would have stood out and stuck in my craw.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #258 on: 19 March 2019, 16:56:43 »
Quote from TRO3039:So those 300 seem to be from a single production line, not several or even multiple factories.

All I'm arguing is that we shouldn't automatically assume production runs to be about a dozen 'mechs anymore in the late fourties/early fifties when there are examples of test runs in the hundreds a decade earlier.

Its not that the test or production run is dozens- though a test run would be, you only build a few prototypes- but that the new technology would not saturate the old units.  I gave generic numbers, but think of that . . . 100 regiments which would mean that each one would get 3 of the 'new mech' on average which assumes that all of them went to the national forces without any finding their way into private hands.  It means to maintain that average none were lost to pirates, raids or became a hanger queen immediately.  A Highlander and Dobuku are both damaged, which one do you pick as the hanger queen?
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #259 on: 19 March 2019, 17:38:43 »
Yes, from one line. However there are multiple lines, at multiple factories in each major realm. When production output post-Helm can be increased so much that a single production line can deliver ~100 new design assault 'mechs per year by the end of the thirties (almost as much as the famed automated Valkyrie light 'mech plant could do in 3025), the yearly output of all the lines of a Successor State combined should easily reach high three or even low four digit numbers by the early fifties. That would mean a yearly influx of ~10% new construction by 3050 in the DC's case.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #260 on: 19 March 2019, 18:01:28 »
Except the constant state of war and the slow down in all the lines (ERML, ES, FF, etc) that feed that . . . and a production run, which is from all sources when listed like that, is not a single factory line.  A production run is like my example of the Sherman- 10 factories!- produced that tank to meet the Allied demand, so each model had a production run which included production from all the factories producing that model.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #261 on: 19 March 2019, 19:03:00 »
Minor point... it's "hangar queen", not "hanger queen".  I just couldn't take it anymore...  :P

CVB

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #262 on: 20 March 2019, 08:48:49 »
Except the constant state of war and the slow down in all the lines (ERML, ES, FF, etc) that feed that . . . and a production run, which is from all sources when listed like that, is not a single factory line.  A production run is like my example of the Sherman- 10 factories!- produced that tank to meet the Allied demand, so each model had a production run which included production from all the factories producing that model.


TRO3039 disagrees:
Quote
A short test-run of 300 was produced before the line was closed down and retooled.
(Emphasis mine)
the line - singular. We have no indication at all that the Daboku was ever produced anywhere else than at New Samarkand.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #263 on: 21 March 2019, 23:15:19 »
No one should put any stock in the production numbers that have been printed, in any book, ever.
The writers certainly don't.
Production goes at the speed of plot.


As for the Hunchback 5M, it's actually a great design. The 5 rounds ensures the Hunchy won't fight too long (a common problem) and a well-informed enemy might stop shooting it once it's down to 1 or 2 rounds remaining. Yes, there's some tonnage wasted on heatsinks, but whatever. Certainly not a heinous crime, and it gives people a reason to *not* shoot you with infernos.
And from a meta perspective it's great since it's so easy to improve upon.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #264 on: 22 March 2019, 06:14:06 »
As for the Hunchback 5M, it's actually a great design. The 5 rounds ensures the Hunchy won't fight too long (a common problem) and a well-informed enemy might stop shooting it once it's down to 1 or 2 rounds remaining. Yes, there's some tonnage wasted on heatsinks, but whatever. Certainly not a heinous crime, and it gives people a reason to *not* shoot you with infernos.

And having so little ammo limits any possibility of catastrophic explosions especially thanks to the super cool profile created by its enormous double heat sinkage which is handy if it goes walking on the sun or has to fight an enemy while standing in lava.

You sir should run for office!

Respectfully I disagree, I was able to EndoSteel the structure, strip up the excess heat sinks, and use the old Magna 250 Fusion Engine from the TBT-5N Trebuchet to incorporate 10 Double Heat Sinks all within the power plant while increasing its speed now 5/8. This helps this venerable trooper deliver its short range weapon payload the old reliable AC/20 now equipped with ten shots for twice the effectiveness of the initial improved model. Not only does a CASE protect the pilot but nine and half tons of ferro-fibrous armor offers maximum defense against any oncoming enemy fire. Finally three Medium Lasers supplement the massive autocannon nicely and we still can't overheat (18 max).

There you have it a fine Level 2 3050 upgrade that stays true to its design principles and creates a formidable platform in any setting.

And from a meta perspective it's great since it's so easy to improve upon.

Yup I can see my campaign working out fine... ;)
« Last Edit: 22 March 2019, 06:16:40 by Takiro »

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #265 on: 22 March 2019, 09:16:29 »
And having so little ammo limits any possibility of catastrophic explosions especially thanks to the super cool profile created by its enormous double heat sinkage

Exactly, which is useful since infernoes are a thing.
I dont remember the last time a hunchback I ran lasted long enough to fire all 10 shots.


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You sir should run for office!

Thankew!


Quote
Respectfully I disagree, I was able to EndoSteel the structure, strip up the excess heat sinks, and use the old Magna 250 Fusion Engine from the TBT-5N Trebuchet to incorporate 10 Double Heat Sinks all within the power plant while increasing its speed now 5/8. This helps this venerable trooper deliver its short range weapon payload the old reliable AC/20 now equipped with ten shots for twice the effectiveness of the initial improved model. Not only does a CASE protect the pilot but nine and half tons of ferro-fibrous armor offers maximum defense against any oncoming enemy fire. Finally three Medium Lasers supplement the massive autocannon nicely and we still can't overheat (18 max).

That is a better config, but an internal structure and engine swap are the most conplex and expensive modifications you can do, so goes well beyond an easy 3050 upgrade.


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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #266 on: 22 March 2019, 13:11:00 »
That is a better config, but an internal structure and engine swap are the most conplex and expensive modifications you can do, so goes well beyond an easy 3050 upgrade.

True dat, I had to fluff my arse of for that my friend but it was worth it.  ;)

Actually the EndoSteel was what I would describe as a reach on my model but I was really proud of my discovery of the Magna 250 from the Trebuchet which it was manufactured right along side of.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2019, 13:26:42 by Takiro »

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #267 on: 28 March 2019, 09:38:40 »
Do the difference between artwork and record sheet fit into this category?
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #268 on: 28 March 2019, 09:40:26 »
Do the difference between artwork and record sheet fit into this category?
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No, art is the lowest level of canon.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #269 on: 28 March 2019, 11:57:25 »
In order to qualify, it would have to be artwork that was massively off compared to the mech.  Beyond even "weapon pods don't match the record sheet locations" and into "confusing an Orion with a Stalker."

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