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Author Topic: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?  (Read 833 times)

Gigastrike

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Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« on: 17 February 2019, 13:02:42 »
Full disclosure: I'm new and don't even fully understand the concept of LAMs, let alone how WiGE vehicles function.  I was trying to design a custom mech in MML which I want to fluff as a WiGE/Mech hybrid rather than a LAM, but it doesn't seem to be supported.

Are there rules for this that just aren't supported by MML, or is this just an unexplored concept?  If it's unexplored, is it because LAMs are just better than what this would be?

Alexander Knight

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #1 on: 17 February 2019, 13:34:43 »
In a word?  No.

The closest thing you could get to a "WiGE" 'Mech would be a 'Mech using a Partial Wing setup.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #2 on: 17 February 2019, 13:37:29 »
Yeah, the rules don't allow for it.  However, the rules didn't always allow for jump jets on tanks either, so just because something is impossible in a meta sense doesn't mean it's impossible in-universe.

Along that tack: I suppose it'd be possible to build a hybrid mech/wige, there's just little reason to want to since LAMs exist.  WiGEs have fairly signficiant drawbacks to go with their advantages, and in the case of LAMs they can transform into and out of the movement mode as tactically warranted.  That's much more viable than being forever stuck in WiGE movement mode... why not just build a WiGE?

On the other hand if you're asking about building a LAM that only goes between mech and WiGE (no ASF mode)... again the rules don't allow for it but it'd be an interesting idea to explore via house rules.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2019, 13:52:44 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Gigastrike

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #3 on: 17 February 2019, 13:54:18 »
I guess I should clarify that the intention was for it to convert itself between the two forms the same way that a LAM would, except instead of becoming an aerospace fighter it would become a WiGE.

It's disappointing to hear that this isn't a thing, but I'm still interested in knowing how it would work.  I guess what I need to know is what the practical differences are between aerospace fighters and WiGEs beyond only the former being capable of space flight.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #4 on: 17 February 2019, 14:00:24 »
The differences between WiGEs and ASFs are profound.

WiGEs are really closer to VTOLs with how the rules treat them, but they're still fundamentally different than helos.
The important characteristics of WiGEs:
They have two movement modes, along the ground and airborne. (technically, like conventional aircraft do!) They always only have 1MP on the ground and it's usually kinda pointless to use it.  But they can land more or less anywhere that's open terrain for free, and it costs 5 MP to "take off". IIRC they've got the same abilities/restrictions on the ground as do hovercraft, although they also have the ability to float safely in water.

Once airborne, they always stay 1 elevation above the terrain hex. This means they need to go around things like trees and buildings. Unlike VTOLs, they can't ascend higher than that.  But also unlike VTOLs, they gain elevation for free when going uphill or downhill (so long as it's no more than 1 elevation change per hex).  As a fun point: they CAN go flying off a cliff (they just can't fly UP one) and "land" safely at 1 elevation above the ground as normal.


Proper aircraft on the other hand (conventional fighters, Aerospace fighters, etc) have an entirely different rules set.  They don't even register on the game map; they fly OVER it.

Edit:  As a point of clarity, if you weren't aware LAMs have three modes: Battlemech, ASF, and hybrid "AirMech" mode that works under the same rules as WiGEs.  As I said there's no such thing as a LAM that drops the ASF, but it'd be neat to house rule one that did.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2019, 14:06:27 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Gigastrike

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #5 on: 17 February 2019, 14:12:02 »
Edit:  As a point of clarity, if you weren't aware LAMs have three modes: Battlemech, ASF, and hybrid "AirMech" mode that works under the same rules as WiGEs.  As I said there's no such thing as a LAM that drops the ASF, but it'd be neat to house rule one that did.

Oh, yeah I had no idea.  That's probably exactly what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the explanations.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #6 on: 18 February 2019, 01:24:16 »

There are rules for Glider Protomechs that use WIGE movement in Glider mode.  They don't convert like LAMs, but they have walking and gliding movement.  And they are limited in the tonnage of Ultraheavy Protomechs.  The Svartalfa is the only canon example, AFAIK.

But you should probably learn about Protomechs, first.  Hope this helps.
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Gigastrike

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #7 on: 18 February 2019, 13:09:24 »
That's an interesting thought.  I'd need to downscale the design a little, but it's very possible that what I'm envisioning exists at a smaller scale standard from battletech anyway.

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #8 on: 18 February 2019, 18:55:44 »
I think the QuadVees also offer a option for hovercraft though we do not have a canon example.  While a Horse combined arms fan, to be honest I have not really looked closely at the rules or canon units.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #9 on: 18 February 2019, 22:29:42 »
i beleive they are limited to wheels and tracks at the moment. but IMO a hover version will probably be the next big advancement in them.. though if the weight limits, motive system weight, and engine requirement carries over from vehicles, they may not be all that useful.

RifleMech

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #10 on: 20 February 2019, 08:30:32 »
The closest legal option would be leaving a LAM in AirMech Mode which uses a WiGE style movement.

I've never seen a hover QuadVee but there are Hover AutoMechs. It shouldn't be to hard to adapt one, although QuadVees do pay tonnage for their motive systems.

I also don't know why the AutoMech rules couldn't be adapted to create a WiGEMech or scale up the Glider ProtoMech to make a GliderMech.

Pretty much any of the above is technically possible. I just wouldn't make anything too powerful. LAMs, especially their AirMech mode, get a lot of grief already.

mbear

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #11 on: 20 February 2019, 09:26:00 »
Full disclosure: I'm new and don't even fully understand the concept of LAMs, ...
Not to make this another LAM thread (which will ultimately be killed by the mods because LAM threads get annoying quickly), but...

LAMs == "You got your AeroSpace Fighter in my BattleMech!" "You got your BattleMech in my AeroSpace Fighter!"

Seriously, they're a neat idea that doesn't quite work out as well as you'd hope. They're light/medium BattleMechs that can convert into light aerospace fighters. The general consensus I'm aware of is that strategically, they offer great advantages for special operations teams and deep raids, but in a typical BattleTech match they're not great, typically underperforming their dedicated BattleMech/aerospace fighter equivalents.

They're basically almost cripplingly overspecialized. Some free advice: Don't bother with them for now. Focus on 'Mechs, vehicles, and infantry to start. Once you get experience with those, you can move into the other niche units like LAMs and QuadVees.

Daryk

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #12 on: 20 February 2019, 09:33:36 »
With those kind of movement rates, you need a large playing area (or rolling maps) to make them shine.  They're not great in a phone booth fight.

Elmoth

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #13 on: 20 February 2019, 10:05:42 »
Regarding LAMs, you can see their origin idea in Macross. They are the Macross human mechs ported to the BattleTech universe.


Kit deSummersville

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #14 on: 20 February 2019, 10:22:31 »
LAMs are a strategic weapon in a primarily tactical game.
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Daryk

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #15 on: 20 February 2019, 11:14:58 »
Strategic/operational level, but yes.

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #16 on: 20 February 2019, 13:43:04 »
And this is why the Tonbo exists. Great at a strategic level for moving your assault lance over bad terrain to surprise the opponent.  Just don't expect it to take a hit.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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RifleMech

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #17 on: 20 February 2019, 18:28:11 »
Definately check out Interstellar Opetations and Nebula California.  IO has the rules for LANd and QuadVees. NC has the rules for AutoMechs.

The easiest would be to just fluff fighter mode to be a WiGE and use the AirMech's movement rules. Be prepared for a lot of grief though. It's the AirMech that causes so many problems. Or more specifically the AirMech's movement that causes problems.

Gigastrike

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #18 on: 21 February 2019, 10:31:44 »
Definately check out Interstellar Opetations and Nebula California.  IO has the rules for LANd and QuadVees. NC has the rules for AutoMechs.

...Are AutoMechs just transformers?  I feel like they're transformers.  I mean, it's not super blatant, but this book also has rules for stuff that's from Star Wars and X-men.

mbear

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #19 on: 22 February 2019, 08:16:56 »
...Are AutoMechs just transformers?  I feel like they're transformers.  I mean, it's not super blatant, but this book also has rules for stuff that's from Star Wars and X-men.

Yes, the AutoMechs are Transformers. I mean, the AutoMechs are Catalyst's homage to Transformers. Like a tribute band. (Those last two sentences should stop any aggressive copyright lawyers. ;) )

RifleMech

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #20 on: 22 February 2019, 10:31:33 »
...Are AutoMechs just transformers?  I feel like they're transformers.  I mean, it's not super blatant, but this book also has rules for stuff that's from Star Wars and X-men.


Like mbear said they're Catalysts's homage to to elements from science fiction and fantasy. That said, a little house ruling and you have piloted versions which opens converting BattleMechs to a lot of new possibilities.

Wolf72

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Re: Are WiGE Mechs a Thing or Even Viable?
« Reply #21 on: 22 February 2019, 18:15:09 »
hover and vtol transformers are kinda cool too.

with anything you loose weapons and what not with conversion gear, but usually gain some sort of mobility advantage.
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