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Author Topic: Ghost Bear defeats?  (Read 2004 times)

Doy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #30 on: 03 January 2019, 17:41:14 »
And what you say to the Wolves under Vlad ?

...or the Survivors of the Nova Cats in the Clan Potectorate, the Fedelis from the Jaugars ?

and Even some Wolverines are alive!



Xeno426

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #31 on: 04 January 2019, 02:05:31 »
And what you say to the Wolves under Vlad ?
Plot armor, same as the Davions.

...or the Survivors of the Nova Cats in the Clan Potectorate
Wasn't that set in stone before the Cats were even written as being otherwise destroyed?
Besides, what's left is the Spirit Cats. And they're... not really the same.

the Fedelis from the Jaugars ?
A tiny little secret military force. Do they even have any Labour, Merchant or Scientist caste members with them? Hardly makes for a Clan if they don't.
There were also some remnant pieces that were part of the Society uprising as well.

and Even some Wolverines are alive!
Allegedly.

But these are all still very fringe cases. The Wolves are the only ones to separate that remained viable as their own independent faction. Even the Spirit Cats are pretty damn dependent on the Foxes within the Protectorate.
The Ice Hellions are gone. The Mandrills are gone. The Burrocks are (now) gone. The Mongoos and Widowmakers are gone.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #32 on: 12 January 2019, 12:26:49 »
It's a funny sort of defeat, but the Bears are the first and thus far only Clan to subordinate themselves to native civilian sphereoid leadership.

I realise this is a bit late, but: how so?

The Ghost Bears took over Rasalhague, and while they made a few concessions to native desires, the Ghost Bear Dominion is very clearly a Clan society that has conquered and indoctrinated a native one. The Dominion keeps the caste system, it keeps Clan trials and military experience as prerequisites for rule, the entire military class is Clan, and so on.

The very fact that today we talk about Ghost Bears and not about Rasalhagians illustrates the point, to me. When we play Dominion forces on the tabletop, we play the Ghost Bear touman: not the KungsArmé. You don't get to play the Drakøns any more: you play clusters and galaxies. That there are some native-born Rasalhagians in those clusters strikes me as approximately equivalent to there having been Rasalhagian samurai in the days of the Combine.

When I think about Clans that have effectively subordinated themselves to Spheroid leadership, regardless of civilian status or their technical legal position, I think of the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats, which were much more clearly in subordinate positions when it came to the political leadership of their respective nations. The Clan Protectorate in the new FWL might be another example. But when it comes to Rasalhague, it still seems pretty clear to me that things can only happen there if Clan Ghost Bear allows it. They are the dominant force there: the Rasalhagians live at the Ghost Bears' sufferance, whereas the Wolves-in-Exile or Nova Cats lived at the Lyrans' or Combine's sufferance.

Sorry, this has always been rather a sore spot for me, as someone who quite liked Rasalhague, and, well, does not like the Bears. At any rate, it seems rather silly to me to hold up the Rasalhague Dominion as a Ghost Bear 'defeat'. The Clan got everything it wanted; and the Rasalhagians just had to make the best of a bad situation.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #33 on: 12 January 2019, 12:39:48 »
I realise this is a bit late, but: how so?

The Ghost Bears took over Rasalhague, and while they made a few concessions to native desires, the Ghost Bear Dominion is very clearly a Clan society that has conquered and indoctrinated a native one. The Dominion keeps the caste system, it keeps Clan trials and military experience as prerequisites for rule, the entire military class is Clan, and so on.

The very fact that today we talk about Ghost Bears and not about Rasalhagians illustrates the point, to me. When we play Dominion forces on the tabletop, we play the Ghost Bear touman: not the KungsArmé. You don't get to play the Drakøns any more: you play clusters and galaxies. That there are some native-born Rasalhagians in those clusters strikes me as approximately equivalent to there having been Rasalhagian samurai in the days of the Combine.

When I think about Clans that have effectively subordinated themselves to Spheroid leadership, regardless of civilian status or their technical legal position, I think of the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats, which were much more clearly in subordinate positions when it came to the political leadership of their respective nations. The Clan Protectorate in the new FWL might be another example. But when it comes to Rasalhague, it still seems pretty clear to me that things can only happen there if Clan Ghost Bear allows it. They are the dominant force there: the Rasalhagians live at the Ghost Bears' sufferance, whereas the Wolves-in-Exile or Nova Cats lived at the Lyrans' or Combine's sufferance.

Sorry, this has always been rather a sore spot for me, as someone who quite liked Rasalhague, and, well, does not like the Bears. At any rate, it seems rather silly to me to hold up the Rasalhague Dominion as a Ghost Bear 'defeat'. The Clan got everything it wanted; and the Rasalhagians just had to make the best of a bad situation.

Are you not familiar with the 3145 lore?  Clan Ghost Bear is relegated down below being an IS House Army... it's only part of an IS Army at this point.  There are Drakons, Hussars, Freemen, regiments again... they're just called clusters is all.  Sure, the Warrior Caste is still semi-"in charge" in the Dominion's diarchy... but the larger point is so is the sphereoid civilian government.  So sure technically the Clan hasn't handed over ALL political power to the sphereoids... but they've very significantly handed over roughly half. 

Clan Ghost Bear isn't necessarily under command of the civilian government of the Dominion, but neither can they ignore its demands.  Contrast that with say the Raven Alliance, where the civilians there have little to no say over what their Clan 'partners' do.  Also compare it to the Falcon or Horses Occupation Zones... native sphereoids make up a huge part of the military (all those Drakons, Hussars, etc clusters...).  The Ghost Bear Touman at this point can't campaign without the participation and cooperation of the "KungsArmee" descendants.  The Wolf Empire is in a similar situation of being held over the barrel by the sphereoid part of its touman, but the Wolves lack the oversight of a civilian sphereoid government at least.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2019, 12:42:04 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Xeno426

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #34 on: 12 January 2019, 12:42:15 »
The KungsArmé still exists in the form of the Polar, Tundra and Taiga galaxies. The Drakøns are part of the Tundra galaxy. They effectively act as second-line galaxy formations.
However, they are still organized by Clan standards and under Clan command.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #35 on: 12 January 2019, 12:43:37 »
The KungsArmé still exists in the form of the Polar, Tundra and Taiga galaxies. The Drakøns are part of the Tundra galaxy. They effectively act as second-line galaxy formations.
However, they are still organized by Clan standards and under Clan command.

Under a unified command, yes.  Not necessarily under Clan command.  The Dominion military is organized and run by the Ghost Bears, yes. While the Ghost Bear capital is at Alshain, the executive capital is at Rasalhague.  The Prince and Khan are co-equals politically, just as Rasalhague and Alshain are the two capitals of the Dominion.  Having a civilian sphereoid holding the same rank as your Khan is unprecedented in the rest of Clan-dom.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2019, 13:09:21 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Easy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #36 on: 12 January 2019, 12:52:22 »
Hm. You raise several good points. I might reserve the strength of my own language, for the reason that, as you say, the GB Touman calls all the military shots, such that RD foreign policy must pass the scrutiny of the Khans. That said, domestic policy might not be as Clan regimented as all that. The sources are replete with examples of the Rasalhague freebirth pushing buttons and pulling strings to shape the course of GB military campaigns and political positions on various topics not immediately within the domain of military exigency. Sometimes, this is by rioting and dissident activism, but just as often, I suggest, by making the local GB garrison sleep in the dog house until they mend the error of their ways.

The trouble might be that the RD is rarely, if ever, center stage in the grand narrative, but are often more in a bailiff or deputy role under whatever person or force is 'good guys number one'. This tends to make their domestic culture somewhat opaque, not because the 'family-oriented' Khans are particularly secretive, but that the wonkiness of a reasonably well-ordered society doesn't necessarily generate alot of entertainment value or intrigue to contribute to the imperatives of an interesting crisis.

This is somewhat wordy, I haven't read all the contemporary RD stories out there, but as long as we are content to allow the RD to play the role of moral banhammers, that is, then, the reputation they will develop.

(Edited for clarity.)
« Last Edit: 12 January 2019, 15:09:48 by Easy »

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #37 on: 12 January 2019, 21:52:53 »
Under a unified command, yes.  Not necessarily under Clan command.  The Dominion military is organized and run by the Ghost Bears, yes. While the Ghost Bear capital is at Alshain, the executive capital is at Rasalhague.  The Prince and Khan are co-equals politically, just as Rasalhague and Alshain are the two capitals of the Dominion.  Having a civilian sphereoid holding the same rank as your Khan is unprecedented in the rest of Clan-dom.
Still under clan command, the clan still controls the military and they still have to pass trials of position to get in.
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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #38 on: 13 January 2019, 04:48:43 »
Are you not familiar with the 3145 lore?  Clan Ghost Bear is relegated down below being an IS House Army... it's only part of an IS Army at this point.  There are Drakons, Hussars, Freemen, regiments again... they're just called clusters is all.  Sure, the Warrior Caste is still semi-"in charge" in the Dominion's diarchy... but the larger point is so is the sphereoid civilian government.  So sure technically the Clan hasn't handed over ALL political power to the sphereoids... but they've very significantly handed over roughly half.

I feel like Xeno426 gave the same answer I would give. The former KungsArmé units were conscripted into reserve Clan galaxies, organised and trained along Clan lines, and I think fairly openly denigrated as inferior to the 'true' Clan units?

(Which I find a little amusing considering the KungsArmé's straight win in the Great Refusal - they indisputably could go toe-to-toe with frontline Clan formations and win. Though maybe the Bears feel that the Horses don't count?)

At any rate, the unit descriptions in FM:3145 suggest to me that that predominantly trueborn, Clan culture galaxies do tend to look down on the Rasalhagian forces? There is still a division, with the Ghost Bear forces evidently seeing themselves as being more prestigious, more professional, etc., than the native forces, even while at the same requiring the native forces to assimilate to Clan culture and Clan military standards. It does not look like an equal partnership to me, despite what FM:3145 and ER:3145 claim. It looks to me like an ongoing and largely successful attempt by a new Clan aristocracy to reform Rasalhagian culture along their preferred lines.

Quote
Clan Ghost Bear isn't necessarily under command of the civilian government of the Dominion, but neither can they ignore its demands.  Contrast that with say the Raven Alliance, where the civilians there have little to no say over what their Clan 'partners' do.  Also compare it to the Falcon or Horses Occupation Zones... native sphereoids make up a huge part of the military (all those Drakons, Hussars, etc clusters...).  The Ghost Bear Touman at this point can't campaign without the participation and cooperation of the "KungsArmee" descendants.

To what extent, though, do we see meaningful Rasalhagian resistance to or control over Ghost Bear priorities?

I agree that the Dominion is not as bad as the Wolf Empire, Raven Alliance, or any of the OZs, but at the same time that's not exactly something worth bragging about. Part of it is just an OOU irritation of mine: I feel like the Wolves, Falcons, etc., are still more-or-less openly written as villains. They're the bad guys, we know they're the bad guys, and there's no pretense otherwise. Whereas it can feel like the Bears are attributed some sort of moral high ground, even if the only major difference is that they've been more successful in taking over and integrating with a conquered populace.

I guess I also find it rather jarring because, as I understood it, one of the defining cultural traits of Rasalhague was this long-term resistance to Combine domination. It just... feels incredibly uncomfortable, to me, for these people with this history of resistance to the imposed culture of a militarist, caste-based foreign aristocracy to seemingly just roll over when, after successfully obtaining their independence after centuries of trial, they are conquered by another militarist caste-based foreign aristocracy. From an OOU perspective, I wonder if it's just that the Bears are also vaguely Scandinavian, so rolling together the two Scandinavian factions makes sense? I suppose from an IU perspective the argument would be that, unlike the Combine, the Bears showed a degree of respect for native custom and proved willing to compromise, to the extent of actually surrendering a reasonable degree of political power?

Hm. You raise several good points. I might reserve the strength of my own language, for the reason that, as you say, the GB Touman calls all the military shots, such that RD foreign policy must pass the scrutiny of the Khans.

That was more-or-less my sense. Are there various subtle pressures the Rasalhagians can exert to try to moderate or sway Bear policy? Yes. But if the Bears are determined to do something, they will do it, and the Rasalhagians can't stop them. We know where power ultimately lies in the Dominion.

Apocal

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #39 on: 13 January 2019, 07:14:19 »
(Which I find a little amusing considering the KungsArmé's straight win in the Great Refusal - they indisputably could go toe-to-toe with frontline Clan formations and win. Though maybe the Bears feel that the Horses don't count?)

If they really felt that way, a frontline Ghost Bear galaxy is not something that's hard to find in the Rasalhague Dominion.

Elmoth

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #40 on: 13 January 2019, 10:22:59 »
Yup. Pretty much that: the rashalaguians going along the bears breaks my suspension of disbelief. If I played in that space area (we tend to go for south and west of the galaxy) I would certainly go for a widespread active and successful guerrilla/terrorist movement all over the place taking a major toll on the bears and making heir successful Dominion quite a nightmare to run. Would also explain why the bears are depicts as successful and at the same time never play any significant role in clan politics. They are too occupied in their conquered area to be able to project much influence abroad.

Jellico

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #41 on: 13 January 2019, 17:23:46 »
Historically extended guerrilla activity requires political instability, lack of economic development, and outside interference.

CGB spent 20 years providing eliminating all three before political union and they still had resistance.

They also had a generation grow up under CGB propaganda. Population numbers also meant that seeing an actual Ghost Bear member was like seeing a national level politician. Who are they going to be blaming for the pot holes in the street? Not the far off invaders that have provided the best economic times ever and essentially no invasions. As a plus the Bears seem to be encouraging Rasalhagian culture. Targeting Rasalhagian worlds for recapture. Rasalhagian themed Mechs. Promoting Rasalhagian heros. And that is the stuff we can see in novels, TROs, and source books.

OTOH the FRR rump is rapidly becoming a side department in ComStar/the Star League. Their mid 60s run through the Wolf OZ was as much about proving they still exist as anything. Depression and suicide in the general population is common and rising.

The math is pretty easy. Survival to fight another day means dealing with the Bears. Ironically for me the Rasalhagians submitting is the believable side. The writers at the time knew it would be had to swallow and left a lot of hooks. The Bears OTOH? How were they, a society based on might is right, convinced to give up a position of power?

Easy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #42 on: 16 January 2019, 12:48:15 »
Historically extended guerrilla activity requires political instability, lack of economic development, and outside interference.

CGB spent 20 years providing eliminating all three before political union and they still had resistance.

They also had a generation grow up under CGB propaganda. Population numbers also meant that seeing an actual Ghost Bear member was like seeing a national level politician. Who are they going to be blaming for the pot holes in the street? Not the far off invaders that have provided the best economic times ever and essentially no invasions. As a plus the Bears seem to be encouraging Rasalhagian culture. Targeting Rasalhagian worlds for recapture. Rasalhagian themed Mechs. Promoting Rasalhagian heros. And that is the stuff we can see in novels, TROs, and source books.

OTOH the FRR rump is rapidly becoming a side department in ComStar/the Star League. Their mid 60s run through the Wolf OZ was as much about proving they still exist as anything. Depression and suicide in the general population is common and rising.

The math is pretty easy. Survival to fight another day means dealing with the Bears. Ironically for me the Rasalhagians submitting is the believable side. The writers at the time knew it would be had to swallow and left a lot of hooks. The Bears OTOH? How were they, a society based on might is right, convinced to give up a position of power?


This, so much this. Does the FRR-In-Exile on Tukkayid really wait for a war for dozens of Rasalhage worlds with ComStar Armies, or do they go to the bargaining table with freebirth administrators and diplomats under a Rasalhague letterhead, under the paternal "guidance" of the Khans?

I think as the FedCom Civil War rages, and the Bears and the Combine struggle for economic dominance, the Rasalhjague felt compelled by economic necessity that the Ghost Bears actually possess the worlds upon which they lay the foundation of the economy.
« Last Edit: 16 January 2019, 13:14:53 by Easy »

 

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