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Author Topic: A universe without double heatsinks  (Read 1836 times)

AlphaMirage

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A universe without double heatsinks
« on: 24 May 2019, 08:30:04 »
The recent discussion in the "What would you change" topic in the General forum has me curious.  What would Battletech look like without double heatsinks but with new technologies to keep it interesting (and 'realistic')?  I have recently attempted to do this in my alternate 3039 Ian Davion, Golden Lion AU (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61870.0).

I have started by looking at the neglected laser insulator and focused first on improving the Large Laser long a laggard in the game. Its stats are 6 Heat, 8 damage, still 5 tons but now 3 crits instead of 2 for a total sinked mass of 11 tons.  That works out to ~0.7 dmg per ton, compared to 1.25 for a medium (which I think should take up 2 crits instead of the one in a world without DHS for padding reasons), or 2 for a small.

Do you think pulse and ER lasers are viable with only single sinks?  Would improved heavy lasers come out similar to the Binary laser (Blazer) to increase damage, PPCs more regularly pack capacitors for a boost, or would that heavy damage be left to ballistics?  Would the standard IS advanced armors and structures that eat into valuable critical space still be viable on heavier units?

I think that obviously the Gauss rifle and its littler brother the LB-X10 now become even better guns in a SHS world.  Vehicles would become even more on par with mechs especially with advanced armor taking up less of their 'crit' spaces.  Infantry or Battle Armor with inferno SRMs once more become a nightmare scenario that requires AP weapons.

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: 24 May 2019, 15:37:49 by AlphaMirage »

Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #1 on: 24 May 2019, 08:39:46 »
I'd approach the problem from the heat sink side, not the weapon side.  I've previously proposed what some have called "half heat sinks" as an improvement vice jumping straight to doubles.  Basically, a half heat sink is half a ton, two critical slots, and sinks one heat.  You still only get 10 in the engine, so there's no "free" boost for 'mechs without extra weight dedicated to heat sinks.  Constructed this way, there's no reason you couldn't mix them with "standard" heat sinks (if you were limited on critical spaces).

Check out how 3025 'mechs look with HHS installed... Warhammers and Marauders get significantly better, and the variants still (mostly) make sense.

The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #2 on: 24 May 2019, 14:06:09 »
I'm considering an idea that replaces the whole heat scale concept with an "operating temperature" paradigm in an effort to make doubles (and other improved heat sink concepts) less broken without completely wrecking designs that depend on them to function.

I'm not sure of the specifics yet but it would probably look something like a "heat check" in the heat phase of every round to determine whether the running temp goes up or down, and every type of equipment would have a temperature limit above which it stops functioning (or in the case of things like ammo, fails catastrophically). Just having heat sinks wouldn't be enough to cool you off, you'd have to take a "vent heat" action to drop your temperature by a significant degree, which in turn would expose you to additional damage in a similar manner to dumping ammo.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #3 on: 24 May 2019, 14:43:45 »
That sounds extremely fiddly compared to what we have now.  Interesting, yes, but fiddly...

Maingunnery

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #4 on: 24 May 2019, 14:57:16 »
Do you think pulse and ER lasers are viable with only single sinks?
Pulse lasers would be combined with complementary loadout, while ER lasers would be backup weapons on ammo heavy mechs.

Quote
Would improved heavy lasers come out similar to the Binary laser (Blazer) to increase damage, PPCs more regularly pack capacitors for a boost, or would that heavy damage be left to ballistics?
PPC capacitors add a lot of heat so I think that those will be limited to light PPCs.

Quote
Would the standard IS advanced armors and structures that eat into valuable critical space still be viable on heavier units?
Yes, without special armors&structures there are only the DHS heavy mechs that use up all the space.
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The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2019, 15:29:08 »
That sounds extremely fiddly compared to what we have now.  Interesting, yes, but fiddly...

Once an initial fiddly version is working, it can be streamlined in subsequent revisions.

The classic heat mechanics are too simplistic and were just barely balanced with the 3025 equipment set. And they're too easy to game. One of my goals is that a "heat neutral" 'Mech should be impossible.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2019, 15:34:02 »
Hmmm... how does a heat neutral 'mech compare to vehicles in this paradigm?

The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2019, 15:51:57 »
Do you think pulse and ER lasers are viable with only single sinks?

Of course. The main consequence of removing DHS is that 'Mechs stop being over-gunned and time-to-kill goes back to what it was in 3025, albeit with somewhat longer engagement ranges. The XL engine becomes more attractive with a pressing need for free weight. Over-gunned light 'Mechs will be hit the hardest, as they're already relying on energy weapons to get the most out of their meager weapons tonnage.

Hmmm... how does a heat neutral 'mech compare to vehicles in this paradigm?

I'd consider vehicles to be "always venting heat" due to construction differences. 'Mechs are tougher but it comes at the cost of not shedding heat as easily. The longer a 'Mech stays in the fight, the hotter it should get--having good heat dissipation will just delay the need to do a heat dump. Conversely, I want to level the playing field in the other direction as well, so that designs like the 3025 Marauder aren't crippled by being unable to use half their weapons.

I'm still at the note-taking stage on this. I haven't settled on a specific mechanic that I like yet.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2019, 16:03:04 »
I'm not sure you'll find a mechanic that does what you want.  I think TPTB back in the day actually hit on a pretty solid idea.

AlphaMirage

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2019, 16:12:39 »
I'm not sure you'll find a mechanic that does what you want.  I think TPTB back in the day actually hit on a pretty solid idea.

True I much prefer the relatively simplistic portrayal of heat as a resource.  Would prefer something more along the lines of a range effect (5-10 -1 MP /+1 G, 10-15 Double that, 16+ Varying levels of critical failure) too many mechs just stop at 8, I prefer mechs that fight in brackets and like to live dangerously on the edge of their machine's performance.  That feels more like the kind of attitude a Mechwarrior should have. 

You want to be safe ride a missile tank!  All the Mechwarriors in the Battle-tech universe should fight like clanners.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #10 on: 24 May 2019, 23:16:23 »
Personally I'd roll with the "engine heat sinks (minimum 10) are SHS, any additional can be freezers" idea.  This way a Stinger, for example, can have its base ten heat dissipation, and so can anything up to a 250-class engine.  The classic 300 series engines would have 12 SHS in the engine, none of which can be freezers, but you still pay the two tons to fit the two SHS in the engine.  The 400 series would be six tons of SHS in the engine before you get to doubles.

It'd penalize heavies, I think, since you can't get freezers until you pass the engine HS, but it'd give lights and mediums a bit better heat dissipation.  It'd work well enough with the small, compact size of energy weapons, and you can't mount a lot of DHS, but it does save you some hard tonnage you can use for things that don't take up space (looking at you, armor).

Alternately, there's 'Go back to the old rules where you account for ALL heat sinks' which would dramatically change the survivability of various 'Mechs.  Thinking of the Marauder, Crusader, etc; stuff with empty torsos that suddenly find themselves at least somewhat critpacked.

Let's see how the former works, for the TDR-7M.  It gets 10 free engine sinks, all of which would be SHS.  It comes with 15 doubles normally, so we'll make the last 5 Freezers, all of which need to be allocated.  Fortunately it already does that; the only change is that it drops from 30 heat dissipation to 20 (10+(5*2)) which isn't that bad - it only builds up 29 heat anyway on a full running alpha-strike.

A Battlemaster, meanwhile...let's take the Royal Beemer.  13 free engine sinks, so it's paying 3 tons for 13 SHS total.  The other four HS would all be doubles, which again are allocated, but chops the heat dissipation back to 21 (13+(4*2)) and really forces a rethink of the design.  I mean, two ERPPCs and an LPL for 21 heat dissipation is pretty rough...

Maybe as an alternative, the fusion engine has ten points of its own cooling system - the FECS - and ANY actual heat sinks added can be double or single, but all must be paid for.  Think of it like this.  The engine naturally produces heat, but is shielded as in basic canon.  If the shielding is damaged once (engine crit), you leak 5 points of heat into the system, which is immediately taken up by the FECS' 10 point heat capacity.  A second hit to the engine (more specifically, the engine shielding) means a severely exposed engine core, leaking 10 points of heat - just enough for the FECS to maintain cooling and keep it from going runaway, though movement or doing anything other than shutting down ASAP is going to build up heat the FECS can't shed.  Punch in ten FECS slots into every 'Mech, ostensibly in the three torso locations if possible?

That'd turn the Battlemaster above into a bit of a tizzy, since it's buying 7 Freezers on top of its ten FECS points, so it's getting 24 heat dissipation (10+(7*2)) which is a little better but it might still want to rethink that gunload.  And it's got the empty crits to do it, at the moment...unless you make the FECS ten heat sinks required as well.

I'm just shotgunning ideas, mixing them together to see how they do.  Stepping back entirely and trying something different, what if we go with XL HS?  Apply all Standard and XL heat sinks, only XLHS are 0.5 tons and 1 crit each, still shedding only 1 point of heat.  Thermal efficiency only goes so far; you can make the heat sink lighter but not smaller or more effective.  At least you could afford to slot a lot more of them than the three-slot DHS, and XLHS would fit nicely in the CT and legs as well.  As a bonus, you have to slot ALL heat sinks, so you're still limited to a rough max of mid-20s heat dissipation assuming most slots in the torso, legs, and a few arm slots are taken up.  It'd give back some survivability, I think, since you're filling in slots.

I kinda like that last idea.  Time to make a mech or three...Thunderbolt, Crusader, and Marauder, the former because I love 'em and the latter because they're infamously terrible torso bombs.

garhkal

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2019, 01:57:25 »
That sounds extremely fiddly compared to what we have now.  Interesting, yes, but fiddly...

Agreed.  One alternate method i've seen, is that double heats cost 1.5 tons, vice just one..
And for those 'part of your engine' ones, you'd divide the engine rating by 30 vice 25 to see how many you had integral to your mech..

Of course. The main consequence of removing DHS is that 'Mechs stop being over-gunned and time-to-kill goes back to what it was in 3025, albeit with somewhat longer engagement ranges. The XL engine becomes more attractive with a pressing need for free weight. Over-gunned light 'Mechs will be hit the hardest, as they're already relying on energy weapons to get the most out of their meager weapons tonnage.

Or mechs start using more updated ballistic/missile stuff, to get that 'oomph' they seek.

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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2019, 02:44:16 »
I drop just one idea.
The ability to vent heat is depending on area, so a double heatsink uses light alloys to increase the radiator area. So anytime a hit against the rear of a Mech is achieved, roll 2d6 base is 7 for DHS the MoD is the reduced heat dissipation of that Mech.
So a locust strafed the rear of a warhawk and hit with both MGs. He rolls a 7 and a 11 for heat sink damage the warhawk can dissipate now only 37 instead of 40.

Larger Mechs have more area (that is neatly solved with engine rating. Make the free heat sinks free and limit them as single ones (the above rule can not drop the heat dissipation below the number of free heat sinks)

The heat bracket system 5-10 instead of exact values sounds great

Maingunnery

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2019, 18:46:00 »

I have to admit that in the current rules the heat dissipation has gotten out of hand.

In my opinion it would have been better if
- Fusion engines only came with 10 free SHS (never become DHS)
- Extra HS (SHS or DHS) are mounted outside of the engine (never absorbed by high engine ratings)

This would severely lower the average and maximum heat dissipation, and be a very simple system.
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Agathos

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2019, 19:06:18 »
I might tinker with the Heat Sink Coolant Failure optional rule in Tac Ops. As written it only increases the value of double heat sinks (you beat the rule by never exceeding 4 on the heat scale). But give double heat sink users a penalty on that roll and things get a little interesting.

Maybe even calculate the heat level for the Coolant Failure Modifier Table as if all heat sinks were singles, then make the roll, then subtract the second point for each freezer before going on to resolve the Heat Phase. So after a standing alpha strike, your ostensibly heat-neutral Hellstar will briefly be sitting at 30 heat and will lose a point of heat sinking capacity on a roll of 6+. And things could easily snowball (fireball?) from there. Spicy. >:D

RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #15 on: 25 May 2019, 23:35:38 »
I'm not sure you can get rid of double heat sinks without breaking other things. The really heat intensive weapons like the Blazer would still be rare.

Some things I might do are;
1) instead of just becoming lostech DHSs are downgraded to DHS-P before going completely extinct. That would give mechs some extra cooling power during the Succession Wars but not as much as before. I'd also have them produced longer after DHS are introduced and reintroduced as a means of more quickly upgrading mechs.

2) I'd keep the single crit DSHS from the Black Widows scenario book but treat their loss like a 2 point ammo. This would help crit starved mechs but at a risk.

3) I'd continue to have the Laser Insulator and similar items but make the quirk extinct into the 3030s.

4) I'd have a Low Tech/Primitive version of the DHS. Itd work like the DHS-P but weigh 1.5 tons. This would make high heat mechs more effective but not as much as with DHD.

5) I'd rule that heat sinks do not have to be placed in the engine. This would give mechs some optional crit padding. To pull HS out of the engine or put them back in requires a factory. 

6) I'd also up the amount of heat quads can disappate in water to 8 points if the legs have enough heat sinks. This would kind of go along with the 3025 fluff for the Scorpion.

garhkal

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #16 on: 26 May 2019, 01:43:00 »
I have to admit that in the current rules the heat dissipation has gotten out of hand.

In my opinion it would have been better if
- Fusion engines only came with 10 free SHS (never become DHS)
- Extra HS (SHS or DHS) are mounted outside of the engine (never absorbed by high engine ratings)

This would severely lower the average and maximum heat dissipation, and be a very simple system.

Would you keep the # of crits needed at 3 for IS doubles or 2 for clan doubles?

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Maingunnery

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #17 on: 26 May 2019, 04:21:54 »
Would you keep the # of crits needed at 3 for IS doubles or 2 for clan doubles?
Yes to keep it simple.
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Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #18 on: 26 May 2019, 08:25:21 »
*snip*
1) instead of just becoming lostech DHSs are downgraded to DHS-P before going completely extinct. That would give mechs some extra cooling power during the Succession Wars but not as much as before. I'd also have them produced longer after DHS are introduced and reintroduced as a means of more quickly upgrading mechs.
*snip*
That was actually where I was originally headed with the 0.5 ton, 2 crit version: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62762.0

RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #19 on: 26 May 2019, 09:04:31 »
That was actually where I was originally headed with the 0.5 ton, 2 crit version: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62762.0

Interesting idea but it feels even more advanced than standard DHS. Your Prototypes can fit in the engine, they weigh half as much and take up 1 less slot than the production version but the only draw back is that only 5 fit into the engine.  It feels more like a Clan prototype for a new DHS than a prototype for the original DHS.

Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #20 on: 26 May 2019, 09:17:46 »
No, per my other thread, they only sink 1 heat each, and you get 10 in the engine as normal.  The trick is that means the free engine heat sinks only get you 10 heat (just like singles).  Basically, it's 1 ton, 4 crits per 2 heat, and the crits can be split up in pairs.

RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #21 on: 26 May 2019, 10:36:57 »
Ah. Sorry misread that. So they're more like an Extra Light Heat Sink instead of a DSH?

It still seems more advanced. Cool idea though.  :thumbsup:  Just not something one would see during the Succession Wars but after the Clan Invasion.

Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #22 on: 26 May 2019, 10:49:36 »
Some people called them XL Heat Sinks, others Half Heat Sinks.  To me, they just seem like more of a natural evolution than jumping straight to 2 heat in a 3-crit, 1-ton package.

RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #23 on: 27 May 2019, 00:44:49 »
It is cool. It just seems more advanced and out of place for the Succession Wars.


 :crash: cell phones
« Last Edit: 31 May 2019, 08:52:37 by RifleMech »

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #24 on: 30 May 2019, 13:49:33 »
If you want a real challenge, make it so that all there is to use is compact heat sinks.  1.5t 1/2 crit and only sink 1 heat. Still trying to find a viable design that actually makes any sense to use them. 
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The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #25 on: 30 May 2019, 15:49:24 »
If you want a real challenge, make it so that all there is to use is compact heat sinks.  1.5t 1/2 crit and only sink 1 heat. Still trying to find a viable design that actually makes any sense to use them.

You can fit twice as many compact sinks into the engine. Consider something like this: a modified Hollander with a RAC/5, endo, ferro, and a Void Signature system, with 12 compact heat sinks. It only has one free critical slot even with all 12 sinks crammed into a 175 engine. With standard sinks, nevermind doubles, it wouldn't be able to fit everything. It has just enough dissipation to fire a full-strength RAC burst with the Void system on, then run away. As befitting its role as an ambusher.

Code: [Select]
Hollander BZK-CHS
Base Tech Level: Experimental (IS)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental    - 
Advanced      3145+
Standard        - 
Tech Rating: E/X-X-X-F

Weight: 35 tons
BV: 951
Cost: 5,572,710 C-bills

Movement: 5/8
Engine: 175
Compact Heat Sinks: 12
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: 58 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 71/119 (Ferro-Fibrous)
                     Internal  Armor   
----------------------------------------
Head                        3      7   
Center Torso               11     11   
Center Torso (rear)                3   
Right Torso                 8      9   
Right Torso (rear)                 3   
Left Torso                  8      9   
Left Torso (rear)                  3   
Right Arm                   6      5   
Left Arm                    6      5   
Right Leg                   8      8   
Left Leg                    8      8   

Weapons      Loc  Heat 
------------------------
Rotary AC/5   RT    1   

Ammo              Loc  Shots 
------------------------------
Rotary AC/5 Ammo   LT     20 
Rotary AC/5 Ammo   LT     20 

Equipment              Loc 
----------------------------
CASE                    LT 
Void Signature System   CT 
ECM Suite (Guardian)    LT 

Of course, you could trade out for standard armor and not need the compact sinks. But there are other specialty armors that take up a bunch of slots too...
« Last Edit: 30 May 2019, 15:52:51 by The_Caveman »
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #26 on: 31 May 2019, 06:55:34 »
Where is there a RULE that states that you can fit twice the number of compacts as any other?  I have NEVER seen this.  Even if you can, the weight penalty is HUGE!
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AlphaMirage

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #27 on: 31 May 2019, 07:58:17 »
Seems we've drifted off my original idea. 

While I like the alternate heat sink ideas what if we were just stuck with singles? but had the new weapons of the Clan Era and no Clans to shake things up?

The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #28 on: 31 May 2019, 08:14:36 »
Where is there a RULE that states that you can fit twice the number of compacts as any other?  I have NEVER seen this.  Even if you can, the weight penalty is HUGE!

Then you didn't read the rules carefully enough. It's been that way since at least Maximum Tech (not sure if they were in THB). Current rules are TacOps p.316: A ’Mech using Compact Heat Sinks also doubles the number of heat sinks that need not be allocated to its critical hits table.

This IMO is the entire point of the compact sink. 'Mechs with low engine ratings using bulky but low-heat equipment like MML racks or LB-X autocannons, and specialty armors/structure. If you only need the base 10 sinks, compacts cost you nothing except the ability to use heatsinks as "ghetto CASE".
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #29 on: 31 May 2019, 09:01:17 »
Then you didn't read the rules carefully enough. It's been that way since at least Maximum Tech (not sure if they were in THB). Current rules are TacOps p.316: A ’Mech using Compact Heat Sinks also doubles the number of heat sinks that need not be allocated to its critical hits table.

This IMO is the entire point of the compact sink. 'Mechs with low engine ratings using bulky but low-heat equipment like MML racks or LB-X autocannons, and specialty armors/structure. If you only need the base 10 sinks, compacts cost you nothing except the ability to use heatsinks as "ghetto CASE".

Hmm...  I will have to read up on it again.  Been a long time.
If at first you don't succeed, make it worth the repairman's time!

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #30 on: 31 May 2019, 09:04:20 »
Seems we've drifted off my original idea. 

While I like the alternate heat sink ideas what if we were just stuck with singles? but had the new weapons of the Clan Era and no Clans to shake things up?

Apologies.


Honestly, it would make ammunition dependent weapons a bigger deal and relegate energy weapons to serve as backups mostly.....especially with the high heat ER models.  A Laser AMS is going to be out of the question.  Stealth armor is going to be tough to use effectively as well.
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RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #31 on: 31 May 2019, 09:06:37 »
Seems we've drifted off my original idea. 

While I like the alternate heat sink ideas what if we were just stuck with singles? but had the new weapons of the Clan Era and no Clans to shake things up?

I think if they were used they'd be limited in number or the types used would change.  I can't see the Warhammer using 2 ER PPCs since the heat would be too great without DHS. I can see the Warhammer useing 2 ER Large Lasers instead of PPCs and the weight saved would go to more heat sinks. That would allow the Warhammer to use its LLasers without worrying about heat too much. That's presuming they got out of the prototype stage. The extra 1D6 random heat for the ER LLaser would be project killer.

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #32 on: 31 May 2019, 09:40:13 »
I think if they were used they'd be limited in number or the types used would change.  I can't see the Warhammer using 2 ER PPCs since the heat would be too great without DHS. I can see the Warhammer useing 2 ER Large Lasers instead of PPCs and the weight saved would go to more heat sinks. That would allow the Warhammer to use its LLasers without worrying about heat too much. That's presuming they got out of the prototype stage. The extra 1D6 random heat for the ER LLaser would be project killer.

Have to agree with you.  Even still....paired ER Large will run hot.  Not saying it cannot be done.....  What it loses at ranged punch, it gains in close in firepower (over standard PPC) with only moderate heat increase over standards PPCs.
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The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #33 on: 31 May 2019, 09:52:29 »
A dual-ERPPC 'Mech is doable with single HS but it becomes a specialist. You put two ERPPCs on it because you need ranged fire support without ammo restrictions. I could see a JagerMech conversion that dropped the autocannons in favor of paired ERPPCs and a boatload of heat sinks.
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Elmoth

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #34 on: 31 May 2019, 15:06:29 »
I would also say that SHS-only would mean that high heat weapons are only viable if they are the main weapon of the model, and only one of them. AC would be more preponderant, and ER Large Lasers would be the top of high tech if you for a pair. ER PPC would only be used as a single weapon. And the old normal PPC would remain a viable option.

I like this. Overkill log range energy boats would be less common, so everybody would have some kind of drawback. Either lacking in range, running hot, or being ammo dependent.

RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #35 on: 02 June 2019, 08:34:25 »
Have to agree with you.  Even still....paired ER Large will run hot.  Not saying it cannot be done.....  What it loses at ranged punch, it gains in close in firepower (over standard PPC) with only moderate heat increase over standards PPCs.

Hot yes but not crippling. At least not if you don't continually alpha while moving. And Clan versions would keep the punch of the old PPCs. So that's a plus there. Getting to the Clan ER Large Laser though would be a trick. It'd have to get past the prototype stage and with it generating a possible 18 heat per shot its worse than the ER PPC in terms of heat.



A dual-ERPPC 'Mech is doable with single HS but it becomes a specialist. You put two ERPPCs on it because you need ranged fire support without ammo restrictions. I could see a JagerMech conversion that dropped the autocannons in favor of paired ERPPCs and a boatload of heat sinks.

That would work.

I would also say that SHS-only would mean that high heat weapons are only viable if they are the main weapon of the model, and only one of them. AC would be more preponderant, and ER Large Lasers would be the top of high tech if you for a pair. ER PPC would only be used as a single weapon. And the old normal PPC would remain a viable option.

I like this. Overkill log range energy boats would be less common, so everybody would have some kind of drawback. Either lacking in range, running hot, or being ammo dependent.

It'd depend on the model though. The 3050 Scorpion using an ER PPC and single heat sinks wasn't a good idea.

Speedbump

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #36 on: 02 June 2019, 13:18:35 »
The combination of Lostech weapons (Gauss Rifle, LBX AC10, Artemis LRMs) and CASE makes the long ranged game a lot more competitive. However I think its fair to say the the Medium Laser remains king at short range. To dethrone them you have to throw Ultra/LBX AC20s or SSRM6s into the mix, but even then the ML doesn't remains competitive until you start involving Clantech.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #37 on: 12 June 2019, 22:59:16 »
Kicking this one back open, and holding to the SHS only rule I'd say post 3050, the Gauss Rifle would probably be THE standard weapon for 'Mechs.  In a world without DHS, sure it's heavy, but you can really do a lot with it.  The LB10, just as much, but I can't see the kinds of energy boats we get later in most cases.

Maybe something like an HBK-4P with an XLFE, the same heat battery, and a barrage of MPLs instead of regular MLs.

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #38 on: 13 June 2019, 06:57:58 »
Kicking this one back open, and holding to the SHS only rule I'd say post 3050, the Gauss Rifle would probably be THE standard weapon for 'Mechs.  In a world without DHS, sure it's heavy, but you can really do a lot with it.  The LB10, just as much, but I can't see the kinds of energy boats we get later in most cases.



The gauss rifle would be the best ballistic weapon in this case.....better than ANY autocannon.  Why?  NO ammo explosions due to overheat.  Yes, you still have the huge capacitor bomb, but it won't cook off like ammo. 
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #39 on: 13 June 2019, 07:07:55 »

The gauss rifle would be the best ballistic weapon in this case.....better than ANY autocannon.  Why?  NO ammo explosions due to overheat.  Yes, you still have the huge capacitor bomb, but it won't cook off like ammo. 

Well, when we get, rid of the double heatsink the GaussRifle would be the second thing to look at.
Because:
The GaussRifle is the mad combination of an AC5 and a PPC - it weights the same and has the same crits, and deals the same damage
BUT: somehow the GaussRifle has more range, less minimum range and no heat.... so something is obviously off. (sure only 8 rounds rather than 20)

Elmoth

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #40 on: 13 June 2019, 07:36:58 »
Yeah. Because we all know that a chunk of lead (ok, ferronikel) is more voluminous than a pair of 80-100mm rounds with their needed propellant et al. xD

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #41 on: 13 June 2019, 12:54:27 »
Randumb thought: keeping with the "all heat sinks have to be allocated" idea, what if DHS are only one crit...but only weigh 1.5 tons, compared to SHS?

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #42 on: 13 June 2019, 14:30:38 »

What about having the type of heatsink being dependent upon the engine type?
STD -> Singles only
Light -> Singles only
XL -> Doubles only
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #43 on: 13 June 2019, 15:33:12 »
I'd approach the problem from the heat sink side, not the weapon side.  I've previously proposed what some have called "half heat sinks" as an improvement vice jumping straight to doubles.  Basically, a half heat sink is half a ton, two critical slots, and sinks one heat.  You still only get 10 in the engine, so there's no "free" boost for 'mechs without extra weight dedicated to heat sinks.  Constructed this way, there's no reason you couldn't mix them with "standard" heat sinks (if you were limited on critical spaces).

Check out how 3025 'mechs look with HHS installed... Warhammers and Marauders get significantly better, and the variants still (mostly) make sense.
So basically "Lightweight" Heat Sink?
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Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #44 on: 13 June 2019, 17:20:10 »
Yes... I think more of the discussion was in that other thread...

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #45 on: 14 June 2019, 16:46:22 »
Randumb thought: keeping with the "all heat sinks have to be allocated" idea, what if DHS are only one crit...but only weigh 1.5 tons, compared to SHS?

i messed around with this except no changes to crits. apart from redeeming early ammo bombs like the crusader and marauder, it instantly ****** up a huge percentage of clans mech over 25-30 tons. with IS especially you have to choose - dhs or endo/ferro. all of a sudden, cool-running AC boats with CASE and energy weapons as backup guns become much more viable.