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Author Topic: A universe without double heatsinks  (Read 1144 times)

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #30 on: 31 May 2019, 09:04:20 »
Seems we've drifted off my original idea. 

While I like the alternate heat sink ideas what if we were just stuck with singles? but had the new weapons of the Clan Era and no Clans to shake things up?

Apologies.


Honestly, it would make ammunition dependent weapons a bigger deal and relegate energy weapons to serve as backups mostly.....especially with the high heat ER models.  A Laser AMS is going to be out of the question.  Stealth armor is going to be tough to use effectively as well.
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RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #31 on: 31 May 2019, 09:06:37 »
Seems we've drifted off my original idea. 

While I like the alternate heat sink ideas what if we were just stuck with singles? but had the new weapons of the Clan Era and no Clans to shake things up?

I think if they were used they'd be limited in number or the types used would change.  I can't see the Warhammer using 2 ER PPCs since the heat would be too great without DHS. I can see the Warhammer useing 2 ER Large Lasers instead of PPCs and the weight saved would go to more heat sinks. That would allow the Warhammer to use its LLasers without worrying about heat too much. That's presuming they got out of the prototype stage. The extra 1D6 random heat for the ER LLaser would be project killer.

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #32 on: 31 May 2019, 09:40:13 »
I think if they were used they'd be limited in number or the types used would change.  I can't see the Warhammer using 2 ER PPCs since the heat would be too great without DHS. I can see the Warhammer useing 2 ER Large Lasers instead of PPCs and the weight saved would go to more heat sinks. That would allow the Warhammer to use its LLasers without worrying about heat too much. That's presuming they got out of the prototype stage. The extra 1D6 random heat for the ER LLaser would be project killer.

Have to agree with you.  Even still....paired ER Large will run hot.  Not saying it cannot be done.....  What it loses at ranged punch, it gains in close in firepower (over standard PPC) with only moderate heat increase over standards PPCs.
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The_Caveman

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #33 on: 31 May 2019, 09:52:29 »
A dual-ERPPC 'Mech is doable with single HS but it becomes a specialist. You put two ERPPCs on it because you need ranged fire support without ammo restrictions. I could see a JagerMech conversion that dropped the autocannons in favor of paired ERPPCs and a boatload of heat sinks.
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Elmoth

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #34 on: 31 May 2019, 15:06:29 »
I would also say that SHS-only would mean that high heat weapons are only viable if they are the main weapon of the model, and only one of them. AC would be more preponderant, and ER Large Lasers would be the top of high tech if you for a pair. ER PPC would only be used as a single weapon. And the old normal PPC would remain a viable option.

I like this. Overkill log range energy boats would be less common, so everybody would have some kind of drawback. Either lacking in range, running hot, or being ammo dependent.

RifleMech

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #35 on: 02 June 2019, 08:34:25 »
Have to agree with you.  Even still....paired ER Large will run hot.  Not saying it cannot be done.....  What it loses at ranged punch, it gains in close in firepower (over standard PPC) with only moderate heat increase over standards PPCs.

Hot yes but not crippling. At least not if you don't continually alpha while moving. And Clan versions would keep the punch of the old PPCs. So that's a plus there. Getting to the Clan ER Large Laser though would be a trick. It'd have to get past the prototype stage and with it generating a possible 18 heat per shot its worse than the ER PPC in terms of heat.



A dual-ERPPC 'Mech is doable with single HS but it becomes a specialist. You put two ERPPCs on it because you need ranged fire support without ammo restrictions. I could see a JagerMech conversion that dropped the autocannons in favor of paired ERPPCs and a boatload of heat sinks.

That would work.

I would also say that SHS-only would mean that high heat weapons are only viable if they are the main weapon of the model, and only one of them. AC would be more preponderant, and ER Large Lasers would be the top of high tech if you for a pair. ER PPC would only be used as a single weapon. And the old normal PPC would remain a viable option.

I like this. Overkill log range energy boats would be less common, so everybody would have some kind of drawback. Either lacking in range, running hot, or being ammo dependent.

It'd depend on the model though. The 3050 Scorpion using an ER PPC and single heat sinks wasn't a good idea.

Speedbump

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #36 on: 02 June 2019, 13:18:35 »
The combination of Lostech weapons (Gauss Rifle, LBX AC10, Artemis LRMs) and CASE makes the long ranged game a lot more competitive. However I think its fair to say the the Medium Laser remains king at short range. To dethrone them you have to throw Ultra/LBX AC20s or SSRM6s into the mix, but even then the ML doesn't remains competitive until you start involving Clantech.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #37 on: 12 June 2019, 22:59:16 »
Kicking this one back open, and holding to the SHS only rule I'd say post 3050, the Gauss Rifle would probably be THE standard weapon for 'Mechs.  In a world without DHS, sure it's heavy, but you can really do a lot with it.  The LB10, just as much, but I can't see the kinds of energy boats we get later in most cases.

Maybe something like an HBK-4P with an XLFE, the same heat battery, and a barrage of MPLs instead of regular MLs.

packhntr

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #38 on: 13 June 2019, 06:57:58 »
Kicking this one back open, and holding to the SHS only rule I'd say post 3050, the Gauss Rifle would probably be THE standard weapon for 'Mechs.  In a world without DHS, sure it's heavy, but you can really do a lot with it.  The LB10, just as much, but I can't see the kinds of energy boats we get later in most cases.



The gauss rifle would be the best ballistic weapon in this case.....better than ANY autocannon.  Why?  NO ammo explosions due to overheat.  Yes, you still have the huge capacitor bomb, but it won't cook off like ammo. 
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #39 on: 13 June 2019, 07:07:55 »

The gauss rifle would be the best ballistic weapon in this case.....better than ANY autocannon.  Why?  NO ammo explosions due to overheat.  Yes, you still have the huge capacitor bomb, but it won't cook off like ammo. 

Well, when we get, rid of the double heatsink the GaussRifle would be the second thing to look at.
Because:
The GaussRifle is the mad combination of an AC5 and a PPC - it weights the same and has the same crits, and deals the same damage
BUT: somehow the GaussRifle has more range, less minimum range and no heat.... so something is obviously off. (sure only 8 rounds rather than 20)

Elmoth

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #40 on: 13 June 2019, 07:36:58 »
Yeah. Because we all know that a chunk of lead (ok, ferronikel) is more voluminous than a pair of 80-100mm rounds with their needed propellant et al. xD

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #41 on: 13 June 2019, 12:54:27 »
Randumb thought: keeping with the "all heat sinks have to be allocated" idea, what if DHS are only one crit...but only weigh 1.5 tons, compared to SHS?

Maingunnery

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #42 on: 13 June 2019, 14:30:38 »

What about having the type of heatsink being dependent upon the engine type?
STD -> Singles only
Light -> Singles only
XL -> Doubles only
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #43 on: 13 June 2019, 15:33:12 »
I'd approach the problem from the heat sink side, not the weapon side.  I've previously proposed what some have called "half heat sinks" as an improvement vice jumping straight to doubles.  Basically, a half heat sink is half a ton, two critical slots, and sinks one heat.  You still only get 10 in the engine, so there's no "free" boost for 'mechs without extra weight dedicated to heat sinks.  Constructed this way, there's no reason you couldn't mix them with "standard" heat sinks (if you were limited on critical spaces).

Check out how 3025 'mechs look with HHS installed... Warhammers and Marauders get significantly better, and the variants still (mostly) make sense.
So basically "Lightweight" Heat Sink?
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Daryk

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #44 on: 13 June 2019, 17:20:10 »
Yes... I think more of the discussion was in that other thread...

Sartris

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Re: A universe without double heatsinks
« Reply #45 on: 14 June 2019, 16:46:22 »
Randumb thought: keeping with the "all heat sinks have to be allocated" idea, what if DHS are only one crit...but only weigh 1.5 tons, compared to SHS?

i messed around with this except no changes to crits. apart from redeeming early ammo bombs like the crusader and marauder, it instantly ****** up a huge percentage of clans mech over 25-30 tons. with IS especially you have to choose - dhs or endo/ferro. all of a sudden, cool-running AC boats with CASE and energy weapons as backup guns become much more viable.

 

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