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Author Topic: Satellites Discussion  (Read 3002 times)

Daryk

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #30 on: 15 February 2019, 18:43:35 »
It would only take one hurricane to hit that a population wasn't prepared for to convince a planetary government of any size to come up with the pittance required for a weather satellite.  Boilerman has it right that satellites are ridiculously cheap, even in the "Mad Max" part of the 31st century.

SteelRaven

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #31 on: 15 February 2019, 23:57:37 »
Mechs like the Atlas have satellite communication in the fluff text, even a episode of the old cartoon talked about time delay due to satellite relay. Thinks it fair to say that satellites are common enough in a age of interstellar travel.   
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RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #32 on: 16 February 2019, 05:00:54 »
A small craft can easily seed a simple communication net, sats are cheap and SC are quite common.

Sure they can but they're not that common. Actually according to TechManual most of Small Craft's components are as common as or less common that ASF so they're not quite common. They're actually less common.


The BARCAP is already escorting the dropship in, so that bay is clear.  It takes a few minutes at most (rules in TO?  SO?) to take something from cargo and load it into a ASF cubicle.  Its done on the way in, and if you are worried about your DS doing some orbital maneuvering- like adjusting the vector to change prospective DZ- then you have other problems.  Cost-benefit . . . if the orbital defenses are bad enough you are not able to loiter, then should you really be sending the troop transports in yet?

ASF can carry bombs and rockets externally, and based on some novel fluff I would swear a TAG pod.  I think they can also carry sensor dispensers?  They are not taking them through atmo if they are going to ferry it into the proper orbit.

Strategic Operations pages 41-44. The base modifier for moving the cargo is vehicle Mass/60 per minuet. Then you have to ready the unit. Time starts at 15 minuets. It can get down to 4 minuets if you have 2 dedicated teams of techs for the bay. If you don't have aerospace superiority that's a problem. The Grey Death lost one of their fighters getting to Verthandi. It'd have been worse if they had to deal with satellite as well. Plus why keep your troops in orbit so reinforcements can arrive? Get them in and get them out.

TAG can be carried externally. Not Sensor Dispensers though and I don't think they work in space. Although it'd make sense if they could be carried and deployed. There's actually a lot that is carried on hardpoints that isn't available in BT. And ASF wouldn't have to ferry them into space to use Recon Cameras. They're used at Low Altitude. Imagers though can be used higher up but they can't be carried externally.



It would only take one hurricane to hit that a population wasn't prepared for to convince a planetary government of any size to come up with the pittance required for a weather satellite.  Boilerman has it right that satellites are ridiculously cheap, even in the "Mad Max" part of the 31st century.

Making them is cheap. Getting them into orbit is what costs.  And why spend all that money when a good doplar radar unit would work?

Mechs like the Atlas have satellite communication in the fluff text, even a episode of the old cartoon talked about time delay due to satellite relay. Thinks it fair to say that satellites are common enough in a age of interstellar travel.   

Just because the Atlas has a satellite uplink doesn't make satellites common. Again some planets are going to have lots of satellites others not so many if at all. Some planets just don't have the population to warrant satellites.

HMS_Swiftsure

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #33 on: 16 February 2019, 05:51:47 »
Comm sats like the D40 and Sneaksat are so stupidly cheap and easy to deliver into orbit via small craft that it'd be weird not to have well-developed communication arrays around planets.  Even in time of war, the Sneaksat seems like it'd be relatively survivable.

Surveillance sats, on the other hand...  From what little we know from TR:VA, they're much larger, probably much more expensive, and probably much easier targets.  Worse, getting them into orbit is probably a much more complex affair as they seem too large to lift up with a small craft or fighter.  Weather sats are geosynchronous in nature, and are a bit too far out to be highly useful for military purpose, so I could see those surviving.  But the big 30+ ton low orbit spy sats?  I could see those constellations falling out of vogue as a standard.

Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #34 on: 16 February 2019, 05:57:44 »
Sure they can but they're not that common. Actually according to TechManual most of Small Craft's components are as common as or less common that ASF so they're not quite common. They're actually less common.
You are reading that table wrong, just look in the engine section and then you see that SC/DS engines are equal or more common then ASFs.

Take into account that all jumpships have small craft and all the worlds on the IS map get some visitations by jumpships, also civilian satellites can last for decades if in a natural orbit. This all mean that the needed workforce to put any civilian satellites in orbit is available. And any military forces will need their own Small Craft anyway.   
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R.Tempest

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #35 on: 16 February 2019, 16:08:18 »
 Would it be more economical to release a bunch of short term jamming satellites? Have them blanket the planet with electronic noise for a few days while you conduct your raid, then they burn out as you're leaving.

RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #36 on: 17 February 2019, 07:56:26 »
You are reading that table wrong, just look in the engine section and then you see that SC/DS engines are equal or more common then ASFs.

Take into account that all jumpships have small craft and all the worlds on the IS map get some visitations by jumpships, also civilian satellites can last for decades if in a natural orbit. This all mean that the needed workforce to put any civilian satellites in orbit is available. And any military forces will need their own Small Craft anyway.

I said that they were as common or less than. So I read it right.

Where does it say that all jumpships come with small craft? I have never, ever read that. Some planets also have to wait a while between visits from jumpships. It doesn't mean that the planets have small craft of their own. All satellites last in orbit only until something comes along to destroy them. And military forces need ASF and Warships too but we know that doesn't happen. Why insist that something as common as rare aerospace fighters are so common as to be found everywhere? Not every planet has ASF. Why should they have SC? And if SC are on every JS, an already rare unit is being thinned out even more.



Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #37 on: 17 February 2019, 09:13:50 »
I said that they were as common or less than. So I read it right.
Wrong, the table shows that SC are as common or more common then ASF.
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Daryk

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #38 on: 17 February 2019, 09:31:40 »
For the sake of clarity, we're talking about the table on page 283 of Tech Manual, right?

In that table, the middle code in the availability column is for the Succession Wars.  For both Aerospace Fighters and Small Craft, the hardest thing to come by in that era is the engine, which is "E" for both.  Per the key on page 287, that translates to "Very Rare".  By the clan invasion, Small Craft engines are down to "C" (Uncommon) while Aerospace Fighter engines are at "D" (Rare).

RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #39 on: 17 February 2019, 17:56:22 »
Thank you, Daryk.

It isn't until the Clan Invasion that SC become more common than ASF and they're still not common enough to be on every jumpship and every planet. Saying so is like saying there's enough dropships and jumpships for every merc and house unit.



Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #40 on: 17 February 2019, 18:35:56 »
It isn't until the Clan Invasion that SC become more common than ASF and they're still not common enough to be on every jumpship and every planet.
If SC are as common as ASF, then there are enough to fill every SC bay on all JumpShips and have a lot remaining to divide among the various planets. 
Also as I have stated, it only requires one SC to do the work, and most planets don't get attacked regularly so even one visit every few decades will be enough.
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RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #41 on: 18 February 2019, 04:58:52 »
If that were true, there's enough ASF for every planet dropship and jumpship to have a minimum of a squadron of ASF to defend themselves with. Planets also wouldn't go months without seening a Jumpship. Every unit would have integral aerospace transport and Warship fleets would just be a jump away. Amaris would also be a saint for how he helped keep the Star League together which is still going strong 500+ years after its founding. ::)




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« Last Edit: 18 February 2019, 11:10:58 by RifleMech »

Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #42 on: 18 February 2019, 12:49:26 »
[How many Small Craft are there?]

The table has confirmed that Small Craft are equally common (or depending on the era, more common) then ASFs. So one option for calculating the number of SC, is though ASF. The most the ratio between House ASF and 'Mechs is about 1 to 3 (as indicated by both common DS designs and TO&Es. Combine this with the estimation of about 55k mechs in service (around 3025) in the Inner Sphere:    http://skiltao.blogspot.com/2016/06/fifty-five-thousand.html

Then we would have about 18k worth of ASF in 3025. Most of these will be assigned to DropShips or as part of larger military formations. While an equal (or slightly more) quantity of Small Craft will be spread out over various jumpships (2000+), stations (?), and planets (2000+). We don't notice this quantity because a lot of Small Craft are in civilian hands, and thus we don't encounter them in our military stories.


[How many Small Craft are needed?]

The most common JumpShips (Merchant & Invader) have each 2 Small Craft bays, with both an economic and a safety incentive to fully use them. And considering these don't see combat often then we can assume that their SC bays are in use.

And frankly even 1k of Small Craft will be more then enough to maintain the satellite networks, hostile/important systems can have multiple SC, while other systems either have one, or share a SC that hitchhikes on a JS route.
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RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #43 on: 19 February 2019, 06:00:20 »
Jumpships aren't plentiful enough to be everywhere. Some planets only see jumpships on a certain schedule. Others rarely.  Also some planets are going to have more small craft than others. Capitols, military bases and factories are going to have far more small craft than an agricultural planet or some planet way out on the periphery. Some aren't going to have any at all.

Also we have planets that can be conquered by a lance of mechs. But why where they allowed to land if Small Craft could have been launched against them? Maybe they're not enough to shoot down a dropship but they can bomb the heck out of the mechs and grounded dropship. A single small craft can carry a whole lot of bombs. Yet it never happens. Planets continue to suffer attacks from pirates and raiders. Not only that but if not every planet has mechs to defend it, with there being 55k of them, how can there be small craft for everyone with only 18k?

Kidd

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #44 on: 19 February 2019, 08:06:38 »
Jumpships aren't plentiful enough...
...
Also we have planets that can be conquered by a lance of mechs. But why where they allowed to land if Small Craft could have been launched against them? Maybe they're not enough to shoot down a dropship but they can bomb the heck out of the mechs and grounded dropship. A single small craft can carry a whole lot of bombs. Yet it never happens. Planets continue to suffer attacks from pirates and raiders. Not only that but if not every planet has mechs to defend it, with there being 55k of them, how can there be small craft for everyone with only 18k?
Jumpship counts have since been retconned, FYI.

The "1 lance raids a planet" scenario is also rare. Small craft don't bomb Mechs because it's extremely risky for the SC. Not every planet has Mechs to defend it because not every planet is militarily important, however Small Craft perform mainly non-military functions.

Which simply goes to show that the issues of rarity and commonality in BT are hard to define. However we can guess that all planets but the most backward backwoods must have at least some kind of space-going craft, and it could theoretically be used to make a recon flyby.

However, to do that risks pitting that SC against the raiders who obviously have spacecraft of some kind of their own, or else they wouldn't BE here. A world which doesn't have any ASFs and only a handful of SCs is highly unlikely to have pilots who would run such a suicidal mission. It's like asking the local cropduster to go spy on an invasion force.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #45 on: 19 February 2019, 18:35:58 »
It's like asking the local cropduster to go spy on an invasion force.
Hey I once with a friend designed and fluffed a "cropduster" support plan, that could with the right hardware be converted into a lowtech scout and ground attack plane.   They sold well to backwater planets who could use the dual role crafts. 

As long as the pirate in question have no more aerospace assets then Dropship, 1 even Sabre fighter can ruin a whole wings day
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Daryk

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #46 on: 19 February 2019, 18:40:44 »
In one campaign game I was in, the Capellans used local crop dusters to gas a city.  Fortunately, my character was aboard his Small Craft at the time.

RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #47 on: 19 February 2019, 19:47:47 »
Jumpship counts have since been retconned, FYI.

The "1 lance raids a planet" scenario is also rare. Small craft don't bomb Mechs because it's extremely risky for the SC. Not every planet has Mechs to defend it because not every planet is militarily important, however Small Craft perform mainly non-military functions.

Which simply goes to show that the issues of rarity and commonality in BT are hard to define. However we can guess that all planets but the most backward backwoods must have at least some kind of space-going craft, and it could theoretically be used to make a recon flyby.

However, to do that risks pitting that SC against the raiders who obviously have spacecraft of some kind of their own, or else they wouldn't BE here. A world which doesn't have any ASFs and only a handful of SCs is highly unlikely to have pilots who would run such a suicidal mission. It's like asking the local cropduster to go spy on an invasion force.

That doesn't mean that there's one at every planet. If there were there wouldn't be any "lost" planets.

Yet it does happen. It's just as risky for ASF and CF, which should be in plentiful supply to keep all those pirates and raiders from landing. There also wouldn't be any need to hire Mercs to defend against pirates. The functions of the SC depend entirely upon their design. Some are made purely for military purposes but even civilian ones can be
re-purposed.

Why must all planets have rare aerospace craft but far more plentiful mechs are completely absent? And why can only space-going craft make a recon flight? You can do that in a balloon.

If the risks were so great, why would anyone attack a planet to begin with? And military pilots who refuse to fight cease to be pilots. They become prisoners. Besides, they'd be escorted by the squadron of ASFs on the planet. And if the SC never take off, why wouldn't the pirates steal them too? And aircraft far more vulnerable than crop dusters have been used to spy on invasion forces.



Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #48 on: 19 February 2019, 20:20:56 »
Jumpships aren't plentiful enough to be everywhere. Some planets only see jumpships on a certain schedule. Others rarely.  Also some planets are going to have more small craft than others. Capitols, military bases and factories are going to have far more small craft than an agricultural planet or some planet way out on the periphery. Some aren't going to have any at all.
So what? Reread my posts, that has already been taken into account.

Quote
Also we have planets that can be conquered by a lance of mechs. But why where they allowed to land if Small Craft could have been launched against them? Maybe they're not enough to shoot down a dropship but they can bomb the heck out of the mechs and grounded dropship. A single small craft can carry a whole lot of bombs. Yet it never happens.
Most SC are civilian in nature, they aren't designed to pick a fight. If you want to bomb, then use CF, those are a lot more effective in that role. The best that SC can do during an attack is to run away/hide, then wait until they have something critical to transport. Don't forget, Small Craft are a poor man's DropShip.

Quote
Planets continue to suffer attacks from pirates and raiders. Not only that but if not every planet has mechs to defend it, with there being 55k of them, how can there be small craft for everyone with only 18k?
Militaries focus their forces more then civilians, and even a couple of thousand SC are enough to do the work, so with 18K there is an huge excess.

Just how many SC do you think are needed?
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Elmoth

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #49 on: 20 February 2019, 04:23:05 »
Going by the rough numbers of 2100 known colonized planets (as per the maps) and 63.000 mechs, we end up with 30 mechs per planet on average. The mechs are likely to be highly concentrated on the border systrems of each power, though.

A lance raid is dfairly common in the 3025. later on not so much, but in the 3025 a mech lance is more than capable to perform a lot of the usual raiding (and garisson) missions.

Kidd

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #50 on: 20 February 2019, 05:26:28 »
That doesn't mean that there's one at every planet. If there were there wouldn't be any "lost" planets.

Yet it does happen. It's just as risky for ASF and CF, which should be in plentiful supply to keep all those pirates and raiders from landing. There also wouldn't be any need to hire Mercs to defend against pirates. The functions of the SC depend entirely upon their design. Some are made purely for military purposes but even civilian ones can be
re-purposed.

Why must all planets have rare aerospace craft but far more plentiful mechs are completely absent? And why can only space-going craft make a recon flight? You can do that in a balloon.

If the risks were so great, why would anyone attack a planet to begin with? And military pilots who refuse to fight cease to be pilots. They become prisoners. Besides, they'd be escorted by the squadron of ASFs on the planet. And if the SC never take off, why wouldn't the pirates steal them too? And aircraft far more vulnerable than crop dusters have been used to spy on invasion forces.
"Lost" planets aren't lost because there are a lack of Jumpships. They're lost because they're not worth visiting by Jumpships.

Sure, a civilian SC can be repurposed, but for a defenceless SC it's far more risky than an ASF, not "just as". And there would still be plenty of need for mercs, because one SC or even ASF can't fight off a lance of Mechs let alone more.

You're not getting it, so I'll repeat what I said earlier: planets need at least one SC to do civilian extra-atmospheric stuff, maybe science experiments, maybe passenger interface with visiting ships, maybe maintaining the planetary positioning satellite net, what have you. Plus, it's established fact that many planets rely on conventional forces rather than Mechs, as the preference of Great Houses is to concentrate Mechs in viable numbers rather than spread them in penny packets across the whole universe. Same with ASFs. The lack of Mechs therefore doesn't preclude the lack of Small Craft.

I didn't say ONLY space-going craft can make a recon flight. You are welcome to do that in a balloon, and see what happens when you float that sloooooowly over the heads of the raiders.

What risks are you talking about? I was talking about the risk of an SC going up against raiders on a Dropship, occasionally with ASF support. You seem to think it's viable. I'm saying it's not. You work out the risks and tell me what you think.

You're right. Military pilots who cease to fight become prisoners. Was there a point you were trying to make with this information?

What squadron of ASFs?!?! There is NO squadron of ASFs in this scenario! I repeat, we're talking about a poor planet that can only afford to have a couple of SCs. Where in the world are you pulling a squadron of ASFs from?!

Try rereading the previous posts, think about what you're trying to propose, and write a coherent argument to support your proposition.

Mine is simple: Small Craft are space-going vessels more complex than Mechs and hence less numerous. However each planet has more need of at least one or two Small Craft than they are in need of Mechs. This is because Small Craft are highly useful for non-military civilian purposes whereas Mechs are not. Therefore each planet should have at least one or two Small Craft. However, it is unlikely that such civilian Small Craft are used in planetary conflicts, because they would contribute very little to the fight and deploying them risks an important piece of civilian equipment in what is essentially a suicide mission against inevitably superior destructive forces.

Hey I once with a friend designed and fluffed a "cropduster" support plan, that could with the right hardware be converted into a lowtech scout and ground attack plane.   They sold well to backwater planets who could use the dual role crafts. 

As long as the pirate in question have no more aerospace assets then Dropship, 1 even Sabre fighter can ruin a whole wings day
In which case the pilot(s) is probably trained as a dual-role operator, not just anyhoo local civilian pilot. I think the only time this could be useful is for a high-level recon flyby knowing the pirates don't have ASF of any kind. But how would one know that?

A whole "Mech lance or company" is what you're trying to say I think, not "wing". Well it's theoretically possible. But I wouldn't take the chance. Even a measly little Leopard has a big enough aft gun to punch out a Sabre.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2019, 05:39:02 by Kidd »

RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #51 on: 20 February 2019, 08:00:43 »
So what? Reread my posts, that has already been taken into account.

Most SC are civilian in nature, they aren't designed to pick a fight. If you want to bomb, then use CF, those are a lot more effective in that role. The best that SC can do during an attack is to run away/hide, then wait until they have something critical to transport. Don't forget, Small Craft are a poor man's DropShip.

Militaries focus their forces more then civilians, and even a couple of thousand SC are enough to do the work, so with 18K there is an huge excess.

Just how many SC do you think are needed?

Yet there is an insistence that every planet has small craft.

Giving a quick look I've found only 2 SC that are not armed and one of those is for use in space only. That leaves one purely civilian small craft, that happens to have 10 tons of armor. It could conduct high altitude bombing runs. And if CF were available why aren't we seeing them used against pirates and radiers? Because those planets don't have anything to defend themselves with. That's why they have to higher Mercs. And if SC are the poor man's dropship that makes them even more valuable to Pirates.

Small Craft would also be concentrated where they are needed. Military would be with the military, most of the civilians would be at major trade centers to move cargo and passengers. And again with an excessive 18k there should be enough ASF for every planet to defend themselves. Some don't even have CF. So why should there be SC for everyone?



Going by the rough numbers of 2100 known colonized planets (as per the maps) and 63.000 mechs, we end up with 30 mechs per planet on average. The mechs are likely to be highly concentrated on the border systrems of each power, though.

A lance raid is dfairly common in the 3025. later on not so much, but in the 3025 a mech lance is more than capable to perform a lot of the usual raiding (and garisson) missions.



3025 would be the Third Succession War  going from 2866-3025.



"Lost" planets aren't lost because there are a lack of Jumpships. They're lost because they're not worth visiting by Jumpships.

Sure, a civilian SC can be repurposed, but for a defenceless SC it's far more risky than an ASF, not "just as". And there would still be plenty of need for mercs, because one SC or even ASF can't fight off a lance of Mechs let alone more.

If the planet isn't worth visiting it's not going to have the tech to maintain small craft.
I've only found 1 purely civilian small craft capable of atmospheric operations and even it can carry plenty of bombs.

Quote
   
You're not getting it, so I'll repeat what I said earlier: planets need at least one SC to do civilian extra-atmospheric stuff, maybe science experiments, maybe passenger interface with visiting ships, maybe maintaining the planetary positioning satellite net, what have you. Plus, it's established fact that many planets rely on conventional forces rather than Mechs, as the preference of Great Houses is to concentrate Mechs in viable numbers rather than spread them in penny packets across the whole universe. Same with ASFs. The lack of Mechs therefore doesn't preclude the lack of Small Craft.

No not every planet needs SC. Not every planet is going to be doing extra-atmospheric stuff or even want to. Not every planet can even maintain small craft.
Small Craft are also going to be concentrated where the cargo and passengers are, not where they aren't.  It's like saying every train station has a train. Not only is that not true but not every train station even has empty cars on the tracks. Some train stations aren't even open. Trains aren't going to be there. SC aren't going to be at a planet Jumpships rarely go to.

Quote
   
I didn't say ONLY space-going craft can make a recon flight. You are welcome to do that in a balloon, and see what happens when you float that sloooooowly over the heads of the raiders. 
Balloons can get very high, out of range of ground fire. That's why fighters were sent up to shoot them down.

Quote
   
What risks are you talking about? I was talking about the risk of an SC going up against raiders on a Dropship, occasionally with ASF support. You seem to think it's viable. I'm saying it's not. You work out the risks and tell me what you think.

You're right. Military pilots who cease to fight become prisoners. Was there a point you were trying to make with this information?

The same risks the raiders would be facing when attacking a planet. SC with ASF and/or CF support. And again if there's no ASF why should there be SC on the planet? Again, there are less SC during the Star League and Succession Wars than there are ASF. That means they won't be everyhwere.
And you said, the pilots wouldn't conduct suicide missions. There is no way to know for sure if the mission would be a suicide one or not.


Quote
   
What squadron of ASFs?!?! There is NO squadron of ASFs in this scenario! I repeat, we're talking about a poor planet that can only afford to have a couple of SCs. Where in the world are you pulling a squadron of ASFs from?! 

There's more ASF than there are SC. And if the planet is so poor why would they invest in SC at all?  For the price of one civilian K-1 Shuttle a planet can buy four Protector CF or fifteen Guardian CFs.

Quote
   
Try rereading the previous posts, think about what you're trying to propose, and write a coherent argument to support your proposition.

Mine is simple: Small Craft are space-going vessels more complex than Mechs and hence less numerous. However each planet has more need of at least one or two Small Craft than they are in need of Mechs. This is because Small Craft are highly useful for non-military civilian purposes whereas Mechs are not. Therefore each planet should have at least one or two Small Craft. However, it is unlikely that such civilian Small Craft are used in planetary conflicts, because they would contribute very little to the fight and deploying them risks an important piece of civilian equipment in what is essentially a suicide mission against inevitably superior destructive forces.

Again, not every planet is going to want or need SC much less be able to maintain them. And just having them sit around invites them to be stolen along with everything else of value. Presuming they weren't already confiscated by the military to maintain their own SC.

Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #52 on: 20 February 2019, 13:42:05 »
Giving a quick look I've found only 2 SC that are not armed and one of those is for use in space only. That leaves one purely civilian small craft, that happens to have 10 tons of armor. It could conduct high altitude bombing runs.
And hit nothing with your bombing run, while being nearly helpless? The weapons on most SC aren't meant for Aerospace combat, in that area those are merely peashooters for anything but the lightest ASF, they are more for basic landing site security (such as against small support vehicles). Also the armor is mostly there for surviving landing/docking failures.
True combat SC are especially designed for it, anything less is merely a messy form of suicide.


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And if CF were available why aren't we seeing them used against pirates and radiers? Because those planets don't have anything to defend themselves with. That's why they have to higher Mercs.
It is quite normal for a planet to have CF, on what grounds do you claim otherwise? Also they hire mercenaries because you can't just rely on airpower for defense.


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And if SC are the poor man's dropship that makes them even more valuable to Pirates.
If a SC makes runs for it, then its fuel efficiency & life-support will allow it to outlast pirate ASF, also if there is some warning then the SC are also small enough to hide somewhere on the planet. And even if they are captured, then it will be difficult for any pirates to load the SC in their DS, nor very cost effective.


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Small Craft would also be concentrated where they are needed. Military would be with the military, most of the civilians would be at major trade centers to move cargo and passengers. And again with an excessive 18k there should be enough ASF for every planet to defend themselves. Some don't even have CF. So why should there be SC for everyone?
ASF are heavily concentrated into squadrons/wings which eats up the 18K fast. And the major trade centers would rely mostly on DropShips (Mules, etc), freeing up a lot of SC.


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Again, there are less SC during the Star League and Succession Wars than there are ASF.[snip]There's more ASF than there are SC.
Already disproven, it is closer to the reverse. This has been explained multiple times, but lets do it again:
Taking the tables of TM p283, with the lower letters show greater availability (A>B>C>D>E>F).
Standard Fusion (ASF)   C-E-D
Drive Unit (SC)  C-D-C
Engine (SC)   C-E-C

So we have equal availability during Star League and Succession Wars, and afterwards SC become significantly more available.

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Again, not every planet is going to want or need SC much less be able to maintain them.
If they need it most of the time then it isn't so expensive to get & maintain (poor man's DS after all), and if they have a very limited need then they can just hire the services of visiting JumpShips crews and their SC. No issues here.
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RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #53 on: 20 February 2019, 17:57:54 »
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And hit nothing with your bombing run, while being nearly helpless? The weapons on most SC aren't meant for Aerospace combat, in that area those are merely peashooters for anything but the lightest ASF, they are more for basic landing site security (such as against small support vehicles). Also the armor is mostly there for surviving landing/docking failures.


Presuming that's the minimum they do a 100 SC can carry a lot of bombs. And while it might miss individual mecha a dropship is a much bigger target. I don't think wants to risk their ride home.

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True combat SC are especially designed for it, anything less is merely a messy form of suicide.

Even using craft designed for it could be suicide.

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It is quite normal for a planet to have CF, on what grounds do you claim otherwise? Also they hire mercenaries because you can't just rely on airpower for defense.   

Because they would pose a threat to incoming dropship. They can also do bad things to ground umits. Yet we rarely ever hear of it. And no one shouldn't rely solely on air power. They'd have ground units as well. However if every planet could defend themselves they wouldn't need mercs.


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If a SC makes runs for it, then its fuel efficiency & life-support will allow it to outlast pirate ASF, also if there is some warning then the SC are also small enough to hide somewhere on the planet. And even if they are captured, then it will be difficult for any pirates to load the SC in their DS, nor very cost effective.

Why would it be running before knowing who's incoming?  And once they know wouldn't it be too late to run? Even if they could run getting away depends not just on the endurance of the SC but also the thrust of the enemy ASF. And the pirates would just load it into the jumpsuits bay.

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ASF are heavily concentrated into squadrons/wings which eats up the 18K fast. And the major trade centers would rely mostly on DropShips (Mules, etc), freeing up a lot of SC.   

Yes dropship are going to do most of the work but there is still plenty to do without using a more expensive dropship.

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Already disproven, it is closer to the reverse. This has been explained multiple times, but lets do it again:
Taking the tables of TM p283, with the lower letters show greater availability (A>B>C>D>E>F).
Standard Fusion (ASF)   C-E-D
Drive Unit (SC)  C-D-C
Engine (SC)   C-E-C

So we have equal availability during Star League and Succession Wars, and afterwards SC become significantly more available.

There's also the Structure which for SC is D-D-D. For ASF its C-D-D. That means SC still remain as rare as ASF.


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If they need it most of the time then it isn't so expensive to get & maintain (poor man's DS after all), and if they have a very limited need then they can just hire the services of visiting JumpShips crews and their SC. No issues here. 


Sure. If they can find one. Availability isn't that grest. More likely the JS crew would deploy any satellite that they're delivering for the planet. Presuming the planet would want one

Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #54 on: 21 February 2019, 15:09:47 »
Presuming that's the minimum they do a 100 SC can carry a lot of bombs. And while it might miss individual mecha a dropship is a much bigger target. I don't think wants to risk their ride home.
You do realize I am not going to take 100 SC seriously, right?

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Even using craft designed for it could be suicide.
The norm would be to use squadrons of CF, they drop their bombs in a single run and then get out, only a few will die in that way, very cost effective. 

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Because they would pose a threat to incoming dropship. They can also do bad things to ground umits. Yet we rarely ever hear of it.
You rarely hear of them, but they do exist, they aren't just as effective as you might think, and more often then not the local CF are fighting the pirate ASF and thus keeping them out of the narrative.

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However if every planet could defend themselves they wouldn't need mercs.
Mercs don't provide CFs or large numbers of SC, so Mercs aren't relevant to the discussion.

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Why would it be running before knowing who's incoming?  And once they know wouldn't it be too late to run? Even if they could run getting away depends not just on the endurance of the SC but also the thrust of the enemy ASF.
Even a day of warning should be enough to either run away or hide, and it takes days for DropShips to get to a planet from the normal jumppoints.   

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And the pirates would just load it into the jumpsuits bay.
More then likely their own SC bays are already occupied.

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Yes dropship are going to do most of the work but there is still plenty to do without using a more expensive dropship.
Bigger volumes still favor the DS.

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Sure. If they can find one. Availability isn't that grest. More likely the JS crew would deploy any satellite that they're delivering for the planet. Presuming the planet would want one
And the JS crew would be using their own SC to do that.
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Daryk

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #55 on: 21 February 2019, 18:56:33 »
I think the discussion might be dialed down by removing the absolute "every" or "none" from the conversation.  I think it's entirely reasonable to believe "most" worlds have access to "at least one" Small Craft that can be ordered (or hired) to put up a satellite or two now and then.  That's what the OP was originally about, at any rate.  Satellites.  Not Small Craft.

Maingunnery

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #56 on: 21 February 2019, 18:59:27 »
I think the discussion might be dialed down by removing the absolute "every" or "none" from the conversation.  I think it's entirely reasonable to believe "most" worlds have access to "at least one" Small Craft that can be ordered (or hired) to put up a satellite or two now and then.  That's what the OP was originally about, at any rate.  Satellites.  Not Small Craft.
Yes, what about estimating required satellite tonnage for various worlds?
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Daryk

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #57 on: 21 February 2019, 19:26:34 »
At a minimum, I think all worlds would need (not necessarily have) one weather satellite.  That would be enough to prepare for the worst (hurricanes, or whatever they call them on other planets).  I think that means a minimum of a "Hi-Res" imager, which is 2.5 tons (IR Imagers are 5 tons).  Supporting infrastructure (and common sense) probably boosts that to a minimum of 5 tons (call it 10 if it's IR or better).

Even worlds with "mere" 20th century tech are also going to want some kind of communications satellite(s), and that would be another 5-10 tons each.  Figuring three of those as a minimum (plus the weather bird), I'd go for about 30 tons of satellites for any world that can afford them (and they're not that expensive).

RifleMech

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #58 on: 22 February 2019, 01:07:34 »
I think the discussion might be dialed down by removing the absolute "every" or "none" from the conversation.  I think it's entirely reasonable to believe "most" worlds have access to "at least one" Small Craft that can be ordered (or hired) to put up a satellite or two now and then.  That's what the OP was originally about, at any rate.  Satellites.  Not Small Craft.


 :thumbsup:




At a minimum, I think all worlds would need (not necessarily have) one weather satellite.  That would be enough to prepare for the worst (hurricanes, or whatever they call them on other planets).  I think that means a minimum of a "Hi-Res" imager, which is 2.5 tons (IR Imagers are 5 tons).  Supporting infrastructure (and common sense) probably boosts that to a minimum of 5 tons (call it 10 if it's IR or better).

Even worlds with "mere" 20th century tech are also going to want some kind of communications satellite(s), and that would be another 5-10 tons each.  Figuring three of those as a minimum (plus the weather bird), I'd go for about 30 tons of satellites for any world that can afford them (and they're not that expensive).


I don't think satellites are a need for every world. Many could get by with weather radar and short wave radio and repeater towers. Most worlds, especially the more higher tech ones are going to want satellites. The more important planets are,going to have more sophisticated systems.  They'll have satellites with look down radar, all the imagets and tons of com. Equipment: Poorer worlds might have make do with a recon camera and a single ton of com Equipment.

Daryk

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Re: Satellites Discussion
« Reply #59 on: 22 February 2019, 05:34:03 »
True... worlds without weather don't need weather satellites.  And some of them might be small enough population-wise not to need over the horizon communications.

My concern for colonies only using ground based radar for weather tracking is that it pretty much reduces your hurricane preps to "evacuation", as you probably won't get more than a day or so of warning.  A satellite can give you a week or more to reinforce structures and prepare proper shelters.

 

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