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Author Topic: The Federated Sun's Reborn  (Read 18635 times)

cawest

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #330 on: 07 July 2019, 16:36:25 »
I looked at the Wolf in Exile and Hounds vs ComStar vs LC.  this is based on your latest update Feb 66

first what does ComStar need and what does it have.

It needs everything.  Mechs, tanks, Fighters, dropships, warships, a way to vet their people, medical, and new weapons tech. 

what do they have to trade?  they have MONEY, the design rights to a crap ton of stuff, repair ships.
 

What do the WiE and Hound need and what do they have.

their fleet just got hit hard and they need to rebuild and recover.  they need production to make more and replacement Mechs, tanks and ect.

In this timeline the LC is not doing so well or very stable.  they are also week in warships.  Kell and his son would know and see this.  How would they counter this?  In RTL they have the Lupus Majoris modular space station and WC Aerospace Annex on Arc-Royal.  they also have a few production areas but they can not meet the needs of both units. 

They have design specs for many clan dropships like the carrier.  they might work with the NC who captured a Noruff. 

What was thinking that they could trade newly made Titans or the plans for Titan Cs.  IN RTL the Isegrim was build at the annex.  what if they traded three or four Titans or Titan C or Carrier to ComStar that were build in the Annex or on the Lupus?  ComStar could use a repair ship to get all of the warships and dropships hulks out of that one system or scrapped and back to a support base. 

what would ComStar trade to get access to Lupus Majoris modular space station?  could ComStar and wolf/Kell or LC copy it to support their fleets?  Could the WD do the same? 

the risks.   Arc-Royal is on the front line, so there is a risk.  What would ComStar risk to get say a 10% of the Timber Wolf or some other IIC machine.  Would they help build a single "repair" slip fixed to the Lupus?  What if they could put into production the Comitatus or Odyssey with that slip after the ships are repaired?   

with the Smoke Jags gone and the Sun Jag, so small what happened to the Miraborg? 

also on your update on production I could only find the Congress D slips.  could you update the other slips? 


PsihoKekec

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #331 on: 08 July 2019, 02:29:07 »
Will WoB repeat the process on other Comstar compounds in CC? Smart move by Dow would be to evacuate as much personell and equipment from CC as he can, befor WoB and CCAF round them all up.

Quote
Work on several new shipyards within the Combine and Confederation is pushed forward at an even more frantic pace, although this results in a number of additional industrial accidents that leave trained staff crippled or killed. However in the eyes of the various advisers to the Chancellor and Coordinator these are losses that must be borne.
I'm sure the ships are finished to highest standards of quality.
« Last Edit: 09 July 2019, 01:21:03 by PsihoKekec »
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LightGuard

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #332 on: 08 July 2019, 21:34:50 »
Will WoB repeat the process on other Comstar compounds in CC? Smart move by Dow would be to evacuate as much personell and equipment from CC as he can, befor WoB and CCAF round them all up.
I'm sure the ships are finished to highest standards of quality.
The Tatsumaki was also a hot mess in the OTL, so that won't change.
« Last Edit: 09 July 2019, 10:49:39 by LightGuard »
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Billy Boy Mark II

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #333 on: 10 July 2019, 09:40:31 »
3066 - April - Battleships

April began with the Federated Sun's responding to no less than 2 concerning reports on foreign states warships. Clan Ghost Bear had announced to the other clans and Star League that the Leviathan had now completed it's upgrade from a huge transport into a state of the art massive battleship. Worse was the fact that MIIO and the DMI had confirmed reports that not only was the second Leviathan transport also under refit into a full battleship but that the Ghost Bears had began construction of a third such monstrous vessel. By 3069 the Ghost Bear Dominion would have not fewer than 3 huge super battleships each potentially capable of laying waste to entire flotillas and squadrons of lesser vessels. While the Ghost Bears didn't share a border with the Federated Suns the threat couldn't be ignored. However of more immediate concern was the news from the realm that divided the Dominion and FedSuns. On Luthien the Coordinator had announced that the long stalled battleship project the DCS Yamato had finally been completed. The press conference had been light on details, but from bits and pieces that the various agencies had managed to put together it was obvious that while the design had a number of faults and limitations the Kurita's had indeed managed to put a 1,400,000 ton battleship into space. Even a problematic ship like the DCS Yamato offered to give the DCN at least local superiority almost anywhere she went unless countered by mass numbers of lighter warships. Reports were also being confirmed that the Combine had also began a sister ship for the battleship and actually intended to add a second slip in the hopes of assembling a full squadron of 4 Yamato's. If such a formation was created and the Federated Sun's Navy didn't have a counter for it then the ramifications would be almost certainly disastrous. The Federated Sun's simply could not rely on the Kurita battleships being tied down on the Dominion front. The reports were hurriedly forwarded to the Prince's Champion.

These reports reached Ardan Sortek just before he meets with the Archon Peter Steiner who has just returned to Tharkad from the slowly quieting Jade Falcon front. When the Federated Sun's "ambassador" meets with the Archon the General of Armies Adam Steiner is also present and rather than having the meeting in the throne room under the guns of 2 huge griffin class battlemechs it is conducted in private in a small study. Ardan immedietly offers not only his own condolences to the losses that the LAAF but also those of the entire AFFS and First Prince all of whom remember better times when the men and women of the LAAF were their comrades in arms. He assures the two Lyran men that the AFFS is looking for ways to help and that for instance large stockpiles of medical supplies are being sent at no charge or cost to the Arc Royal region by the AFFS. On top of the First Princes's own support of having critically injured soldiers brought to New Avalon for treatment.

General of the Armies Steiner however points out that these condolances could have been sent via HPG and so he asks what exactly the Princes's Champion has came all this way for. In ansewer Ardan Sortek asks if Star Colonel Daryl Radick, the Wolf-in-Exile's ambassador/liason to Tharkad, can be sent for. Once the Clan warrior has arrived Sortek lays out his First Princes's proposals in full. The single largest proposal is that the Federated Suns's is offering to buy the captured CJF Falcon's Nest. Immedietly the 3 men who he is proposing this idea to react with varying degrees of anger to the suggestion. Their respective navies paid in blood and ships to capture the Texas class ship and now the Federated Sun's intends to simply buy it off them? Peter Steiner the most moderate of the 3 explains this is entirely unacceptable. He will not sell the hard won prize for mere C-bills.

Which is when Ardan Sortek asks if he would be prepared to trade it for warships. Sortek points out that both the LAN and W-i-E fleet's suffered heavily in the Battle of Esteros. The Lyran's fleet has been reduced to a single Fox corvette and a lightly damaged Mjolnir battlecruiser, while the Wolves now only have the lightly damaged Werewolf and the transport Full Moon. All of their other ships such as the Implacable and Fylgja are effectively little more than hulks. The Federated Sun's is prepared to pay no fewer than 4 fully operational Fox corvettes for the hulk of a ship that neither the Lyran's nor the Wolves have a hope of returning into operational service within a decade. The Lyran Alliance and the Clan Wolf-in-Exile need ships now, not a single ship in 10 years time.

This does make them all reconsider. However Star Colonel Radick in particular remains of the view that his Khan will not support this. Even if they were to be assigned 2 of the 4 corvettes it would still leave their fleet in a worse position than when they started the campaign and the loss of the Falcon's Nest would be a difficult one to justify to the Warrior Caste.

Sortek then offers that the First Prince might be prepared to make it 5 Fox corvettes and a refit for a single Wolf cruiser at the Federated Sun's shipyards. However he is also authorised to offer a refit of both battlecruisers, but only if the Clan Wolf-in-Exile is prepared to release the 6th Wolf Guards Cluster, the former 6th Jaguar Dragoons to join Clan Sun Jaguar. As well as the corvettes the First Prince is prepared to ensure that all of the ships bring with them full compliments of aerospace fighters and assault dropships - probably A3 Overlords although perhaps a small number of Vengeance carriers can also be released.

At the end of the meeting the Princes's Champion excuses himself to allow the Archon and his advisers to discuss the deal that he has proposed to them in private. He tells them that he will await their decision but does ask as a courtesy that unless they have reached a decision the deal not be made public which they all agree to. The Lyran's and Wolves will spend much of April discussing the Federated Sun's proposal and won't reach a final decision until well into May, by which time Morgan and Phelan Kell have both came to Tharkad to discuss the matter with the Archon personally.

At Antallos's main city of Port Krin Khan Showers of the Sun Jaguars meets with The Jaguar to discuss with him having the bandit caste remnants of the Smoke Jaguars joining the Sun Jaguars. Despite clear indications that many within the group which has travelled from the Home Worlds would wish to join there is a great deal of tension between the 2 groups. The remnants of the Smoke Jaguars clearly feel that they should be afforded a great deal more respect and The Jaguar himself suggests that he believes the Sun Jaguars should reform as the Smoke Jaguars under his own leadership. This matter nearly came to blows before a mutual enemy would appear and unite the 2 halves of the Jaguars in a desperate fight for survival.

In order to keep tensions to a minimum the 2 leaders had agreed to meet on the sixth day of talks with only themselves and a small escort, no more than a star each. This small escort however led to a local pirate group believing that they could overrun the small force and make of with valuable salvage and even Clan omnimechs and so a full 2 and a half companies of battlemechs and nearly a battalion of locally hired infantry "thugs" armed with satchel charges and light arms attack the meeting site without warning. The 2 formations of Jaguars are soon fighting back to back to fend of the attackers and buy time for the rest of the on world Jaguars to rush to their aid.

By the time the rest of the Jaguars manage to break through to their embattled leadership the battle is effectively over. The pirates have been routed and the vast majority of them killed, but amongst the dead Jaguars is Khan Showers. The Khan's Warhawk Prime is a twisted mess propped up only because it is leaning against the back of The Jaguar's own Warhawk. The Khan's omnimech has had it's entire left kneecap totally blasted away which had left it unable to move and was only able to remain upright with the aid of the other machine. However despite having remained upright the lack of mobility had allowed several squads of the pirate infantry to attach breaching charges to the cockpit of the omnimech and kill the pilot. Khan Showers had refused to punch out even as he heard the breaching charges being emplaced, continuing to pour murderously accurate ER PPC into the onrushing pirate Axman battlemech.

Descending from his own battered machine to watch as the Khan's torn body is carried down The Jaguar acknowledges that had the Khan not remained within his machine and destroyed the Axman seconds before he himself was killed it is very likely the hatchet wielding mech would have killed him. In honour of the Khan's sacrifice The Jaguar takes upon his old name of Russou Howell and promises to escort Shower's body back to Valois and present himself to now Khan Tiaret Nevversan and seek admission for himself and his followers to Clan Sun Jaguar. He informs the surviving members of the Golden Keshik and 1st Sun Jaguar Guard that as a giftake he brings with him samples of all of the bloodnamed warriors of Clan Smoke Jaguar as well as key technicians and scientists caste members on his circling warship who can recreate a genetics program. The various Jaguars return to their ships and are soon headed for the Sun Jaguar "capital" on Valois.

The first Dove class dropship arrives at New Avalon and is met by no lesser personage than the First Prince himself. Victor Davion personally salutes every single warrior being carried or helped from the Dropship and elements of his personal guard provide an escort for the wounded soldiers to NAIS. There they will begin treatment at the finest medical centre within the Inner Sphere. Each following Dove that arrives will be given similar honours.

The First Prince also lodges a formal protest at the "massacre" of the ComGuard troops on Menke and promises his full support to Comstar in bringing those responsible to justice. He also invites all ComGuards forces still remaining within the Confederation to withdraw to the Federated Suns where they will be treated with respect. This will also shorten the supply lines for these troops. Although a number will withdraw into the St Ives Compact, where Precentor St Ives has been making a number of military trade deals to obtain the products of the Compact for the ComGuards as a secondary source of weaponry.

On Chesterton the Lorica battle armour plant goes online and is soon shipping out suits to the various ComGuards units within reach. Many of these units were originally deployed in the Confederation and they begin to transition their infantry formations to battle armour formations with the basic armour consisting of Lorica class.

The Sabre line on Islamabad funded by Comstar goes online and soon the versatile fighters are also being shipped to various ComGuards units. Although a small number are also sent to ComGuards warships to add light combat patrol fighters to their aerospace wings.

The Johnston Industries facility on Torrence see's it's first battlemech line go operation with Caeser class battlemechs coming into production there. The heavy class battlemechs are soon appearing in growing numbers throughout the Crucis March and beyond.

With both sides full agreement the New Earth Trading Company plant on Markesan is scheduled for expansions and upgrades. Although new and already expanding once the demand for the products of the facility is far outstripping the supply. As such 5 additional vehicle lines are to be added to the existing build order, with 2 new Von Luckner lines and 2 Alacorn lines taking centre stage and a 2 Karnov lines being added. When the current expansions and this new one are finished the plant will have 5 lines producing each of the Von Luckner and Alacorn tanks as well as 3 Karnov lines and a single engineering vehicle line.

The Federated Sun's Government also begins legal work at reforming the local branch of Star Corp on Crofton. Since the recent legal cases and scandals StarCorp Federated Suns has been effectively operating as an entirely separate legal entity to the parent organisation and the FedSun's Government plans to formalise this in the next few months.

Within the Draconis Combine the news that the DCS Yamato has been launched takes full and centre stage, although the recommissioning of the DCS Togura also is noteworthy. Parades, celebrations and honours are heaped upon the builders and upon the Draconis Combine Admiralty. They are the first Inner Sphere power to commission a full battleship since the fall of the Star League and the nation swells with pride about the achievement.

Unknown to the cheering crowds there are a number of faults remaining within the battleship. Although formally listed as having a speed profile of 3/5 the captain and crew are all very aware that if they push the engines beyond 1.5 G's (3) then they will likely cause structural damage to the ship. Likewise if they jump while travelling at more than 1 G this can lead to catastrophic damage to the ship's spine. Although heavily armoured and with a wide variety of weaponry as well as being more than capable of carrying a full admirals staff if it is to operate as a flagship, the ship finds itself extremely short on cargo. The DCS Yamato will be a deadly vessel in any engagement, but will be forced to remain close either to bases with suitable supplies or rely on extended supply lines to keep it operational. Yet with all these limitations it is a massive achievement and one that is rightly celebrated throughout the entire Combine.

Work immediately begins on a sister ship as well as another yard to allow a third vessel to be ordered. Plan Fuso calls for no less than 8 of these battlewagons to be in commission to give the Combine and House Kurita complete naval superiority on the Federated Sun's front!

Billy Boy Mark II

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #334 on: 10 July 2019, 09:43:03 »
AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name: Yamoto (Battleship)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3061
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2

Mass: 1,400,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 1,118 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,348 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:
8 Heavy N-Gauss
32 Medium NPPC
32 NL35
64 ER PPC
64 ER Large Laser
84 Large Pulse Laser
44 Medium Pulse Laser
112 AMS
24 NAC/30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Yamoto (Battleship)
Mass: 1,400,000 tons

Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 252,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 27) 633,500.00
Lithium Fusion Battery 14,000.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 6) 100.00
Structural Integrity: 123 172,200.00
Total Heat Sinks: 5,728 Double 4,974.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 7,650.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 3,500.00
Fire Control Computers: 44,302.00
Food & Water: (153 days supply) 780.00
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (3,516 total armor pts) 3,444.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 645
Fore-Left/Right: 586/586
Aft-Left/Right: 586/586
Aft: 527

Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (36) with 6 doors 5,400.00
Bay 2: Small Craft (12) with 2 doors 2,400.00
Bay 3: Cargo (1) with 4 doors 3,700.00

DropShip Capacity: 6 Docking Hardpoints 6,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2: (135-meter diameter) 200.00
Grav Deck #3: (110-meter diameter) 100.00
Life Boats: 85 (7 tons each) 595.00
Escape Pods: 85 (7 tons each) 595.00

Crew and Passengers:
90 Officers (86 minimum) 900.00
240 Crew (235 minimum) 1,680.00
160 Gunners (158 minimum) 1,120.00
45 1st Class Passengers 450.00
90 2nd Class Passengers 630.00
120 Steerage Passengers 600.00
60 Marines 300.00
80 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals 560.00
132 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Heavy N-Gauss(200 rounds)Nose 60 60 60 60 36 14,100.00
4 Medium NPPC Nose 36 36 36 36 540 7,200.00
4 NL35 Nose 14 14 14 -- 208 2,800.00
8 ER PPC Nose 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) -- 120 56.00
8 ER Large Laser Nose 6(64) 6(64) 6(64) -- 96 40.00
10 Large Pulse Laser Nose 14(138) 9(90) -- -- 100 70.00
8 Medium Pulse Laser 32 16.00
14 AMS(900 rounds) Nose -- -- -- -- 14 82.00
2 NAC/30(200 rounds) FL/R 60 60 60 -- 400 14,320.00
2 NAC/30(200 rounds) FL/R 60 60 60 -- 400 14,320.00
4 Medium NPPC FL/R 36 36 36 36 1080 14,400.00
4 NL35 FL/R 14 14 14 -- 416 5,600.00
8 ER PPC FL/R 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) -- 240 112.00
8 ER Large Laser FL/R 6(64) 6(64) 6(64) -- 192 80.00
8 Large Pulse Laser FL/R 12(120) 7(72) -- -- 160 112.00
8 Medium Pulse Laser 64 32.00
14 AMS(900 rounds) FL/R -- -- -- -- 28 164.00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)L/RBS 60 60 60 60 72 28,100.00
2 NAC/30(200 rounds) L/RBS 60 60 60 -- 400 14,320.00
2 NAC/30(200 rounds) L/RBS 60 60 60 -- 400 14,320.00
4 Medium NPPC L/RBS 36 36 36 36 1080 14,400.00
4 NL35 L/RBS 14 14 14 -- 416 5,600.00
8 ER PPC L/RBS 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) -- 240 112.00
8 ER Large Laser L/RBS 6(64) 6(64) 6(64) -- 192 80.00
8 Large Pulse Laser L/RBS 11(108) 7(72) -- -- 160 112.00
6 Medium Pulse Laser 48 24.00
14 AMS(900 rounds) L/RBS -- -- -- -- 28 164.00
2 NAC/30(200 rounds) AL/R 60 60 60 -- 400 14,320.00
2 NAC/30(200 rounds) AL/R 60 60 60 -- 400 14,320.00
4 Medium NPPC AL/R 36 36 36 36 1080 14,400.00
4 NL35 AL/R 14 14 14 -- 416 5,600.00
8 ER PPC AL/R 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) -- 240 112.00
8 ER Large Laser AL/R 6(64) 6(64) 6(64) -- 192 80.00
8 Large Pulse Laser AL/R 14(144)14(144) -- -- 160 112.00
8 Large Pulse Laser 160 112.00
14 AMS(900 rounds) AL/R -- -- -- -- 28 164.00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(200 rounds)Aft 60 60 60 60 36 14,100.00
4 Medium NPPC Aft 36 36 36 36 540 7,200.00
4 NL35 Aft 14 14 14 -- 208 2,800.00
8 ER PPC Aft 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) -- 120 56.00
8 ER Large Laser Aft 6(64) 6(64) 6(64) -- 96 40.00
10 Large Pulse Laser Aft 14(138) 9(90) -- -- 100 70.00
8 Medium Pulse Laser 32 16.00
14 AMS(900 rounds) Aft -- -- -- -- 14 82.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%) 14,000.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 11,384 1,400,000.00
Tons Left: .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 22,194,962,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 320,221
Cost per BV: 69,311.39
Weapon Value: 205,690 (Ratio = .64)
Damage Factors: SRV = 14,851; MRV = 13,992; LRV = 10,142; ERV = 3,839
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 958,057
(191,581 Structure, 366,200 Life Support, 400,276 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 578,450 (60% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable


((OOC This ship has been kindly designed for my by Kioras on Alternate History! Thank you very much for this good sir! :D)

cawest

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #335 on: 10 July 2019, 20:30:05 »
5 foxes and 25 dropships.  and they might be Overlords A3?  that is a lot of firepower.  I do like the trade of repairing two BC for the Sun Jags to get a cluster

snakespinner

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #336 on: 11 July 2019, 01:53:44 »
8 Yamato's, that is a lot.
If I was the Peter Steiner or the Khan of the Wolves I would be asking for priority rights to purchase more Foxes from the FS shipyards.
I wonder how a Texas would go against a Yamato. :thumbsup:
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Iron Grenadier

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #337 on: 11 July 2019, 02:45:22 »
Where is the Overlord A3 built in FedSun space? I thought it was just built by Shipil which would be in the Lyran space. Galax builds the regular Overlord. The only assault dropship I can think of built in FedSun space is the Avenger. I know stuff has been added in this timeline but I don't recall the Overlord A3 being one of them.


When did the Exile Wolved start the Isegrim? Didn't they need the help of the Crusader Wolves? Maybe FedSun can help with that project.


Speaking of dropships, maybe the FedSun could bring back the CargoMaster & CargoKing classes at Galax?

Billy Boy Mark II

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #338 on: 11 July 2019, 16:13:59 »
5 foxes and 25 dropships.  and they might be Overlords A3?  that is a lot of firepower.  I do like the trade of repairing two BC for the Sun Jags to get a cluster

Frankly the Lyrans actually need more hulls than firepower. Single large vessels they either have, repairable or building. But small hulls that can patrol, be in multiple places - that they are coming up short in. 5 Foxes (even if 2 of them are Wolf and on the JF border) is a HUGE boost to them.

2 large battlecruisers for 1 very questionable cluster. Seems fair to me.

8 Yamato's, that is a lot.
If I was the Peter Steiner or the Khan of the Wolves I would be asking for priority rights to purchase more Foxes from the FS shipyards.
I wonder how a Texas would go against a Yamato. :thumbsup:

That is the ideal for Plan Fuso. Not to say they will GET to the ideal.

Yeah that might end up a very very lucrative deal for the FS in time! :p

Who said anything about the shattered hull of the Falcon's Nest being rebuilt as a Texas? ;)

Where is the Overlord A3 built in FedSun space? I thought it was just built by Shipil which would be in the Lyran space. Galax builds the regular Overlord. The only assault dropship I can think of built in FedSun space is the Avenger. I know stuff has been added in this timeline but I don't recall the Overlord A3 being one of them.


When did the Exile Wolved start the Isegrim? Didn't they need the help of the Crusader Wolves? Maybe FedSun can help with that project.


Speaking of dropships, maybe the FedSun could bring back the CargoMaster & CargoKing classes at Galax?

Overlords are listed as being built by FedBoeing and given that the FedCom/FedSuns are known to have had them I figured they were built at the Galax yards. Not seeing them listed though. Huh. Dammit.

The Isegram came about via the Jihad. So not even started yet.

I like the idea of Cargomasters and Cargokings... :D

Iron Grenadier

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #339 on: 11 July 2019, 23:31:41 »
So an easy fix I think -

For the Texas-class warship, design specs for the Overlord A3 from Shipil and the 6th Jaguar Dragoons, the FedSuns will offer the following -

5 Fox-class warships
5 Vengeance-class dropships
Provide funding for 20 Overlord A3's to be built by Shipil
Provide funding for the purchase of aerospace fighters to fill the cubicles for all the above
Refit two WiE battlecruisers

This will help boost Lyran production and save the Lyran's some money they can use elsewhere. Actually I would probably boost the production of pocket warships if I were Peter Davion.

kioras

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Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
« Reply #340 on: 12 July 2019, 01:04:30 »
    8 Yamato's, that is a lot.
    If I was the Peter Steiner or the Khan of the Wolves I would be asking for priority rights to purchase more Foxes from the FS shipyards.
    I wonder how a Texas would go against a Yamato. :thumbsup:

    Well a Clan or Star League Texas would be run over by a Yamato. 

    • The Yamato has 90% more armor then the Texas. 
    • The Texas is badly undergunned.  The total broadside weaponry does 54/54/54/54 damage, the Nose arc does the most at 108/108/68/68. 
    • The Texas also relies on some AR-10 launchers that have shallow ammo reserves.  Unless each one is nuclear tipped the few leakers would be laughed off by the Yamato's armor.
    • The Yamato total broadside armament is 520/520/520/132.  The Fore and Aft armament is rated at 130/130/130/96
    • The moment that the Yamato turns it's broadsides at the Texas, depending on the rage it could shatter it in a few rounds.
    • They both have about the same Dropship, small craft and Fighter compliment so it is a wash, except that the Yamato has significant close range normal scale weapons for engaging Aerospace Fighters and small craft.

    It would be as if a pre-dreadnaught battleship fought a mid 1930's design.

    As currently designed the only ship that could out slug it is the Leviathan class dreadnought in it's Warship configuration.  Due to issues a 2x1 numbers advantage would probably be the way the Combine military planners want to field.  It should win with corrected ships in a 3x2 advantage or 5x3 though.

    A McKenna might be able to kite it with better crew handling however the moment they close the range the Yamato's much heavier armor and broadside armament will rip it apart.

    Even the more 'modern' Clan Nightlord battleship would have the same issue.

    A rebuilt from the ground up Texas would do well for the Suns, as the Yamato is likely to be a bit tougher (within 25%) tougher but the new Texas may have a better long range throw distance, allowing a superior crew to come out ahead.  The margin would be very close.

    Besides as the Yamato's are being built sequentially they are likely to fix problems with each iteration.  I would expect that the last 4 would fix all the issues and be slightly tougher with more cargo for longer legs.

    Actually I would probably boost the production of pocket warships if I were Peter Davion.

    Pocket Warships are largely a trap and dead end design wise if the fleet has a good selection of Destroyers with armor and weapons to pop them without getting sub-capital weapons.  NAC/30 are deadly to most Dropship designs, 1 shot 1 kill.  They would do well in a screen with destroyers, or as a joint attack force however deploying them alone or without Destroyer or Cruiser support is begging to get them popped.

    Missiles are good, however the more AMS you have the less effective they are and you will have to rely on nuclear munitions.  No one yet in this time line has brought out nuclear weapons even in space so Pocket Warships are going to be a real waste.[/list]
    « Last Edit: 12 July 2019, 01:07:52 by kioras »

    hpackrat

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #341 on: 12 July 2019, 01:29:08 »
    Perhaps use Pocket Warships to guard Periphery & similar low priority areas? They're good for anti-piracy & picket deployments after all. Keep the true warships on the frontlines, heartlands & industrial areas of a realm.

    kioras

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #342 on: 12 July 2019, 13:56:50 »
    Perhaps use Pocket Warships to guard Periphery & similar low priority areas? They're good for anti-piracy & picket deployments after all. Keep the true warships on the frontlines, heartlands & industrial areas of a realm.

    Yeah, use them as Coast Guard cutters, patrol vessels and customs ships works fine.  Using them in large dwet actions means risking the whole crew.  They could possibly engage small warships like the Fox and other Corvetes well enough.

    The real issue is that you need new ships built from the ground up to use in fleet actions, not these conversions.  Ideally you would have over 400 standard scale armor a facing and that means newer ship designs.

    It is still a poor trade using them in large fleet actions.  You are better off using them either as carriers for more fighters or to expand the fleets support element.

    With missiles they are a lot like the early Torpedo boats, before they switched to wooden fast boats which has a probelm in that the powers have cracked destroyers.

    marauder648

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #343 on: 12 July 2019, 13:58:23 »
    Lets not forget that the basic 3057 designs for canon WarShips are pretty much terrible too. A fan design can easily improve upon them. But that aside, great writing and great update!
    Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

    Billy Boy Mark II

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #344 on: 12 July 2019, 17:23:32 »
    So an easy fix I think -

    For the Texas-class warship, design specs for the Overlord A3 from Shipil and the 6th Jaguar Dragoons, the FedSuns will offer the following -

    5 Fox-class warships
    5 Vengeance-class dropships
    Provide funding for 20 Overlord A3's to be built by Shipil
    Provide funding for the purchase of aerospace fighters to fill the cubicles for all the above
    Refit two WiE battlecruisers

    This will help boost Lyran production and save the Lyran's some money they can use elsewhere. Actually I would probably boost the production of pocket warships if I were Peter Davion.


    Hmmm that is something I'll think about redoing. Although it's Peter Steiner. :D

      Well a Clan or Star League Texas would be run over by a Yamato. 

      • The Yamato has 90% more armor then the Texas. 
      • The Texas is badly undergunned.  The total broadside weaponry does 54/54/54/54 damage, the Nose arc does the most at 108/108/68/68. 
      • The Texas also relies on some AR-10 launchers that have shallow ammo reserves.  Unless each one is nuclear tipped the few leakers would be laughed off by the Yamato's armor.
      • The Yamato total broadside armament is 520/520/520/132.  The Fore and Aft armament is rated at 130/130/130/96
      • The moment that the Yamato turns it's broadsides at the Texas, depending on the rage it could shatter it in a few rounds.
      • They both have about the same Dropship, small craft and Fighter compliment so it is a wash, except that the Yamato has significant close range normal scale weapons for engaging Aerospace Fighters and small craft.

      It would be as if a pre-dreadnaught battleship fought a mid 1930's design.

      As currently designed the only ship that could out slug it is the Leviathan class dreadnought in it's Warship configuration.  Due to issues a 2x1 numbers advantage would probably be the way the Combine military planners want to field.  It should win with corrected ships in a 3x2 advantage or 5x3 though.

      A McKenna might be able to kite it with better crew handling however the moment they close the range the Yamato's much heavier armor and broadside armament will rip it apart.

      Even the more 'modern' Clan Nightlord battleship would have the same issue.

      A rebuilt from the ground up Texas would do well for the Suns, as the Yamato is likely to be a bit tougher (within 25%) tougher but the new Texas may have a better long range throw distance, allowing a superior crew to come out ahead.  The margin would be very close.

      Besides as the Yamato's are being built sequentially they are likely to fix problems with each iteration.  I would expect that the last 4 would fix all the issues and be slightly tougher with more cargo for longer legs.

      Pocket Warships are largely a trap and dead end design wise if the fleet has a good selection of Destroyers with armor and weapons to pop them without getting sub-capital weapons.  NAC/30 are deadly to most Dropship designs, 1 shot 1 kill.  They would do well in a screen with destroyers, or as a joint attack force however deploying them alone or without Destroyer or Cruiser support is begging to get them popped.

      Missiles are good, however the more AMS you have the less effective they are and you will have to rely on nuclear munitions.  No one yet in this time line has brought out nuclear weapons even in space so Pocket Warships are going to be a real waste.

    The Yamato is a brutal beast for SLDF type battleships. Still the FS have a plan... ;)

    Perhaps use Pocket Warships to guard Periphery & similar low priority areas? They're good for anti-piracy & picket deployments after all. Keep the true warships on the frontlines, heartlands & industrial areas of a realm.

    Against anything other than a warship a pocket warship will crush them. So good against pirates, raiding dropships, etc... They can smash them. So you'll see them being sent to patrol lower priority areas as more warships come around or being used to "boost" existing warships.

    Yeah, use them as Coast Guard cutters, patrol vessels and customs ships works fine.  Using them in large dwet actions means risking the whole crew.  They could possibly engage small warships like the Fox and other Corvetes well enough.

    The real issue is that you need new ships built from the ground up to use in fleet actions, not these conversions.  Ideally you would have over 400 standard scale armor a facing and that means newer ship designs.

    It is still a poor trade using them in large fleet actions.  You are better off using them either as carriers for more fighters or to expand the fleets support element.

    With missiles they are a lot like the early Torpedo boats, before they switched to wooden fast boats which has a probelm in that the powers have cracked destroyers.

    If pocket warships come up against a cruiser or  battleship they are pretty much toast. But a Fox can carry 4 of them an a vengeance and that gives it a major boost. even more if there are 3-4 Fox's deploying together. That gives the large number of dropships as a major force multiplier who can inflict damage at long range with their missiles.

    Their only chance in a major fleet action is to hope that the bigger ships are too busy fighting each other. If a single heavy ship starts hunting htem they are dead.

    Lets not forget that the basic 3057 designs for canon WarShips are pretty much terrible too. A fan design can easily improve upon them. But that aside, great writing and great update!

    True the canon designs are pretty rough, I think the only 2 ones I'm relatively happy with are the Luxor and Avalon!

    Thank you for the compliments! :D

    Seydlitz

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #345 on: 13 July 2019, 03:54:49 »
    I'm rather partial to the Farragut-class battleship myself. A revamped version would probably work very well. It's armor and maneuverability are on par with the McKenna already, beats both it and the Texas in the anti-fighter defense area while it's main armament is a solid blend of energy/ballistic weaponry.
    Upgrade the heatsinks to doubles, reduce the excessive cargo capacity, add a LF Battery system, swap out the forty LL for a 20/20 split of ER PPCs and LPLs interspersed with a couple Gauss Rifles and a LB20X AC as well as multiple AMS units in each firing arc for a layered defense against Dropships, fighters and Capital missiles. Use of Capital missiles should be kept to a minimum, personally I find them to be of dubious value in the post FedCom Civil War/Jihad Era unless they're are nuclear tipped but even that's not a sure thing given the proliferation of anti-missle defense Naval doctrine in this time period. Freeing up most of that ridiculous cargo capacity should be allocated to perhaps a couple of extra dropship collars, and expanded fighter wing(36 is good but 54 would be better), an expanded marine contingent specifically BA Marines, lastly and most importantly supplement the HNGRs, NAC40s, and HNPPCs with some lighter versions of these same weapons that reach into the Long and Extreme range brackets NAC30s and MNPPCs would be a suitable option. Any remaining mass should be allocated to additional armor.
    I picture this as a Davion variant with emphasis(given the FedSuns love of all things AC)on long range fire and fighter strikes to wear down an opposing capital ship's armor before moving in close to release devastating broadsides from it's Heavy NACs to finish off it's foe.
    « Last Edit: 13 July 2019, 03:57:44 by Seydlitz »

    Chris OFarrell

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #346 on: 13 July 2019, 09:15:28 »
    Pft, who needs a Battleship?

    Nukes + Aerospace = dead FAR cheaper in every aspect. Presuming you want to open that can of worms of course. Unless you buy into absolute game mechanics around AMS as holy writ - and even the Ghost Bear 'We are NOT compensating for something damnit!' still die if you hit it with even one or two relatively lightweight nukes.

    In any event, the Federated Suns must not and cannot be pressured by the DCAs actions here. They are doing an exceptional job of building up a navy including the logistics, infrastructure, training and personnel depth AND the shipyards to support them. They had a lot more shipbuilding experience then anyone else in the Inner Sphere by now as well. The Combine are going into White Elephant territory here and making a critical strategic mistake building these things. Its so typical of the Combine. They for various reasons can't swallow their pride and take the longer path, no they must NOT loose face, we need big powerful ships NOW NOW NOW! Which means all the first wave of ships will probably be massive stones around their necks, nightmares that suck in money like black holes and even with the best will in the world, are not something you'd want to take into combat unless you had no other choice....

    Anyway. If the Federated Suns DOES feel they need a counter, I'd honestly just have Ardan ask Peter if he's willing to swap licenses. The Lyrans get the right to build the Avalon class, the Davions get the right to build the Mjolnir class. Both cover a gap in their TO&E and a Mjolnir should be more than a match as a hard counter for even an operational Yamatto, rather than a joke. Offer Peter a couple of New Avalons off his production lines (the Lyrans pay, at cost of course) and I'm sure he'd be happy enough. And the Mjolnir is a battle proven design.

    Simple! Honestly, I suspect the whole 'take a completely wrecked Texas and rebuild it' is a painfully thin face saving cover for Victor to be able to help the Lyrans who are in a bad strategic state, warship wise. For all his washing his hands of them, I'd be surprised if he doesn't honestly still feel, especially as they are facing the Clans on their own now, that the Suns should stand by them as they are shielding the Inner Sphere from the Clans (given his Clan centric focus and such). Plus, it makes plenty of strategic sense to, even if the FedCom is dead, work to keep the Lyrans as a strong or at least solid ally, that strategic logic hasn't changed since 3025 (if anything its even MORE strong now). God knows its probably going to be cheaper to simply build a new battleship from the ground up rather than drag a wreck down the Terran corridor to Galax to be rebuilt...


    -Just read through all of this, have to say I'm enjoying it :)
    « Last Edit: 13 July 2019, 09:35:02 by Chris OFarrell »
    "I, the Baron of Strang, care not for your new names. Clans? Jade Falcons? I call you by your true name: Scum of the Star League, traitors of free will, persecutors of the Periphery come back to lord it over freedom-loving people. Come ahead, you steel-eyed robots! Come ahead and taste what a million like-minded people think of you and your damn Clans!"

    -Baron Stepan Von Strang

    paulobrito

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #347 on: 13 July 2019, 09:32:40 »
    Warships for me - a big carrier - like the New Syrtis - with some decent escorts. If said escorts are Fox (each with 5 dropships) and half the dropships are assault the other half pocket warships and CV's to augment the big carrier ASF's, you get a terrifying force.
    If you need something extra, just add an Avalon cruiser to the escort and you get force any battleship run away in fear.

    Billy Boy Mark II

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #348 on: 13 July 2019, 12:48:18 »
    3066 - May - A deal reached

    The discussions began in April between the Princes's Champion and the Archon and his various advisers continued into May. Khan Kell himself arrived on Tharkad along with his father the Grand Duke of Arc Royal and joined the negotiations. By the 6th of May Ardan Sortek was confident that the tide had turned and that the Lyran's and their Wolf allies were going to approve the transfer of the CJF Falcon's Nest to the Federated Sun's. What remained in doubt however was the cost. The Archon was clearly eager to get the largest return for the sale of the shattered battleship as possible, while Khan Kell was proving that perhaps that Wolf Clan had erred in making him a warrior - they perhaps should have placed him within the Merchant Caste! Either that or his initial upbringing as the son of a famed mercenary leader was showing through, although Sortek suspected that he might be getting clandestine support from his father at the very least. Some of the points he was making seemed a little to subtle for the famously blunt warrior.

    However despite the difficulties and tempers flaring on occasion a deal was finally worked out on the 16th of May. The Lyran Alliance and Clan Wolf-in-Exile would transfer ownership of the CJF Falcon's Nest to the Federated Suns. In return the Federated Sun's would lay down 5 Fox corvettes in the coming year - 3 of them to be delivered to the Lyran Alliance and 2 too the Wolves. Each Fox would be outfitted with a full compliment of dropships and fighters as well as full ammunition lockers and spare parts. An additional Monolith jumpship would also be gifted to the Lyran Alliance carrying a full compliment of Mule class dropships with additional spare parts - to be divided between the Lyran's and Wolves at a 3:2 ratio. The Federated Sun's would also license to the Arc Royal MechWorks the Dagger-O omnifighter design to be produced on Arc Royal - no more than 2 lines could be constructed and the production could only be used by the Kell Hounds (which also included any Arc Royal based Home Defence Squadrons) and Wolves-in-Exile and not sold on to third parties, which was to include the Lyran Alliance. In return Arc Royal MechWork's would construct an annex to their Federated Sun's Killarney plant the Arctic Fox omnimech, with 2 lines being constructed and only to be sold to the AFFS. The Clan Wolf-in-Exile Implacable will also be repaired and refitted at Panpour in return for the CJF Falcon's Nest.

    Ardan Sortek also had to agree to offer for sale to both the Lyran Alliance and Wolves-in-Exile at least 2 further Fox corvettes (each) within the next 3 years. The Princes's Champion agreed that the new yard building at Filtvelt which was due to be finished in the coming January would lay down 2 Fox corvettes that would be offered for sale to the Lyran Alliance and Clan Wolf-in-Exile. These however would not be gifts, but would have to be purchased at full market price. Privately Ardan Sortek had promised both Archon Steiner and Khan Kell that he would suggest to the First Prince that these yards continue to sell warships to them as away not only of strengthening allies but also a source of funds.

    With regards the fate of the 6th Wolf Guard's Cluster the Khan is less than thrilled with the deal on offer. However he currently has a major shortage of warships and while he can potentially form new clusters of troops from either freebirth warriors or graduating trueborn and the production of his factories on Arc Royal he has no realistic prospect of new warships except from either the Lyrans or Davions. As such he agrees to allow the transfer of the former 6th Jaguar Dragoons to the new Clan Sun Jaguar in return for the refit of the Implacable and no less than a full cluster of military equipment from the Federated Suns. The 45 battlemechs and 30 fighters are all to be omni's and he intends to use them to form a new 2nd line cluster.

    Ardan Sortek also takes this opportunity to return to the Lyran Alliance the colours and insignia of the 10th Lyran Guards RCT. The former 10th Lyran Guards, now the 1st Revenant Guards had asked him to carry with him their former colours in order to return them to their former parent realm in the hope of healing any lingering resentment for their decision to remain within the Federated Suns. These are gratefully accepted by the Archon who instructs his General of Armies to begin preparations to reform this storied unit.

    Within the Federated Sun's the Department of Military Intelligence receives some disturbing and at the current time totally unsubstantiated reports from agents left behind on Highspire to keep an eye on Kali's lunatic cult. Near the site of the former underground temples which were destroyed in the 1st and 2nd FSAC's raid in 3065 the Thugee's are conducting major excavations. That was to be expected, however one report in particular is immedietly flagged up for concern. It would seem that a large number of the workers at one of the dig sites all mysteriously died within a few minutes in late April. Further work has been continued but the workers have been seen to be wearing hazmat suits and using specialist equipment. Confirmation is immedietly sought.

    While sitting and reading the FWLM after action report from the Free World's Guards attack on their treacherous 3rd Guards First Prince Victor has an idea. The next day he invites his Marshal of Armies Jackson Davion to a "working lunch" within the newly completed Highspire Room at the palace. There he lays out his proposal to his most senior officer and asks what he thinks about it. Jackson Davion after some consideration agrees that the idea very well might work and asks permission to run it by a number of officers - such as Marshal Bishop Sortek, Marshal Stephen Cooper and Marshal Jon Davion. If they like the idea then it would almost certainly be a success. Victor agrees and having been reminded of the fact that the head of his Brigade of Guard's is still a "mere" Marshal informs the Marshal of Armies to rectify this in the next promotions list. While he knows the increased rank is unlikely to actually matter that much to Bishop, he is keen to honour the man who is the very embodiment of the Davion Guards.

    The First Prince also instructs Fleet Admiral Buchwald on the matter of ranks within the Federated Sun's Navy. The current top heavy nature of the rank structure is to be redone, the First Prince finds it somewhat ridiculous that an individual Fox corvette has within it's command staff no fewer than 2 flag officers. Particularly with the growing size of the warship fleet this is unsustainable and he requests that the Fleet Admiral look into restructuring it into a more practical set up by the end of the year and have a proposal for him within the month.

    The former StarCorp plant on Crofton is re-branded as the SunCorp Industries company. Some licenses fees are exchanged between the new company and it's former StarCorp associates but for all intents and purposes the new company is entirely independent of StarCorp. StarCorp is still sueing the FedSun's Government and the First Prince in the hopes of getting the plant returned to them, but given the huge weight of evidence of corporate malfeasance, corruption and aiding foreign powers this case is going nowhere fast. The factory currently has 2 Warhammer lines, a Thanatos line, a Longbow line and Emperor line as well as having 3 additional lines producing the Black Hawk-KU, Avatar and Sunder omnimechs under license. With the new formation of SunCorp there is an announcement that the Thanatos battlemech is to be upgraded to it's original omnimech specifications by December 3066. A second line for this new omnimech is to be constructed as well. The AFFS is also considering putting the Highlander and King Crab battlemech's into production here.

    On Outreach Colonel Maeve Wolf instructs the teams who built the Falcon IIC line out of salvage to begin laying the groundwork for an expansion of the very limited production. She wishes them to look at the Gallowglas WD, Imp C and Marauder II C designs to see which would be the easiest for them to put into production. Although the technicians point out that a non-Clantech design would be much easier to restart production off the Colonel insists on quality above quantity. It will be years, perhaps decades before the Wolf's Dragoons can regrow their ranks to their former size, but when they do she wishes them to continue to be equipped with the best weapons available. Which means Clantech. Also given their new status within the FedSun's Clantech battlemechs are almost certainly going to be much in demand from the AFFS which will provide funds to continue rebuilding.

    The ComGuards receive another boost to their aerospace numbers when the Sabre line on Batavia goes online. The light fighter is now being produced by 2 separate plants for Comstar and is being bought up as quickly as it can be produced. Although not a famous and historically significant fighter the well regarded fighter's speed and manoeuvrability make it a welcome addition to the ComGuards fighter wings.

    On the capital world of New Avalon Corean Industries activated a new Centurion battlemech line. As ever with this incredibly popular "Davion" battlemech the line's full production capacity is bought out for several years in advance by the AFFS. So much so that Corean is considering further expansions.

    New Independence Weaponry, knowing that the Duke of Robinson is interested in adding Gunslinger production within the Draconis March steal a march upon the Duke's own Robinson Standard BattleWorks and announces they will be adding a Gunslinger line to their plant on Alta Vista. While mildly irritated by this Duke James Sandoval decides to see this as an opportunity to simply matters. With Gunslinger battlemechs soon to be in production within his March at Alta Vista he petitions the First Prince to grant Robinson Standard BattleWorks a license to produce the Battlemaster battlemech design. This will be granted in June.

    In the Free Worlds League the Supreme Leader of the Tikonov Province begins to plot and involves a number of WOB sympathising SAFE agents in his plans along with a handful of his own people. The 2nd and 3rd Tikonov Republican Guards begins preparations in case the plot comes to fruition.

    kioras

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #349 on: 13 July 2019, 15:55:53 »
    Pft, who needs a Battleship?

    Nukes + Aerospace = dead FAR cheaper in every aspect. Presuming you want to open that can of worms of course. Unless you buy into absolute game mechanics around AMS as holy writ - and even the Ghost Bear 'We are NOT compensating for something damnit!' still die if you hit it with even one or two relatively lightweight nukes.

    In any event, the Federated Suns must not and cannot be pressured by the DCAs actions here. They are doing an exceptional job of building up a navy including the logistics, infrastructure, training and personnel depth AND the shipyards to support them. They had a lot more shipbuilding experience then anyone else in the Inner Sphere by now as well. The Combine are going into White Elephant territory here and making a critical strategic mistake building these things. Its so typical of the Combine. They for various reasons can't swallow their pride and take the longer path, no they must NOT loose face, we need big powerful ships NOW NOW NOW! Which means all the first wave of ships will probably be massive stones around their necks, nightmares that suck in money like black holes and even with the best will in the world, are not something you'd want to take into combat unless you had no other choice....

    Well the Fed Suns currently have quite a few designs currently being built, Davion Destroyers and Congress cruisers, both of them do well to round out the fleet along with the New Syrtis Carriers.

    Fighters are amazingly fragile and there are several weapons that warships have to reduce their threat.  Large missile batteries can rip into fighters on the way towards the capital craft while good normal scale weapons car target nuclear missiles also.  That also means fighting through the CAP to launch the strikes along with probably having to waste nuclear attacks to help clear the way.

    The other thing is that in story no one has used nuclear weapons and no one will do so until someone else such as the Word of Blake does so first.  Without nuclear weapons warships have a near decisive advantage over Assault Dropships and Fighters, you need to bring rather large forces to break through especially against the better non Clan designs.  A properly designed force is likely to bleed any attempts by the fighters to get close without overwhelming numbers.

    You can use missiles however the larger ships will of coarse carry enough AMS to require either very dense salvo's or a lot of luck to get through and delivery damage.  No one has yet to reintroduce Sub-Capital weapons either, I can see the Lyrans digging through the achieves to bring them back, they need space combat ability with both the Wolf and Falcon threats.

    I personally feel that there is a need for new Dropship Carriers, the Vengeance is less than an Escort Carrier and more of a Fighter Bus with almost no cargo for repairs and rearmament.  64 tons of cargo total for 40 fighters.  Not good for long term space operations.  You have 1 engagement and then you will use all the cargo to repair if you are lucky.  You then either need to cycle them through the Warship bays in the fleet or else land and bring your attached Mule carrying supplies.

    The ship is also amazingly fragile and underarmed.  A single flight or wing of craft has a good chance of forcing to to surrender and a few assault small craft can easily force their way in and take over the vessel.

    A Titan carries almost 1050 tons of cargo for the 30 fighters it carries, is 60% tougher along with have decent weaponry so it is not completely helpless.  The Sun Jaguar's may have the designs to the Miraborg carrier also as they did design it in Clan space.  30 Fighters, 900 tons of cargo and still 40% tougher then the Vengeance.

    Battleships are straight out shock units.  You choose a place that the enemy must defend and then force you way there, shattering the fleet.  That might be a district capital, significant manufacturing or a fleet base.

    The Combine will also likely take almost 2 decades to get plan Fuso completely finished and who knows what will change in that time.

    paulobrito

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #350 on: 13 July 2019, 16:05:45 »
    In my story i use Arrow IV AAM (3072) and AShM (3071) with the ASF's to do a lot of damage to the opposite force. And the SAM  (3066) variant to help the warship / dropship defense. Not forgetting the ECM / ECCM / ESM (aka the EW side) to do a bit of 'modern take' in that front. Me - i put then in service a lot early, because i have an SI that is a 'bit' focused in the ASF pro and against capabilities.

    Chris OFarrell

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #351 on: 13 July 2019, 18:11:28 »
    Well the Fed Suns currently have quite a few designs currently being built, Davion Destroyers and Congress cruisers, both of them do well to round out the fleet along with the New Syrtis Carriers.


    I'm pretty sure the Congress Cruisers are being built more as independent patrol units for commerce protection (something badly needed but often ignored in Btech) in the rear areas. The improved Davions work quite well with the Fox + Avalon + New Sytris formations mind you, assuming you can have them in the right ratios, for a very nicely balanced, flexible and powerful fleet unit.

    Quote

    Fighters are amazingly fragile and there are several weapons that warships have to reduce their threat.  Large missile batteries can rip into fighters on the way towards the capital craft while good normal scale weapons car target nuclear missiles also.  That also means fighting through the CAP to launch the strikes along with probably having to waste nuclear attacks to help clear the way.


    Honestly, when I've gamed it out, its been pretty much 100% impossible to stop a properly formatted strike package (as the Inner Sphere discovered when the Warships got obliterated during the first two Succession Wars for that matter exactly this way). Warships are far too much glass hammers; you only need ONE hit as a rule of thumb to kill them - even the Leviathan needs a lot of luck to be able to survive nuclear ordinance. Fighters not THAT fragile; they are flying tanks. You can't simply point an ERPPC at one and say 'die!' - by the time you reach the range of anti-fighter weapons, you're pretty much already in nuclear strike range. And even if the fighters hold off firing until point blank (to logically give the AMS belts zero reaction time to deal with it) you have to try and take down the flying tanks INCREDIBLY quickly, which just doesn't happen. Especially when the fighter strike can (and should) concentrate on a single threat axis, meaning most of the warships guns are unable to be brought to bear. Not to mention headaches defensibly if your opponent is also laying down their own covering fire with long range capital missile strikes either to open a gap (through kills or evasive maneuvering) in the enemy fighter screen, or, directly targeting nukes on the enemy warship too...

    Capital missiles have their own problems being used in anti-fighter fights - partially around baiting fire and the difficulty of hitting until you get close and the sheer absurd number of missiles you have to put into the sky to really grind down a heavy strike - missile magazines are not unlimited after all. You might survive one strike only to not survive the next one in those situations.

    I've played these scenarios out only a couple of times I'll admit, but every time we did even if it took 30-40 aerospace fighter losses, the fighters broke through the screening enemy dropships and fighters and last ditch defensive firepower to nuke the enemy warships. Granted you have to be a bit cold hearted to send pilots to die, but you can also do things to improve their chances (like small craft gunships with EW support + heavy AMS to escort the strike packages, developing improved EW gear systems like the Dragons Breath used to format your strikes and so on, but thats probably getting out of scope).

    Quote

    The other thing is that in story no one has used nuclear weapons and no one will do so until someone else such as the Word of Blake does so first. 


    Uh, they did. They nuked the crap out of several ComStar warships trying to escape from the Case-White like ambush. There is nothing magical about using nuclear weapons in space against enemy warships. If Peter had gone in hard that way, the Falcons warships would have been obliterated and his ground forces would have mopped up everything on the ground cleanly, sending a message best described as '****** off and die' to the rest of the Clans about how the Lyrans are going to treat this kind of 'yay, lets play a new round of attack the Lyrans!' going forward.

    Quote

    Without nuclear weapons warships have a near decisive advantage over Assault Dropships and Fighters, you need to bring rather large forces to break through especially against the better non Clan designs.  A properly designed force is likely to bleed any attempts by the fighters to get close without overwhelming numbers.


    Yes, but I'm clearly predicating my tactics on the assumption of having nukes. If the Combine is bringing its warships into play, gloves come off. Plus, you don't need to simply charge at the warships and disregard losses, if you bring along carriers then you'll have the reserves and numbers of aerospace units to clear the way through the escorting dropships. Plus supporting fire from your own light warships if you want to play things that way.

    Quote

    You can use missiles however the larger ships will of coarse carry enough AMS to require either very dense salvo's or a lot of luck to get through and delivery damage.  No one has yet to reintroduce Sub-Capital weapons either, I can see the Lyrans digging through the achieves to bring them back, they need space combat ability with both the Wolf and Falcon threats.


    Build better missiles is the blunt answer. No-one in Battletech ever seems to think of that though. But you'd only in my scenario use missiles to target screening craft and enemy aerospace fighter concentrations, not the enemy warships. Either destroy them outright, or force them to scatter and evade, opening the way for your strike package to sweep through. Subcapital weapons have their uses, but honestly, dealing with enemy heavies is NOT what they should be used for.

    Quote

    I personally feel that there is a need for new Dropship Carriers, the Vengeance is less than an Escort Carrier and more of a Fighter Bus with almost no cargo for repairs and rearmament.  64 tons of cargo total for 40 fighters.  Not good for long term space operations.  You have 1 engagement and then you will use all the cargo to repair if you are lucky.  You then either need to cycle them through the Warship bays in the fleet or else land and bring your attached Mule carrying supplies.


    Honestly I prefer carriers rather than dropship carriers, simply because the dropships are too soft a target. With that said, the Vengeance is definitely a fighter replacement carrier, or, at least needs to be docked to an SLDF warship with their massive cargo bays to support operations directly (as a parasite to historical SLDF ships that had limited or no fighter capacity it makes perfect sense; its a bolt-on launch bay that can directly resupply from the warships own cargo hold).

    Carrier dropships for fleet actions IMO have to make too many compromises. The Titan has too few fighters, the Vengaance can't fight or support its fighters, Union and Leopard CVs are fine for the 3rd succession war, not for the clan war.

    The best niche for a carrier dropship in the AFFS is probably an RCT fighter carrier. Capable of holding one wing of fighters, so two of these carriers are assigned to each RCT. Big enough to hold the fighters and support them through sustained operations, tough enough to take on assault ships directly and win. The Navy OTOH are better off spending their dropship slots on pocket warships and assault ships (and even then, looking to the next generation of them).

    ---

    Anyway, on the latest chapter, man Peter is sounding sulky for someone who is getting an absurd bargin. He is giving up a wrecked Battleship he cannot repair or put back into service ... for three fully loaded Corvettes with dropships and fighters, two more in the pipeline he has to pay for (and one thing the Lyrans are not short of is cash) plus options on buying as many more as he needs going forward. Clan Wolf are getting one of their warships fully repaired, two new Corvettes fully loaded, new omnifighter lines and all THEY are paying is a cluster of troops who can be replaced with Wolves soon enough. And just the troops; he's not even loosing equipment as Victor is replacing that!

    Honestly Victor has given away so much I'd expect some level of blowback from the High Council over this. He's given 5 warships plus support ships and fighters away, tied up a yard to repair at their cost a Clan warship, tied up the next two Fox's for export as well from a yard, given the Smoke Jagaurs more troops (who lets face it, should be getting a LOT more scrutiny then they are seemingly getting from DMI and MIIO as they rebuild)...

    All for one wrecked Battleship?!

    Whatever everyone involved was smoking on Tharkad, it must have been GOOD.
    « Last Edit: 13 July 2019, 18:17:23 by Chris OFarrell »
    "I, the Baron of Strang, care not for your new names. Clans? Jade Falcons? I call you by your true name: Scum of the Star League, traitors of free will, persecutors of the Periphery come back to lord it over freedom-loving people. Come ahead, you steel-eyed robots! Come ahead and taste what a million like-minded people think of you and your damn Clans!"

    -Baron Stepan Von Strang

    FedRatCowboy

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    • Loyal Knight of House Davion.
    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #352 on: 13 July 2019, 21:09:52 »
    I think that Victor has not really given up all that much for a wrecked battleship.

     At the stories current rate of expansion, the FS would have more warship slips coming online and producing warships in the near future. This will be especially be important to get the jump on the production sites for the new Texas battleship after it is reverse engineered, redesigned, and up-armed.

    The fighters that he gave away are really a non-issue. 100+ fighters in the grand scheme of things is really just a drop in the bucket due to the FS production as of right now.

    The FS get a decent medium Clan tech Medium Battlemech with 2 dedicated production lines (with one line each producing each variant I hope.)

    As the for the SunJags, if you don't think that they are being watched like a hawk then you are mistaken. DMI, MIIO, the garrisoning FedSun troops, and even the Boy Scouts have people watching them with the guns off safe are ready to pull the trigger.
    "War is Hell. Combat is a mother ******."  --General Tommy Franks, US Army

    cawest

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #353 on: 13 July 2019, 21:24:12 »
    I wonder what will happen when word gets out that the FS is selling warships to ComStar, LC, Wolfs in Exile and Hounds.  I will bet Duke Kell will end up with one of those corvettes in all but name at least.  that could make for an infesting interview

    Intermittent_Coherence

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #354 on: 14 July 2019, 09:28:03 »
    On Outreach Colonel Maeve Wolf instructs the teams who built the Falcon IIC line out of salvage to begin laying the groundwork for an expansion of the very limited production. She wishes them to look at the Gallowglas WD, Imp C and Marauder II C designs to see which would be the easiest for them to put into production. Although the technicians point out that a non-Clantech design would be much easier to restart production off the Colonel insists on quality above quantity.
    Probably hold off on the Mad II C. It would require an XL engine.
    IMHO they should also look at producing a workhorse medium. Heavies are well and good but if you really want a sustainable mech unit, you need workhorse mediums.
    I'd put Hoplites back into production if they want a signature Dragoon design upgraded with Clantech. Or Hellhounds/Conjurers.

    cawest

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #355 on: 14 July 2019, 11:00:42 »
    Probably hold off on the Mad II C. It would require an XL engine.
    IMHO they should also look at producing a workhorse medium. Heavies are well and good but if you really want a sustainable mech unit, you need workhorse mediums.
    I'd put Hoplites back into production if they want a signature Dragoon design upgraded with Clantech. Or Hellhounds/Conjurers.

    I also think they "need" a medium to help the light.  trying to jump to assault would take more time and money they do not have.  it would be a show case but they could only have a few a month... at best.  they got the falcon C because it would take the shortest amount of time and resources.   Even then they needed Sun Jab and FS help.  I would go with clan battle armor (-harjel) They can be turned out in larger number and the INF of the WD will need the protection.  you can also sell on for more than the price of a locust(1.5) or wasp (1.6mil each).    Elemental   cost 3.3 million. I got the price from HeavyMetal Battle Armor software for the armor.   

    PsihoKekec

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    • Your spleen, give it to me!
    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #356 on: 14 July 2019, 11:33:34 »
    I think Victor really wanted to help his brother in the first place, while also getting something in return, something Peter couldn't use in first place.
    I'm glad Thanatos is getting ominmech reboot, I liked the design.
    Shoot first, laugh later.

    Billy Boy Mark II

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #357 on: 14 July 2019, 12:23:29 »
    3066 - June - Plans put in place

    The most worrying information coming to light in June was the confirmation of May's reports of the Thugee Cult are using hazmat suits to dig into their former temple cave system, along with a long range picture taken by an agent showing at least one cult member thrashing and dying with a tear in the hazmat suit from a sharp rock that had ripped the glove. This is all the confirmation that the DMI needs that the Thugee Cult on Highspire had access to nerve agents and is trying to reacquire them. As soon as this confirmation was received the Davion High Command began planning for a follow on strike at Highspire to ensure that the lunatic death cult didn't get their hands onto the terrifying weapon. However even as these plans are being put together the First Prince contacts the First Lord Christian Mansdottir to inform him of this development. While Victor Davion is careful not to threaten to take action if the First Lord doesn't that is almost implicit and only a fool would imagine that the FedSuns will allow this threat to grow.

    Just in case the Star League's response is too little too late the High Command are instructed to continue with their planning. This time the plans call for no mere raid but instead a descent in force to secure the world and any remaining stocks of nerve agent. However long this takes. The 2nd Davion Guards RCT and the 5th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT are to be tasked with securing the planet while the FSS Andrew Davion and 3 Fox corvettes are to provide support. Both RCT's are told that if they are sent to Highspire to be prepared to stay there for as long as it takes to find and destroy all stocks of the nerve agent. Even in the face of Capellan counter attacks. To help them small specialist infantry units are assembled for dealing with the actual excavations and the extraction and neutralisation of any nerve agents.

    Ardan Sortek takes his leave from Tharkad and begins the long journey home to the Federated Suns. While the deal he has negotiated isn't exactly cheap and he knows he will face at least some criticism from other members of the High Command for having given away so much his primary mission wasn't exactly to obtain a single Texas hull for rebuilding. Buried deep within the computers of said hull will be the design schematics for the ship that are required to perform even basic repairs. With these schematics and the design teams at Galax as well as the information the shipyards would obtain when they were tearing out the old Texas's internal workings to rebuild them the Federated Suns would be able to create a new battleship design based upon the Star League era Texas. One updated to the current era and able to go toe to toe with any enemy battleships. Unlike the Kurita's with their cobbled together ramshackle battleship and the Marik's updated small Atreus class battleships the Davion's would have a truly top of the line battleship due to this deal. With their existing superiority in lighter ships this design was to be the key in safeguarding the FedSun's for decades to come.

    Marshal of the Armies Jackson Davion has a meeting or at least HPG correspondence with all of the top officers within the Davion Brigade of Guards and puts before them the First Princes's new proposal. Although Marshal Alberta Orsina of the 4th has some reservations these are relatively minor and all of the rest of the various Marshals are in agreement with the First Princes's ideas. As such Marshal of the Armies Jackson Davion begins to move ahead with them.

    Fleet Admiral Buchwald also provides the First Prince with his proposed revised ranking system for the Federated Suns Navy. Based loosely on the old British and American rank system and SLDF Navy. This new system will be phased out over the next year and slowly replace the top heavy ranking system of the current navy.

    At Valois Russou Howell arrives with the CSJ Streaking Mist and CSJ Osis' Pride. This immedietly causes some consternation in the small AFFS "embassy" on the planet and word is sent for the the Federated Sun's Navy to rush warships to the region just in case. The First Prince dispatches his own 1st Cruiser Squadron and orders the FSS Kentares and FSS Galtor to rendezvous with them at Filtvelt.

    However they are not found to be necessary. The returning Gold Keshik and 1st Sun Jaguar Guards cluster accompany the other former Clan Smoke Jaguar dropships to the ground. There they inform the now Khan Tiaret Nevversan of Khan Showers death at the hands of the bandits. Russou Howell in honour of the fallen warrior submits himself to the authority of the Khan of the Clan Sun Jaguars and presents himself, his warriors and the civilians they liberated from SLDF rule on Huntress as well as the various genetic stocks and industrial designs they downloaded as assurances of his good will and recognition of the Clan Sun Jaguar as the continuation of the Jaguars. Khan Nevversan announces that she is accepting of the other former Smoke Jaguars as new Sun Jaguars and instructs Galaxy Commander Howell to form a Beta Galaxy around his roughly 2 clusters of warriors. The lower castes he brought are accepted into the Clan and bring the numbers of Sun Jaguars on the 3 worlds they occupy to around 120,000. The Khan immedietly sends word to New Avalon of the new arrivals and their warships - assuring the First Prince that these warships while claimed by Clan Sun Jaguar are his to call upon. Although they will need a major refit if they are to return to full service. As for the now vacant post of saKhan she declares that an election will be held for the office in August... During which all Sun Jaguars no matter their caste will be given an equal vote...

    At Galax the FSS Dahar, FSS Edwards, FSS Galax and FSS Kittery all slip free from the shipyards. With the new yard finishing these now empty yards will begin construction 5 Fox corvettes for the LAN and Clan Wolf-in-Exile Fleet. They are due to be finished in June 3067. The 4 Fox corvettes that have just been finished however don't split off for their training cruises. Instead they are formed into a provisional 1st Corvette Flotilla, 1st Division. The current Fox corvettes which are still deployed however are not formed into flotillas. At least not for the time being.

    Meanwhile at Kathil the FSS Carl Davion and FSS Jospeph Davion are commissioned. The FSS Carl Davion is immedietly assigned to the 2nd Cruiser Squadron in the Draconis March while the FSS Joseph Davion is assigned to the Capellan March based 3rd Cruiser Squadron.

    The FSS Churchill finishes at Panpour and heads to join her sister ship the FSS Congress. Both ships will provisionally be assigned to the 1st Patrol Squadron and sent to help patrol the Outback, particularly around the Taurian border.

    Even as ships are finishing in 3 of the FedSun's shipyards construction continues to expand the various shipyard complexes. In particular the High Command is pushing for as much redundancy as possible in the construction of warships. As such despite the shipyard still not having finished it's first Fox corvette the Filtvelt Shipyard begins construction of a new Davion III destroyer slip. New Syrtis see's a new Davion III slip ordered. Galax also begins adding an Avalon cruiser slip for the same reason, as the High Command is very aware that if Kathil was to be taken out they would have no source of new Avalons and likely would struggle to support the existing fleet. Galax also sees the start of a state of the art and frankly huge slip being constructed. This new addition could only be needed for a battleship and it is hard to hide it's existence. Or it's cost which is in fact deliberately inflated in every possible budget that could be seen. Which covers the fact that this slip has a twin being constructed in the semi-secret shipyard complex at Panpour.

    At Galax the select group of scientists who have been responsible for upgrading the Congress-D and Davion II and redesigning the New Syrtis Carrier begin work on 2 new projects in utmost secrecy. The largest of these projects is a complete redesign and rebuild of the Texas class battleship that their First Prince's Champion has managed to acquire - going beyond any previous upgrade they might have done. While the second is a much more conservative and relatively easier project of designing an upgrade for the FedSun's growing fleet of Fox corvettes.

    At Chesterton Achernar Industries commits to a new Argus-O line. While initially tempted with the ever popular Enforcer III the head office had eventually opted for the addition of an omnimech line at their new plant. This is in the the hope of further omnimech orders from the AFFS.

    The various technicians report back to Colonel Maeve on Outreach that they think they can probably add an additional Clantech assault mech line to the still somewhat rough around the edges rebuilt Blackwell Industries plant. However they note that even with their best efforts they will probably require at least some help form outside sources such as either Clan Wolf-in-Exile, NAIS or Clan Sun Jaguars. Given the recent help received from the FedSuns Colonel Wolf contacts NAIS and the AFFS High Command and asks them if they can assist in this project and invite the Jaguars to help as well. In return for a share of the production both groups happily agree and work begins on an Imp-C line on Outreach although it will only really properly start in November and proceed at a slow pace.

    On Broken Wheel the Andoran Industries plant has the new Mercury line come online, with the Hussar line not far behind and due to start producing battlemechs in July. This now raises the number of operational lines to 1 Clint, 2 Mercury and a Hussar line with a second Hussar line about to start. A far cry from the shattered company that was only capable of refits only a few short years ago. Andoran Industries Ltd announces that they will be adding a second line for their flagship battlemech the Clint in the near future.

    At the New Independence Weaponry's primary factory on Kestrel the Marauder II enters production. This now means that the Atlas, Marauder II, Gunslinger, Victor, Marauder and Jagermech III are all currently being built there.

    On Northwind Corsara Weapons with the full support of the Clan Elders offer to increase production of the Crab and King Crab battlemech's and to sell this increased production to the AFFS. The AFFS happily accept both designs for increased production and using what is now a well established practise offer the company and Northwind several incentives to help increase production such as tax breaks.

    Michael Heavy Industries which until now has been somewhat overlooked during the expansions of various military industrial companies is now contacted by the First Princes's representatives. The company is invited to build 2 new plants - on June and on Sun Prairie to initially concentrate on building Yellow Jackets and Hawk Moths but with plans for the company to expand to include all their current designs.

    First Lord Mansdottir sends word to Chancellor Sun-Tzu Liao of the information that he has received regarding the nerve agent that the Chancellor's sister's followers are attempting to dig out on Highspire. He informs the Chancellor that he is proposing a joint mission by a hand selected CCAF regiment and the 151st Light Horse regiment to stop this threat. The Chancellor, horrified by this revelation still is unhappy about the inclusion of an SLDF unit in the plan, but the First Lord points out that it is very unlikely that the AFFS will accept a purely Capellan response and are no doubt drawing up plans to deal with the situation themselves. As such the Chancellor reluctantly agrees and orders his own Red Lancers to Highspire.

    Across the Inner Sphere there is a spate of attacks upon ComGuard garrisons and Comstar compounds by raiding WOB Militia forces. Nothing larger than a company formation is seen - and mostly consist of infantry, but they cause widespread panic in the civilian populations of the Lyran Alliance, Federated Suns and Draconis Combine as well as casualties to the ComGuards. All 3 realms military step up patrols to find where these small raiding forces came from and how they managed to land without anyone having seen them.
    « Last Edit: 15 July 2019, 06:17:37 by Billy Boy Mark II »

    Billy Boy Mark II

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #358 on: 14 July 2019, 12:48:44 »
    Naval Ranks

    Old Rank-------------New Rank--------Old Usual Command--------New UsualCommand


    Fleet Admiral--------Fleet Admiral-------Federated Suns Navy-----Federated Suns Navy

    Admiral--------------Admiral-------------Flotilla/Squadron----------Fleet

    Vice Admiral---------Vice Admiral-------Warship---------------------Task Force

    Rear Admiral---------Rear Admiral------Warship XO-----------------Squadron

    Commodore----------Commodore-------Dropship Squadron--------Dropship Squadron/Warship Division 
       
    Light Commodore----Captain------------Dropship-------------------Warship-----All ship's commanding officers known as "Captain" while aboard their vessel. Also if another "Captain" is assigned to a vessel they are temporarily and unofficially promoted or designated in a different way - For instance "Flag Captain" for a naval staff officer or "Major" for a ground force captain.

    Major------------------Commander------None------------------------XO of Warship/CO Dropship

    Captain----------------Lt. Commander--None------------------------XO of Dropship

    Lieutenant-------------Lieutenant-------None------------------------None

    Sub Alteran------------Lietenant JG----None------------------------None

    Cadet------------------Cadet------------None------------------------None
    « Last Edit: 14 July 2019, 15:35:58 by Billy Boy Mark II »

    cawest

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    Re: The Federated Sun's Reborn
    « Reply #359 on: 14 July 2019, 14:49:14 »
    is there a reason that a larger slip can not make many smaller ships.  say the BB slip is completed early or the design is delayed.  it is rated for 2m tons (just threw that number out their)  can it build 3 or maybe 2 smaller Davion III DDs at the same time?  finding funds to have a lot of BB's will be an issues.  the DC found this out, but if you can use the same slip to build many ships (of the same design) you can use "Economy of Scale" to make the ship a little cheaper. 

     

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