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Author Topic: HAG 40  (Read 2832 times)

2nd Dragoon

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HAG 40
« on: 05 July 2019, 00:35:25 »
Is the Hag less or more effective than a Gauss rifle?
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Empyrus

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #1 on: 05 July 2019, 00:49:21 »
You might have meant to post this to ground combat section rather than strategic combat.

To answer your question, normal Gauss Rifles and HAGs have rather different roles.

Gauss Rifles excel at high single-location damage at long range for low heat.
HAGs fire many smaller slugs, causing damage in 5-point clusters like LRMs, plus with cluster-roll bonus for short range bracket and malus at long range bracket (also have anti-air bonus). They have long range but have moderate heat output. This makes them more of generalist weapons, not sniper rifles Gauss Rifles usually are.

HAGs of all sizes have higher total damage potential than Gauss Rifles, but single location damage is generally more dangerous initially, not to mention having headshot potential.

From what i've seen, people don't really regard HAGs as highly as Gauss Rifles. I know i don't much care for them.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #2 on: 05 July 2019, 21:34:25 »
I met a cygnus 2 in a city street at 7 hexes once.

it was not a good time.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #3 on: 06 July 2019, 14:42:57 »
Last time I saw HAG-40s strut their stuff, it was a Marauder IIC that somehow managed to hit with both guns every time it fired, and maxed out the clusters EVERY time. Absolute unholy beast, that was.

I'm a big fan of the Carnivore HAG. The dice love to taunt me and miss far more often than not, but every time I managed to hit a vehicle, that thing was just gone in one hit, either crippled or outright dead.

The HAG-40 is just a chainsaw.
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Ulquiorra9000

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #4 on: 06 July 2019, 22:25:29 »
I started using HAGs a few months ago, such as on the Cygnus, Pariah, and the Bowman 3, and I like them quite well. Long range is pretty long indeed, even if you're slowed down with a -2 cluster hit roll. And up close, any HAG feels pretty awesome to shoot with that +2! I like them pretty well, and they feel really flexible. But as others said, you probably won't totally destroy one location on a fresh mech or big tank with them due to damage spreading out. But if you simply want the sheer volume of firepower...

Empyrus

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #5 on: 06 July 2019, 22:45:13 »
Don't know about others but when it comes to volume of fire, i'd rather have bunch of LRMs. More or less same damage, but you can pack more of them in the same space and mass a single HAG takes. Plus way more flexibility...
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Greatclub

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #6 on: 08 July 2019, 00:25:00 »
I've used them seldom, so take this with a grain of salt, but baring luck they've never impressed me. They peel armour. They don't dig big holes or generate enough hits to truly critseek.

The best use I've seen is on the Thunder Stallion; as the second weapon fired, after the LB20X.

Firesprocket

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #7 on: 13 July 2019, 21:30:30 »
Plus way more flexibility...
It depends on what you are trying to be flexible for.  If you want IDF and special munitions then only LRMs will suffice.  If you want Flak the HAG covers that better.  It should be noted that HAGs have less working against them then do LRMs which can be diminished by AMS and reactive armor.  While there is armor that will half gauss damage it is pretty bad and are less likely to run against it.  The HAG 40 is the best of the bunch, but HAG 20s on the right chassis aren't okay, but nothing to write home about.

grimlock1

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #8 on: 16 July 2019, 09:05:05 »
It depends on what you are trying to be flexible for.  If you want IDF and special munitions then only LRMs will suffice.  If you want Flak the HAG covers that better.  It should be noted that HAGs have less working against them then do LRMs which can be diminished by AMS and reactive armor.  While there is armor that will half gauss damage it is pretty bad and are less likely to run against it.  The HAG 40 is the best of the bunch, but HAG 20s on the right chassis aren't okay, but nothing to write home about.
Doesn't LRM have flak ammo?  LB and conventional autocannons also offer anti-air capability.

I might feel better about them if I played them more but I'm mixed.  They are a LOT of weight and space, tied to a tiny ammo bin.  16 tons of gun, and 3 rounds per ton of ammo.  I'm going to VERY averse to firing at anything beyond 16 hexes, and not wild about taking shots past 9, unless I am packing 3-4 tons of ammo.   That's 20 tons and 14 crits.

Figuring on cluster rolls of 7's you will average 24 points of damage, grouped 5,5,5,5,4.  When I'm probably shooting at an assault mech, that doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings. 

On the other hand, pair with an ER PPC for some long range fencing, then I'll get interested.

I've used them seldom, so take this with a grain of salt, but baring luck they've never impressed me. They peel armour. They don't dig big holes or generate enough hits to truly critseek.

The best use I've seen is on the Thunder Stallion; as the second weapon fired, after the LB20X.
I think Greatclub is right.  They don't generate enough location rolls to kill by TAC/floating crits/head shots. SB Gauss is going to average 9 locations per hit. 

But like I said above, when used as part of the hole-puncher/hole-finder combo they have potential.

I'm more interested in the HAG 30.  The 20 will give you 4 location rolls in close, 3 at mid range, but only...  Cluster roll of 7, -2 for HAG at long range is a 5, for a 20 point attack is 12, which is the same what it would be for medium range.  Huh.  The 20 is looking a bit more appealing.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #9 on: 16 July 2019, 14:33:22 »
Doesn't LRM have flak ammo?  LB and conventional autocannons also offer anti-air capability.
They don't. Which is actually kind of weird, given that missiles (IRL) have been standard anti-air weapon for decades now, i'd expect that to stay true even in the future of the 80s. But i suppose game balance is the reason, gotta have some point in ACs and flak is as good role as any.

Spheroids did develop anti-air Arrow IVs though, i think?
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #10 on: 16 July 2019, 14:59:59 »
HAGs generate significantly less heat for the same tonnage of weapons.  A unit replacing HAGs with LRMs will run out of heat sinks much faster than it will run out of tonnage.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #11 on: 16 July 2019, 15:02:42 »
They don't. Which is actually kind of weird, given that missiles (IRL) have been standard anti-air weapon for decades now, i'd expect that to stay true even in the future of the 80s. But i suppose game balance is the reason, gotta have some point in ACs and flak is as good role as any.

Spheroids did develop anti-air Arrow IVs though, i think?
AA missiles for LRMs without any extra mods to the launchers (like Artemis) would be pretty silly, probably excessively powerful.  Immediately able to convert any LRM into a potent AA weapon just by swapping out an ammo bay.  Vanilla AC's do that too, but they're not that good anyways and don't have the rest of the useful ammo loads that LRMs can get.

And even then, the vanilla ACs are not that good as AA guns as the LB-Xs and HAGs.  Both are later and higher tech advancements, but still...

(Yeah, AA Arrow IVs are a thing.)

Brakiel

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #12 on: 16 July 2019, 18:42:53 »
I tend to view HAGs the same way I view Plasma Rifles: they're rarely the best weapon for any one situation, but they're pretty good weapons for a lot of situations. Yeah, HAGs don't do concentrated damage as well as a Gauss or Heavy Gauss. Yeah, it doesn't crit fish as well as a LBX10 or 20. Et cetera, et cetera. But as one package , it's performance is good enough. I can take long pot shots at aerospace one turn, then hose a tank next turn, then get into a point blank slugfest with an enemy assault mech the turn after that.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #13 on: 17 July 2019, 00:29:42 »
Doesn't LRM have flak ammo?  LB and conventional autocannons also offer anti-air capability.

I might feel better about them if I played them more but I'm mixed.  They are a LOT of weight and space, tied to a tiny ammo bin.  16 tons of gun, and 3 rounds per ton of ammo.  I'm going to VERY averse to firing at anything beyond 16 hexes, and not wild about taking shots past 9, unless I am packing 3-4 tons of ammo.   That's 20 tons and 14 crits.
The first part already got answered elsewhere so I'll address the only the rest.  LBs and SB Gauss are going to be better at swatting things out of the air based off of the number of shots they are likely to produce on the cluster table and consequently force control rolls on any aerospace units in atmospheric conditions.  If you have any interest at all in firing in some flak capacity and solid slugs then you are going to load at least 2 tons of ammo and you are likely going to not exhaust it outside of campaign conditions.  HAGs only have one mode and you can load up on all the ammo you want and not worry about. It has a defined role and sticks with it.  It also, more importantly out ranges most everything on the board of consequence outside of an cER Large Laser.

Quote
Figuring on cluster rolls of 7's you will average 24 points of damage, grouped 5,5,5,5,4.  When I'm probably shooting at an assault mech, that doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings.
It is somewhat inconsequential if you are using a HAG unit in some sort of support roll.  Let other units make the holes and advance behind a screen.  If the screen is more intimidating someone's going to shoot at the screening units first  Once you are in medium range, which isn't usually difficult, that -2 is minimized. 

Quote
I'm more interested in the HAG 30.  The 20 will give you 4 location rolls in close, 3 at mid range, but only...  Cluster roll of 7, -2 for HAG at long range is a 5, for a 20 point attack is 12, which is the same what it would be for medium range.  Huh.  The 20 is looking a bit more appealing.
I don't think I've honestly ever used a HAG 30.  When I've had my choice to us a mech with HAG it is usually a 40.  I have, once played with a HAG 20.  I was handed a Black Hawk F to play last year and I have to say I largely enjoyed it.  Looking at it I thought it was kinda of an odd duck, but I found it to be reasonably effective.  It was in more of a free for all setting, but I was largely ignored because I couldn't do more than a concentrated 7 pt hit, but I was consistent in doing 25-30 damage a turn.

HAGs generate significantly less heat for the same tonnage of weapons.  A unit replacing HAGs with LRMs will run out of heat sinks much faster than it will run out of tonnage.
This is one of those odd times where a couple Streak LRMs make sense depending on the size of HAG you are replacing.  The raw damage is similar and if you don't hit there is no heat concern.  You still lose the flak bonus though.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #14 on: 17 July 2019, 01:31:53 »
LBs and SB Gauss are going to be better at swatting things out of the air based off of the number of shots they are likely to produce on the cluster table and consequently force control rolls on any aerospace units in atmospheric conditions.

For clarification, the number of control rolls an LB or SB can force without having scored any actual critical hits is...one. Extra pellets does not mean extra rolls.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #15 on: 17 July 2019, 07:48:59 »
For clarification, the number of control rolls an LB or SB can force without having scored any actual critical hits is...one. Extra pellets does not mean extra rolls.

does that include the wee LB-2X? ... if so, that pee shooter just picked up a cool feature in my (limited) book.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #16 on: 17 July 2019, 08:01:35 »
That's the main selling point of the LB-2X. :)

(Remember, aero lawn-dart rolls work by asking the ASF player a single yes-or-no question: "Is the amount of damage taken this turn greater than zero?" If yes, you make a single roll. The amount of damage or number of clusters is completely irrelevant, they do not increase the number of rolls(though raw damage can make that single roll worse). The only way to force additional rolls is through the effects of critical hits(or heat, though most heat weapons are too short-ranged to be effective in AA).
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #17 on: 17 July 2019, 09:47:11 »
HAGs generate significantly less heat for the same tonnage of weapons.  A unit replacing HAGs with LRMs will run out of heat sinks much faster than it will run out of tonnage.

That's true, but you're also talking about twice as much tonnage per damage, so you're not saving on heat per damage if you count the opportunity cost in tonnage as eating potential heat sinks. Even with sinks to handle the LRM's excess over the HAG, you're looking at saving a few tons and losing out on one or two crits in the bargain.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #18 on: 17 July 2019, 10:20:02 »
For clarification, the number of control rolls an LB or SB can force without having scored any actual critical hits is...one. Extra pellets does not mean extra rolls.

Well, 19 extra pellets will help the roll.  ^-^

The HAG also has 5 point groupings, which can threshold some light ASFs, which can certainly be handy since they aren't any harder to hit than big, slower ASFs. LB's aren't going to threshold anything (in cluster mode).
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #19 on: 17 July 2019, 10:23:59 »
True. That falls under the category of forcing more rolls through critical hits.

Though if a fighter with less than 41 armor on each facing starts talking fire from HAGs...crits may not be the most immediate concern...
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grimlock1

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #20 on: 17 July 2019, 13:56:41 »
That's the main selling point of the LB-2X. :)

(Remember, aero lawn-dart rolls work by asking the ASF player a single yes-or-no question: "Is the amount of damage taken this turn greater than zero?" If yes, you make a single roll. The amount of damage or number of clusters is completely irrelevant, they do not increase the number of rolls(though raw damage can make that single roll worse). The only way to force additional rolls is through the effects of critical hits(or heat, though most heat weapons are too short-ranged to be effective in AA).
Lawn dart checks come whenever the aero takes damage?  I never realized that. I thought the only was through crits and thresholds. 
In some ways that makes the HAG more appealing.  Trying to to threshold check an aero with 1 point dings is not something I would want to bet on. The HAGs 5 point groupings make make those checks much more probable.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #21 on: 17 July 2019, 14:59:53 »
If you're worried about actually hitting, LB-2X's all the way, with cluster rounds.  They're actually pretty light, unlike HAGs...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #22 on: 17 July 2019, 16:06:01 »
There is an optional rule in StratOps, where only his that can threshold are counted towards the lawn-dart yes/no. I avoid it like the plague, because it renders many fighters immune to most weapons that in-universe are relied on for AA duty.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #23 on: 17 July 2019, 16:16:40 »
I'm glad I've missed that rule until now... I suppose it gives IS ER PPCs yet another reason to exist.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #24 on: 17 July 2019, 17:23:40 »
They don't. Which is actually kind of weird, given that missiles (IRL) have been standard anti-air weapon for decades now, i'd expect that to stay true even in the future of the 80s. But i suppose game balance is the reason, gotta have some point in ACs and flak is as good role as any.

Spheroids did develop anti-air Arrow IVs though, i think?
They do. Sort of. Heat-seeking LRMs can be useful, but only if fired into the rear arc of an Aerospace fighter. They don't function like they "should", IMO. They receive a penalty if fired against any other arc, so they're fairly useless unless you are SPECIFICALLY in the flight path AND have a turret which can twist to the rear arc (or you're lucky enough to have a dumb opponent who flies into one of the 4/6 arcs you can use to torso twist into the Rear arc).
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #25 on: 17 July 2019, 17:42:34 »
Or you have the Extended Torso Twist quirk...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #26 on: 18 July 2019, 09:20:08 »
It is somewhat inconsequential if you are using a HAG unit in some sort of support roll.  Let other units make the holes and advance behind a screen.  If the screen is more intimidating someone's going to shoot at the screening units first  Once you are in medium range, which isn't usually difficult, that -2 is minimized. 
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #27 on: 19 July 2019, 09:37:58 »
HAGs fire many smaller slugs, causing damage in 5-point clusters like LRMs, plus with cluster-roll bonus for short range bracket and minus at long range bracket (also have anti-air bonus). They have long range but have moderate heat output. This makes them more of generalist weapons, not sniper rifles Gauss Rifles usually are.

So if a Gauss Rifle is a rifle, the HAG is a Gauss Shotgun?

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #28 on: 19 July 2019, 10:00:40 »
So if a Gauss Rifle is a rifle, the HAG is a Gauss Shotgun?

With better range
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #29 on: 23 July 2019, 09:50:29 »
Depending on ERA I like Silver Bullet and HAG in Spaceport Gun Emplacemets . A automated 5 gunner firing Flack with dedicated anti air Rifleman like Fire control gets to an adjusted 1 gunnery against flying targets . Outside of these optimized conditions would rather use different weapob choices . The Silver Bullet Gauss acts like a LB 15 X cluster shot with each individual point being separately scored. So given a choice I would not go the HAG. Route .

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #30 on: 23 July 2019, 13:56:29 »
The Silver Bullet Gauss is an Inner Sphere weapon.  The HAG is a Clan weapon.

The SBG also works far less well as a primary weapon than the HAG: it's an excellent crit-seeker but it needs something to punch holes in the enemy.  The HAG 40, while not the most efficient at the task, can do an adequate job taking out armor so long as the target doesn't have Hardened, FL, or Anti-Ballistic armor.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #31 on: 23 July 2019, 16:14:57 »
And against a FL armored target that SB Gauss will do no damage since each pellet is reduced to 0.  HAG will do a reduced amount of damage, which is better than none at all.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #32 on: 23 July 2019, 17:43:30 »
So if a Gauss Rifle is a rifle, the HAG is a Gauss Shotgun?
The Gauss Rifle is a Rifle, the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle is a Shotgun, the AP Gauss Rifle is a really big ferro-nickel Needler, the Magshot is a Kolibri, and the HAGR is a minigun.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #33 on: 23 July 2019, 18:03:02 »
Heh... the HAG is a modern "autocannon"...  ^-^

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #34 on: 23 July 2019, 19:28:20 »
The Silver Bullet Gauss is an Inner Sphere weapon.  The HAG is a Clan weapon.

The SBG also works far less well as a primary weapon than the HAG: it's an excellent crit-seeker but it needs something to punch holes in the enemy.  The HAG 40, while not the most efficient at the task, can do an adequate job taking out armor so long as the target doesn't have Hardened, FL, or Anti-Ballistic armor.

HAG is still pretty good against FL and hardened, only a few specific, specialty weapons are more effective.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #35 on: 24 July 2019, 00:50:22 »
The HAG, especially the HAG 40, is a chainsaw powered belt sander.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #36 on: 24 July 2019, 10:47:50 »
HAG is still pretty good against FL and hardened, only a few specific, specialty weapons are more effective.

Not sure I follow you on HAGs doing well against Hardened.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #37 on: 24 July 2019, 11:01:58 »
Not sure I follow you on HAGs doing well against Hardened.

Large amounts of raw damage are good against Hardened.  The HAG 40 is capable, if not particularly likely in a given turn (27% at short range) of forcing a PSR from damage against Hardened all by its lonesome.  Exactly two other weapons can do that: the Ultra/20 and the MRM-40.  Neither of those are as likely to do it for a couple reasons.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #38 on: 24 July 2019, 15:11:07 »
Large amounts of raw damage are good against Hardened.  The HAG 40 is capable, if not particularly likely in a given turn (27% at short range) of forcing a PSR from damage against Hardened all by its lonesome.  Exactly two other weapons can do that: the Ultra/20 and the MRM-40.  Neither of those are as likely to do it for a couple reasons.
I thought PSRs were based on damage.

Hardened technically absorbs 2 damage per bubble, so an AC/20 would knock off 10 bubbles but would still be 20 damage, which would mean a PSR.  While an AC/20 hitting Ferro-Lamellor would be reduced down to 16 damage, which is under 20, so no PSR.

I may be wrong.  I swear, every other month something I "know" about hardened armor is wrong.
« Last Edit: 24 July 2019, 15:14:44 by Retry »

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #39 on: 24 July 2019, 15:14:56 »
Nope. It was recently clarified that for Hardened units, you need to actually remove 20 dots.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #41 on: 24 July 2019, 17:01:05 »
The net effect is that +1 pilot mod looks much less obnoxious and a liability because you have to take twice as much damage before it becomes an issue

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #42 on: 24 July 2019, 18:35:26 »
It's about the only thing that allows a Stalker II to stay upright.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #43 on: 24 July 2019, 23:05:35 »
Source: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10958.msg1415215#msg1415215
Neat.  Kind of feels like the buff mostly negates that particular +1 piloting modifier penalty though, but I like hardened armor so I'm not complaining.

I was more referring to HAGs having quite a bit of oomph to their shots to get through Hardened armor's thick shell, the brute force approach.  I hadn't even thought about PSRs.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #44 on: 25 July 2019, 05:00:42 »
Neat.  Kind of feels like the buff mostly negates that particular +1 piloting modifier penalty though, but I like hardened armor so I'm not complaining.

At least until you walk on some rubble or turn the wrong corner in a city.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #45 on: 25 July 2019, 09:22:04 »
Against a typical combat vehicle with out ) the rarified FL Armor ( about 20 published rare units  ) . HG 20 average 12 cluster 5 / 5 / 2 which is 3 opportunities for motive critical to immoblize it for aimed shots . The Silver Bullet averages 9 with 9 shots to immoblize the vehicle . The unit with such a weapon should be a highly mobile skermisher unit working in concert with something like a regular gauss rifle or ER PPC to finish off said immobile target . A regular Gauss Rifle is a decisive weapon .  If the opposition force is mostly mechs . A better one is HAG  if it is combat vehicles.   With the common Heavy Ferro Fibrous Armor that combat vehicles sport a 50 ton hovertank say 60 points front and turret can easily move from one hull down postion to another one 7 hexes apart for a +5 defensive mod 3 for movement 2 for hull down .  The Standard Gauss Rifle is better against a non combined arms opposition . A small percentage of cluster weapons are  very nice against combat vehicles and infantry .

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #46 on: 25 July 2019, 12:47:30 »
To be fair, a HAG20 is 10 tons to a SB Gauss’s 15. Even with the Clan’s efficiency bonus, that difference is a bit much. A more apt comparison would be against a HAG30.

Against a typical combat vehicle with out ) the rarified FL Armor ( about 20 published rare units  ) . HG 20 average 12 cluster 5 / 5 / 2 which is 3 opportunities for motive critical to immoblize it for aimed shots . The Silver Bullet averages 9 with 9 shots to immoblize the vehicle . The unit with such a weapon should be a highly mobile skermisher unit working in concert with something like a regular gauss rifle or ER PPC to finish off said immobile target . A regular Gauss Rifle is a decisive weapon .  If the opposition force is mostly mechs . A better one is HAG  if it is combat vehicles.   With the common Heavy Ferro Fibrous Armor that combat vehicles sport a 50 ton hovertank say 60 points front and turret can easily move from one hull down postion to another one 7 hexes apart for a +5 defensive mod 3 for movement 2 for hull down .  The Standard Gauss Rifle is better against a non combined arms opposition . A small percentage of cluster weapons are  very nice against combat vehicles and infantry .

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #47 on: 26 July 2019, 19:15:25 »
Ok HAG 30 5 / 5 / 5 / 3 average while Silver Bullet 9 hits of 1 . So more than double the motor critical chance vs triple the chance with HAG 20 . Still at that point the Normal Clan Gauss wins out . Which is the point of this thread . If you are going for a cluster weapon you very well need one . Since this is a Clan weapon issue make an omni pod one with a standard Gauss and the other with HAG field what the intelligence on the opposition force make up is then call it a day .

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #48 on: 27 July 2019, 03:12:20 »
I've always thought of the HAG as being more general purpose because even with five point clusters only being five points, they are still much better for knocking open holes than the sandblasting spray of LB-X or SBG. I don't necessarily like that design, because five point clusters at long range brings it right into competition with the LRM (and under quite unfavorable terms to boot) but there is some utility to being able to can-open lights when no other option is available.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #49 on: 27 July 2019, 08:05:30 »
Ok HAG 30 5 / 5 / 5 / 3 average while Silver Bullet 9 hits of 1 . So more than double the motor critical chance vs triple the chance with HAG 20 . Still at that point the Normal Clan Gauss wins out . Which is the point of this thread . If you are going for a cluster weapon you very well need one . Since this is a Clan weapon issue make an omni pod one with a standard Gauss and the other with HAG field what the intelligence on the opposition force make up is then call it a day .

I'm going to refer back to one of my previous posts, and repeat that the HAG isn't the best weapon for any one situation, but is a good weapon for many situations. You'll get no argument from me that a SB Gauss is better for AA fire or parking vehicles. But an average of 9 1-point clusters from a 15 ton weapon does not impress me if I need to engage in a straight up shoot out. SB Gauss lacks LBX's solid shot, so you basically have to pay a "weapon tax" in order to have an appropriate hole puncher.

Meanwhile, a HAG may generate fewer clusters if and when I need it, but some is better than none, and it still can deal a good amount of damage. I shouldn't have to rely on perfect intelligence and my opponent cooperating with their force composition for me to choose what kind of Gauss I should mount.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #50 on: 27 July 2019, 20:36:48 »
I'm going to refer back to one of my previous posts, and repeat that the HAG isn't the best weapon for any one situation, but is a good weapon for many situations. You'll get no argument from me that a SB Gauss is better for AA fire or parking vehicles. But an average of 9 1-point clusters from a 15 ton weapon does not impress me if I need to engage in a straight up shoot out. SB Gauss lacks LBX's solid shot, so you basically have to pay a "weapon tax" in order to have an appropriate hole puncher.

Meanwhile, a HAG may generate fewer clusters if and when I need it, but some is better than none, and it still can deal a good amount of damage. I shouldn't have to rely on perfect intelligence and my opponent cooperating with their force composition for me to choose what kind of Gauss I should mount.
I actually prefer the HAG over the Silver Bullet in the AA role, at least against aircraft.  The 5-point clusters are better for getting threshold crits, dealing a lot more overall damage is also good for wearing them down faster (They'll still probably lawn dart first anyways, but still), the marginally better range on the HAG can be useful since range is god for AA guns, and the AA bonus is, IIRC, equivalent.

VTOLs are slightly different beasts, since more cluster hits means more juicy rotor hits, but there's still times when the raw damage the HAG can spit out is just plain nice.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #51 on: 29 July 2019, 02:04:25 »
I don't necessarily like that design, because five point clusters at long range brings it right into competition with the LRM (and under quite unfavorable terms to boot) but there is some utility to being able to can-open lights when no other option is available.
With nothing else going on, yes.  However if your opponent is packing AMS, which isn't terribly uncommon, then that HAG doesn't look so bad.  Reactive armor also is going to reduce the damage, though it's surprisingly not common use at all.  The only thing that is going to effect a HAGs damage is FL, which effects everything equally, and a really bad armor that only the DC seems to use in any quantity.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #52 on: 29 July 2019, 05:56:36 »
With nothing else going on, yes.  However if your opponent is packing AMS, which isn't terribly uncommon, then that HAG doesn't look so bad.  Reactive armor also is going to reduce the damage, though it's surprisingly not common use at all.  The only thing that is going to effect a HAGs damage is FL, which effects everything equally, and a really bad armor that only the DC seems to use in any quantity.

What's wrong with Ballistic Reinforced?

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #53 on: 29 July 2019, 10:14:52 »
It's horribly inefficient in tonnage.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #54 on: 29 July 2019, 11:34:39 »
With nothing else going on, yes.  However if your opponent is packing AMS, which isn't terribly uncommon, then that HAG doesn't look so bad.  Reactive armor also is going to reduce the damage, though it's surprisingly not common use at all.  The only thing that is going to effect a HAGs damage is FL, which effects everything equally, and a really bad armor that only the DC seems to use in any quantity.

I don't disagree, but I don't think that being more effective against AMS-equipped mechs makes up for the HAG being so heavy and eating so many crits. AMS isn't uncommon, but it is far from standard, even in late-era games.

What's wrong with Ballistic Reinforced?

Heavy for the amount of protection it gives on battlefield that still features generous quantities of PPCs, LPLs, ERLLs, etc. I wouldn't say it is "really bad" but I have played all of perhaps three (maybe only two) matches with it. It did its job taming the rather nutso amount of LRMs and ATMs that were coming my way, along with turning an errant UAC/20 from a headcap to a life support hit but that might be outlier performance.


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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #55 on: 29 July 2019, 18:11:44 »
Heavy for the amount of protection it gives on battlefield that still features generous quantities of PPCs, LPLs, ERLLs, etc. I wouldn't say it is "really bad" but I have played all of perhaps three (maybe only two) matches with it. It did its job taming the rather nutso amount of LRMs and ATMs that were coming my way, along with turning an errant UAC/20 from a headcap to a life support hit but that might be outlier performance.

That's kinda my point. I'd reserve "really bad" for something like Heat Dissipating Armor. BRA isn't mind blowing, but it does exactly what it says on the box by blunting 2 of the 3 weapon "food groups". It also lacks any overt drawback like Reflective or Reactive. So for a 25% reduction in points per ton over standard armor, that seems pretty fair. My only complaints would be taking up 10 crit slots and not protecting against armor piercing effects like the Hardened Armor it's derived from.
« Last Edit: 29 July 2019, 18:13:52 by Brakiel »

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #56 on: 29 July 2019, 18:53:19 »
I actually really like BRA and intend to victimize at least one of my local opponents by bringing an entire force with it.  Or maybe half and half with BRA and RFA.  That'd be fun.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #57 on: 29 July 2019, 21:19:30 »
That's kinda my point. I'd reserve "really bad" for something like Heat Dissipating Armor. BRA isn't mind blowing, but it does exactly what it says on the box by blunting 2 of the 3 weapon "food groups". It also lacks any overt drawback like Reflective or Reactive. So for a 25% reduction in points per ton over standard armor, that seems pretty fair. My only complaints would be taking up 10 crit slots and not protecting against armor piercing effects like the Hardened Armor it's derived from.

LB-X autocannons are one of the more popular ballistic weapons (aside from Gauss).  The usual response against BRA, when I was experimenting with it, is "More Dakka!", specifically cluster rounds.  Which made the BRA, effectively, a heavier version of ERA.

That "minimum 1 damage per attack" clause on the "food group armors" can be downright painful...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #58 on: 30 July 2019, 06:53:10 »
I actually really like BRA and intend to victimize at least one of my local opponents by bringing an entire force with it.  Or maybe half and half with BRA and RFA.  That'd be fun.

lol, I didn't realize very many people actually played post-3132 BT, even in MM.

Anyway, I would like HAGs a bit more if they simply clustered differently. Something like 10 point clusters would be cool and help differentiate them (further) from LRMs outside of the mechlab, since apparently they decided to do away with the low-heat nature of Gauss weapons when it came to HAGs.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #59 on: 05 September 2019, 07:02:08 »
I view the bigger HAGs as Clan answers to the Inner Sphere Heavy Gauss Rifle (and its improved sibling). Huge (For clan weapons) and with lots of damage but awful ammo counts per ton. And while they don't hole-punch like the HGR does if you connect with 30-40 damage from one gun the other guy is gonna feel it. Plus, it does have the option of longer range than say an Ultra-20 and it has no Jamming risk (Some folks really hate that idea). Its also kinda a response to the Inner Sphere RAC-5 (does damage in five point clusters, etc). At least until the Clanners broke down and copied the things themselves.

They're really nice against vehicles, with those multiple hits meaning multiple chances to immobilize or knock the crew of a tank out.

Another faction I have to consider is...at least in the table top Battletech is a Dice rolling game. The HAG really rewards lucky dice rolls and you have to do a lot of them but not so damn many like say the stupid amount an LBX 20 cluster shot demands. It falls into a nice middle ground.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #60 on: 05 September 2019, 09:02:55 »
LB-X autocannons are one of the more popular ballistic weapons (aside from Gauss).  The usual response against BRA, when I was experimenting with it, is "More Dakka!", specifically cluster rounds.  Which made the BRA, effectively, a heavier version of ERA.

That "minimum 1 damage per attack" clause on the "food group armors" can be downright painful...
The continued vulnerability of "food group armors" to LB clusters certainly does keep other players honest.  It limits the other player's options.  Maybe they have to carry extra Cluster ammo, giving up hole punching. Maybe they figure it's not worth it to bring that Mad Dog C if they know those Gauss Rifles will be nerfed. Granted, most Clan omnis with a Gauss will also have an ERPPC option but now they have to ride a less forgiving heat curve.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #61 on: 05 September 2019, 14:07:13 »
I view the bigger HAGs as Clan answers to the Inner Sphere Heavy Gauss Rifle (and its improved sibling).

HAGs are explicitly fluffed as being a Clan derivative of the HGR, just choosing to take the weapon development in a radically different direction.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #62 on: 06 September 2019, 22:54:35 »
The continued vulnerability of "food group armors" to LB clusters certainly does keep other players honest.  It limits the other player's options.  Maybe they have to carry extra Cluster ammo, giving up hole punching. Maybe they figure it's not worth it to bring that Mad Dog C if they know those Gauss Rifles will be nerfed. Granted, most Clan omnis with a Gauss will also have an ERPPC option but now they have to ride a less forgiving heat curve.
I don't like it because it promotes the idea that cluster weapons, particularly LB-X's, are the One True Choice, when their probably the weapons most in need of nerffing.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #63 on: 06 September 2019, 23:16:25 »
I don't like it because it promotes the idea that cluster weapons, particularly LB-X's, are the One True Choice, when their probably the weapons most in need of nerffing.
I wouldn't say nerfing since ballistics are really the odd ones out, I'd say the rest of the ballistics should have been up to par to the level of the LB-X series.  But it's decades too late for that.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #64 on: 07 September 2019, 06:48:11 »
I wouldn't say nerfing since ballistics are really the odd ones out, I'd say the rest of the ballistics should have been up to par to the level of the LB-X series.  But it's decades too late for that.
This is specifically nerffing LB-X's in cluster mode, in slug mode their fine. The problem is that very few options offer increased protection against cluster, and in fact might be worse off against cluster, that when adding new options not considering this is bad. Consider Shields, a LB-X pallet does as much damage to the shield as a Heavy Gauss round at short range!

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #65 on: 07 September 2019, 11:04:48 »
Yes, and?

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #66 on: 07 September 2019, 13:45:50 »
Yes, and?
Well, having one of the most common ballistic weapons being unimpeded by the armor type that's supposed to neuter it (to the point that standard armor becomes better on a ton-by-ton basis) feels wrong.  But more importantly feels weird to design and field something which is basically Reactive Armor but with a bonus against Gauss weapons.  It'd have felt much better if it only worked on Ballistics and had equivalent points-per-ton as standard armor just like the other anti-weapon flavors.  At least it wouldn't be worse against LB-X than standard armor, though I'd personally had prefer damage values of 1 be rounded down to 0.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #67 on: 07 September 2019, 13:47:25 »
Standard armor is SUPPOSED to be better on average.  That's why it's "standard"...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #68 on: 07 September 2019, 13:58:24 »
Standard armor is SUPPOSED to be better on average.  That's why it's "standard"...
Other than being completely untrue for literally any other various technologies in Battletech (Standard Fusion vs XLE, Standard Autocannons vs most other flavors, Standard Structure vs Endo Steel, etc), you missed the point.

The higher-tech anti-ballistic armor (Ballistic-Reinforced) is less effective against a very common ballistic weapon (LB-X Clusters) than the lower-tech unspecialized armor.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #69 on: 07 September 2019, 14:08:10 »
Standard engines ARE better than XLs in the most important way: they're less likely to stop working when a side torso is torn off.

Standard Autocannons and structure are better because far more factories can make them.

The problem you point out with so-called "anti-ballistic" armor sounds like a problem with that particular armor, not Standard.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #70 on: 07 September 2019, 14:43:44 »
Standard engines ARE better than XLs in the most important way: they're less likely to stop working when a side torso is torn off.
That is an advantage but that doesn't make them overall superior.  The larger engine allows for more armor or higher speeds which helps avoid side torso losses in the first place.  Which is a big reason why people upgrade SFE designs with XLE designs when industry permits despite the side torso vulnerability and C-Bill hike.

That argument also doesn't apply to the XL Gyro which has its extra bulk in the center torso.  But any crits on the center torso are most likely either going to hit the gyro or the engine anyways, so that's a wash.
Quote
Standard Autocannons and structure are better because far more factories can make them.
If they were better, we'd see a lot more upgrades transitioning from advanced ACs and structures to the standard variety.

I'm not denying that manufacturability is an advantage, but there's much more to it than that.  For instance, Rifle Cannons can be manufactured by even more industries than the Autocannons, but they're not better, as they're mostly obsolete in the 31st century battlefield as a weapon system.  The claim to fame of the standard Autocannon is basically "It's useful enough that it's not completely dead weight on the field at this time while it's simple enough that we can build it just about anywhere".  Which is why it's standard, as opposed to any intrinsic superiority over other autocannons.

Regular ACs are still obsolescent and are poised to be phased out by advanced autocannons when the technology and manufacturing base/supply chain catches up; note how the Clans don't use "standard" autocannons anymore, or lasers or PPCs for that matter.

Quote
The problem you point out with so-called "anti-ballistic" armor sounds like a problem with that particular armor, not Standard.
Yes.  That's the point.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #71 on: 07 September 2019, 15:06:55 »
That's an issue with the armor, not cluster rounds somehow magically being overpowered.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #72 on: 07 September 2019, 15:15:26 »
That's an issue with the armor, not cluster rounds somehow magically being overpowered.
Yes.

That's the point.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #73 on: 07 September 2019, 15:17:46 »
That is an advantage but that doesn't make them overall superior.  The larger engine allows for more armor or higher speeds which helps avoid side torso losses in the first place.  Which is a big reason why people upgrade SFE designs with XLE designs when industry permits despite the side torso vulnerability and C-Bill hike.

That argument also doesn't apply to the XL Gyro which has its extra bulk in the center torso.  But any crits on the center torso are most likely either going to hit the gyro or the engine anyways, so that's a wash.If they were better, we'd see a lot more upgrades transitioning from advanced ACs and structures to the standard variety.

I'd much rather take an early TAC to the engine than the gyro. In the era of double heat sinks an engine hit is irritating. A gyro hit is always crippling. XLgyros have their place in under-armoured light mechs, but not on any serious line machine.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #74 on: 07 September 2019, 15:41:34 »
Regarding Standard ACs... there was a time when 'mechs and vehicles were being fitted with them... right after the fall of the Star League.  The advanced stuff was falling out of production because that's how thin the manufacturing base was at the peak of human civilization.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #75 on: 07 September 2019, 15:50:10 »
This is specifically nerffing LB-X's in cluster mode, in slug mode their fine. The problem is that very few options offer increased protection against cluster, and in fact might be worse off against cluster, that when adding new options not considering this is bad. Consider Shields, a LB-X pallet does as much damage to the shield as a Heavy Gauss round at short range!
Well, having one of the most common ballistic weapons being unimpeded by the armor type that's supposed to neuter it (to the point that standard armor becomes better on a ton-by-ton basis) feels wrong.  But more importantly feels weird to design and field something which is basically Reactive Armor but with a bonus against Gauss weapons.  It'd have felt much better if it only worked on Ballistics and had equivalent points-per-ton as standard armor just like the other anti-weapon flavors.  At least it wouldn't be worse against LB-X than standard armor, though I'd personally had prefer damage values of 1 be rounded down to 0.

Notice how that wasn't the point of the original post?

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Retry

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #76 on: 07 September 2019, 16:34:02 »
I'd much rather take an early TAC to the engine than the gyro. In the era of double heat sinks an engine hit is irritating. A gyro hit is always crippling. XLgyros have their place in under-armoured light mechs, but not on any serious line machine.
There's some good, canon line machines that have XL Gyros.  I've done a lot with them, the XL Gyros don't uniquely endanger the mechs and brings a lot more good than bad.
Quote
Notice how that wasn't the point of the original post?
Okay, once again.

This was my original post on the the subject of BRA in this thread on page two (which apparently has led to a slight derailment from the original topic.):
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LB-X autocannons are one of the more popular ballistic weapons (aside from Gauss).  The usual response against BRA, when I was experimenting with it, is "More Dakka!", specifically cluster rounds.  Which made the BRA, effectively, a heavier version of ERA.

That "minimum 1 damage per attack" clause on the "food group armors" can be downright painful...
I was not referring to any magical powers inherent to cluster ammo, I was clearly referring to the specific minimum-1 damage point issue from the very beginning.  LB-X clusters isn't the only weapon that benefits: Silver Bullet Gauss, low-power BA ballistic weapons (LMG, David GR, etc), and 'Mech-scale LMGs benefit too.

So, yes, my original point was on BRA and its issue.

Daryk

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #77 on: 07 September 2019, 16:55:00 »
Well, here was the OP:
Is the Hag less or more effective than a Gauss rifle?

Not much to do with BRA, there, really...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #78 on: 07 September 2019, 17:09:25 »
Well, here was the OP:
Not the OP's point, my point (which has gotten everything off-tangent, apparently)

Firesprocket

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #79 on: 14 September 2019, 22:43:51 »
Got in a game today with a Canis 2 with its pair of HAG-20s.  I think I'm beginning to come around to it more than the HAG-40.  The monster weight and low shots per ton make it extremely difficult for me justify taking a large HAG on a mech.  The HAG-20 made a nice complement to the other weapons on the mech and I felt, given the original design, were as good or better than the Ultra 10s due to their superior range.

 

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