Register Register

Author Topic: MotW: Apollo  (Read 4136 times)

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
MotW: Apollo
« on: 08 February 2019, 14:12:01 »

"Orange you glad I didn't say banana?"

NOTE: I maintained this article on a USB drive for a long time as a fill-in article in case someone couldn't get an article up on a particular week. Since I'm not really doing these anymore by popular demand, and the USB drive was needed for another project, I figured today was as good of a time as any to post this and have it out the door.

It's interesting to look at the evolution of design types in the time of Battletech's publication and see how things have changed. Scout Mechs that used to be blisteringly-fast at 6/9/6 now struggle to get away from heavy Mechs, assault Mechs that couldn't cause a PSR with a full alpha strike now can do so with the weapons in their left arm alone, entire new types like the fast heavy have dominated battlefields... but when you get right down to it, the debut of Star League tech didn't change the classic old LRM boat a great deal. Tricks like XL engines and double heat sinks have enhanced their abilities, Narc and Artemis have made them better at their jobs, but the LRM-throwers of 3025 don't feel all that out of place even in the Jihad- in fact, it's safe to say that few 3025 stalwarts have aged as well as those designs have, still just as viable in those later years as they were in their heyday. It's no surprise then that even as new designs began to filter out of Inner Sphere think tanks and factories following the Clan invasion, there was still great need for this type of simple, effective fire support.

Few nations know the need for LRM support as well as the Free Worlds League, where Trebuchets and Archers have long held a greater importance than other places (and that says a lot!), and it's no surprise that Earthwerks saw an opportunity to build a new entry into that field. They stuck with simple, proven techniques to produce a machine called the Apollo- but did they play it a little TOO safe? Is it a decent Mech? Will it put the classic Trebuchet out the pasture, particularly following that design's struggles in 3050? It's complicated.

Despite the FWL having access to both Helm data and a massive industrial base, the Apollo stayed away from most of the new tricks coming out- tricks that were showing up across the FWLM in both good and bad ways. After all, for every effective Marik upgrade like the Awesome or Hermes II, there were odd ones like the Trebuchet or Hunchback to cause head-scratching. This extended to the new designs that followed as well, with some good ideas mixed with other oddballs like the Albatross. With that in mind, the Apollo feels almost quaint- few of the wild tech made it here, which both reduces cost and maintenance difficulty.

We start at the engine, as always, where we find a dinosaur. A simple 220 fusion engine, same as the old days, powers the 55-ton Apollo to a humdrum 65 kph (4/6), with no jump jets added on. A rare use of new tech finds double heat sinks installed, allowing the Apollo to run very cool in most situations, but this is a design that won't be going much of anywhere in a hurry- it paces older heavy formations nicely, but if you want it to find good firing positions the way a Trebuchet's higher speed allows (or a Catapult's jets allow) you may find this a frustrating machine to run.

We didn't do much with the engine, so we had room to make the armor beefier than the Trebuchet. Eleven and a half tons of standard plating cover the Apollo with a skin that can shrug off even an AC/20 round in most places, which is no small feat really on a medium Mech. That's standard plating, again- despite having a glut of open crit spaces, no endo or ferro shows up on this design, and while the former is a difficult field upgrade one can't help but think an upgrade with the latter isn't a bad investment someday- every little bit helps, right?


Some kind of ceramic cover maybe over the LRM racks shattering as it fires? Very unusual.

Any LRM boat is measured by its throw weight- after all, no one cares how fast or tough you are if your firepower is anemic. The Apollo here mimics its predecessor with a pair of Zeus LRM-15s, though unlike the Trebuchet's upgrade the Apollo went with Artemis IV systems over Narc capability. This is a mixed bag- while Narc relies on other units to slap a pod on a target (a downside for sure), Marik at this point is developing plenty of units that can provide that role, not the least of which is the Trebuchet itself and the ubiquitous Orion! To forego that ability in favor of Artemis is almost a pity, and one can't help but think those two tons would be useful elsewhere. The missile batteries have the standard two tons of ammunition each, and both launchers and ammo are buried in the side torsos, freeing the arms up for... well, I almost said 'punching', but if your Apollo is in a fistfight you have done something very wrong.

The standard backup for an LRM boat is medium lasers, which the Trebuchet packed three of. The Apollo made an odd choice, going instead with a pair of center-mounted small pulse lasers. This isn't a great choice here- while they're very handy for getting rid of infantry, they're not particularly helpful for much of anything else- and if your Apollo is on anti-infantry duty for any reason, you Apollo-ed wrong. A pair of medium lasers, bland as they may be, are tried and true in the backup role and would have been a better choice- if all else fails here, the arms are still free for punching if you really need to. (The free arms, with hands and all, also mean Apollos are likely helpful in non-combat roles as well)

There's not a lot here to get excited about, honestly- it's a solid fire-support design, for sure, but it lacks the wow-factor many designs from TRO:3055 have like the Stealth or Hercules. It's a 2002 Toyota Camry- it's not going to turn heads, it's not going to make anyone fall in love with it, but it'll do the job it's made for without any trouble.

But, of course, that was simply the standard 1M model. A simple modification results in the 1R, removing the Artemis systems (I approve) for two more tons of LRM ammo. That's interesting- the Artemis wasn't all that helpful overall for the tonnage it cost, and this simply makes the Apollo able to sustain its bombardment for longer- nothing bad there, for sure. I strongly encourage the use of this model if you have a choice between the 1M or 1R, and if the 2S below is unavailable.

The 2S model debuted soon after the original, and made the swap I mentioned above to put in medium lasers in place of the small pulse lasers. This is simple stuff, hardly justifying an actual variant number, but is considerably more capable of defending itself against the kind of light harassing units that plague LRM boats and should be considered over the standard model whenever possible. Your Apollo shouldn't be fighting infantry- don't set it up to do so.

A bigger departure towards making the Apollo close-combat capable is the 3T model, which drops the LRM batteries down to 10-racks. They retain the Artemis systems (which again aren't really all that helpful, particularly on smaller launchers!), with the four tons of ammo remaining untouched as well. The small pulse lasers went away for the medium lasers in the 2S model, but the tonnage lost in the LRM racks is then put into a medium pulse laser mounted in each arm. This is interesting- the loss of LRM potential, the reason for the Mech to exist, is unfortunate indeed, but the ability to tell a snooping Spider or Pegasus to go the hell away is pretty handy. If you run Apollos, having one of these in a lance with the others can make for a handy bodyguard.


"You wanna get nuts? Let's get nuts!"

And then there's the weirdo. The 4M model comes from the Prototypes TRO, and as such it's got all sorts of changes. The engine becomes an XL at last, but the speed remains 4/6. Ferro-fibrous armor appears, giving slightly less protection as before but with solid weight savings- what could the engineers be up to here? A single ER medium laser in the head replaces the original backup lasers, and... the payoff for all the weight savings, a pair of Extended LRM-15s each fed by a two-ton ammo bin. Wow. I guess it depends on how much you love the ELRM, whether you're a fan of this ride or not- the drawbacks are enormous, but the range is artillery-levels of ridiculous. Since I'm not a huge fan of them, this didn't do much for me, but your experiences may differ wildly.


This thing is so boring even the CCG artwork of it is bland. This is what vanilla looks like.

It remains then only to discuss an offshoot of the Apollo as we wrap up here. With the reveal that Joshua Marik had died in the care of FedCom, the FWL refused sales of the design to the AFFC, and to the LAAF once the Lyran half of FedCom broke away. In response, Steiner developed the Cobra as their Apollo-answer, with a similar setup of LRM-15s on a medium-weight Mech. There's ink spilled on this design elsewhere, so I won't go into detail here, but if you find the Apollo appealing you'll enjoy the Cobra as well- they're fairly similar in the same vein as the Trebuchet and a half dozen other designs out there.

Years ago a discussion on these forums occurred in which a poster tried to explain that mounting Clan LRM racks could double the throw weight of an Apollo- which is true, of course. My argument against this became the occasionally-quoted Apollo's Law, named for this design as a result- if it needs Clan tech (or other radical gear) added to a machine to make it good, it probably isn't worth the investment to add that tech in the first place. Sure, Clan LRM-15s or 20s will make for a better Mech- no kidding. But if you have a few Clan LRM racks laying around, would you put them on an otherwise-humdrum 55-ton machine like this, or save them for other, already-better Mechs? Essentially, would you make an 'eh' Mech good or a good Mech great? With the rule aside, Apollos aren't really great for modifications- they're slow, and don't have a lot to do in terms of modifications that don't run into weight problems- you don't have lightweight engine or structure to fall back on, so the only place to find that weight is in the missile racks, and as the 3T taught us those are best left alone in-general lest you lose the point of the machine to begin with.

But hey, what's the point if you can't tinker a bit? Develop your take on the Apollo and share a link to the design in the Fan Design area! Tell us stories of using Apollos! You know how this works, join the discussion below!
« Last Edit: 08 February 2019, 14:14:51 by JadeHellbringer »
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #1 on: 08 February 2019, 15:14:06 »
And then there's the weirdo.

Summoned, I appear! Bwahahahaaa!!!

I love the Apollo. Oddly enough, despite my affinity for strange units with rare equipment, the sheer elegance in the simplicity of the Apollo is what draws me to it. Almost no advanced tech, and all those basic components means it's cheap. I can put it in just about any force to give them support, and save enough BV that the rest of the unit can often field the really fun stuff. If the FWLM is a toolbox, the Apollo is the hammer, and League LRM toys means that every problem really can be a nail. I especially like putting one or two in larger forces(often paired with an actual Archer), to give me more points with which to get the League's magnificent heavies, or famous fast assaults.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #2 on: 08 February 2019, 15:20:46 »
It really does pair up with Archers nicely, in a 2:1 (or reverse) ratio combined with a bodyguard like a Hunchback. It's plenty fun and cheap, just very bland to boot- there's worse sins for a Mech to commit than being boring, of course (hello Goliath 3M), but it does mean that there's no particular thrill to running one- it does its job and goes home (maybe?), and if you don't remember by the time you pack the miniatures up that an Apollo was ever on the field then that's to be forgiven.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #3 on: 08 February 2019, 15:26:19 »
In the sandwich that is warfare, not everybody can be the cheese. If you don't have bread, it all falls apart.

(Unless you nuke it and use the gooey cheese to hold everything together. I may have just made a Regulus metaphor.)
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #4 on: 08 February 2019, 16:50:41 »
Its too bad it did not get any Jihad upgrades (did the factory end up with the Blakists for a bit?) using a LFE and MMLs.  You would think the mini-Archer was kept up by the League headed into the 60s but it seems to fade away.

I think the Apollo would be a merc's dream mech . . . solid fire support as is, and should be cheap to acquire but its a design made to be customized.  ERMLs, FF armor, electronics options, large missile bays . . . lots of options without changing the basic construction of the mech.

For the Apollo it comes down to . . . would you rather have a Archer, Yeoman or Apollo in the lance?  For me that is going to come down to logistics-  If its a company with Wolverines, Shadow Hawks, Griffins, Wraiths, Cronuses or later Quaisimodoes then the Apollo makes sense since its going to share parts with the other 55 tonners.  The Archer of course matches up with Guillotines, Hercules, later Carronades,   And for the Yeoman, it has the unfortunate logistical sharing with Quickdraws (though should provide a source when short), Ostrocs, Ostsol, Anvil, and later Anzu.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #5 on: 08 February 2019, 16:55:16 »
Compared to older medium-class fire-support designs like the Trebuchet or Dervish, the Apollo isn't really an improvement. It does offer greater endurance, but with lesser mobility, it is not really a replacement. The Apollo is better than the Whitworth... but then that thing's 15 tons lighter, so not sure it is quite comparable.
It does work well as a drop-in replacement for older Archers, cheaper too probably, on the account of its lighter weight and smaller engine.
Incidentally economics are quite likely the biggest reason for the Apollo's existence. It is cheap, and reasonably effective. And its quirks are helpful here (per BMM), Fast Reload not so much but Rugged makes it a good fire-support 'Mech for lesser units, or for harsher conditions.
On paper i'm not a fan of the Apollo but when i consider the logistical side of it, it starts making a lot of sense. Points for that.

Of the early variants, i figure that either the 1R and 2S are better options than the original 1M. The 1R's deep ammo bins can be equipped with specialty munitions, and the 2S is just better overall, since as noted the Apollo shouldn't be near enough enemies ever to utilize its SPLs. Pity there's no variant with ERMLs and no Artemis IV, perhaps with one freed ton used to add CASE for side torsos, five tons of ammo is quite plenty for LRM-15s.

The 3T is weird. It is like it is trying to be a Dervish but without the Dervish's speed. Might work as a sort-of bodyguard for other fire-support 'Mechs.

The ELRM variant is interesting. It uses Composite Structure in addition to Ferro-Fibrous and XL Engine, meaning it is very vulnerable to damage after the armor is gone, but with such massive range, it really shouldn't be taking any hits in the first place. A specialist unit certainly. Might also make for good anti-aircraft unit, though pity about lack of anti-air targeting systems (as the quirk). A fun variant, that retains the original style and feel yet is interesting and probably not bad either.

All in all, it ain't a flashy 'Mech but it is hard to go wrong with it. The Archer has served centuries effectively, and the Apollo's just a cheaper, smaller version of that. The Artemis system is a bit of waste, especially if one is going for indirect-fire, but fortunately the 1R variant exists to solve that.

(Amusingly, the Lyran's Cobra isn't really any better. With higher speed but weaker armor, it is very much like the Dervish or the Trebuchet, yet not really an improvement over those. And by using Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous, it is more difficult to manufacture, making it logistically slightly dubious option.)
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

God and Davion

  • excelencia Steiner
  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4719
  • Super Secret Capellan Operative
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #6 on: 08 February 2019, 17:43:49 »
  Thanks for the article!  It is a nice mech, very bland but 2LRM15 should not be ignored. It is a mech for bean counters. It can do 75% of the Archer LRM spam at less cost.

  Honestly, the Yeoman is quite better as a LRM boat and the Trebuchet is almost as good as a LRM boat, despite being more fragile. The Trebuchet is far more flexible and this puts the Apollo in a bad position. It is not a big surprise that it didn't survive the Yihad.
We are back again... but we never forget Albatross

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #7 on: 08 February 2019, 17:49:14 »
The Yeoman's so ugly it is unusable.

And what do you mean the Apollo didn't survive the Jihad? The existence of the newtech variant argues otherwise, and the Apollo is rather widely used post-Jihad.
EDIT Checking TRO:Prototypes, it seems to imply that the production line was rendered inoperative, along with 'Mech losing sales due to being "old fashioned". These lead to the line reopened and producing the new 4M variant, though given how widespread the Apollo is, i'd imagine they opened the line for the original as well, there's always budget-conscious buyers after all.


Interestingly, MUL gives availability of the APL-2S as Dracs and FWL Jihad and earlier, while post-Jihad it is CapCon and Dracs. Export variant? FWL sold all their examples elsewhere? Cappies recreated the variant by modifying their other Apollos post-Jihad?
« Last Edit: 08 February 2019, 17:53:02 by Empyrus »
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Sartris

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8745
  • Hear me now and believe me later
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #8 on: 08 February 2019, 18:11:15 »
The only Apollos produced after the jihad are of the 4M variety

A lot of the FWL 3055 staples are oop like the albatross (Irian mothballed) and wraith (paradise is dead)

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #9 on: 08 February 2019, 18:12:46 »
Do we know that for sure? Production info about various 'Mechs is often rather vague.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Deadborder

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6934
  • Technical Victory!
    • Elmer Studios Blog
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #10 on: 08 February 2019, 18:40:33 »
The only Apollos produced after the jihad are of the 4M variety

A lot of the FWL 3055 staples are oop like the albatross (Irian mothballed) and wraith (paradise is dead)

The Cappies bought out the Wraith's design and resumed production, as per FM3145
Author of BattleCorps stories Grand Theft Agro and Zero Signal



Whenever you use terms like 'fiat' or 'stupid pills', you render your argument invalid

How to Draw MegaMek Icons the Deadborder Way

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #11 on: 08 February 2019, 18:50:27 »
The Yeoman's so ugly it is unusable.

HERESY!  KILL THE HERETIC!

Which is just a League way of disagreeing . . .

With the LRM15s being IIRC the most inefficient launchers out there, I do wonder if giving it a LFE and just bumping to plain 20s would be better.  Have to check HMP when I get home, it would make it a pocket Archer for sure.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #12 on: 08 February 2019, 19:02:06 »
I'm sure it's possible for a mech to be more boring than the Apollo, but I'm not certain as to how.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #13 on: 08 February 2019, 20:20:58 »
Hellstar.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2637
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #14 on: 08 February 2019, 20:27:48 »
The problem with the Apollo is that there's no problems- which is to say there were no problems that it addresses. there's 'mechs from 3025 that fill its niche in either direction admirably and often give more bang for the buck, and generally more interesting choices to spluge for later on. the best it can say is it's a fairly cheap way to deliver 30 tubes of artemis LRMs, but, well....is artemis really vital enough to merit fielding this thing?

More importantly, why does it have taint-fins. this has bothered me for ages, what do they do.
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #15 on: 08 February 2019, 20:28:36 »
Hellstar.
Dunno, that might cause terror in opponents, and that ain't boring.

I'm sure the game has very bland and boring 'Mechs... but i can't recall them...
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1706
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #16 on: 08 February 2019, 21:36:12 »
Since I'm not really doing these anymore by popular demand
People demanded you to not be doing these anymore?  :o 

The Apollo's a great mech. I knew of its existence, then forgot, and now I can discover it anew. Not much to see, though.
Well, gotta have some bread and butter units.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1839
  • UNTIL IT IS DONE.
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #17 on: 08 February 2019, 22:14:18 »
Dunno, that might cause terror in opponents, and that ain't boring.

I'm sure the game has very bland and boring 'Mechs... but i can't recall them...
Effeciency is a brand of boring all its own.

That said, I'm generally more terrified when something like a Cygnus or Berserker is rushing me. even though 4 headcappers a turn sucks to fight, I'd still rather that then something that can core a medium with a melee hit or have me roll for 40 individual hit locations.
Berserker D4s are the Doom Slayer of Battletech; Change my mind.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6730
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #18 on: 08 February 2019, 23:46:02 »
I want to like the mech because it tries to be a mini-archer (the same legs/feet) but it's soooo boring. If your not a fan of LRMs (raises hand) it doesn't really do much for you.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #19 on: 09 February 2019, 00:33:25 »
I want to like the mech because it tries to be a mini-archer (the same legs/feet) but it's soooo boring. If your not a fan of LRMs (raises hand) it doesn't really do much for you.
Think of it this way, if you don't like LRMs but need a 'Mech with them, the Apollo is rather cheap, whether in C-bills or BV.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #20 on: 09 February 2019, 00:41:39 »
Hellstar.

As others have already pointed out, the Hellstar is quite boring to play, but not so boring to fight.  The Apollo is a snooze-fest regardless of which side of the battlefield it's on.

But hey, I'll give it points for this: it's a Marik design that didn't get a Light Gauss Rifle.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #21 on: 09 February 2019, 01:16:06 »
I'm genuinely confused. How on earth can anything that can carry that many different kinds of LRMs ever be boring?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10175
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #22 on: 09 February 2019, 03:05:33 »
I'm genuinely confused. How on earth can anything that can carry that many different kinds of LRMs ever be boring?

A hammer may be used to drive many different and even interesting kinds of nails, but that doesn't mean the hammer is interesting.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

SD501st

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Lead me, follow me or get out of my way!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #23 on: 09 February 2019, 07:11:20 »
ignore functions for all but the second picture in the thread are active
Well, besides being cheap and functional in it's role as a budget Archer, you can say one other thing about the Apollo... it looks quite nice!

Since I'm not really doing these anymore by popular demand
I'll echo UnLimiTeD's notion here... WHAT THE ACTUALL EFF?!
Give me the names of those heretics and I'll torture them to death with the blandness that is the Eagle!  >:D

Which brings me to...

I'm sure it's possible for a mech to be more boring than the Apollo, but I'm not certain as to how.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2019, 07:37:25 by SD501st »

marauder648

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6286
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #24 on: 09 February 2019, 08:41:52 »
Its a perfectly functional Marik Mech that don't mount a light gauss or ER large, so that means LRM's and deep ammo bins too!  Sure its not that interesting but its useful and meshes well with Marik forces who are renowned lovers of the LRM spam.  A great article too :) Amusing and insightful :D  And I almost forgot about the walking tangerine version of this things art.  Almost.. *weeps*
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #25 on: 09 February 2019, 11:51:19 »
ignore functions for all but the second picture in the thread are active
Well, besides being cheap and functional in it's role as a budget Archer, you can say one other thing about the Apollo... it looks quite nice!
I'll echo UnLimiTeD's notion here... WHAT THE ACTUALL EFF?!
Give me the names of those heretics and I'll torture them to death with the blandness that is the Eagle!  >:D

Which brings me to...


I'm sorry, but for a mech to be more boring than the Apollo it has to exist. :P

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

misterpants

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 657
  • Bringing you the beats and grooves of Xin Sheng
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #26 on: 09 February 2019, 12:51:17 »
The bean-counter in me would team an Apollo with a BJ-3 Blackjack as part of a shrunk-down heavy 'mech group substitute.
Avatar by Blackjack Jones

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #27 on: 09 February 2019, 14:37:41 »
Diet Archer and Diet Warhammer, eh?

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Crimson Dawn

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 391
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #28 on: 09 February 2019, 16:28:50 »
HERESY!  KILL THE HERETIC!

Which is just a League way of disagreeing . . .

With the LRM15s being IIRC the most inefficient launchers out there, I do wonder if giving it a LFE and just bumping to plain 20s would be better.  Have to check HMP when I get home, it would make it a pocket Archer for sure.

Huh I would have thought the LRM 10 was the most inefficient launcher. 

Funny enough on the boring angle it even looks somewhat like an archer but not quite as cool. 

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #29 on: 09 February 2019, 16:34:04 »
Huh I would have thought the LRM 10 was the most inefficient launcher. 

Funny enough on the boring angle it even looks somewhat like an archer but not quite as cool.

Pretty sure LRM-10 is indeed the most inefficient launcher, and using Art.IV with it doesn't help at all. One reason i'm really not fan of the weird laser/LRM-10 model of Apollo.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8186
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #30 on: 09 February 2019, 18:19:42 »
depends on how you define inefficient. LRM10's are inefficient in terms of weight vs damage. but the LRM15 is inefficient in terms of weight vs ammo capacity.


Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 603
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #31 on: 09 February 2019, 18:55:49 »
depends on how you define inefficient. LRM10's are inefficient in terms of weight vs damage. but the LRM15 is inefficient in terms of weight vs ammo capacity.

Surely it's 120 points of damage per ton either way?

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

Ruger

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3757
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #32 on: 09 February 2019, 19:16:37 »
Surely it's 120 points of damage per ton either way?

It is.

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Crimson Dawn

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 391
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #33 on: 10 February 2019, 00:06:51 »
The LRM 5 is better at weight but the LRM 15 is better with heat.  The LRM 10 is worse on weight and heat.  The LRM 20 has i think the best value for heat but is not good with weight.

SD501st

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Lead me, follow me or get out of my way!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #34 on: 10 February 2019, 10:10:30 »
The LRM 5 is better at weight but the LRM 15 is better with heat.  The LRM 10 is worse on weight and heat.  The LRM 20 has i think the best value for heat but is not good with weight.
And with size. The LRM 20 is the worst in terms of size vs. tube count, being the only launcher using 5 crits for a tube count of 20, where all other LRM launcher sizes would need 4 crits to have 20 tubes.

If all statistic factors that are different between the 4 LRM launcher sizes - weight, size, heat, damage - are taken into account, the LRM 15 is indeed the most efficient of the bunch. Next would be the LRM 5 since it shares the crit space and damage values of the LRM 15, but is a little better in damage for tonnage and a little worse in damage for heat.

In 3rd place we have the LRM 20, which is the most heat efficient and the only one even able to force a PSR on it's own, but the least efficient in terms of crit space. And on last place the LRM 10, which has the exact same damage/damage for tonnage values as the 20 and is less heat efficient, with the only advantage over the LRM 20 being that it is more crit space efficient. Compared to the LRM 5 and 15, the LRM 10 and 20 are also less weight/damage efficient.

Now, if you throw in an Artemis system, this changes quite a few things... suddenly the LRM 5 is probably the worst of the bunch, with the LRM 10 only a little better, because of the crit/tonnage requirement for the Artemis IV(and even more so for the Artemis V). Only the LRM 15 and 20 are actually worth using Artemis systems with, and even here the LRM 15 seems to be the most efficient overall.

This is all just my humble opinion of course. Humble but logical.  ;)
« Last Edit: 10 February 2019, 10:20:28 by SD501st »

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16661
  • Dang it!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #35 on: 10 February 2019, 11:41:07 »
Sorry to be late to the party.  Great seeing you post another article, JadeHellbringer, with your usual flash of insight.

I always pictured way FASA was originally bring these things out in for the first printing of TRO:3055 that Mech was intended to be teamed up with the Hercules.  It's long-range fire support, while Hercules handles the body guard and medium-short range engagements.  Maybe not as super teamed as Hammer & Anvil, but i thought they were in way partners by design.
 
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #36 on: 10 February 2019, 13:13:14 »
The Hercules is a heavy cavalry 'Mech (5/8 movement!), not really something i'd pair with the Apollo. The Herc and Trebuchet? Sure. Or the Herc, Anvil and Hammer? Yeah why not.

Not sure what FASA was thinking with the Apollo, but then again thinking about many many FASA 'Mechs, i suspect they weren't really thinking.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4436
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #37 on: 10 February 2019, 14:27:33 »
The fluff says it all. "Mini-Archer." From a In-Character perspective, it makes sense. If you can get Archer performance out of a design that's 15-20 tons lighter than the original, you're in theory saving money, and probably support costs as well (some of which will be eaten up by advanced tech costs, but the Apollo doesn't have much of that, just the SPL, AIV and DHS). This was also designed in an era when tech was advancing and the Clans were a major threat, and its sort of stands to reason that Medium Mechs can be produced faster than Heavy Mechs (or atleast seems so).

So you've got a design that can offer similar output to the Archer (LRM15+AIV compared to LRM20), can keep up with it,  costs less (about 2 million c-bills less), and can theoretically be produced faster, or atleast with less resources.

Its not that dumb of a idea from an IC point of view.

AlphaMirage

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 733
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #38 on: 10 February 2019, 15:11:40 »
Apollo and 2 Tempests with support from an Orion or Hunchback (depending on terrain) is my go to Marik lance.

Crimson Dawn

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 391
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #39 on: 10 February 2019, 16:44:13 »
The fluff says it all. "Mini-Archer." From a In-Character perspective, it makes sense. If you can get Archer performance out of a design that's 15-20 tons lighter than the original, you're in theory saving money, and probably support costs as well (some of which will be eaten up by advanced tech costs, but the Apollo doesn't have much of that, just the SPL, AIV and DHS). This was also designed in an era when tech was advancing and the Clans were a major threat, and its sort of stands to reason that Medium Mechs can be produced faster than Heavy Mechs (or atleast seems so).

So you've got a design that can offer similar output to the Archer (LRM15+AIV compared to LRM20), can keep up with it,  costs less (about 2 million c-bills less), and can theoretically be produced faster, or atleast with less resources.

Its not that dumb of a idea from an IC point of view.

And funny you could really do that using straight succession wars tech too.  Replace the small pulse lasers with mediums and then the artemis with either the additional ammo, extra medium lasers (bonus points for rear facing only due ot he archer), or my personal favorite jump jets (might as well get a maneuverability boost over the archer, use archer for throw weight and the appolo to get to places).

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #40 on: 10 February 2019, 18:28:00 »
And funny you could really do that using straight succession wars tech too.
This is arguably my major issue with the Apollo. That it is logistically simple is a big bonus and a reason i kind of like the unit. But barely enough is done with to justify using even Star League tech. Slap ferro-fibrous and CASE there and it feels more modern and tougher, while still being relatively simple.

Artemis IV and double heat sinks don't really add much to the design. Without those, it can fire both LRMs and run for two turns without incurring heat penalties, or walk for four turn, possibly sufficient in most cases. It loses a bit of firepower, but only in direct-fire mode, not counting that at short-medium range using medium lasers over SPLs would more than compensate the lost firepower, though at the cost of heat. Then again weight freed from Artemis could be used for a couple of single heat sinks...

But, it could be worse. It could be one of those weird less than ideal FWL 'Mechs, or Kuritan or early Davion heat sink screw-ups (think the Panther or Davion Cataphract).

And there's a degree of sensibility in the Apollo, despite using limited amounts of advanced tech or perhaps because of it. It is simple enough maintenance isn't a problem for less trained techs. Loss of Artemis to battle damage isn't a major issue and can be replaced with something else as a field modification if need arises, while functioning Artemis is reasonably beneficial. As advanced tech proliferates, double heat sinks become common and replacement is easy, they also can be replaced with single heat sinks if need arises in Dropship transport bay (class D maintenance refit), like if a more important 'Mech needs replacement DHS, and if not the 'Mech is effectively immune to high temperatures or external heat.
And i suppose the small pulse lasers make sense too, as they discourage the pilot from going into close combat with missile armed 'Mech on the account of their pitiful range. Yet if an enemy comes close, the pilot can just slap "fire pulse lasers button" without regard for careful aiming, useful for lesser skilled or panicked pilots perhaps, not that this discourages the enemy from closing in really.

Battle value-wise, about 1200 BV for some fire-support is pretty good.
For contrast, the Succession Wars era Archer is 1350 BV for not much more direct firepower, and Trebuchet is only slightly cheaper than at 1190 the Apollo in exchange for lower endurance but greater speed. And the post-Helm versions cost 1350 BV for the Trebuchet 7M that offers greater mobility and Narc but still weak endurance (now exacerbated by XL engine), while the 4M Archer costs 1700 BV for Artemis IV and some armor and CASE.
What other options there are? The Catapult is more expensive at about 1400 BV (and not too common in the FWL), and it takes quite a while before modernized non-Arrow IV Catapult appears (Catapult CPLT-C4C appears in '55 but is evidently Davion exclusive at that point until the Operation Guerrero and Cappies regaining the manufacturing plant). The Dervish (about 1150) trades away long-range firepower and armor for short range firepower and speed, and its modernization (1400) (also Davion exclusive) doesn't change this but becomes more expensive. The Whitworth (980) is smaller, less durable and less powerful, and its "modernization" (930) is truly awful.
While not designed with BV in mind, the Apollo looks pretty good in that department, if you don't need special capabilities.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Crimson Dawn

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 391
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #41 on: 10 February 2019, 19:11:07 »
If the designers were willing to play with the design to make cheaper LRM units you can a 3/5/3 with only 1/2 ton less armor but with 2 LRM20s with 4 tons of ammo and 2 medium lasers.

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #42 on: 10 February 2019, 19:46:07 »
I'd expect a medium 'Mech with 2xLRM-20s to use XL engine and possibly endo-steel (indeed that'd allow even adding Artemis), 3/5 movement is too slow for a medium, 4/6 is already pretty bad but acceptable if the Apollo is to be a lighter replacement for formations that usually use Archers.
Yes, jump jets compensate the weak mobility, but that'd force reliance on them, and affects accuracy negatively.

I also question the worth of cramming 2xLRM-20s into a medium. LRM-15 with Artemis IV has reasonably good chance of dealing as much damage as LRM-20 does, though admittedly indirect fire suffers. But you really don't want to do indirect fire after a jump either.

Considering battle value, using 3/5/3 movement with LRM-20s is not really a positive. Would cost about 100 BV more for little increase in true capability. If maneuverability is needed, then one might as well pick the existing Trebuchet 7M, despite its shortcomings.

I will admit that i'm biased against jumping though. I don't mind it as an option, but i prefer not have to rely on it.

Interestingly, considering this, i notice that there seems to be a niche that isn't really filled (between 3000-3067): a medium LRM fire-support 'Mech with mobility and "long" endurance.
There's the Cobra (5/8 with LRM-15s with two tons ammo each) though it lacks jump jets and armor. The aforementioned Dervish and Whitworth offer mobility but not so much endurance. The Davion Hellspawn is very similar to the Dervish. The Trebuchet lacks endurance as noted. The Huron Warrior has a variant that is similar to the Cobra but more durable (with stealth armor) though has no jump capability. Some others but they tend to lack firepower.
Of course, the requirements are a lot to ask from a medium design.

Of course, there's really no other 'Mech like the Apollo either, medium endurance-oriented missile fire support. In that sense it has secured a good niche for itself, no wonder the Lyrans were interested.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6730
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #43 on: 10 February 2019, 21:48:42 »
If the designers were willing to play with the design to make cheaper LRM units you can a 3/5/3 with only 1/2 ton less armor but with 2 LRM20s with 4 tons of ammo and 2 medium lasers.

If your only goal is a cheap mech, just slap a LRM on a Urbie.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #44 on: 10 February 2019, 22:24:04 »
Cheap isn't always the sole requirement, nor necessarily particularly useful, since there's usually a maximum capacity that can be transported, piloted, maintained or whatever else. Plus price is irrelevant if capabilities aren't good enough to make any use of the thing.
Slapping a LRM-20 to an Urbie may make for a cheap fire support unit but one that dies fast when attacked, and its mobility makes it useless in anywhere but cities or static defenses. No front-line commander is gonna want their unit equipped with those.

Cheap's good when you need something ASAP, if it also means it can be produced fast. Like emergency replacements. One reason the RetroMechs appeared during the Jihad.

In this sense the Apollo has balanced capability and cost pretty well, i think. Effective enough for even front-line if not perhaps first-class units, cheap and simple enough to suit militia units.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Starfury

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 67
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #45 on: 11 February 2019, 04:52:41 »
The Apollo is a good example of effective, simple, and low key Marik design.  The dual medium laser variant makes it a slower version of the Trebuchet, it has a comparatively low BV, is fairly inexpensive, and does the job it is supposed to. You could easily team it with all number of LRM support units in a fire lance, and it would work fine.     Tap in Longbows, Archers, Trebuchets, Centurions, Catapults, Shadow Hawks, Grifins (other then the hot mess that is the 5M) and so on, and you can rain missiles down all day.  And in the end, isn't that what being a Marik player is all about?

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3865
    • Tower of Jade
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #46 on: 11 February 2019, 09:22:29 »
Maybe we're missing something important. The FWL didn't face the Clans when this was introduced, and they weren't actively fighting the Lyrans or Capellans. I look at this thing and think this would be a great unit for planetary militias. It's not fast? OK. It's placed around strongholds and choke points to drop LRMs on advancing forces. It's not using recovered Star League tech? OK. It's cheap so it won't break your planet's defense budget. Lack of SLDF tech also means that it's going to be easy to repair and maintain, even for the militia.

"But mbear, there is SLDF tech! Look at the Artemis!"

You're right. Look at the Artemis. It can be removed from the 'Mech and replaced by armor, ammo, or a Medium Laser, and at little cost to the Apollo's effectiveness on the field. It's one of the few pieces of SLDF tech that can make that claim. (Swapping out an XL engine or Endo Steel skeleton is a major undertaking; Removing the Artemis is a matter of unbolting a few fittings, right?)

Someone pointed out that it could easily be made with Succession Wars technology. Maybe it was, originally. Intended to be a replacement for or supplement to the Trebuchet or Archer, and then Artemis and Pulse lasers became available. So the designers slapped them on the chassis. Voila, you have a "new" 'Mech that was ready for production using existing infrastructure.

That said, it's absolutely a slower non-jumping Dervish. So I'll name it...Norm. Yes. That's a nice bland name for a nice bland 'Mech that just does its job and goes home.

Darkwing

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 52
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #47 on: 11 February 2019, 14:05:02 »
Now I have pictures of an Apollo walking into a bar and everyone yelling NORM! It's quite the crossover. Hmmm, what kinda mech would Cliff be? I'm thinking a Jager Mech... always butting in but never really contributing....

I will echo that I am disappointed that a MML variant never showed up. A Pair of MML 9's and some FF armor and you have a very versatile unit for a militia group.

I also wonder if this wasn't a unit created almost solely for export. Given the time frame, they were selling to the AFFS and DCMS who were raining cash on the FWL just to keep the Clans at bay. Cheap, easy to maintain, and quick to produce, these could be mass marketed to the front to replace losses and we know at the time the quartermasters were not being picky. The sale pitch almost writes itself. "Hey look, it's like an archer! The Artemis gives it the same hit rate while being lighter and cheaper. Buy a lance and not only get the same effectiveness, but your tech team will thank you to!"

Add to that, that if I am selling something that may one day be eventually turned back on me, I am not selling you all the whistles and bells.     
''Do not judge yourself by the friends you have, but by the enemies you make.'' - Jerome Blake

Sartris

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8745
  • Hear me now and believe me later
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #48 on: 11 February 2019, 14:13:24 »
the export angle probably has some legs. on the MUL the -1M damn near qualifies as IS General. iirc the Falcon Hawk was similar in that way.

was there a licencing agreement with the dracs? all the other variants are FWL-DC exclusives

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #49 on: 11 February 2019, 14:21:54 »
The fluff for the Cobra specifically says the AFFC and LAAF were banned from purchasing the Apollo (thus the Cobra's existence to begin with). Why THIS particular Mech was banned from export but other Mechs from the era like the Tempest, Albatross, and Hammer didn't have such a restriction is beyond me, but Apollos didn't end up going to either of those powers other than (presumably) the occasional salvaged example. Whether mercenary units affiliated with either FedCom half were similarly banned or not is anyone's guess.

It's an odd choice, even if their rationale makes sense following Joshua's death and the subterfuge attempt that followed. I wouldn't want to help someone who had done that to me either- you may not have KILLED my son directly, but the attempt at covering his passing up (comically inept as it was) would infuriate me as well into letting Victor and his nation deal with the Clans without my input of advanced weaponry. But why THIS particular design, with its total lack of any special capabilities and obvious export-friendly setup, was banned from sale is a very perplexing question.

(If you've been buying from Liao, by the way, the 1M is a fantastic Thunder-Augmented platform thanks to those deep ammo bins.)
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #50 on: 11 February 2019, 14:30:12 »
Perhaps the Tempest etc. weren't in real demand by the FedCom, but a simple cheap fire-support platform like the Apollo was?
Seems likely to me that the FedCom would be utilizing their own designs over FWL designs in most cases, but they lacked a Apollo-like design prior the Cobra (as i note, the Dervish and Hellspawn have lower missile firepower for example).

EDIT Uh, i assume the export restriction came into force after the FWL had already sold Apollos to the FedCom? MUL Shows it as available to Lyrans and FedSuns.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #51 on: 11 February 2019, 14:41:45 »
Might be a bigger picture thing. Thomas had to respond to the whole Joshua thing, but his realm's exports of tech to the FedCom was a big part of the  antispinward half the of the Inner Sphere's defense against the Clans. For all he knew, those exports were helping keep the Wolves and Jade Falcons on the Lyran border, as opposed to his own. So he restricts some mechs to punish the FedCom for the subterfuge, but keeps other exports going in order to maintain the strength of the Clan border.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16661
  • Dang it!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #52 on: 11 February 2019, 15:20:30 »
I'm disappointed there no MRM version of the Apollo armed with Apollo FCS.  ;)
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #53 on: 11 February 2019, 15:26:22 »
I suppose it's also possible that as the FCCW got going the restrictions were relaxed and Apollos began flowing again. Interesting that a cheap, simple fire support unit though wasn't given a lot of new tricks during/after the Jihad, and seems to be out of production from what I can tell. You'd think with all the assorted factions fighting in the FWL and next door in the Republic that this would sell to armies like crazy (particularly judging from the apparently-brisk sales of the Arbalest!).
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 20608
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #54 on: 11 February 2019, 15:27:21 »
The fluff says it all. "Mini-Archer."

Given my druthers, I'd rather take a Blackjack Omni A model. That's a Mini-Archer to me. Okay, 200XL vs 220 SFE.

Comments made above regarding militia use probably make a lot of in-universe sense.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Darkwing

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 52
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #55 on: 11 February 2019, 16:52:39 »
You also have to consider ramp up time. It was about 3052 that the Outreach Accords happened and the FWL agreed to sell to the FC. If they went straight home and started designing, it makes sense that the Apollo would be one of the first units off the drawing board to fill damages TOE's and keep the Steiner's and the Kuritan's in the game. Remember that Operation GUERRERO wasn't until the fall of 3057. And no one really saw that coming. It makes sense that the FC would get hooked on it, than "the incident" happened, and the Marik's would not sell to Victor, nor to their historic adversaries the new LA...who seemed to like it enough to attempt their own.
''Do not judge yourself by the friends you have, but by the enemies you make.'' - Jerome Blake

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #56 on: 11 February 2019, 17:29:06 »
The fluff for the Cobra specifically says the AFFC and LAAF were banned from purchasing the Apollo (thus the Cobra's existence to begin with). Why THIS particular Mech was banned from export but other Mechs from the era like the Tempest, Albatross, and Hammer didn't have such a restriction is beyond me, but Apollos didn't end up going to either of those powers other than (presumably) the occasional salvaged example. Whether mercenary units affiliated with either FedCom half were similarly banned or not is anyone's guess.

The FWL wasn't exporting the Tempest or Albatross in the first place.  Both were intended for domestic use only and the Albatross in particular was flagged for elite units like the Knights of the Inner Sphere.  Thomas could hardly stop the export of mechs he wasn't exporting to begin with.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3300
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #57 on: 12 February 2019, 08:39:33 »
Good writeup.

If you only need two walking LRM15s in the backfield, and really how often do you need anything else, the Apollo is it (barring the 3). It's a simplicity of design and purpose which can be very effective if used wisely.

I also like how there's a clear theme of improvements with the variants. I would have liked an Apollo 4 of some kind with an X/LFE and more missiles.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #58 on: 12 February 2019, 10:27:19 »
Exactly that. You want fancy tricks and speed, take a Trebuchet. You want heavy backup guns and armor, spring for a Crusader or Archer. If all you need is a solid platform to deliver ze missiles, bring an Apollo. Or three. If all you need is a solid missile platform and you've got oodles of cash, pester the Diamond Sharks for a Kraken 3.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #59 on: 12 February 2019, 11:31:31 »
If all you need is a solid missile platform and you've got oodles of cash, pester the Diamond Sharks for a Kraken 3.

Yes, the 'blot out the sun' approach.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #60 on: 12 February 2019, 12:14:53 »
"Look, SOMEONE'S gotta fire off all this ammo, I mean we can't just leave it sitting here. What if some kid finds it?"
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #61 on: 12 February 2019, 12:28:31 »
Reminds me of one of my dad's Navy stories. The crew had to empty their ship's magazines prior to decommissioning, and their choices were to do it in port by hand, or do it at sea, by gun. You can guess which they chose.  :)
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #62 on: 12 February 2019, 12:55:02 »
Its not just the physical labor, its the fricking paperwork handing it all back to supply- and them inspecting it for any reason not to take it back.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

MarauderD

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 859
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #63 on: 12 February 2019, 14:25:58 »
Given my druthers, I'd rather take a Blackjack Omni A model. That's a Mini-Archer to me. Okay, 200XL vs 220 SFE.

Comments made above regarding militia use probably make a lot of in-universe sense.

W.

Beaten to the punch by Worktroll.  I was thinking Blackjack Omni A or a Dervish (the MML version is especially nice, but for me, nearly any Dervish will do).  The FWLM had Trebs already, Apollo just seems like refilling a niche for fun.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #64 on: 12 February 2019, 14:56:57 »
IIRC, the BJ-O was not that widely spread when it came out in '58 but the Apollo came out in TRO3055 . . . and that was the book that covered the IS response to the Clans.

Forget that it was probably cheaper and easier to produce to start replacing losses, look where it fits in your strategic picture as a import.  Its going to your secondline forces.  If I was the AFFC in '51-'55 (it came out in '54) then I have been shuffling the refit kits, heavy mechs and better medium mechs into the Lyran zone to face the Clans.  Since the Clans have a range advantage, that definitely means the Archers & Crusaders I can move and likely the JagerMech 6-A even if I am cringing about its thinner armor.  So now I have a bunch of 4/6 companies on the CapCon, Periphery and probably the Drac borders that are missing slower missile fire support.  I certainly were not replacing them with Dervishes since with the classic trio its a fire support mech that can match the speed of heavier Clan forces.  And the AFFC has a lot of 4/6 heavy and medium lances that would have been picked over to bolster the Clan front- all those Enforcers, old Centurions, Jagermechs, Zeus, and other 3025 designs.  My new built stuff from former FS factories up to '55 besides the Watchman is being shipped to the OZ border. Lots of new build stuff (from War Dogs to Victor 9Ds) would need some fire support if a Archer/Crusader was not available as the AFFC tries to rebuild the wrecked regiments and later change over outdated equipment in the FS half (you know what ended up in warehouses . . . ).

Also look at the factory it is coming out of . . . Calloway IV which is a half dozen jumps away from the Sarna March means that its going to be easy to pull the before mentioned Archers, Crusaders and Jagermechs out of the SMM, Republican Guard and FC Regular units.  They can be moved to the OZ, perhaps even stopping on Hesperus to undergo a refit using the kits.  And you can route the smaller replacement into the Capellan March to give a slight upgrade (DHS should let it sustain the fire a Archer 2R spits out) to bring Hasek-Davion's March units back to full strength.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #65 on: 20 February 2019, 15:15:07 »
Something just occurred to me:

Three Apollo-1Ms and one Grand Titan-10M. You end up with a lance with seven LRM-15s, solid close-in defenses, and enough Small Pulse Lasers to throw a block party rave and/or commit a war crime. Averages out to a heavy lance with a total BV of 5438. By comparison, a lance of four Archer-4Ms costs 6820 BV.

Seems decent for what you pay?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #66 on: 20 February 2019, 21:15:10 »
Now THAT is a bodyguard I didn't think of, but... movement profiles line up, good long range and short range punch... I'm intrigued.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #67 on: 20 February 2019, 21:39:15 »
The Grand Titan has always struck me as good for the escort role...but it's sooo expensive. But Apollos are dirt cheap, and need a bodyguard, so...there you go!
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #68 on: 20 February 2019, 22:04:32 »
I suppose that that is a thing you can do with a Grand Titan.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #69 on: 20 February 2019, 22:05:45 »
Lol . . . I will see your crazy and take it to 11 . . .

3 JagerMech 6-S and that Grand Titan for 4520 . . . for dakka annoyance. 
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Diamondshark

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1263
  • Bringing back the enlightenment to the Star League
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #70 on: 05 May 2019, 10:17:55 »
I love the -1R Apollo, and buy one up whenever I have access to one in campaigns. Keep half the ammo as conventional for standard fire support, and then put Thunder LRMs in the rest of the bins--you now have the ability to bring about area control on a radical level unlike much anything else, especially while maintaining combat effectiveness at the same time.
"We are the Clans, the Star League incarnate.
None can stand against us and survive."

-- The Remembrance, Passage 272, Verse 8, Lines 18-19

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #71 on: 05 May 2019, 16:30:58 »
Should the Apollo have been used as a testbed for the new LRM types?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1839
  • UNTIL IT IS DONE.
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #72 on: 05 May 2019, 19:18:27 »
Should the Apollo have been used as a testbed for the new LRM types?
As in, NLRMs and ELRMs? Or alternative ammos? I'm guessing the former.
Berserker D4s are the Doom Slayer of Battletech; Change my mind.

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3865
    • Tower of Jade
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #73 on: 06 May 2019, 09:07:23 »
Should the Apollo have been used as a testbed for the new LRM types?

It was. In TRO:Prototypes.


"You wanna get nuts? Let's get nuts!"
And then there's the weirdo. The 4M model comes from the Prototypes TRO, and as such it's got all sorts of changes. The engine becomes an XL at last, but the speed remains 4/6. Ferro-fibrous armor appears, giving slightly less protection as before but with solid weight savings- what could the engineers be up to here? A single ER medium laser in the head replaces the original backup lasers, and... the payoff for all the weight savings, a pair of Extended LRM-15s each fed by a two-ton ammo bin. Wow. I guess it depends on how much you love the ELRM, whether you're a fan of this ride or not- the drawbacks are enormous, but the range is artillery-levels of ridiculous. Since I'm not a huge fan of them, this didn't do much for me, but your experiences may differ wildly.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32970
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #74 on: 06 May 2019, 09:37:26 »
I rather like the ELRM Apollo. It's the only ELRM unit I can think of that's cheap enough that you don't feel pressured to put it in your battle line, but also has enough throw weight to have a real effect on a battle. The trick to it(and most ELRM units) is to treat it like an artillery piece - keep it far back enough to be immune to casual attacks, and give it an escort and a spotter.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #75 on: 06 May 2019, 10:19:13 »
Are you saying build it more like a artillery lance/battery?

Augmented Lance
3 ELRM Apollo
med bodyguard mech
fast troop VTOL & spotter BA

Battery
2 Lances of ELRM Apollos
Support Lance- 2 fast troop VTOLs, 2 spotter BA . . . Purifiers?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #76 on: 06 May 2019, 11:00:16 »
ERLM Apollos with Centaur BA, how's that for "micro artillery"? The Centaurs have MagClamps so they can be carried by the Apollos though that might be a bit slow going. Now, the factions don't exactly line up, but figure the Republic black ops teams can get some Centaurs.
For extra hilarity, run this as Capellan Augmented Lance: 2x Apollos, 2x Centaurs, 2x some BattleMech with faster speed than Apollos so that they can carry the Centaurs while acting as bodyguards...

EDIT Duh, didn't realize Colt Ward was thinking on similar if not identical lines.

EDIT2 I'm assuming additional units that work as spotters, but are not organic parts of this Augmented Lance.
« Last Edit: 06 May 2019, 11:27:10 by Empyrus »
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

JadeHellbringer

  • Твоя мать была хомяком ...
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19346
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #77 on: 07 May 2019, 16:08:00 »
Are you saying build it more like a artillery lance/battery?

Augmented Lance
3 ELRM Apollo
med bodyguard mech
fast troop VTOL & spotter BA

Battery
2 Lances of ELRM Apollos
Support Lance- 2 fast troop VTOLs, 2 spotter BA . . . Purifiers?

For your first option, I'd say three ELRM Apollos and something with some AA power, honestly. These should be staying back a good ways from the front lines, so if they get attacked it's going to be by fast and light units for the most part- that isn't FUN, but can be dealt with. AA though is a big problem for rear-area units, so something with an LBX is a good idea here. It's hard to beat a Hercules for the job- I admit to being biased in that direction for most Marik roles (I adore that Mech), but it fills both jobs- LBX to tell aircraft to back off, some solid close-range firepower (and a PPC to boot!) for the odd Spider or Harasser that comes snooping around, and mobile enough to rapidly redeploy to where that trouble comes from.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Moonsword

  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14499
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #78 on: 08 May 2019, 09:30:00 »
ER PPCs aren't terrible for AA, they're just not as good as LB-Xs.  Long range bands mean it's not that inaccurate.  Better yet, a 10 point hit can threshold most fighters from all angles and if you hit the right widget inside the fighter that way, you can make their PSR a lot worse or just cause them to careen out of the sky.  A lot of VTOLs won't enjoy having ten points ripped off a given location, either.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #79 on: 08 May 2019, 10:35:54 »
I am going to have to try the ELRM company on a 96x96 hex MM double blind map- against some Wolves.  I would expect double blind to help the ELRM mechs to keep their distance longer but that 4/6 speed would give them some problems in the 'shoot n scoot' department.  I just have a feeling once they get spotted by a Wolf force, that speed difference is going to lead to them getting sliced up . . . get in short range and a single ERML is not going to cut it against fast movers.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16438
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #80 on: 08 May 2019, 11:04:10 »
No, if they don't have a good screening force, they're going to be toast.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16520
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #81 on: 08 May 2019, 11:16:20 »
I was wondering if the system would be good for general harassment or using what current doctrine calls for SP Artillery a 'raid' for a target of opportunity.  We practice this bit where they come over the radio net and order a platoon to split off from the convoy's route march to go fire up a target that was 'discovered' unexpectedly.  They call it a raid, but its also known in artillery as a 'hip shoot' I think twisting up the phrase 'shooting from the hip' to give it a spur of the moment connotation.  The tactical reason AFAIK is that your scouts or even forward maneuver elements stumble across a good target- or its a momentary opening, like a armored column changes course/speed to go through a chokepoint that was not expected.  So when they split off from the raid they are not under the same protection as the convoy or even proper/best AA umbrella . . . which is not quite the same as a mech force off on their own.

I guess I was thinking of a ELRM skirmisher team, which would help the League against the Wolf forces . . . get something fast out there with a spotter- infantry LP/OP hidden on a hill for the MLR would be best IMO.  Dump the ammo bin trying to ding up priority targets to soften the Wolf forces up before they run into the Marik lines.  Then the hypothetical unit sits behind the defensive lines to offer direct or indirect fire support.  But IMO even with sprinting rules in effect, 4/6 is too slow in any sort of terrain to play skirmisher against a Wolf Clan (who thinks 5/8 is a standard speed) force.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Ulquiorra9000

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: MotW: Apollo
« Reply #82 on: 22 June 2019, 14:10:14 »
I find the Apollo to be a decent fire support unit for smaller, casual games with a few of my friends. Artemis IV doesn't seem very popular around here, but I don't mind it, since it often saves bad rolls, such as a 4 becoming a 6 so I can get three more missiles to hit a target. And maybe I'm a bit biased, but I have an attractive forest/dirt camo model that I got from a secondary seller :)

https://www.deviantart.com/ulquiorra9000/art/Apollo-800585084
« Last Edit: 22 June 2019, 14:13:52 by Ulquiorra9000 »

 

Register