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Author Topic: Griffin 6CS LAM  (Read 350 times)

Cyk0

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Griffin 6CS LAM
« on: 21 February 2019, 09:44:50 »
Created as a follow up to the Hunchback LAM prototype during Doctor Cortland early in the area on land-air-mech designs. Intended to fix some of the flaws of his earlier design, he set out to match the performance of a current WOB design without using the high heat/high explosive pIJJ's that plagued the hunchback. A tall order since he was no longer trying to improve on a dated 3025 design.

He managed to totally match the armor, electronics, sinking, jump speedand loadout of the normal production Griffin 6CS (The clan weapons, especially the ERPPC were actually significantly more capable).
In order to protect the conversion equipment failure from ammo explosion that plagued the hunchback, the CASE was upgraded to CASE II
Going down to a smaller less bulky engine and getting jumping distance from IJJs instead, helped reduce the risk of engine criticals at the expense of walking ground speed.
The more heat efficient jets help the design run cooler in combat conditions

The downside?
With the original design relying on bulky endo steel to save weight it was deemed necessary to unfortunately continue using the fragile composite structure.
 
Code: [Select]
Griffin 6CS LAM

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: IS, with Clan weapons
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech

Chassis: Composite Structure
Power Plant: 165 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: Improved Jump Jets
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  (CL) ER PPC
    1  (CL) LRM-15 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    2  (CL) ER Medium Lasers
    6  M-Pods
    1  Improved C3 Computer
    1  ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Bannock-Braigh Aerospace
    Primary Factory: Terran Blacksite 51
Communications System: Prototype Master's Voice
Targeting and Tracking System: Prototype Master's Sight

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Composite Structure           91 points                3.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                165                       6.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 5 Improved
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 LT, 2 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL                             5.00
Heat Sinks:         (IS) Double Heat Sink        12(24)                    2.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 2 LA, 2 RA
Gyro:               Standard                                               2.00
Conversion Equipment                                                       6.00
    Avionics Locations: 1 HD, 1 LT, 1,RT
    Landing Gear:       1 CT, 1 LT, 1,RT
Cockpit:            Small                                                  2.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 160                 10.00
    CASE II Locations: 1 RT                                                1.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           24       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     13           18       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  6         
                                             L/R Arm     9            16       
                                             L/R Leg     13           20       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECM Suite                                    HD        0         1         1.00
(CL) ER Medium Laser                         CT        5         1         1.00
(CL) LRM-15                                  RT        5         2         3.50
    Artemis IV FCS                           RT        -         1         1.00
Improved C3 Computer                         LT        0         2         2.50
(CL) ER PPC                                  RA        15        2         6.00
(CL) ER Medium Laser                         LA        5         1         1.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16)                       RT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 1

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      5    Points: 20
3/5j       4       4       3       0      2     1   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: C3I, ECM, CASEII, MHQ2, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1

packhntr

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #1 on: 21 February 2019, 10:19:54 »
wow....severely reduced groundspeed....dang.  Otherwise, it is very nice.  And composite internals isn't too bad....when the speed is up...here....not so good....
If at first you don't succeed, make it worth the repairman's time!

Cyk0

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #2 on: 21 February 2019, 10:35:28 »
I was actually surprised at how well I could replicate a more modern lightened engine design by primarily decreasing engine size. You would be spending every turn jumping or in some othe mode so it should be quite mobile compared to the original.

It's to bad I could fit extra fuel, but with only two tones of ammo on the original I mirrored it's not to big of a deal breaker.

Easy

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #3 on: 21 February 2019, 11:32:59 »
I'm ambivalent about 2/3 and 3/5 LAMs. I understand the doctrine, somewhat. I suppose it would take a significant amount of playing through scenarios to see clearly what kind of liability you suffer from 2/3 and 3/5 ground movement. Intuitively, my first reaction is, "Why do you need the walking speed when you can move so much better in AirMech mode?", but there may be mission objectives that make that undoable.

Trying to imagine what kind of scenario that might be, that would absolutely require full 'Mech-mode? There seems to be a gap.  'Mech-mode is where a LAM can be most vulnerable, particularly if it's crawling along at 2/3 or 3/5.

The tie-in between ground speed and how jump jets determine AirMech mode, practically, means that a LAMs ground speed is almost always a design afterthought, because your really sizing engines for AirMech or fighter-mode far more often than for ground speed.

I certainly don't believe we've tapped out the ocean of potential 'doctrines' for LAMs, by a long shot. Scenarios that demand BattleMech-mode might, currently, seem to be the most contrived, though.

LAM doctrine is kind of difficult, but fun. :)
« Last Edit: 21 February 2019, 11:44:47 by Easy »

Cyk0

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #4 on: 21 February 2019, 13:43:17 »
Oh, that's a deeper more analytical answer than I was hoping for here easy :P I was simply trying to see how I i could fit a contemporary desing as a LAM loosing as little as possible.

That said I agree with the premiss of your analysis.

The way I see it if you are trying to build something really useful you optimize it for one mission profile and have one or two of the other roles fulfilling a  supporting function.

You could hav something intended to fight in airmech mode, that can be a fighter for long range relocation and a mech to allow terrain masked aproach to an objective or something in that vein.

Or simply have a fluff based use of a mode, like the self rearming I wrote about on my old mara on your thread ;) (that design has ben updated btw)
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58977.msg1355890#msg1355890

Easy

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #5 on: 15 March 2019, 10:11:33 »
Different LAMs for different kinds of mission profiles.

Might seem paradoxical. The myth of the do-it-all LAM is that your trying to make a combat unit that is mission-neutral. To some extent, that is possible, but you might be giving up efficiency in each potential role to conserve efficiency for all roles.

Another approach is, instead of trying to accumulate roles, start with a list of roles and eliminate roles one by one until you arrive at a doable subset. (In the end, there is always uprooting a tree and bashing somebody with it, but that's neither here nor there.)

The standard Alpha Strike role profiles might be a helpful place to start assembling a role profile list; Striker, Recon, Brawler, etc.

Would we be better off with the unofficial conception of a LAM category, or just keep trying to shoehorn LAMs into Recon/Striker? If that's true, we keep trying to fulfill Recon/Striker, then maybe a more Alpha Strike looking role profile satisfaction criteria is helpful. Of course, this is all speculative fiction, so definitive answers that are widely applicable might be called too difficult and contentious on other tables.

I think it would be more helpful to cleanly distinguish between a subjective, "does this fit into my ToE?", and, "can I build a ToE that includes or even features this?".

If you try and fit the LAM option into a well-developed, doctrinal ToE that has it's bases covered, you might have a hard time. Conversely, if you start with an edgy unit like a LAM, building out the ToE around it can be an easier task.

The MR-SLAM project is definitely a "build the ToE around the featured unit" prospect.

Optional rules, like your self-rearming capability, and my omni-like weapon-or-external-ordinance pods, we can keep to our own tables.
« Last Edit: 15 March 2019, 10:59:14 by Easy »

Wrangler

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #6 on: 15 March 2019, 12:48:16 »
I wonder if Hand-Weapons would help the need for extra firepower.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
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grimlock1

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #7 on: 15 March 2019, 14:54:05 »
I'm ambivalent about 2/3 and 3/5 LAMs. I understand the doctrine, somewhat. I suppose it would take a significant amount of playing through scenarios to see clearly what kind of liability you suffer from 2/3 and 3/5 ground movement. Intuitively, my first reaction is, "Why do you need the walking speed when you can move so much better in AirMech mode?", but there may be mission objectives that make that undoable.

Trying to imagine what kind of scenario that might be, that would absolutely require full 'Mech-mode? There seems to be a gap.  'Mech-mode is where a LAM can be most vulnerable, particularly if it's crawling along at 2/3 or 3/5.

The tie-in between ground speed and how jump jets determine AirMech mode, practically, means that a LAMs ground speed is almost always a design afterthought, because your really sizing engines for AirMech or fighter-mode far more often than for ground speed.

I certainly don't believe we've tapped out the ocean of potential 'doctrines' for LAMs, by a long shot. Scenarios that demand BattleMech-mode might, currently, seem to be the most contrived, though.

LAM doctrine is kind of difficult, but fun. :)
The attacker movement mods for Airmechs are a good reason to go to mech mode.  As are the turn mode restrictions. Sure you can fly over urban or other dirty terrain, but if the fight is in the city or forest, the Airmech is at a pretty hefty disadvantage.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Easy

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #8 on: 15 March 2019, 15:04:12 »
The attacker movement mods for Airmechs are a good reason to go to mech mode.  As are the turn mode restrictions. Sure you can fly over urban or other dirty terrain, but if the fight is in the city or forest, the Airmech is at a pretty hefty disadvantage.
Of course. Perhaps the only saving grace in such a scenario is that such terrain will provide some cover and reduce effective weapons ranges, which a chronically under-gunned and under-armored Battlemech-mode LAM can try to exploit. 2/3 and 3/5 movement in a dense city, for instance, isn't such a disadvantage unless you just insist on trying to run down the streets, instead of jumping and moving through light structures. At least a jumping or Airmech unit has that chance to avoid getting mobbed by infantry, where a 3/5 Assault 'Mech or Tank might not.

Daryk

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #9 on: 15 March 2019, 18:00:44 »
If the fight is IN a city or forest, the commander that commits LAMs isn't doing it right.  That's not what those units are for, unless it's drawing the enemy through those terrains for other units more suited to the fight.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #10 on: 15 March 2019, 19:27:06 »
I wonder if Hand-Weapons would help the need for extra firepower.

Are handheld weapons treated like external cargo?  That might preclude them from any mode other than BattleMech mode - I don't think they can fly in AirMech mode while hauling external cargo, though I'd have to dig up my rules to confirm.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Cyk0

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #11 on: 16 March 2019, 16:07:29 »
Maybe you could fly or drop the handhelds in with a supercheap disposable thing?

Wrangler

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Re: Griffin 6CS LAM
« Reply #12 on: 16 March 2019, 20:55:35 »
Are handheld weapons treated like external cargo?  That might preclude them from any mode other than BattleMech mode - I don't think they can fly in AirMech mode while hauling external cargo, though I'd have to dig up my rules to confirm.
I don't know about aerospace fighter mode, but won't AirMech Mode work? As long it's being held in both hands like the usually handled?
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

 

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