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Author Topic: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?  (Read 4664 times)

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #60 on: 23 April 2019, 10:32:19 »
The rules were not designed to reproduce real-world 20th century aircraft in any way, shape, or form. You're not going to get anything satisfactory. Garbage in, garbage out.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #61 on: 23 April 2019, 11:11:51 »
The rules were not designed to reproduce real-world 20th century aircraft in any way, shape, or form. You're not going to get anything satisfactory. Garbage in, garbage out.

This is absolutely true.

Still, the OP may be interested in checking out TRO:1940 regardless.

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #62 on: 23 April 2019, 20:31:47 »
The rules were not designed to reproduce real-world 20th century aircraft in any way, shape, or form. You're not going to get anything satisfactory. Garbage in, garbage out.


I know that but I should be able to make something sort of close. The problem for aircraft is the speed/thrust system doesn't work well at slow speeds. Unfortunately, there's no legal mechanism for building airplanes with fractional thrust points.

This is absolutely true.

Still, the OP may be interested in checking out TRO:1940 regardless.

I love XTRO:1945!  :smitten:  Unfortunately, it isn't legal. :'(  If it were I'd used it and not have a problem.  :)

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #63 on: 24 April 2019, 05:07:10 »

I know that but I should be able to make something sort of close.

Why should you? There is nothing in BattleTech that's even kind-of-sort-of like an F-14, much less a Sopwith Camel. Would you expect the Mobile Structure rules to give you a good approximation of a medieval siege tower?

BT just isn't meant to be an anything-simulator. It's intended for pitting fantasy-tech units from a very particular vision of the far future, which are more or less evenly matched in terms of technology, against one another. If you try to do anything outside of that, you're going to get weird results.

Your best bet is to try to create something that has the "feel" of its real-life counterpart rather than attempting to duplicate the actual stats. For an F-14, we'd need a heavy turbine conventional fighter that is somewhat maneuverable, has lots of fuel, and carries a big payload of long-range missiles. Say, a 40-tonner with 6/9 thrust and an LRM-15.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Daryk

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #64 on: 24 April 2019, 08:00:24 »
Or even an Extended LRM, or maybe a Thunderbolt launcher, depending on how you want to get the feel of an AIM-54...

Kovax

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #65 on: 24 April 2019, 12:16:50 »
Responding to a couple of older posts in the thread, I was under the impression that several prop planes were strongly believed to have exceeded the speed of sound in a dive, probably with structural damage in the process of breaking that barrier, but were then destroyed in the process of dropping back below the threshold.  Basically, it's likely to have happened, but nobody lived to tell about it.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it's never been worth the engineering, cost, and mortal risk to try to push a prop plane to those speeds when a jet powered craft can be built to do so more easily and affordably.

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #66 on: 24 April 2019, 16:12:33 »
Why should you? There is nothing in BattleTech that's even kind-of-sort-of like an F-14, much less a Sopwith Camel. Would you expect the Mobile Structure rules to give you a good approximation of a medieval siege tower?

BT just isn't meant to be an anything-simulator. It's intended for pitting fantasy-tech units from a very particular vision of the far future, which are more or less evenly matched in terms of technology, against one another. If you try to do anything outside of that, you're going to get weird results.

Your best bet is to try to create something that has the "feel" of its real-life counterpart rather than attempting to duplicate the actual stats. For an F-14, we'd need a heavy turbine conventional fighter that is somewhat maneuverable, has lots of fuel, and carries a big payload of long-range missiles. Say, a 40-tonner with 6/9 thrust and an LRM-15.

Its the last part that I'm trying to do. Something similar with the same feel. So I'm ok with a 4/6 jet fighter. Prop fighters are a little more complicated but I can house rule XTRO:1946 rules are in play. WWI fighters though...the speeds are so slow it be easier to use no than thrust? And why can't I use Sopwith Camels armed with pulse lasers to hunt for flying infantry? Or just as an alternative to VTOL?

« Last Edit: 24 April 2019, 16:14:04 by RifleMech »

Daryk

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #67 on: 24 April 2019, 17:27:21 »
Fixed-wing Support Vehicles are what you want for Camels.  They just don't operate on the same scale with ASFs.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #68 on: 24 April 2019, 17:37:16 »
I'd venture another suggestion.  Treat them as VTOL infantry, in the same way that you'd treat a bunch of halftracks as some form of mechanized infantry rather than bothering to build vehicle stats for them.

They're agile and slow enough, VTOLs would be a more or less appropriate rules depiction.  If necessary, maybe add a restriction that they can't hover.

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #69 on: 24 April 2019, 20:49:46 »
Fixed-wing Support Vehicles are what you want for Camels.  They just don't operate on the same scale with ASFs.


They still use thrust point though and at these speeds they should use MPs.

I'd venture another suggestion.  Treat them as VTOL infantry, in the same way that you'd treat a bunch of halftracks as some form of mechanized infantry rather than bothering to build vehicle stats for them.

They're agile and slow enough, VTOLs would be a more or less appropriate rules depiction.  If necessary, maybe add a restriction that they can't hover.

If I wanted that level of abstraction I would but I'd like to build the vehicle.

Itd be nice if airplanes operating at low speeds could be built using MPs and then abstracted or converted up to thrust points. (Same for VTOL and Aairships but that's another problem.) Unfortunately that isn't legal. :'(

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #70 on: 25 April 2019, 00:52:53 »
Responding to a couple of older posts in the thread, I was under the impression that several prop planes were strongly believed to have exceeded the speed of sound in a dive, probably with structural damage in the process of breaking that barrier, but were then destroyed in the process of dropping back below the threshold.  Basically, it's likely to have happened, but nobody lived to tell about it.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it's never been worth the engineering, cost, and mortal risk to try to push a prop plane to those speeds when a jet powered craft can be built to do so more easily and affordably.

So, this is one of those things that probably never happened, but they thought it did because of the limited understanding of the time. There were some planes such as the P-38 and Spitfire that had high enough critical Mach numbers (above 0.8 ) that they could get into the compressibility region in a steep dive. Once the air starts compressing near the speed of sound, it makes airspeed indicators (which rely on ambient air pressure) unreliable. In the 1940s the knowledge of compressible aerodynamics was very limited and instruments weren't designed to compensate. The airspeed indicator could read a speed faster than sound while the aircraft was still subsonic.

Prop aircraft can't really exceed the speed of sound because the drag produced by a propeller increases exponentially near sonic speeds, and a prop which is capable of cutting through the shockwaves in the transonic region would be too thin and short to produce sufficient takeoff thrust. Very fast prop aircraft usually have their blade tips already going supersonic, and the outer part of the prop actually produces slight negative thrust due to Mach effects. The faster you go, the more of the blade is supersonic and the less thrust it can produce.

Early attempts at penetrating the sound barrier usually ended tragically because the shockwaves produced control flutter that made it impossible to pull out of a dive--or worse, would rip the wing apart. Safe supersonic flight required the development of stiffer wings and better control surface design.
« Last Edit: 25 April 2019, 04:54:09 by The_Caveman »
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #71 on: 25 April 2019, 00:58:36 »
I'd venture another suggestion.  Treat them as VTOL infantry, in the same way that you'd treat a bunch of halftracks as some form of mechanized infantry rather than bothering to build vehicle stats for them.

They're agile and slow enough, VTOLs would be a more or less appropriate rules depiction.  If necessary, maybe add a restriction that they can't hover.

VTOL infantry for WW1 planes is a great suggestion. Especially since their weapons would be infantry MGs by BattleTech standards and do less than 1 point of damage apiece.

They still end up being too slow, but this is a general problem with VTOLs in BattleTech. No VTOL except maybe the Ferret has a realistic flight speed.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #72 on: 25 April 2019, 20:44:30 »
But you can also mount infantry weapons on small support vehicles. I'd like to build the vehicle version of the abstracted infantry.

The thing is motorized/mechanized infantry and vehicles operate under different rules. Aerospace adds further complications.

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #73 on: 26 April 2019, 04:42:33 »
Quote
I'd like to build the vehicle version of the abstracted infantry.

I don't know what to tell you. Go back in time and talk to the guys that wrote the support vee rules before they were published?

You can get most of the way there with the support vehicle rules, but you need to increase the weight to about 5 tons to have enough fuel to be useful.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #74 on: 26 April 2019, 05:07:58 »
I don't know what to tell you. Go back in time and talk to the guys that wrote the support vee rules before they were published?

You can get most of the way there with the support vehicle rules, but you need to increase the weight to about 5 tons to have enough fuel to be useful.

I'm not having problems with support vehicles rules so much. It's having to use thrust speeds and that aerospace always flies higher. Thrust makes sense after you get to a certain speed but below that it doesn't. Thrust also works higher up but not down low.

I also don't expect range to be huge. It'd be enough for a short combat. I think. I still haven't completely figured out the velocity thing anyway. I usually just end up abstracting a couple passes.

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #75 on: 26 April 2019, 10:02:00 »
I'm not having problems with support vehicles rules so much. It's having to use thrust speeds and that aerospace always flies higher. Thrust makes sense after you get to a certain speed but below that it doesn't. Thrust also works higher up but not down low.

I also don't expect range to be huge. It'd be enough for a short combat. I think. I still haven't completely figured out the velocity thing anyway. I usually just end up abstracting a couple passes.

You've run head-on into the problem with the VTOL movement rules being a crude kludge based on jump MPs: they massively fail to bridge the gap between ground units and aerospace units.

What's needed is a third layer of movement, but adding one is only going to add to the chug of an already glacially-paced game.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #76 on: 26 April 2019, 20:38:04 »
The VTOL movement is ok but you're right. It doesn't bridge ground and aerospace. I don't think any of the TPTB thought players would want to play with such slow moving airplanes though.

I think the best fix would be for all aircraft operating below a certain speed to use MP and to use TP above that. I would also say that all aircraft flying above a certain elevation be treated as aircraft and those below as ground units. That way aircraft of all kinds can dog fight or be staffed depending on the stituation.


Back on topicish. The max velocity for a prop plane is 9, right?

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #77 on: 26 April 2019, 22:11:37 »
(Sigh) I am remembering why we house ruled aerospace.

If nebfer's post https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63990.msg1472345#msg1472345 is right an aerospace unit should be able to a max of 23 hexes.  A top speed of 5,400kph or Mach 4.41.  But isn't to max movement 2 hexes, or 360kph or Mach .29?

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #78 on: 26 April 2019, 22:25:13 »
(Sigh) I am remembering why we house ruled aerospace.

If nebfer's post https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63990.msg1472345#msg1472345 is right an aerospace unit should be able to a max of 23 hexes.  A top speed of 5,400kph or Mach 4.41.  But isn't to max movement 2 hexes, or 360kph or Mach .29?

You're confusing high and low altitude hexes. Low altitude hexes are 500m, high altitude hexes are 18km.

I think what you're looking for is "aerospace units on ground maps" rules where every point of (low altitude) AS velocity translates to 16 ground MP.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #79 on: 26 April 2019, 23:40:30 »
You're confusing high and low altitude hexes. Low altitude hexes are 500m, high altitude hexes are 18km.

I think what you're looking for is "aerospace units on ground maps" rules where every point of (low altitude) AS velocity translates to 16 ground MP.

Well I am confused.

His post said those were the speeds for low altitude. That's altitudes 0 and 1 right?  :-\

Weirdo

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #80 on: 26 April 2019, 23:57:18 »
Low Altitude is when the map is parallel to the planet's surface, and encompasses Altitudes 1-10. High Altitude is when your map is perpendicular to the surface, one hexrow is the ground, you have a few hexrows of atmosphere, and then space. The lowest non-ground hexrow on the High Altitude map encompasses all of Low Altitude. Low Altitude hexes are 500 meters across, High Altitude hexes are 18 kilometers across. Combat at Low Altitude uses ten-second turns, High Altitude and Space operations use sixty-second turns. Between those figures and Total War, all your velocity questions are easily answered.

The rules for all of this can be found in Total War. Low Altitude is on pages 80-88, and High Altitude/Space Movement is on pages 76-80. It is not possible for text to convey sufficiently strongly that you stay the hell away from the Aerospace Units on Ground Mapsheets rules on pages 91-92. Seriously, they will only bring you pain.
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RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #81 on: 27 April 2019, 04:57:43 »
Low Altitude is when the map is parallel to the planet's surface, and encompasses Altitudes 1-10. High Altitude is when your map is perpendicular to the surface, one hexrow is the ground, you have a few hexrows of atmosphere, and then space. The lowest non-ground hexrow on the High Altitude map encompasses all of Low Altitude. Low Altitude hexes are 500 meters across, High Altitude hexes are 18 kilometers across. Combat at Low Altitude uses ten-second turns, High Altitude and Space operations use sixty-second turns. Between those figures and Total War, all your velocity questions are easily answered.

The rules for all of this can be found in Total War. Low Altitude is on pages 80-88, and High Altitude/Space Movement is on pages 76-80. It is not possible for text to convey sufficiently strongly that you stay the hell away from the Aerospace Units on Ground Mapsheets rules on pages 91-92. Seriously, they will only bring you pain.

Sorry. Still lost. :(  I can't even figure out the tables. The High-Altitude Table has the ground row being up to 17 km with a safe velocity of 2. The Low Altitude Table has Altitude 10 at a max height of 18,000 meters. Doesn't 18,000 m = 18 km? So which table do I use when flying at 17.5 km?

Page 81 also says that any unit prohibited from operating ins space can't move from Altitude 10 to Altitude 11 (Row 1). So how does a conventional fighter or support vehicle travel in Row 3 at mach 3?

I'd only want to use really slow aircraft on the ground mapsheet but the other rules give me enough pain. I'm pretty sure I had VCR instructions that were easier to understand. :'(

Weirdo

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #82 on: 27 April 2019, 11:32:34 »
Sorry. Still lost. :(  I can't even figure out the tables. The High-Altitude Table has the ground row being up to 17 km with a safe velocity of 2. The Low Altitude Table has Altitude 10 at a max height of 18,000 meters. Doesn't 18,000 m = 18 km? So which table do I use when flying at 17.5 km?

As the prior post says, Low Altitude and High Altitude overlap a bit. It is your choice as to which map you choose to operate the unit on.
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RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #83 on: 27 April 2019, 22:03:42 »
I'm sorry I'm still lost. :(


High altitude row 1 has a max speed of mach 3, and Row 0 /low altitude has a max speed of mach 2. Right?  So how does an aircraft reach mach 4.4 on the low altitude map/row 0?  Doesn't that exceed the safe thrust/velocity limit?

The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #84 on: 28 April 2019, 00:24:33 »
I'm sorry I'm still lost. :(


High altitude row 1 has a max speed of mach 3, and Row 0 /low altitude has a max speed of mach 2. Right?  So how does an aircraft reach mach 4.4 on the low altitude map/row 0?  Doesn't that exceed the safe thrust/velocity limit?

High and low altitude rules don't overlap even though the maps do. Aerospace craft that drop onto the low-altitude map are like banditos that make it across the border before the sheriff catches them. Whole different set of laws apply.

Ground, low-altitude, and high altitude rules use different levels of abstraction, going from most detailed (ground) to least (high altitude/space). The high altitude rules don't take safe thrust into account for atmospheric speed limits for the sake of simplification.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2019, 00:27:51 by The_Caveman »
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

marauder648

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #85 on: 28 April 2019, 04:57:48 »
all these rules sound a tad complex :S
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The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #86 on: 28 April 2019, 07:46:42 »
all these rules sound a tad complex :S

It's what happens when you take a hex-based 2D wargame designed for walking tank battles and try to project it onto 3D aerospace battles. The entire paradigm of Aerotech is misaligned and has been from the start. About the only upside to it is the game mechanics are similar enough that players don't have to learn an entirely new system.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

RifleMech

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #87 on: 28 April 2019, 08:31:58 »
High and low altitude rules don't overlap even though the maps do. Aerospace craft that drop onto the low-altitude map are like banditos that make it across the border before the sheriff catches them. Whole different set of laws apply.

Ground, low-altitude, and high altitude rules use different levels of abstraction, going from most detailed (ground) to least (high altitude/space). The high altitude rules don't take safe thrust into account for atmospheric speed limits for the sake of simplification.

So aerospace using ground, low-altitude rules can go as fast as twice their max thrust, whatever that may be?


The_Caveman

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #88 on: 28 April 2019, 11:03:34 »
So aerospace using ground, low-altitude rules can go as fast as twice their max thrust, whatever that may be?

Twice as fast as their safe thrust, unless that has changed recently.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Weirdo

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Re: Kind of lore/headcanon question. - How fast are ASF's?
« Reply #89 on: 28 April 2019, 11:29:03 »
Well, I suppose you can manage to hit twice your max thrust, if you can pass a large number of very difficult piloting skill rolls, with failing even a single one being a Very Bad Thing.
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"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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