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Author Topic: What mechs would be family heirlooms?  (Read 2623 times)

Greatclub

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #90 on: 01 July 2019, 18:22:42 »

A guy who dumps his Crusader's ammo as soon as that Locust comes running towards him is going to raise eyebrows.  Why is he doing that?  But taking LRM shots on 9s and 10s is probably standard operating procedure for a Crusader pilot.  Everybody knows he's got a torso bomb and he wants those bins empty before he takes any real damage.  Nobody is going to blame him for that.

9s & 10s, yes. But he specified 11s and 12s. That is wasting ammo on the same level as dumping it. 
« Last Edit: 01 July 2019, 18:29:12 by Greatclub »

Daryk

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #91 on: 01 July 2019, 18:32:50 »
Depends on the target... 11s and 12s against something really hard to hit (like a Spider) might just be worth it.

massey

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #92 on: 01 July 2019, 18:47:56 »
9s & 10s, yes. But he specified 11s and 12s. That is wasting ammo on the same level as dumping it.

I'm the guy who said it initially.  My point is that there's a "safe" way to operate a mech where you really minimize the chance of ammo explosion.  I don't know whether it's taking shots at 9s and 10s, or 11s and 12s, but I do know that there's a point at which the life expectancy of the Crusader goes way up.  Whatever that point is, that's what normal operating procedure becomes.

I would imagine that for many worlds, and many engagements, battles are going to be a lot like that scene from Braveheart.  The nobles take the field, they negotiate, then one side leaves without a shot being fired.  Now that wouldn't be the case all the time -- sometimes you gotta fight.  But if you show up for a battle, and you have a lance and they have a company, and nobody else is around?  As long as you aren't hated blood enemies, you withdraw from the field and they go raid that munitions depot.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #93 on: 01 July 2019, 21:18:59 »
Really? Source please. Ver interested!

It was about the limited warfare following the destruction inflicted by the 2nd Succession War: it was very hard to even field an operational mech at all, ammo shortages and inability to repair damage were both pretty common, so mechs were often fielded with damage and partial ammo loads.  It's mentioned in various places, someone with a more extensive collection of older sourcebooks than I do might be able to tell you where to look.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #94 on: 01 July 2019, 21:23:26 »
those conditions were part of the reason the 3rd succession war dragged on so long and was so low intensity.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #95 on: 01 July 2019, 21:25:40 »
IIRC, there were entire battles where no one on either side actually fired a shot, it was done with nothing but maneuvering, with the side that found itself outmaneuvered simply conceding the field.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #96 on: 01 July 2019, 22:27:50 »
IIRC, there were entire battles where no one on either side actually fired a shot, it was done with nothing but maneuvering, with the side that found itself outmaneuvered simply conceding the field.
no that was in the 2400's  when the (then new) Ares conventions were at full effect.

Caedis Animus

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #97 on: 01 July 2019, 23:48:35 »
no that was in the 2400's  when the (then new) Ares conventions were at full effect.
I mean, I could imagine some forces still probably did that without actually saying they did even in the third SW.
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Sartris

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #98 on: 01 July 2019, 23:56:29 »
Yeah you could see two mercs facing off and being like

“You good?”
“Yeah the pay is lousy. Depot is six miles west.”

SCC

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #99 on: 02 July 2019, 02:06:13 »
  Play a Clan unit, a 1,000 lb gorilla bumbling around the strategic map, and find the enemy without scouting elements. When you do, it will be on the enemy's terms. BT was conceptualized around having no infantry or vehicles -those were afterthoughts and if you have played long enough, the rules have finally caught up to the reality: Mechs no longer rule the battlefield. They are still powerful, but no longer all-powerful, as they once were
First of all you seem to be playing a game mode that is both a houserule and requires, at minimum, a third player. Secondly just because the game wasn't conceptualized as having infantry or vehicles, doesn't mean they wouldn't exist in-universe.

  I've played out a recon scenario where the appearance of a recon lance just to locate and count the enemy's numbers sent the enemy commander into a panic. He thought he'd be pounded by artillery and dispersed his units, dismounted his infantry to dig in and prepared for a field battle that never happened... My recon lance observed the enemy for the two hours it took for them to realize that they weren't under attack and shadowed the unit until they reached the series of prepared ambushes in their path.
 
  The OPFOR commander had no clue that he was only encountering a recon lance, his briefing gave him an idea of the forces defending the planet and a town to secure. The GM made the scenario for the light lance members to practice, and participate in the merc contract, other than by making a few rolls and doling out experience at the end of the contract.
  None of the recon units fired a shot. They stayed well out of range and once the enemy was close enough for the Long Toms to reach them, the recon/scouts did what they did best; they stayed out of combat.

  Recon isn't just running around and looking for stuff. If you are ahead of the main body, you map terrain features, river crossings, etc. You locate and mark minefields and occasionally, you may encounter dug-in forces, which you also report. If a recon unit encounters enemy recon elements, their job may become screening: Prevent the enemy from locating, counting and reporting the main body. Usually, its a stand off, with the enemy recon backing off, but aggressive recon units may want to get past you and you may actually have to fight, which is rare, although mechs like the Hussar shine in this instance. Despite its fragility, its speed and offensive capabilities boost its ability to survive against mechs of similar weight...and this discussion is about what survives. 
This all seems to be scenario play against a GM, which should NOT be the baseline assumption for how most people play, or are welling to play.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #100 on: 02 July 2019, 09:24:59 »
First of all you seem to be playing a game mode that is both a houserule and requires, at minimum, a third player. Secondly just because the game wasn't conceptualized as having infantry or vehicles, doesn't mean they wouldn't exist in-universe.
  How do you figure that? The GM used Battleforce rules for strategic maps and larger encounters, we never had to houserule anything.
Yes, infantry and vehicles existed but at the time of the Clan Invasion, the rules rendered them inconsequential on the battlefield. Try playing out the early scenarios using the current rules and you will see a difference.

Quote
This all seems to be scenario play against a GM, which should NOT be the baseline assumption for how most people play, or are welling to play.
  The GM was always a neutral observer and occasional adjudicator. My gaming group ran the gamut of tactical geniuses to borderline mental retardation...but the guy we call retarded has gone to Historicon and never lost a scenario, even in games he's never played before. His IQ may be in the high 70s but he has a solid grasp of tactics that we beat into him over the years. The Historicon people thought he was one of our best players... :))

Sabelkatten

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #101 on: 02 July 2019, 09:36:19 »
A discussion about heirloom mechs are inherently not about standard tabletop play. The fact that most introtech games I've played have ended with 25-50% of all units totally destroyed doesn't say anything about normal 3rdSW warfare.

massey

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #102 on: 02 July 2019, 11:09:03 »
Kind of on topic, last night I played about twenty games on Megamek vs the bot (I know, I know) where I took a stock Crusader 3R up against a variety of solid medium mechs.  Griffins, Wolverines, Hunchbacks, Vindicators, Centurions, etc.  I played at least two to three games against each medium to give a good sample size.  In every single case, the Crusader beat the ever living tar out of the mediums.  It wasn't even close.

Now, generally I had a BV advantage.  And I had a weight advantage.  Most of the mediums would have a BV of between 1000 to 1100, while the Crusader was about 1300.  4/5 pilots for everybody.  Two random mapsheets.  Just a bunch of one-on-one matchups where I start at one side and they start at the other.

What I learned was... quit taking the Crusader up against Thunderbolts and Marauders (I played a few of those too, and they didn't go nearly as well).  But if you consider that medium mechs are supposed to be the "average" in 3025, then the Crusader is really powerful, and really survivable.  The ammo bomb never came up, because my short ranged firepower was better than theirs, and my armor was better than theirs.  Normally they'd be destroyed and I'd just have armor damage (maybe a stripped leg if they got in a kick).

I could definitely see a Crusader lasting a very long time during the 3rd Succession War.  You would want to avoid the best heavies one on one, but who wouldn't?  If you think of it as a fairly badass overweight medium trooper that can also provide Catapult-level long range/indirect fire, it works great.  A Crusader pilot would need a degree of situational awareness -- keep track of where the things that can kill you are -- but really every mech pilot does.  If you find yourself in short range combat with a dangerous opponent (or with damaged side torsos) and you've still got LRM ammo left, you did something wrong.

Kovax

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #103 on: 02 July 2019, 11:37:40 »
The good old "Crud" can generally duke it out at long range with anything except a dedicated long-range support 'Mech, and take it up close and personal against anything except a dedicated brawler.  If you play it as conservatively as the background would have you behave, or in a campaign where you're not expending valuable assets for marginal advantage simply because they have no value past the end of the battle, it SHOULD be extremely durable.

Problem is, most tabletop games don't work that way, in which case the Crusader's inherent limitations become serious.  Rather than withdrawing or having your opponent do so as soon as one side suffers an armor breach, having exchanged fire and satisfied the demands of honor, players inevitably continue the fight to the death or destruction of one or the other.

I also suspect that the Crusader suffers from the same early rules update issue as the Marauder, where several heat sinks were moved from the torso sides, where ammo is stored, into the engine itself, leaving nothing for "crit padding".  The designs were never modified to adjust for the suddenly much higher level of risk of ammo explosion.

The one unfixable problem that the "Crud" suffers from in either case is that the main close-in weaponry (SRM racks) are hip-mounted, meaning that the 'Mech can't direct the majority of its considerable forward firepower into a side arc if outflanked.

As for "heirlooms", total production volumes (availability) and the normal ways that one would acquire a family 'Mech in the first place (the decommissioning and selling or awarding of certain designs) would likely be the overriding factors for the likelihood of one design being more prominent than another, with attrition of one design versus another being the third most important consideration.

Sartris

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #104 on: 02 July 2019, 11:45:41 »
I also suspect that the Crusader suffers from the same early rules update issue as the Marauder, where several heat sinks were moved from the torso sides, where ammo is stored, into the engine itself, leaving nothing for "crit padding".  The designs were never modified to adjust for the suddenly much higher level of risk of ammo explosion.

correct. it's the example in the battledroids manual for how to fill out the crit chart and has all the sinks in the torsos

RifleMech

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #105 on: 02 July 2019, 19:26:43 »
Why is a Crusader dumping ammo at the first sign of a Locust? Why isn't it shooting at the Locust? And why is a Locust rushing to engage a Crusader? Why isn't the Marauder using that AC/5?  ???

I get that some weapons do have ammo bombs (Hello Machine Gun) but I wouldn't say larger weapons do, especially not when they share the same bin. I also understand unlucky hits, not being able to withdraw, and surrender not being an option. But out side of those things, why stay in combat when you're mech is so shot up its tanking internal damage? And why at that point does your mech still have a lot of ammo left?




SCC

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #106 on: 03 July 2019, 05:38:48 »
  How do you figure that? The GM used Battleforce rules for strategic maps and larger encounters, we never had to houserule anything.
Yes, infantry and vehicles existed but at the time of the Clan Invasion, the rules rendered them inconsequential on the battlefield. Try playing out the early scenarios using the current rules and you will see a difference.
That's not BattleForce, or at least not the BattleFroce featured in SO, which is my reference point, and likely that of anyone coming to the game.

  The GM was always a neutral observer and occasional adjudicator. My gaming group ran the gamut of tactical geniuses to borderline mental retardation...but the guy we call retarded has gone to Historicon and never lost a scenario, even in games he's never played before. His IQ may be in the high 70s but he has a solid grasp of tactics that we beat into him over the years. The Historicon people thought he was one of our best players... :))
The problem is that most groups don't have GM's.

Kovax

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #107 on: 03 July 2019, 10:57:38 »
Why is a Crusader dumping ammo at the first sign of a Locust? Why isn't it shooting at the Locust? And why is a Locust rushing to engage a Crusader? Why isn't the Marauder using that AC/5?  ???

I get that some weapons do have ammo bombs (Hello Machine Gun) but I wouldn't say larger weapons do, especially not when they share the same bin. I also understand unlucky hits, not being able to withdraw, and surrender not being an option. But out side of those things, why stay in combat when you're mech is so shot up its tanking internal damage? And why at that point does your mech still have a lot of ammo left?
No clue why a Crusader pilot would run from a Locust, rather than light it up with either the LRMs or lasers, depending on range.  The Marauder probably CAN'T use up the AC ammo in time to avoid a torso bomb event, because 20 turns of fire is unlikely over the course of most battles; the armor will inevitably run out before the ammo does.

To answer the question about staying in combat when you're "so shot up", 17 points of armor on the torso sides means 1 PPC hit and you're in danger.  I've seen too many cases of otherwise nearly pristine 'Mechs with a single location breached by 3-4 successive hits to the same spot, but only 5-10 points of damage in total to the rest of the 'Mech.  I had one heavy 'Mech with the CT cored in two rounds of fire, and not a point of damage to the rest of the 'Mech.  Do you withdraw when the first location is under 50%, while the rest of the 'Mech is untouched?  Do you wait until a location is breached?  Whatever your definition of "honor" may be, it probably doesn't involve running away the first time the 'Mech gets scratched.  Still, one turn later, it could be scrap metal.

massey

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #108 on: 03 July 2019, 14:39:38 »
Why is a Crusader dumping ammo at the first sign of a Locust?

He shouldn't be.  I used that as an example of what not to do.

The point was, that in-universe, there would be some accepted level of behavior.  You and I don't know exactly what that standard is, but it's not really important for us to know it.  It's enough that the characters know it, and follow it.

If I'm piloting a Trebuchet, providing indirect fire support for my company in a city battle, and a Hunchback suddenly smashes through a parking garage 50 meters away from me, what do I do?  He turns and points that big AC-20 at me face, what am I expected to do?  What's considered honorable, what is foolhardy, and what is cowardice?  What we do on the tabletop, when the absolute worst that happens is that your friend gets to laugh at you because your mech died, is different from what the character would do.

Even if that Trebuchet could win that fight (let's say the Hunchback has a damaged foot actuator and the side torso armor is almost stripped), is he expected to brave that AC-20 where a single hit could kill him?  Is his survival more important than delivering the last few LRM volleys?  I think that in-universe, mechwarriors would have a general understanding about what a mech can handle and what they should run from.  You wouldn't be expected to trash your Trebuchet hoping you get lucky and kill that Hunchback.  No, just kick in the jump jets and get the hell out of there.

Orin J.

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #109 on: 04 July 2019, 01:27:16 »
I think that in-universe, mechwarriors would have a general understanding about what a mech can handle and what they should run from.  You wouldn't be expected to trash your Trebuchet hoping you get lucky and kill that Hunchback.  No, just kick in the jump jets and get the hell out of there.

and then get cored because you forgot your Treb doesn't have jump jets, apparently.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #110 on: 04 July 2019, 01:50:08 »
That depends on the variant.

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Crimson Dawn

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #111 on: 04 July 2019, 02:54:13 »
and then get cored because you forgot your Treb doesn't have jump jets, apparently.

Dang it should have used a Dervish.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #112 on: 04 July 2019, 05:30:47 »
That's not BattleForce, or at least not the BattleFroce featured in SO, which is my reference point, and likely that of anyone coming to the game.
  It isn't. We play BF2 because we have several sets, some still in shrink wrap.

Quote
The problem is that most groups don't have GM's.
  The OP is about heirloom mechs and campaigns... if you don't have a GM, the RPG part wouldn't be much of an issue.
  Saying you don't have a GM is like saying your group had no leaders. In the absence of leadership eventually one steps forward, the same goes with GMs. Eventually, somebody get bored of set battles and starts designing scenarios or runs a campaign, and I mean a real campaign, not just set battles with some RPG in between them.



RifleMech

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #113 on: 04 July 2019, 18:20:46 »
Okay, so the Crusader is an example of what not to do. I'm still not sure why the Marauder wouldn't be shooting at anything that came in range of the AC/5 though and then double tapping when the range got closer. I know the PPCs do more damage but use that ammo up.

As for the Marauder with drawing. I know mechs can die quickly. I hate when that happens.  :'(  but for me how long they stay in depends on the Mech and the game. A bug Mech would with draw sooner than a Marauder. I'd be willing to risk some internal damage if I had to but I would keep in combat more than I had to. Maybe under some cover?

For the Trebuchet, there's 3 options. Stand and throw everything at it in the hope You kill it before it kills you. Try to get out of the way so his shot misses. Then work on killing it. Charge and hope you knock him out before he does you.


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #114 on: 04 July 2019, 19:02:31 »
You really don't want to double tap with a standard AC unless you're about to die anyway.

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RifleMech

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Re: What mechs would be family heirlooms?
« Reply #115 on: 04 July 2019, 19:11:35 »
You really don't want to double tap with a standard AC unless you're about to die anyway.

True but you don't want to keep your ammo sitting around waiting to blow up either. Especially not without more crit padding.