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Author Topic: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)  (Read 2280 times)

casperionx

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Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« on: 07 February 2019, 03:57:56 »
So something is bothering me, the fact that WoB has an active warship with support of their latest and greatest fighters to attack an unnamed planet a hop away from McEvedy's Folly. If memory serves correct the Jihad had died in 3081 roughly with the defeat of WoB on terra? Now I know they still would have had some assets, but surely a late model carrier with next gen fighters? Seems a bit rich. Now admittedly its classed as canon rumour, but is there any more info of still active Wob assets post jihad?

StoneRhino

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #1 on: 07 February 2019, 04:42:29 »
Post Jihad WoB rumors? Never hearda dem. Move along, nothing to see here.   >:D

Frabby

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #2 on: 07 February 2019, 07:34:25 »
A gazillion WoB personnel, entire divisions of military hardware, and several WarShips vanished without being destroyed, and are not accounted for. Two entire hidden worlds exist that were never found. I guess I don't see your problem.

And the Thera's attack against an IE dig is not a canon rumor; it's fully canon.
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Maelwys

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #3 on: 07 February 2019, 12:38:14 »
Jihad Final Reckoning has the data you want. But roughly 7 Shadow Divisions are listed as MIA, 4 WoBM Divisions and 5 WarShips, including the Thera.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #4 on: 07 February 2019, 14:21:55 »
I thought they had all fled to a planet code named Antarctica in the deep periphery?
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Tangoforone

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #5 on: 07 February 2019, 15:48:36 »
As far as canonicity, I don't believe anything has been posted past the Jihad: Final Reckoning book.  The prevailing theories, as far as I am aware, are as follows:

1:  All the Manei Domini killed off the standard militia for not being true believers, then went mad due to their implants. 
2:  They have an incredibly well defended, well hidden base on a hidden world, with a multitude of jump ports that they use to restock and gather info from civilization.  Some of their super-carriers, with the high-tech jump equipment still survive. 

What has been verified, I believe, is that many of the WOBM and higher-level intelligence officers blended back into Comstar and other factions to continue their behind-the-scenes shenanigans.  To what end or for what purpose, I don't know.

What I do know is that we will return to bring salvation to the Inner Sphere, and extinction to the Clan heathens.  May the light of Blake guide you :)

Sartris

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #6 on: 07 February 2019, 15:55:09 »
A gazillion WoB personnel, entire divisions of military hardware, and several WarShips vanished without being destroyed, and are not accounted for. Two entire hidden worlds exist that were never found. I guess I don't see your problem.

And the Thera's attack against an IE dig is not a canon rumor; it's fully canon.

Even after their defeat, the unaccounted for assets still constituted a major military power on paper. the time for a massive wob resurgence has probably passed, but i would definitely enjoy the chaos.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #7 on: 07 February 2019, 15:59:22 »
Actually a few Blakist enclaves have been found by/during the Dark Ages.  I want to say it was Wolf Hunters, or whatever the book was where Anastasia Kerensky broke up the Steel Wolves, had one of the merc groups some of the proto-Wolves joined tasked with investigating a area on a continent that had not been settled.  They found grain fields, DS hidden as rock formations, and wrecked/barely functional Militia mechs.  I seem to remember a Initiate and Toyama with I think a Lancelot being wrecked.  The Blakist refugees had ended up fighting among themselves and had regressed to a post-Apocalypse level.

Sartis-  Would it be enough to go wipe out the Clan Homeworlds?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #8 on: 07 February 2019, 15:59:52 »
Anything that comes from the Interstellar Players series (and that one certainly qualifies) can and usually SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt the size of a Ryoken.

Then again, they DO get things right now and then (Sixth of June, for example)... hmmm...  >:D
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Sartris

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #9 on: 07 February 2019, 16:18:01 »
Sartis-  Would it be enough to go wipe out the Clan Homeworlds?

i mean it doesn't matter how many assets you have if you can't get them to the destination. i've never run any numbers on what a re-formed blakist army would look like in the 3090s, but it would be mighty tough to move and supply. As to whether they could expunge the clans, i suppose that depends on what's going on up there. if the robes made their #1 priority after the jihad to get up to the kerensky cluster with a small fleet of warships with a large number of nuclear weapons, they might be able to permanently cripple what's left of the homeclan's industrial capability - though it's entirely possible such a taskforce would run into the winners of the reavings - say a pissed Star Adder Touman that's been doing nothing but brooding for a decade and gets to take out its frustration on the first thing that comes out of jump.

rebs

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #10 on: 07 February 2019, 17:15:42 »
i mean it doesn't matter how many assets you have if you can't get them to the destination. i've never run any numbers on what a re-formed blakist army would look like in the 3090s, but it would be mighty tough to move and supply. As to whether they could expunge the clans, i suppose that depends on what's going on up there. if the robes made their #1 priority after the jihad to get up to the kerensky cluster with a small fleet of warships with a large number of nuclear weapons, they might be able to permanently cripple what's left of the homeclan's industrial capability - though it's entirely possible such a taskforce would run into the winners of the reavings - say a pissed Star Adder Touman that's been doing nothing but brooding for a decade and gets to take out its frustration on the first thing that comes out of jump.

That would make the Aggressor's case for IS taint being beyond redmption.  And maybe make the plot move forward.  Hopefully the Homies have found a way to ratchet up the sibkos in this case.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #11 on: 07 February 2019, 17:25:23 »
i mean it doesn't matter how many assets you have if you can't get them to the destination. i've never run any numbers on what a re-formed blakist army would look like in the 3090s, but it would be mighty tough to move and supply.

Supply is easy, they have already been building caches and staging all sorts of supplies- to include 3050s and 3060s WoB weapons production.
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Sartris

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #12 on: 07 February 2019, 18:39:22 »
Assuming you can get at them while the whole of humanity is trying to track you down. They don’t have a nation any more so everything has to be done secretly and carefully

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #13 on: 07 February 2019, 18:46:09 »
In the deep periphery?  Between the OZs and Home worlds we have unknown caches.  They already managed to break contact with the IS otherwise the Regulans would have been giving them parting gifts of Canned Sunshine.
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Sartris

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #14 on: 07 February 2019, 18:57:10 »
The ruins of Gabriel was like two jumps from arc royal. The other hidden worlds could be similarly not peripheral Not all their stuff could have possibly made it out to the sticks. Getting the band back together wouldn’t be impossible but it would take time, and that’s time for the surviving homeclans to get their shit together

Elmoth

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #15 on: 07 February 2019, 19:06:03 »
Now, if the WoB went to the home clans and allied with them....

Sartris

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #16 on: 07 February 2019, 19:22:24 »
Great. It’s clan weasel robes with their manei protomechs and Double Omnis

rebs

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #17 on: 07 February 2019, 19:45:28 »
Whole lotta crushin goin on in that case.

haesslich

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #18 on: 07 February 2019, 22:04:20 »
Even after their defeat, the unaccounted for assets still constituted a major military power on paper. the time for a massive wob resurgence has probably passed, but i would definitely enjoy the chaos.

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JPArbiter

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #19 on: 07 February 2019, 22:04:32 »
To the OP, they just don’t have one active Warship, they have the asteroid chucking mobile factory Enyries at thier behest
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #20 on: 08 February 2019, 00:09:51 »
The ruins of Gabriel was like two jumps from arc royal. The other hidden worlds could be similarly not peripheral Not all their stuff could have possibly made it out to the sticks. Getting the band back together wouldn’t be impossible but it would take time, and that’s time for the surviving homeclans to get their shit together

IIRC none of the original hidden 5 was in the Periphery.

All were around/between the 250-500 LY Lines or something like that IIRC.

That said they did have some lovely stuff out in the Periphery, but that wasn't the "Hidden-5"
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #21 on: 08 February 2019, 00:19:16 »
So something is bothering me, the fact that WoB has an active warship with support of their latest and greatest fighters to attack an unnamed planet a hop away from McEvedy's Folly. If memory serves correct the Jihad had died in 3081 roughly with the defeat of WoB on terra? Now I know they still would have had some assets, but surely a late model carrier with next gen fighters? Seems a bit rich. Now admittedly its classed as canon rumour, but is there any more info of still active Wob assets post jihad?

The carrier and its compliment were a known asset that was unaccounted for at wars end.

It's worth mentioning, though, that at least a portion of the Manei Domini have a pretty short shelf life. A lot of their implants are harsh like that.

Not all, though.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Maelwys

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #22 on: 08 February 2019, 00:39:11 »
It's worth mentioning, though, that at least a portion of the Manei Domini have a pretty short shelf life. A lot of their implants are harsh like that.

Not all, though.

Not even most. As far as I know, only the various VDNI implants cause extended issues that can't be combated with drugs (maybe the Triple Core Processor as well)

Orwell84

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #23 on: 08 February 2019, 03:21:43 »
Now, if the WoB went to the home clans and allied with them....

Great. It’s clan weasel robes with their manei protomechs and Double Omnis

Interesting idea if it happened, but I just don't see how any author could make that believable. Not after the Home Clans have been moved firmly into the anti-Spheroid mindset.

Could be that the surviving Robes took over the Hanseatic League by offering them tech and protection from Aggressor raiding parties, and that since the 3090s a Blakist/Hanseatic alliance has been duking it out with the Home Clanners and Imperio throughout the Deep Periphery.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #24 on: 08 February 2019, 03:42:32 »
Era Digest: Dark Age added a NeoWobbie terrorist faction with ties to sphere wise neowobbie movements, and has been indications hidden in some sidebar fiction that the group had ties to whatever survived of the WOB proper.

StoneRhino

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #25 on: 08 February 2019, 04:12:24 »
I like seeing people suggesting that WoB couldn't have taken their stuff and disappeared.

We are talking about a faction that was the offshoot of comstar, which had plenty of experience of building and hiding forces for ages while also messing with the houses. WoB somehow built up enough of a force out of "nowhere" to take on the entire I.S. and several clans and give them hell for some time. The leader was someone people didn't expect.

Who knows what they really have stashed away. The only reason the I.S. knows of the clans is because Comstar wondered beyond what the houses had and stumbled upon the hive. What was comstar really up to and to what extent?

Chances are WoB's primary assets are it's people, meaning they could have dumped anything anywhere out in the open and not care. They can just build what they dumped on some unknown planet. Of course if they knew that you would know that some of them had survived, they would expect you to go looking for them. If so, would you go in the direction that they think you went? That direction being the one that you made them think you went ? We are talking about those that controlled the HPGs and had warships sitting around, and installed a puppet as the leader of a I.S. house. I'm sure they could find a way to divert a few dropships worth of stuff and cover the records to create a supply chain that nobody really knows exists. WoB could be your neighbors.... >:D

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #26 on: 08 February 2019, 06:50:12 »
IMHO it would be very charming to have an alliance of the escaped Manei Domini and the Homeclans.
After some initial battles both faction might have considered the Inner Sphere being their common adversery up to their destruction.

However, I think that after Herb Beas and Ben Rome`s leaving anything what might have been considered for these WOB elements did go the way of the Dodo.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #27 on: 08 February 2019, 10:10:52 »
The Word of Blake are the Belkans of the Battletech universe.

This gave me a good laugh, thank you.  ;D
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grimlock1

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #28 on: 08 February 2019, 16:51:19 »
Great. It’s clan weasel robes with their manei protomechs and Double Omnis
Double omni?
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Sartris

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #29 on: 08 February 2019, 16:55:31 »
Double omni?

the omni pods have omnipods

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #30 on: 08 February 2019, 17:33:08 »
My money is that most of the Word retreated to there Hidden Worlds to rebuild while a few broke away and were lost. The plan being to rebuild on the Hidden Worlds so they could eventually have themselves a second Jihad. But with only two Hidden Worlds and very few assets left the WoB probably has had a very tough time rebuilding with any speed. There warships probably don't even have docks to maintain there warships either.

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haesslich

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #31 on: 09 February 2019, 16:19:48 »
This gave me a good laugh, thank you.  ;D

Tell me Ace Combat 7 didn't make you think Wobblies after the big reveal.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #32 on: 09 February 2019, 18:05:52 »
This gave me a good laugh, thank you.  ;D
Hell, Word Of Belka even makes the anagram work. 

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #33 on: 09 February 2019, 18:09:36 »
My money is that most of the Word retreated to there Hidden Worlds to rebuild while a few broke away and were lost. The plan being to rebuild on the Hidden Worlds so they could eventually have themselves a second Jihad. But with only two Hidden Worlds and very few assets left the WoB probably has had a very tough time rebuilding with any speed. There warships probably don't even have docks to maintain there warships either.
the Erinyes went missing at the end of the Jihad as well. and we never knew exactly how many Newgrange's the WOB managed to find and salvage.

Tell me Ace Combat 7 didn't make you think Wobblies after the big reveal.
Hell, Word Of Belka even makes the anagram work. 


(i haven't had a chance to play that yet. though since they were the baddies in AC5 and ACZero, and contributed to the baddies in AC6..)

« Last Edit: 09 February 2019, 18:12:01 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #34 on: 10 February 2019, 00:06:02 »
I think most are on their remaining hidden worlds with the rest scattered about. I don't think they joined the Home World Clans. Invaded for mutual distruction, maybe, but not jpined. They might have joined the Genecast though and/or that group of mermaids in the periphery but I think they're hiding and preparing the way for the Tetatae invasion so they can emerge from hiding as the Saviors of the Inner Sphere.

haesslich

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #35 on: 10 February 2019, 16:28:04 »
Hell, Word Of Belka even makes the anagram work.
.. Wrath of Belka fits better, given all the story events in previous games.

« Last Edit: 10 February 2019, 16:29:36 by haesslich »

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #36 on: 11 February 2019, 11:36:25 »
the omni pods have omnipods
When did that become a thing?  Or is my sarcasm detector on the fritz again?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #37 on: 11 February 2019, 12:04:32 »
When did that become a thing?  Or is my sarcasm detector on the fritz again?

i was joking about the absurdity of a clans + wobbie tech merger

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #38 on: 13 February 2019, 14:50:37 »
What about surviving leaders?  Who was not captured or confirmed dead (as in a body to display) when their known concentrations were eliminated?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #39 on: 13 February 2019, 17:19:01 »
i was joking about the absurdity of a clans + wobbie tech merger
Other than the Interface Cockpit, which the Clans already have, and maybe Purifier armor tech, what would the Wobbies have the Clans would even want?

C3i:  HARD PASS!

Light Gauss:  Why bother?

VSPL:  meh.

Vehicular Stealth armor:  Are you trying to get me Reaved, queaff?
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Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #40 on: 13 February 2019, 17:26:18 »
but omni-podded omni pods. they interest you, aff?

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #41 on: 13 February 2019, 17:52:27 »
but omni-podded omni pods. they interest you, aff?
Does it come in black?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #42 on: 13 February 2019, 19:07:02 »
My take on the WOB, is that when it fell apart most of the missing Shadow Divisions of elite troops and naval assets fell back to "hidden" worlds to regroup and defend them.
Those high enough who could still pass, as Comstar returned to fold as "deep sleeper" agents.
Low level people were left to "hang" and be that final distraction to the rest escaping.

But in the end the factions that made up WOB, endup being it's finally downside, as they turned on each other during the "regrouping".  Kinda like how Venus and the Shunners died.  Yep there are still remains out there of them, but I am not expecting to see them pulling a SLDF and returning as "New Clans"
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #43 on: 13 February 2019, 21:11:20 »
I expect to find out WOB remnants were in some way behind Grey Monday.  Other than that, I think we have heard the last of the wobblies.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #44 on: 13 February 2019, 21:19:08 »
What about surviving leaders?  Who was not captured or confirmed dead (as in a body to display) when their known concentrations were eliminated?

So no opinions on this?  What kind of forum is this that no one has a opinion??
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #45 on: 13 February 2019, 21:58:33 »
So no opinions on this?  What kind of forum is this that no one has a opinion??

Berith canonically escaped, and was the most senior member of the manei domni to do so. But he also had the DNI implants and triple core processor. Unless he consented to have them removed he wasn't likely to have survived into the next century. Avitue I think was also unaccounted for.

We don't have much else to go on regarding the leadership.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #46 on: 13 February 2019, 22:07:41 »
Well, we know Berith escaped. Avitue most likely did as well.

Honestly, I'm not really sure who you can point to that's named and dead with a body to display except for the Master, because his death is from an omniscient view point, and maybe Naamah.

Everyone else...I'm not really sure on.

Even Apollyon could've simply been broadcasting to the Regulan forces via a live HPG link, and with the Super HPGs, he could've been anywhere within 1000 L-Y.

So...yeah...

grimlock1

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #47 on: 13 February 2019, 23:45:25 »
 Thing is, if you were in a Shadow Division, you were hard core.  These weren't the "Sunday Blakists."  Most of these folks aren't going to stand down quietly. Same goes for ROM (or whatever spooky name  WoB had for intel spooks) folks are spies, except they are going to keep fighting by standing down, going quiet, and sending regular reports....

But the rest of the Shadow Divs?  It almost feels like a plot hole that there weren't years of mopping up action against Level II's and Level III's of former Shadow Divisions. Even without the VDNI, most of them are going to be dead or retired by the 3150s.
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #48 on: 14 February 2019, 00:07:51 »
Yeah the time for a blakiat resurgence by the units gone to ground is well passed, even by 3100. The only option for post blackout is sibko style warrior school on the hidden world, raised from birth. A 20 year old recruit in 3075 is going to be 75 in 3150. There are plenty of old people running mechs but I wouldn’t build an army around them

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #49 on: 14 February 2019, 00:44:44 »
What if the Blakeists have been remarshalling their strength? Sure, the old guard is largely gone by now but they could easily have large populations on these hidden worlds, populations that have been steadily militarising and preparing for the return, trained by the veterans who fought the IS and Clans in the first Jihad.
They had the assets and capacity to do this, as well as the time and forethought. A resurgent WOB is quite easy to imagine when you consider that they could easily have entire planetary populations to call on, not to mention potentially stolen Iron Womb technology to mass-produce genetically engineered soldiers. They proved they had the insight to build hidden caches, strongpoints and even factories and industrial bases, why not something larger that is still hidden?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #50 on: 14 February 2019, 00:53:48 »
Well, the OP posted 3095 which is why I asked who might lead after the official conclusion of the Jihad.

Thought Avitue died on New Avalon, man I have to go back and re-read that ending.
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #51 on: 14 February 2019, 01:00:02 »
this has been going on far too long to do silly things like read the thread title

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #52 on: 14 February 2019, 06:46:34 »
So something is bothering me, the fact that WoB has an active warship with support of their latest and greatest fighters to attack an unnamed planet a hop away from McEvedy's Folly. If memory serves correct the Jihad had died in 3081 roughly with the defeat of WoB on terra? Now I know they still would have had some assets, but surely a late model carrier with next gen fighters? Seems a bit rich. Now admittedly its classed as canon rumour, but is there any more info of still active Wob assets post jihad?

I am more interested in the motivation for the attack. Why was the WOB trying to prevent info about the Wolverines form being uncovered? Are they adversaries, secret origin, or some tech or info they do not want the IS to have. And how would any of that change anything?

After finally coming around to accepting all the shadow divisions coming out of thin air, a still active warship is not much of a stretch for me.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #53 on: 14 February 2019, 09:14:47 »
I am more interested in the motivation for the attack. Why was the WOB trying to prevent info about the Wolverines form being uncovered? Are they adversaries, secret origin, or some tech or info they do not want the IS to have. And how would any of that change anything?

After finally coming around to accepting all the shadow divisions coming out of thin air, a still active warship is not much of a stretch for me.
Why would the WoB care if info about the Wolverines came out?  They are about the most hated people since the Usurper.  Everyone thinks they're dead.  Can your reputation get worse? And if so, who cares?

Idle question, what book was this in?  And is there any indication the WoB was able to make off with anything/anyone?  ie. Scientists and Techs. That snakes back to the joking between Sartis and I. I question how useful WoB reprogramming can be on someone you want to work as a scientist.  How do you convince someone that there are five lights, and still trust they can still calculate armor thickness properly?  You can always use cruder methods, but that just leaves you checking for sabotage.  Pick your poison, but if WoB was able to grab a good chunk of Clan tech base and take it back to a hidden world?  Have them spend 50 years taking all the new IS weapons and rebuilding them to Clan standards

8 ton/3 crit light gauss  8)

Clan VSPs with 20-30% more damage and half again the range  :'(


Other than the Interface Cockpit, which the Clans already have, and maybe Purifier armor tech, what would the Wobbies have the Clans would even want?

C3i:  HARD PASS!

Light Gauss:  Why bother?

VSPL:  meh.

Vehicular Stealth armor:  Are you trying to get me Reaved, queaff?
« Last Edit: 14 February 2019, 11:55:17 by grimlock1 »
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #54 on: 14 February 2019, 09:38:07 »
Clan Wolverine is certainly not the most hated faction since the Usurper. There may be a couple Clans that have traditions in place about this, but the core issue is still mostly opaque if your not following their storyline.

I just don't think there are very many people in the Inner Sphere that bang their thumb with a hammer somewhere in the deeps of a major faction and curse "those damned Wolverines" the way that the hardcore Clan Wolverine dramatists might like to imagine.

Frankly, at face value, Clan Wolverine appear to be professional victims of Battletech, but that might be a somewhat unfair characterization from the Dev chairs. There's just this perpetually unresolved set of issues about their historical role that regularly drifts into AU territory.

Maybe this is just one of those larger themes of the BTU that I'm not seeing clearly through the fog. It's not a terrible thing, for instance, for the otherwise sensible seeming Ghost Bears, for instance, to carry an unreasonable Straw Man, like Clan Wolverine, into the Dark Age and beyond.
« Last Edit: 14 February 2019, 10:11:17 by Easy »

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #55 on: 14 February 2019, 09:58:58 »
Have you read betrayal of ideals? I thought it pretty clearly spelled out the historical stigma against clan wolverine

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #56 on: 14 February 2019, 10:16:45 »
I have not, and I'm not trying to criticize the trope. I like a bit of mystery as much as the next reader. Whenever I try to place this faction, however, I feel like I'm left begging the question as to why we haven't seen an official appearance yet, in the face of the endless rumor-mongering.

Am I wrong, or is it time for the Clan Wolverine to show it's face and defend it's honor, or be like the Star League, which will at least show the flag when it's turn comes up.

I might be looking at it from the perspective of anticipating ilClan, which at least has the promise of putting stuff like this on the map.
« Last Edit: 14 February 2019, 10:18:37 by Easy »

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #57 on: 14 February 2019, 10:41:26 »
Opps. Did not mean to start a Wolverine discussion.

As for the warship, the clans have SL ships hundreds of years old, and in battletech there was many war machines just as old.  Warship and ASFs still operating, what less then 20 years after the jihad, not that hard.

But yeah, it is going to need a lot of support. Again, the hidden cache thing is popular in this universe to.

Have you read betrayal of ideals? I thought it pretty clearly spelled out the historical stigma against clan wolverine

A false history written by those who betrayed Clan Wolverine.

 ;D could not help myself, check my sig.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #58 on: 14 February 2019, 11:04:09 »
Opps. Did not mean to start a Wolverine discussion.

As for the warship, the clans have SL ships hundreds of years old, and in battletech there was many war machines just as old.  Warship and ASFs still operating, what less then 20 years after the jihad, not that hard.


It's tangential. McEvedy's Folly certainly evokes the fate of Clan Wolverine, but the possibility of a secret WoB/Wolverine confrontation is probably ground too promising to dismiss out of hand, as it could be possible to grab a bull by the horns and let a WoB remnant be the foil for a canon reappearance of the Wolverines, or what may have become. That would take a commitment, though, as I am trying to solicit, somewhat, to put them on the ilClan map, somewhere.

How long must these toys remain in the attic? An encounter between the WoB and Clan Wolverine, leaving one of them a 'player' in 3150+ might be just the thing, but we won't know as long as they remain in the 'possibly closeted' category. If that is the case, it must be a challenge to try and break either one of these factions out of fairy-tale land.
« Last Edit: 14 February 2019, 11:05:53 by Easy »

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #59 on: 14 February 2019, 11:08:36 »
So . . . you really do need to read Betrayal of Ideals since it answers some of your questions.

Anybody ever have a list of what/where the last sighting of disappeared units where?  Anyone else think disappeared mercs become a new sort of 'protectorate militia'?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #60 on: 14 February 2019, 11:17:22 »
A false history written by those who betrayed Clan Wolverine.

 ;D could not help myself, check my sig.

characterizing nicky k as an uncompromising megalomaniac that sacrificed a dynamic, prosperous, and noble clan wolverine to satiate the petty, small-minded, and envious khans while showing that widowmaker and the cruel fate of war were clearly responsible for the war crimes ascribed to the wolverines in the clan historical record seems like a very poor piece of anti-wolverine propaganda.

also

Quote from: Blaine Lee Pardoe, Betrayal of ideals pg 234
[speaking during a BattleTech seminar at GenCon] I know a number of people feel I'm retconning the Wolverines, that I'm not following the established history of the BattleTech universe. To those people, I just want to say, "SCREW YOU."

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #61 on: 14 February 2019, 11:45:51 »
So . . . you really do need to read Betrayal of Ideals since it answers some of your questions.

Anybody ever have a list of what/where the last sighting of disappeared units where?  Anyone else think disappeared mercs become a new sort of 'protectorate militia'?

OK, I'll put it on my lengthy research list.

I would like to point out something, possibly painfully obvious. There are a lot of factions, groups and bands running around on the big map and through the timelines. There is simply not enough Dev time to address everybody's favorite faction. What's the takeaway? I've found that there is one effective resource, the most important, that can carry your faction into the next source book, or canon story, and that's you.

We're talking about WoB here, but I think the principle sticks. For instance, a particularly noteworthy unit, (and I ain't gonna lie, I keep the Eridani Light Horse on life support), might merit a mention in the next source, because there is enough interest on the forums, or in conversation in the CGL break room, to merit an encyclopedic entry with a bit of flavor. So, for instance, I get an honorable mention of another glorious stand by my beloved Light Horse on Hesperus for the Dark Age, WoB and Wolverines get diddly-squat.

Is this because there are still people here lobbying for them, or even telling stories? I'd like to hope so.

To quote Willy Wonka, "Who's going to take care of the Oompa Loompas?"

So, I think in many cases, that quote from Pardoe makes sense, if this is the takeaway, if you don't want your patient to die, get in there and reveal some of that glory needed to secure their place in the official history. This is, sort of, how I imagine how the roles of writer and player inter-operate on a practical level.

Does this mean I'm going to get my story about the Eridani Light Horse's righteous war on Defiance Industries for locking them out, to die at the hands of the Crusader Clans, in the 3140s? Possibly, but I might have to be willing to write it myself.

I think this applies to the WoB, and the Wolverines, as well. That's all. If we can even solicit a fan fiction, regarding them, it can help move them out into the light.

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #62 on: 14 February 2019, 11:56:13 »
Clan Wolverine is certainly not the most hated faction since the Usurper. There may be a couple Clans that have traditions in place about this, but the core issue is still mostly opaque if your not following their storyline.
I was talking about the WoB.  Sorry
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #63 on: 14 February 2019, 12:17:39 »
ELH lasted into the Dark Ages b/c they were one of the MWDA merc units, but they are dead like the dodo and intentionally so by TPTB.  Now that is not to say with new leaders at the helm they may not have Kell Hounds free some bondsmen from the Horses to reform their old merc unit, the ELH.
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #64 on: 14 February 2019, 14:21:09 »
Sorry bad quoting on my part. I was referring to the "historical stigma against Clan Wolverine" as it is accepted in the clans, not in BoL.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #65 on: 14 February 2019, 20:48:03 »
ELH lasted into the Dark Ages b/c they were one of the MWDA merc units, but they are dead like the dodo and intentionally so by TPTB.  Now that is not to say with new leaders at the helm they may not have Kell Hounds free some bondsmen from the Horses to reform their old merc unit, the ELH.

Didn't the Dragoons and the ELH have a tight relationship, post Misery?  Didn't an ELH carry a pennant for a Dragoon unit that was wiped out, during their review parade for Hanse?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #66 on: 15 February 2019, 11:44:52 »
Didn't the Dragoons and the ELH have a tight relationship, post Misery?  Didn't an ELH carry a pennant for a Dragoon unit that was wiped out, during their review parade for Hanse?

I'm not sure. My impression is that the 3025 ELH/WD relationship was more complimentary than not. I suppose the connection here is that both were targeted by the WoB and nuked into oblivion. "Clearing the board", they call it.

Maybe the point is that WoB regularly did the 'impossible' during the Jihad and so their ultimate fate may be hazy because they excel at being hazy. Maybe their just that chaotic on the inside. It may be noted that the WoB's technological advances are all military in nature. Even the advanced cybernetics and implants and such, that we get stats for, are military in application. Granted, it's a war game, but it's not like there's this new quality of life in the Inner Sphere due to the wonders invented by the WoB science teams. Just the opposite, in fact. So, you get factions like the Regulans that just purge it all.

Like Comstar, they are so effective at the squirrel-away and cache game that ridding the galaxy of them all isn't nearly as effective as having a kind of immune system, that simply keeps them from massing and acquiring enough assets that they would be confident in a campaign.

It's probably too much to assume that every planet, everywhere, would have the wherewithal to resist attempts to hijack whatever they got going on in service of the WoB psychopathy, along it's whole spectrum, from galaxy beaters to just another minor terrorist group on a watch list.

But we're reluctant to just call the post-Jihad a terrorist group on par with the half-dozen other infamous ones in the Inner Sphere. We've been primed by the WoB Jihad Era to see them fielding fleets and divisions. Much more difficult for one designated force to defeat that. That was Stone's genius, to embrace the horror, to realize that there were planetary populations willing to go along with them, to take them at face value as a true nation.

This is probably why they hit on the solution of the Republic Of The Sphere. An enlightened sovereign nation was the one thing that the WoB couldn't beat, because it was their own promise to the Chaos March, to make of them a united power, but, only Stone did it better.
« Last Edit: 15 February 2019, 12:06:23 by Easy »

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #67 on: 15 February 2019, 12:19:48 »
You know, a fun post-Jihad story to play during Stone's kool-aid era would be to give the Word of Blake a divided warlord type nature and rip off the Warlord Zsinj strategy from  the 2nd X-Wing series by Allison.

A Blakist-believing warlord gathers up what military splinters he can contact and persuade to follow him.  He sends out his new ROM,LoM, and maybe MD (Ghost/Wraith types) to infiltrate planets & businesses to build a revenue/supply stream right under the noses of the recovering Houses & Periphery with his/her growing empire being attributed to general economic rebound.  This would be a way to gain a larger support base, but it would be covert and not supply as much as a direct support base like the hidden worlds.
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #68 on: 15 February 2019, 12:50:41 »
I'm not sure. My impression is that the 3025 ELH/WD relationship was more complimentary than not. I suppose the connection here is that both were targeted by the WoB and nuked into oblivion. "Clearing the board", they call it.

Maybe the point is that WoB regularly did the 'impossible' during the Jihad and so their ultimate fate may be hazy because they excel at being hazy. Maybe their just that chaotic on the inside. It may be noted that the WoB's technological advances are all military in nature. Even the advanced cybernetics and implants and such, that we get stats for, are military in application. Granted, it's a war game, but it's not like there's this new quality of life in the Inner Sphere due to the wonders invented by the WoB science teams. Just the opposite, in fact. So, you get factions like the Regulans that just purge it all.
Unless the MD production lines created economies of scale that made higher end prosthetics more affordable, but there's quite the stigma about that now.  On the other hand, didn't the Wraiths have prosthetics that were almost indistinguishable from the real deal? 
Implants derived from the communications or triple core processor might find their way into niche, high end markets.  1%ers or hackers and such.

Filtration Liver and Filtration Lungs, on the other hand could be re purposed for civilian use. "So the cancer is in your heart, liver, lungs and prostate.  No worries, we can fix all that, except the prostate.  You're on your own there."


But we're reluctant to just call the post-Jihad a terrorist group on par with the half-dozen other infamous ones in the Inner Sphere. We've been primed by the WoB Jihad Era to see them fielding fleets and divisions.
With such a crazed power structure, riddled with infighting, how can we ever be certain that the Mater wasn't really working for the Emperor and the War Plan for the Jihad lives in a file folder labeled "Phase 3 of 10."  Short of plying the devs with alcohol, that is.  Any documents or records that Stone et al are suspect. Focht knew there still Blakists in his Comstar, but he had no clue of the depth, or the resources they had even before the schism. One friend is convinced that the Master would occasionally manipulate Focht via implanted triggers/commands.

Much more difficult for one designated force to defeat that. That was Stone's genius, to embrace the horror, to realize that there were planetary populations willing to go along with them, to take them at face value as a true nation.

This is probably why they hit on the solution of the Republic Of The Sphere.
 
I know Stone was already thinking about what would become the Republic fairly early on.  One of the books has the meeting where he sold Victor Davion on the idea. But how widespread was this thinking?  The higher echelons of the Coalition probably had ideas that Stone was going to create a new nation, but how much did the troops know?

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #69 on: 15 February 2019, 13:17:39 »
Why should the WOB come back as the bad guy?  Why can't they come back and "save" Terra/the Republic?  The leaders that were left were the more "moderate" of the bunch and wasn't it was speculated that Berith was more loyal to Terra than WOB in particular?

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #70 on: 15 February 2019, 13:50:26 »
Trying to avoid Rule 4 . . .

It raises a spectre . . . say NATO vs Warsaw Pact had kicked off in the early 60s, West Germany would have been the frontlines.  The Cold War gets hot, and suddenly West Germany gets a lot of volunteer infantry regiments, armor crew battalions (need tanks), and wings of pilots (without planes) from South American countries- who just happen to speak native German.  The volunteers include a large number of veterans in their 40s leading younger troopers, all in field gray.  Perhaps a few elite formations are also formed that wear a black uniform.

Just how receptive would West Germany be to such volunteers?  How would fellow NATO allies the UK, US and France be to such volunteers?
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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #71 on: 15 February 2019, 15:54:16 »
Trying to avoid Rule 4 . . .

It raises a spectre . . . say NATO vs Warsaw Pact had kicked off in the early 60s, West Germany would have been the frontlines.  The Cold War gets hot, and suddenly West Germany gets a lot of volunteer infantry regiments, armor crew battalions (need tanks), and wings of pilots (without planes) from South American countries- who just happen to speak native German.  The volunteers include a large number of veterans in their 40s leading younger troopers, all in field gray.  Perhaps a few elite formations are also formed that wear a black uniform.

Just how receptive would West Germany be to such volunteers?  How would fellow NATO allies the UK, US and France be to such volunteers?
...

...

...

That could be a frickin' awesome novel or two.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

Elmoth

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #73 on: 15 February 2019, 16:56:18 »
Now that you said it, I cannot picture the Republic as anything but as phase 7 of the WoB plot.

DEVLIN IS THE MASTER!!!!

WoB actually WON the Jihad.

Xavi

grimlock1

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #74 on: 15 February 2019, 20:59:00 »
Then go find Watch on the Rhine if you have not read it.

https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Rhine-Wacht-Legacy-Aldenata-ebook/dp/B00AP91Y6A/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=watch+on+the+rhine&qid=1550261464&s=gateway&sr=8-3

I think I got that in a bundle from Baen Free Library...


Now that you said it, I cannot picture the Republic as anything but as phase 7 of the WoB plot.

DEVLIN IS THE MASTER!!!!

WoB actually WON the Jihad.

Xavi
No, the WoB hasn't won.  Yet.  Winning comes in Phase 12.  Of 10.   :smirk:
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #75 on: 15 February 2019, 22:07:40 »
Now that you said it, I cannot picture the Republic as anything but as phase 7 of the WoB plot.

DEVLIN IS THE MASTER!!!!

WoB actually WON the Jihad.

Xavi

Fun fact, when the Master died he was convinced that he HAD won.

His victory condition wasn't to defeat the Inner Sphere, it was to unify it. He believed that by giving them a common enemy to rally against, he'd succeeded. Not as he had originally intended, but a victory none the less. He believed Stone was going to complete the prophesied "Third Transfer", having defeated the Word of Blake and established the Republic.

And if Stone failed, he said those they "left behind" would have to remind the inner sphere of the lessons they were supposed to learn.

(This is all covered in the opening fic in Jihad:Final Reckoning. Additional fun fact, I vaguely recall that one of the old powers that be indicated there were plans to have the Master's followers return in some form eventually)

I think something we sometimes miss when we come up with these relatively mundane, rational conspiracy theories is that we don't think crazy enough, hung up on the idea of a conventional victory, and we forget that the Manei Domini and Word of Blake were actually considered expendable if it furthered the Master's goals.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

glitterboy2098

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #76 on: 15 February 2019, 22:38:16 »
...

...

...

That could be a frickin' awesome novel or two.
A watch on the Rhine by John Ringo.
and actually the novel is as bad as the premise sounds.

Colt Ward

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Re: Wob in 3095?? (McEvedy's Folly incident)
« Reply #77 on: 15 February 2019, 23:56:01 »
Well, its a different premise except for that certain set of soldiers being used.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.

 

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