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Author Topic: Need help fighting tanks!!!  (Read 3819 times)

Sartris

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #60 on: 23 October 2019, 11:59:57 »
a-pods are trigger weapons - you can't just pop them on a whim

Cannonshop

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #61 on: 23 October 2019, 16:39:15 »
I just had my first experience using a tank and had a really good time.  The sheer mass of armor was really effective as was the ability to fire all of my weapons and not care about heat.

That being said I could see that tanks have a LOT of weaknesses to exploit.  Even being attacked from the front my tank could be immobilized and I nearly was, the only thing keeping me in the fight was that I backed the tank into a little corner and since I was the biggest target the mechs all stayed close to me allowing me to shoot and that I had a turret and LRMs allowing me to indirect fire when they did move out of sight.  With a few lucky hits a tank could be taken out of a fight much more often than a mech of the same value.  And this was a combat with a minimum of weapons that are more effective on tanks (namely they had some SRMs and one LB10x AC but had no infernos, no plasma weaponry, and even the stuff they did have were not able to be massed against me).  If they did have more weapons that were extra effective against tanks I do not think it would have lasted long even with the huge amount of armor.

I now have a lot of respect for tanks but I also see that they have a lot of weaknesses to exploit that really compensate for their advantages.  I will say though that their advantages are the type that can also be used to absolutely devastating effect if you can put them in the right situation.

WHY DID YOU TRY TO MOVE????

Okay, quick piece of advice; unless your tank is under 70 tons, you shouldn't be moving much.  re-read the hit location tables and crit charts, the game rewards you for parking your tank and relying on ranged fire.  especially if your tank moves 3/5 or slower and comes equipped with turrets.  why is that? because the bulk and majority of your criticals hit the motive systems, and unlike a 'mech, you don't have a squishy head that can be capped with a single shot.  the result is, most of the critical hits will migrate right down to your treads, so if you aren't moving, it's having zero impact on your ability to keep slinging accurate fire, and barring a lucky hit (a VERY lucky hit) with a lucky crit, they can't really do much of anything about it, except avoid your zone of fire, or rush up for a physical attack-they've got to wear through your armor to do anything to stop you from being able to fire.

if your tank moves 4/6 or higher, congratulations, you have the option of firing and moving without taking a major penalty on your to-hit.

but for the majority of the newer designs and bigger sellers, your tank is a bunker with just enough movement to emplace itself, mobility tactics on 3/5 or slower are a waste of effort.

I beats the Urbie to death with my CHARGER!!!

Crimson Dawn

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #62 on: 24 October 2019, 03:16:12 »
WHY DID YOU TRY TO MOVE????

Okay, quick piece of advice; unless your tank is under 70 tons, you shouldn't be moving much.  re-read the hit location tables and crit charts, the game rewards you for parking your tank and relying on ranged fire.  especially if your tank moves 3/5 or slower and comes equipped with turrets.  why is that? because the bulk and majority of your criticals hit the motive systems, and unlike a 'mech, you don't have a squishy head that can be capped with a single shot.  the result is, most of the critical hits will migrate right down to your treads, so if you aren't moving, it's having zero impact on your ability to keep slinging accurate fire, and barring a lucky hit (a VERY lucky hit) with a lucky crit, they can't really do much of anything about it, except avoid your zone of fire, or rush up for a physical attack-they've got to wear through your armor to do anything to stop you from being able to fire.

if your tank moves 4/6 or higher, congratulations, you have the option of firing and moving without taking a major penalty on your to-hit.

but for the majority of the newer designs and bigger sellers, your tank is a bunker with just enough movement to emplace itself, mobility tactics on 3/5 or slower are a waste of effort.

Lol I moved once.  My tank started at the edge of a base and then I backed it around a corner behind a wall so that I could fire my LRMs indirectly over the wall (spotted by battle armor) while I waited for the mechs to turn the corner so I could smack them with lasers and SRMs.  The only other time I would have thought about moving is if I had a straight shot at exactly 5 hexes away from a mech then I may have considered a charge at max speed (max speed of 5) since as being an 85 ton tank I think I may have had a fair chance at taking a leg with a charge if I got lucky (though I am not sure as nobody wanted to look up the charging rules with tanks so I could find out the damage at the time).

Cannonshop

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #63 on: 24 October 2019, 09:54:36 »
Lol I moved once.  My tank started at the edge of a base and then I backed it around a corner behind a wall so that I could fire my LRMs indirectly over the wall (spotted by battle armor) while I waited for the mechs to turn the corner so I could smack them with lasers and SRMs.  The only other time I would have thought about moving is if I had a straight shot at exactly 5 hexes away from a mech then I may have considered a charge at max speed (max speed of 5) since as being an 85 ton tank I think I may have had a fair chance at taking a leg with a charge if I got lucky (though I am not sure as nobody wanted to look up the charging rules with tanks so I could find out the damage at the time).
you used your 85 tonner correctly then.  scenarios where you can rely on the enemy 'coming to you' is where those assault class vehicles shine, they don't do well in pursuit, breakthrough, or any sort of maneuver combat, but they're great as what they are (and teh rules encourage  them to be), which is bunkers.

If you're an "offense" player (but don't like to rely on hoverengined hovercraft or the WiGE hovertank playng style), 4/6 is the slowest base movement you can use for playing offense, and at 4/6 you want to be fairly heavy.  (Manticore, Patton or Po unless you can afford that omnitank thing they gave the Fedsuns). in the 55-40 ton bracket, you want a minimum 5/8 if you intend to play offense with your tanks (Myrmidon is your poster-child here).  Below that, invest in Hovers or VTOLs (But NOT the craptastic Yellowjacket.  sure it's got a big gun, it also has a big rotor and losing movement means falling out of the sky to the death of your crew, or redistributing Poland Model A gauss rifles as lucky salvage to the enemy,instead of gauss rifle slugs at high velocity.)

Playing offense with tanks is something where you begin your planning by expecting to lose units.  Even in today's much, much, longer rolling fest for tank damage, you're not QUITE as tough as a 'mech when it comes to playing offense-it's going to be easier for the enemy to counter them, take this into account, and compensate for it in your tactics.

for example: move into "Hull down" positions whenever possible before firing, but don't linger there more than 1-2 rounds, keep as many hexes as you can manage at cruise between you and your start-point every movement phase, make use of your turret, to keep slinging shell until you either lose turret motion, or run out of ammo, space vehicles for mutual supporting fire, but not so close that one artillery strike from an Arrow IV can nail both.

GROUP your SHOTS.  if you have 3 potential targets, pick the one that you have more units in a position to hit them with, and concentrate that fire with all available units.  Tanks on offense are all about bringing it to decisive QUICKLY, before you lose too many MP or have too many units locked up/knocked out.  losing 1/4 of a 'mech lance is more of a problem than losing 1/4 of a tank company.

Run similar chassis.  If you do nothing else, all your tanks of a given weight should be the same model and class.  This simplifies book-keeping and it simplifies mass fire by grouping them together for movement and engagement.  Running in pairs with just a couple hexes of separation also means that when his light 'mech jumps onto one of your tanks, the other can 'scratch the back' at good to-hit numbers.  It also means that there is no way in double-blind that you're not going to see that enemy unit.

this stuff is basic, you probably already know all of it.  the takeaway is the first statement: assume you will lose units and plan accordingly. Move your tanks in a staggered echelon, roughly 2 hexes apart across open terrain, where each wing pair is within short/medium range of each other, with fire envelopes from main guns overlapping.  In urban, stagger them in column formation with VTOL support a similar distance.  This relieves SOME of the pressure the other side can apply using physical attacks.  Not all, just some. 

with small LRM racks (5s) use smoke rounds to screen your forces wehn crossing open terrain against heaiver or clantech forces.  a company of Pattons laying smoke and loading Precision in 3055-3060 play can wreak havoc on a star or even a Nova of clan units by using PA instead of standard shot out of those outdated 3025 era main guns.  a company of Po are even better at this due to the effectiveness vs. Suited infantry.  for lighter use, Myrmidons should carry infernoes whenever possible, to make life less comfortable for points of Elemental BA or similar forces.  Infantry on the attack should probably best be handled with Mechanized as opposed to Motorized, and should ideally fill in the gaps between tanks in the formation, riding somewhere in the gaps between your leading and trailing echelons, to give them reaction room once the enemy is engaged, except in forested or urban terrain, where your infantry should ideally be running point/flank security.

when working with BA, it's by faction and type.  quad suits like the Fenrir fill in the gaps between tanks in formation, or run ahead where it's convenient (sweeping through buildings or wooded areas to get ahead of the formation.)  Humanoid suits should likely be devoted either to Battelemech support, or partner with your self-moving bunkers in a defensive arrangement, as they can't keep up with your faster tanks.  Fa Shih, of course, can 'tank ride'.

when working in conjunction with 'mechs, the 'mechs should ideally be kitted for close range or sniper duty, and match or exceed your tank units in movement.  They're tougher, let them take point whenever it's practical and use your tanks to exploit what they open up, again, concentrate fire whenever you can to keep your 'mechwarriors in fighting trim by reducing the amount of damage they have to soak via killing the enemy faster.  for faster, tougher designs meant to close-up and scrap, (Wraith, some variations of other 55 to 65 ton 'mechs over 5/8) a diamond formation works best-the trailing tank should be in medium range for your point 'man' in the 'mech, with the 'wing' tanks being at short to medium with either main guns, or long-ranged secondary weapons.  (Gauss Rommel is a good choice for wing/trail tanks, but Po with that lovely LBX is also a good option.  avoid Ultra-Patton like the curse and plague it is-the Ultra always jams at the worst possible time, and requires going back to the rear to unjam it.)

Tanks to avoid on offense: anything that lacks a turret.  if you can't get 360 degrees sweep with your main gun, you're going to be exposing yourself to accurate return fire just to get one or two shots off before being immobilized and taken (effectively) out of the fight.

Tanks to avoid on Defense: same thing, unless you've got a map-decided choke point and hidden units rules in play.

The exception: SAvannahmaster, hovertanks with good speed (7 or more) on swampy, flattish ground.

Movement on Offense should resemble a school of fish-that is, your tanks should move as one, changing direction as one, choosing a vector as one.  Tanks work best in open-spaced phalanxes.  If you want more 'spread out' bring other unit types (VTOL, hover, 'mech)  if you lose tanks in the center, drift one flank or the other (or both) to close it up, but always, always keep moving.

I beats the Urbie to death with my CHARGER!!!

StoneRhino

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #64 on: 05 November 2019, 05:38:22 »
 >:D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

hahaha...

First I have to ask how you are regulating the games? Are you using Battle Value, the point system for Battletech, or something else?

Tanks can compete with mechs, as you have seen, but they several disadvantages going against them. The mechs may seem vulnerable to critical hits, but mechs are far more durable as they can lose locations and survive. Critical hits are also a lot softer on mechs then vehicles that can outright destroy them, kill their crew, blow up their weapons and ammo, in addition to the motive system problems. While tanks can compete, they are far more fragile then mechs and their BV is overvalued.

The easiest way to destroy a tank is through critical hits and destroying their motive system. There is a reason why a certain amount of armor is either to light or just a waste of bv. If the armor is to light then you can be killed through the destruction of a location. An example would be anything under 20 points per location for something moving 4/6. Some designs go nuts and add close to 100 points to the front. Its nice, but by the time someone eats through those 100 points the tank has long been destroyed through other means.

Some ways of killing or crippling the tanks would be:
LBX cannons using cluster rounds
SRMs for shear numbers spam
Inferno SRMs since each missile gets an automatic roll for a critical
Autocannons with Armor Piercing ammo
Infantry- for all of those 2 point clusters

In one of the last games that I played I had a Jenner C2, which has 3 MML5s, jump behind a fresh Alacorn tank. If I used standard srm ammo I would have done a decent amount of damage to the tank's rear armor and a chance to hurt it's motive system and maybe a crit or two. Instead I used inferno srm ammo and landed at least 6 chances to get a critical. The result was that I had crit everything that the tank had in the location, which left the tank as a pristine paperweight that could only fire forward. I disagree that destroying a tank's engine would allow it to keep firing Gauss rifles, but ignoring that it was an easy kill. That was 1,800+ BV knocked out in one round of fighting by a 800 BV light mech. Had that tank been facing a mech with different weapons and less mobiilty then the tank would have been a major threat and likely for more then a single turn.

If you change how you attack his tanks then you should see things shift significantly.

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #65 on: 06 November 2019, 12:05:05 »
One thing that I and a number of friends overlooked for years was side mounted weapons on tanks.  Side weapons are broadside weapons. It never dawned on my until I saw the TRO 3050 Upgrade art of the Puma Assault Tank.  Yeah, it has paired LRM 20s, but if ever find yourself in a position to fire both racks in the same turn, the fewmets have probably hit the windmill.

Tanks don't track heat.  They pay for that by having to carry enough heat sinks to handle all the laser/ppc heat they can generate in a turn.  The OP said no Jihad, so vehicular stealth isn't on the table yet. If you set a few battles in arctic conditions, the tanks will suffer from the snow and ice.  The mechs will to an extent as well, but mechs will also benefit from the frigid temperatures acting like free heat sinks. Bring out the flash bulbs!

Something out of Tac Ops that will help nerf the tank player's missile salvos, in addition to packing a whole pile of AMS on your mechs is Chaff Pods(TO 299).

But the dgorsman's advice on the first page is the best so far.  You're problem isn't about how to fight tanks, or even min-maxed tanks. It's about how to keep the game fun for everyone.
Tighten up rules for play at your table e.g. make it a custom Mech only night with limits on weight/number/BV/etc.  Next time, make it a combined arms night with everyone fielding the same numbers of each type of unit.  Night after that, make it a random grinder (print out a stack of random stock Mech designs pilot balanced for a BV of ~ 2500 or so; every time a Mech drops the player random draws a replacement).  Next time, have a game of TAG.

In general, let players have fun with a challenge other than min/max better than the others.
If you find an "I win" button that lets you roll through tanks by the company, then your tank player is probably going to get frustrated.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #66 on: 06 November 2019, 12:53:22 »
By default, tanks can't fire weapons mounted on both of their sides at the same target unless they're in sponsons.  So unless you're using the expanded vehicle side firing arc rules from TacOps, you're stuck unable to make use of those pods without turning to expose your broadside to the enemy.  Remember, rules in Battletech trump artwork.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #67 on: 06 November 2019, 13:52:00 »
One thing that I and a number of friends overlooked for years was side mounted weapons on tanks.  Side weapons are broadside weapons. It never dawned on my until I saw the TRO 3050 Upgrade art of the Puma Assault Tank.  Yeah, it has paired LRM 20s, but if ever find yourself in a position to fire both racks in the same turn, the fewmets have probably hit the windmill.

Tanks don't track heat.  They pay for that by having to carry enough heat sinks to handle all the laser/ppc heat they can generate in a turn.  The OP said no Jihad, so vehicular stealth isn't on the table yet. If you set a few battles in arctic conditions, the tanks will suffer from the snow and ice.  The mechs will to an extent as well, but mechs will also benefit from the frigid temperatures acting like free heat sinks. Bring out the flash bulbs!

Something out of Tac Ops that will help nerf the tank player's missile salvos, in addition to packing a whole pile of AMS on your mechs is Chaff Pods(TO 299).

But the dgorsman's advice on the first page is the best so far.  You're problem isn't about how to fight tanks, or even min-maxed tanks. It's about how to keep the game fun for everyone. If you find an "I win" button that lets you roll through tanks by the company, then your tank player is probably going to get frustrated.

  My character's unit on Luthien had three Pumas and I let one of the other players use them in the Basin Lake scenario; While the Clan units concentrated on my mechs, he drove the Pumas into the middle of the Clan formations and blasted away at targets in every direction, wreaking damage and destruction around his vehicle lance, while being ignored. I wanted to slap him, because when I was ordered to pull back, those vehicles and crews were doomed, but that's what happens when you let other guys handle your equipment in a campaign -they will commit suicide while you watch them do it.

  Since my group were regular campaigners, and only played set scenarios to train the noobs, if a battle was balanced, the player was either doing it wrong, or the GM forced the player into the situation, such as the series of wave attacks in Kado-guchi Valley. At the end of the battle, the field looked like Roark's Drift with piles of dead omnis like Zulus at the feet of my dug-in lance formations...but I was too tired to sing "Men of Harlech"...

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #68 on: 06 November 2019, 15:13:13 »
By default, tanks can't fire weapons mounted on both of their sides at the same target unless they're in sponsons.  So unless you're using the expanded vehicle side firing arc rules from TacOps, you're stuck unable to make use of those pods without turning to expose your broadside to the enemy.  Remember, rules in Battletech trump artwork.

This was a mix of me not bothering to read the rules closely enough, thinking "putting broad side weapons on a tank is just a stupid idea, why there even be a rule for that?",  and the art supporting my bias. It does have some interesting implications, namely the plethora of vehicles with machine guns left and right for infantry repellent. The Challenger X's Streak 2s are good for discouraging backstabbers and BA from angling for the rear arc.  The Peregrine VTOL, once I use enough brain bleach to erase the TRO art with it's fixed forward SRM-4s, conjures shades of the AC-130, and strafing runs. Strafing runs would allow the Peregrine to maintain volume of fire, a high movement mod, and keep the distance against slow moving targets.

But other machines like the Puma, or worse, the Magi!  ::facepalm:: I get the Chaparral with it's side mlas and rear SRM-6.  It's artillery.  If the enemy is inside of 9 hexes, this thing should be running away.  Demon, side mounted MLAS, backing up a turreted Gauss.  Okay.  The Magi???  Three medium lasers that can't be brought to bear on a single target?  70 tons, 5/8 movement, and a functional damage out put of 9 points?

Secondary target rule won't suffice for firing both left and right broad sides?  Obviously not at the same target, baring sponsons.

  My character's unit on Luthien had three Pumas and I let one of the other players use them in the Basin Lake scenario; While the Clan units concentrated on my mechs, he drove the Pumas into the middle of the Clan formations and blasted away at targets in every direction, wreaking damage and destruction around his vehicle lance, while being ignored. I wanted to slap him, because when I was ordered to pull back, those vehicles and crews were doomed, but that's what happens when you let other guys handle your equipment in a campaign -they will commit suicide while you watch them do it.
Sounds like getting into position to use both LRM racks caused the aforementioned introduction of fecal matter and impeller blades. 
« Last Edit: 06 November 2019, 15:21:56 by grimlock1 »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #69 on: 06 November 2019, 15:29:00 »
I thought they could fire through the single forward hex?  Or am I thinking of Tac Ops Vehicle Firing Arcs?
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Kovax

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #70 on: 06 November 2019, 16:07:19 »
Side arc weapons can only fire directly sideways or angled back, not including the hex row directly behind.  They can't even fire into the forward half of the vehicle's inbound fire side arc.  VERY situational, at best.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #71 on: 06 November 2019, 16:17:21 »
The Magi is horrible in regular fights, because that's not what it's built for. It's an urban ambush-breaker. The excess MP and tracked chassis means that, compared to other vehicles, it has an above-average chance of staying mobile even after a hidden infantry platoon or cluster weapon gets a pointblank shot into its side. The spread-out guns means you can hit targets coming from almost any direction with damage clusters big enough to get past the damage reduction of most buildings and no worrying about turret crits locking all your guns in the wrong direction. The heavy armor means that when you pin down infantry as being in a given building hex, you can smash your way in there, where your machine guns will be effective.

Efficient? Hell no. Fun? Hell yes. >:D
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #72 on: 06 November 2019, 16:54:31 »
Those whacky weapon mounts are caused by old TRO designers not actually knowing the rules they were designing for... The weapons are located in a different place than their arc - and apparently no one at FASA noticed that the rules don't actually allow this.

And then for some reason the designs weren't corrected in later publications.

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #73 on: 06 November 2019, 17:01:19 »
Those whacky weapon mounts are caused by old TRO designers not actually knowing the rules they were designing for... The weapons are located in a different place than their arc - and apparently no one at FASA noticed that the rules don't actually allow this.

And then for some reason the designs weren't corrected in later publications.
Somehow that sits better than "FASA was a house of mad geniuses that understood the deep magic of the game, and all the WTF? designs are really hidden gems if know how to use them."
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Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Sartris

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #74 on: 06 November 2019, 17:10:32 »
Those whacky weapon mounts are caused by old TRO designers not actually knowing the rules they were designing for... The weapons are located in a different place than their arc - and apparently no one at FASA noticed that the rules don't actually allow this.

And then for some reason the designs weren't corrected in later publications.

that certainly explains the puma

Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #75 on: 06 November 2019, 17:26:10 »
IIRC the Puma fluff outright states the LRMs fire forward but are mounted on the sides. But there several others - Von Luckner, Peregrine, Galleon... I think the original Sturmfeur had one LRM body-mounted (huh?). We got the original Spad fighter with a fuselage-mounted laser. 3050 gave us fighters with rear wing weapons (has never been legal for fighters) and 3 times the rear weapons the rules allowed in general.

If you're playing on the tabletop the absolutely simplest way to handle it is extended side arcs - If you extended them to straight ahead side weapons are workable.

Colt Ward

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #76 on: 06 November 2019, 17:26:37 »
Didn't the Royal Puma 'fix' that in the fluff?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #77 on: 06 November 2019, 21:58:54 »
Didn't the Royal Puma 'fix' that in the fluff?

If it did, it failed to fix it in the record sheet.

If you're playing on the tabletop the absolutely simplest way to handle it is extended side arcs - If you extended them to straight ahead side weapons are workable.

Pretty much.  Actually makes things like the Puma's LRMs useful.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #78 on: 07 November 2019, 00:21:15 »
Some units are indeed worse than others, but being unable to make an LRM rack useful is 100% a player issue.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #79 on: 07 November 2019, 01:06:33 »
Sticking 20 tons of a tank's firepower into highly restrictive firing arcs that don't offer any overlap with most of the tank's other weaponry and require you to turn one of your weaker faces to the enemy to use is a design flaw, not a player issue.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #80 on: 07 November 2019, 01:33:15 »
I thought they could fire through the single forward hex?  Or am I thinking of Tac Ops Vehicle Firing Arcs?

ASF Wing Arcs converge on the Front Row Hex IIRC but I have never heard of tanks doing that.

I thought they fired similar to mech Arm arcs.
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Simon Landmine

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #81 on: 07 November 2019, 08:35:17 »
IIRC the Puma fluff outright states the LRMs fire forward but are mounted on the sides. But there several others - Von Luckner, Peregrine, Galleon...

Yeah - the first time I fielded a Von Luckner in MegaMek, I forgot that the 'rear-mounted' LRMs didn't fire forward ... until the firing arcs were displayed. "About face!"
"That's Lieutenant Faceplant to you, Corporal!"
Things that I have learnt through clicking too fast on 'Move Done' on MegaMek: Double-check the CF of the building before jumping onto it, check artillery arrival times before standing in the neighbouring hex, and don't run across your own minefield.

Weirdo

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #82 on: 07 November 2019, 10:14:46 »
Sticking 20 tons of a tank's firepower into highly restrictive firing arcs that don't offer any overlap with most of the tank's other weaponry and require you to turn one of your weaker faces to the enemy to use is a design flaw, not a player issue.

I'm not debating that the design is flawed. I'm debating the bit where you implied that the Puma's LRMs can't be useful. 'Useful' and 'Optimized' are NOT the same thing.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #83 on: 07 November 2019, 10:48:34 »
Of course they can be useful. But the usefulness is extremely limited, leaving you with an assault tank that is in practice not much more powerful than a medium tank.

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #84 on: 07 November 2019, 11:13:31 »
It looks like I was wrong, AGAIN.  I thought TO's expanded arcs rule was the standard, but I just went back to TW and read the Vehicle firing arcs as well as page 104 of TW.  If I'm reading this right, then the TW vehicle arc rules are even more restrictive.  On the other hand, the TO expanded rules now put a lot of terrain that used to be Front Arc as now Side Arc, so those side weapons are becoming not just more useful but more important.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Weirdo

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #85 on: 07 November 2019, 11:18:59 »
Of course they can be useful. But the usefulness is extremely limited, leaving you with an assault tank that is in practice not much more powerful than a medium tank.

Like I said, I wasn't debating wether the design was flawed. Just saying that limited usefulness is still usefulness. For example, having a Puma in your force means the peace of mind that comes from knowing enemy flankers will always be hindered by mines or have no woods to shelter in, or that your own units out there will always have smoke to take cover in or have fire support they can call down without drawing resources away from the fight at the front.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #86 on: 07 November 2019, 12:17:38 »
Like I said, I wasn't debating wether the design was flawed. Just saying that limited usefulness is still usefulness. For example, having a Puma in your force means the peace of mind that comes from knowing enemy flankers will always be hindered by mines or have no woods to shelter in, or that your own units out there will always have smoke to take cover in or have fire support they can call down without drawing resources away from the fight at the front.
But using a Puma is drawing resources away from the fight.  Yes, the ability to throw a flight of LRMs out the side on demand can be damn handy, but for most of the battle you will be paying for 20 tons of launcher that you aren't using.  I normally advocate for using that kind of reserve capability to head-fake the other player but this time I'm going to come down on the other side. A lighter, turret mounted missile array would see much more use.

I'm going to call the Puma an "accident" that has some interesting applications.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Weirdo

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #87 on: 07 November 2019, 12:35:04 »
I'm going to call the Puma an "accident" that has some interesting applications.

Agreed.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Col Toda

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #88 on: 08 November 2019, 11:35:05 »
The easiest  solution  is let the tanks take the offensive on not prepared ground . On the defensive on prepared  ground things get really ugly quickly . On prepared ground you think tanks are bad try trailers . Nearly  all offensive  BV . Give those tanks a field of rubble  to go through  and just have a squad stealth battle armor to spot and massed LRM 15 fire from trailers firing indirect from behind a hill.  Dead 4/6 tanks. Figure  3 enemy  tanks against 5 trailers  w 5 LRM 15s w 8 tons of Ammo each  and a squad of spotters .

 

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