Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions

[Sjhernan3060]

The Blood Spirits might do better bankrolling another Clans endeavour with ammunition, repairs, and equipment rather than taking part themselves. They were the smallest Clan at this point and another Clan might take issue with there strikes for something as valuable as a warship.

I've always thought they would have done better following in the Hells Horses footsteps and offering there services as a Garrison Force to a Inner Sphere Clan.

Alas what could have been... can you imagine blood spirit snow raven team up? The spirts would have been great spear carriers for an invader esp with their specialization in defense.

[Sjhernan3060]

Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

Was rereading FM warden clans and it mentions that the scorpions pretty much attacked the jags the moment they heard huntress was being assaulted. This netted them some nice territory etc.

Seems to me that the moment the smoke cleared on Albion after the adders crushed the burrock elite is when the spirits should have attacked.

With their much larger than known touman and mandrill allies as back up I think the case could have been made for them to take and hold the world and the ship yards.

[Sjhernan3060]

Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.

I always get murky but on how trials of possession work. If they hit the Cheops shipyards could they only trial for control of the yards and not the warships on hand?

If so how would that affect bidding?

[Stormlion1]

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

[Sjhernan3060]

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

If they struck together could the parameters me:

Blood spirits trial for ships on hand

Mandrills trial for the yards?

[Stormlion1]

Honestly this might be seen as dishonorable by the defending Clan as they would have to split there defensive bids. Two against one as it were. But that's just my guess honestly.

[RifleMech]

I always get murky but on how trials of possession work. If they hit the Cheops shipyards could they only trial for control of the yards and not the warships on hand?

If so how would that affect bidding?

It could change the amount, type, and quality of forces they use to defend their property with. The more that's bid on the greater the units bid in their defense.

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

Actually, you don't have to bid on more than what you want. If you just want the yards, only bid on the yards.

Honestly this might be seen as dishonorable by the defending Clan as they would have to split there defensive bids. Two against one as it were. But that's just my guess honestly.

It might if they were seen acting together and in concert. Even then they'd still their own bidding to take their targets and they'd still have to fight for them. I think it would be dishonorable if they trialed for one but used a bid large enough to take both.

[Sjhernan3060]

It could change the amount, type, and quality of forces they use to defend their property with. The more that's bid on the greater the units bid in their defense.


Actually, you don't have to bid on more than what you want. If you just want the yards, only bid on the yards.

It might if they were seen acting together and in concert. Even then they'd still their own bidding to take their targets and they'd still have to fight for them. I think it would be dishonorable if they trialed for one but used a bid large enough to take both.

Right so I’d say the mandrills bid it down to a ship duel for the yards and the spirits did the same for the ships that would be ok?

[RifleMech]

Right so I’d say the mandrills bid it down to a ship duel for the yards and the spirits did the same for the ships that would be ok?

That would depend on what was bid in their defense. Clans want to bid less than the defenders so that taking the prize is a challenge and will gain them honor. Usually. There are exceptions such as forcing a rival to bid too low and get hurt. Defenders of course want to bid high enough to keep the prize but still have the fight be a challenge to gain honor. Usually. Sometimes they'll be really low when they want to lose or bid everything when the prize is super valuable or they just don't like the other and want to make them pay.

[Sjhernan3060]

That would depend on what was bid in their defense. Clans want to bid less than the defenders so that taking the prize is a challenge and will gain them honor. Usually. There are exceptions such as forcing a rival to bid too low and get hurt. Defenders of course want to bid high enough to keep the prize but still have the fight be a challenge to gain honor. Usually. Sometimes they'll be really low when they want to lose or bid everything when the prize is super valuable or they just don't like the other and want to make them pay.

Very true. So to not run afoul of clan custom and or law they would need to declare the trial and explain who is fighting for what correct?

[RifleMech]

Very true. So to not run afoul of clan custom and or law they would need to declare the trial and explain who is fighting for what correct?

Correct. They'd say what they'd want and ask what forces the defenders would be using. Then they'd decide what forces to send against it. If questioned about the timing of another Clan's attack their best response would be "Coincidence. If they get in our way, they will pay for their arrogance." or something.

[Sjhernan3060]

Was rereading FM warden clans and it mentions that the scorpions pretty much attacked the jags the moment they heard huntress was being assaulted. This netted them some nice territory etc.

Seems to me that the moment the smoke cleared on Albion after the adders crushed the burrock elite is when the spirits should have attacked.

With their much larger than known touman and mandrill allies as back up I think the case could have been made for them to take and hold the world and the ship yards.

Also if the adders did lose this prize it would have hobbled their bloated fleet and I would think it would have really upset the former burrocks which would have caused the adders more trouble

[rebs]

I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache. 

[Sjhernan3060]

I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache.

That is a great question! Per the FM the rank and file folks were horrified by the burrock leaderships collusion with the Dark. Hence why they rolled over for the adders. The spirits had never had to govern folks beyond their own for decades and I am very curious how they would have handled it

[Sjhernan3060]

Ok I just received the amazing shipyard kit from ravenstar studios which will feature heavily in this campaign. But the campaign needs a name! How about operation blood and fire?

Too on the nose?

[rebs]

Monkey Spirit would not be as good, and Monkey Blood might be too visceral.  So Blood and Fire or Fire Blood is the way to go.

[Sjhernan3060]

Lol I like monkey spirit!

[Generic Clanner 24601]

I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache.

I dunno. I admit, I'm fairly new to the universe, but I get the sense that civilian castes don't hold the same grudges that the warrior castes hold. They might not like the Blood Spirits, but if they are treated right, they'd probably get on board real quick. If not.... well, then they probably would be a headache.

[Sjhernan3060]

I dunno. I admit, I'm fairly new to the universe, but I get the sense that civilian castes don't hold the same grudges that the warrior castes hold. They might not like the Blood Spirits, but if they are treated right, they'd probably get on board real quick. If not.... well, then they probably would be a headache.

You know on the burrock/adder side I am not so sure. Up until the absorption the spirits and been in isolation

[Sjhernan3060]

After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

[Guardian11]

After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

Considering previous precedents like the Harvest Trials, and various Clusters and Galaxies changing hands, as well as the trading and trialing for various Bloodrights up to and including an entire Blood House. No abjuration would be required. If the 2 Clans are relatively friendly to each other and the Clan gaining the Blood House could offer enough to offset the loss of the Blood House they could make a trade. If the 2 Clans are unfriendly to each other or can't offer enough for a trade deal, they would need to initiate a Trial of Possession for the Blood House. Though currently in use Blood Houses are very valuable commodities, so it's almost unheard of outside Trials of Absorption for an entire Blood House to exclusively change hands from one Clan to another. Though gaining significant access to the use of the genes of a Blood House becomes quite common in the wake of the losses post WoR.

[Sjhernan3060]

That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

In universe would other clans know that mick kreese has exceptional warship captains?

[rebs]

The Snow Ravens might notice.

Not sure about the other clans.

[Sjhernan3060]

The Snow Ravens might notice.

Not sure about the other clans.

That’s what would think as well. It’s the basis for my idea that a canny mandrill warship captain could pull off a stunning upset and net his kindraa a huge victory

[Nibs]

Given the earlier statement about the Ravens whooping any other Clans in a one-on-one battle, I have doubts.

I've always viewed the real-world parallel of the Snow Ravens' navy to the Royal Navy. I believe that the Ravens even maintained a Two Power Standard (naval power equivalent to at least two other powers combined) similar to the Victorian Brits.

While the Royal Navy has been responsible for some of the most famous naval victories in history, they didn't always have the most competent admirals (see: HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown, 1893). Accordingly, if you believe the parallel between the RN and Clan Snow Raven, the Raven obsession with naval power may indeed include some brilliant naval minds; however, it is largely formed on the basis of overwhelming firepower.

I can't think of any Snow Raven naval actions that relied on superior WarShip captains. While the whittling down of the Raven navy may have been sparked by real-world narrative desires to remove a staggeringly powerful force from a minor power (seriously, the Ravens' part in the Jihad was essentially "All of your WarShips blow up"), I can contextualize their losses as part of a weakness in the Ravens part. Too much shining-up-the-ships, parades, neatly-dressed officers, and not enough actual experience in naval combat (again, mirroring the Royal Navy of the late-Victorian age).

That is all to say, I would absolutely believe in the possibility of exceptional Mick-Kreese WarShip captains. They are forced to command their vessels isolated from the remainder of the Fire Mandrills' navy. They likely fight a bit more often against the other Kindraa, gaining experience in naval tactics. One-on-one, I don't think it is a given that the Ravens win (despite my factional allegiance!), due to their reliance on overwhelming numbers.

Given the relative obscurity of the Fire Mandrills and the rarity of naval combat, I doubt that even the Ravens would notice the skill of the Mick-Kreese captains. I think your idea of a stunning upset absolutely had merit, particularly when the other Clan has a stronger belief in their naval tradition. And hey, it doesn't have to be the Ravens either.

[Sjhernan3060]

Given the earlier statement about the Ravens whooping any other Clans in a one-on-one battle, I have doubts.

I've always viewed the real-world parallel of the Snow Ravens' navy to the Royal Navy. I believe that the Ravens even maintained a Two Power Standard (naval power equivalent to at least two other powers combined) similar to the Victorian Brits.

While the Royal Navy has been responsible for some of the most famous naval victories in history, they didn't always have the most competent admirals (see: HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown, 1893). Accordingly, if you believe the parallel between the RN and Clan Snow Raven, the Raven obsession with naval power may indeed include some brilliant naval minds; however, it is largely formed on the basis of overwhelming firepower.

I can't think of any Snow Raven naval actions that relied on superior WarShip captains. While the whittling down of the Raven navy may have been sparked by real-world narrative desires to remove a staggeringly powerful force from a minor power (seriously, the Ravens' part in the Jihad was essentially "All of your WarShips blow up"), I can contextualize their losses as part of a weakness in the Ravens part. Too much shining-up-the-ships, parades, neatly-dressed officers, and not enough actual experience in naval combat (again, mirroring the Royal Navy of the late-Victorian age).

That is all to say, I would absolutely believe in the possibility of exceptional Mick-Kreese WarShip captains. They are forced to command their vessels isolated from the remainder of the Fire Mandrills' navy. They likely fight a bit more often against the other Kindraa, gaining experience in naval tactics. One-on-one, I don't think it is a given that the Ravens win (despite my factional allegiance!), due to their reliance on overwhelming numbers.

Given the relative obscurity of the Fire Mandrills and the rarity of naval combat, I doubt that even the Ravens would notice the skill of the Mick-Kreese captains. I think your idea of a stunning upset absolutely had merit, particularly when the other Clan has a stronger belief in their naval tradition. And hey, it doesn't have to be the Ravens either.

Nibs thank you for that very insightful post! The seed for this thread came from my reread of FM crusaders which noted the very strong warship bloodlines of mick kreese and the wars of reaving source book where a raven captain challenged for and won nearly an entire naval star.

[Nibs]

Nibs thank you for that very insightful post! The seed for this thread came from my reread of FM crusaders which noted the very strong warship bloodlines of mick kreese and the wars of reaving source book where a raven captain challenged for and won nearly an entire naval star.

Oh, I don't remember this one! I have my Wars of Reaving here under my desk; do you recall the page(s) that this happens?

[Sjhernan3060]

Oh, I don't remember this one! I have my Wars of Reaving here under my desk; do you recall the page(s) that this happens?

Here ya https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sagitta

[Sjhernan3060]

Also another another target for our dynamic duo would have been the Brian caches of the jags or nova cats

[rebs]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.