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Author Topic: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?  (Read 3127 times)

Frabby

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HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« on: 12 July 2019, 09:01:43 »
The Aurigan Reach as detailed in the Arano Housebook has a surprising number of HPGs on periphery worlds. That got me thinking, and another question came up:
Is there a map anywhere of the IS showing all worlds with a class A (50 ly) or class B (30 ly) HPG station, and what other worlds they can send to? That map would barely have changed between 3025 and 3132; and after 3132 seeing where HPG traffic is still possible would presumably improve my strategic parsing of the map in the Dark Age a lot...

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Empyrus

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #1 on: 12 July 2019, 12:34:30 »
Are the WoB Super HPGs working post-Jihad and in use? The ones with ridiculous range?

Also, does Earth have more than one HPG? Somehow i'd imagine it would have, being the center of the Star League and all that.
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snakespinner

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #2 on: 13 July 2019, 06:40:34 »
I saw a list of class A and class B HPG's many years ago, but I cannot remember where.
The class A's had a precentor in charge and were on capital's and class B's were on all important worlds.
But I have never seen a map.
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skiltao

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #3 on: 13 July 2019, 14:00:41 »
I'm not aware of such a map.

The 20 Year Update (and maybe one of the later books) printed a map of ComGuard headquarters. It would make sense for these headquarters to be in systems with A stations, and WolfNet referred to the map as the ComStar "clock" which suggests it might have something to do with ComStar's transmission schedule.

I *think* ComStar got the Houses to pay for a bunch of station upgrades following the Fourth Succession War, but it's been a while since I checked. I also vaguely remember something about the links between Tharkad and New Avalon getting upgraded by the FCCW to allow for two-way real time transmissions.

Also, I don't think the network really needs an A station every 50LY to function as described. Loops of B stations would expand the area each A station serves without adding much delay.
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SCC

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #4 on: 14 July 2019, 04:34:02 »
Also, does Earth have more than one HPG? Somehow i'd imagine it would have, being the center of the Star League and all that.
Sarna seems to think so.

I saw a list of class A and class B HPG's many years ago, but I cannot remember where.
The class A's had a precentor in charge and were on capital's and class B's were on all important worlds.
But I have never seen a map.
Pretty sure that every station is over seen by a Precenter. Also every planet in the IS has at least a Class B station.

I'm not aware of such a map.

The 20 Year Update (and maybe one of the later books) printed a map of ComGuard headquarters. It would make sense for these headquarters to be in systems with A stations, and WolfNet referred to the map as the ComStar "clock" which suggests it might have something to do with ComStar's transmission schedule.

I *think* ComStar got the Houses to pay for a bunch of station upgrades following the Fourth Succession War, but it's been a while since I checked. I also vaguely remember something about the links between Tharkad and New Avalon getting upgraded by the FCCW to allow for two-way real time transmissions.

Also, I don't think the network really needs an A station every 50LY to function as described. Loops of B stations would expand the area each A station serves without adding much delay.
Sarna has an image of the IS Clock, is a geographical breakup of the IS, got nothing to do with the transmission schedule, but presumably the planets seen on it, which control sectors of space, have Class A stations. No upgrades are need for two-way real time transmissions. A Class A station needs to be within 50ly of another Class A to make building really worth any thing.

skiltao

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #5 on: 14 July 2019, 12:40:51 »
Also every planet in the IS has at least a Class B station.

Pacifica (Chara III), Trellwan, Verthandi and Styx all seem to lack a ComStar presence. I don't think they're meant to be unique.

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Sarna has an image of the IS Clock, is a geographical breakup of the IS, got nothing to do with the transmission schedule

What makes you say that? Are you just assuming it doesn't because the text doesn't say so outright?

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No upgrades are need for two-way real time transmissions.

Real time video/trivid transmissions are not part of an HPG's normal operations. What makes you say the stations involved did not require upgrades?

HPG transmissions are one-way. To run back and forth simultaneously you'd need two sets of HPGs. What makes you say additional HPGs were not built/upgraded (either in the same star systems as existing HPGs or around new stars) to establish the second arm of that circuit?

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A Class A station needs to be within 50ly of another Class A to make building really worth any thing.

What makes you say that? An A station could transmit to seven B stations, each once a week, who then pass their messages on to another A station.
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Daryk

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #6 on: 14 July 2019, 14:58:15 »
I'm pretty sure it doesn't take an HPG to receive an HPG transmission, so you really don't need two HPGs for a "real time" transmission.

Empyrus

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #7 on: 14 July 2019, 15:55:14 »
I'm pretty sure it doesn't take an HPG to receive an HPG transmission, so you really don't need two HPGs for a "real time" transmission.
Yup, HPG is only required for transmission. As for real time transmission, you need two if both parties want to talk, there is no much point in real time one-way transmission (simpler and cheaper to record a speech and send the recording that transmit while it happens).
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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #8 on: 14 July 2019, 16:03:45 »
What makes you say that? Are you just assuming it doesn't because the text doesn't say so outright?

The so-called ComStar Clock is "a graphic representation of the Inner Sphere network with regards to the network’s prime focus, the Class A stations, and all routing priorities", according to William Blane (Shadows of Faith, chapter 7). He and Fake Thomas go on to describe how the clockface is redrawn depending on where the focal point of the network is and how there can be multiple clocks with different focal points.

Also, 20 Year Update describes the clock as a graphic used to more easily discuss Com Guard deployments. All V-sized groups in the CG listing have their theater of deployment described in terms of the clockface; e.g. "1st V-iota (Dieron Theater_ from 1 to 2 on the "Inner Sphere Clock' )". Of course, that same book also claims the clock is a Wolf's Dragoons invention.

dgorsman

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #9 on: 14 July 2019, 16:44:45 »
I think the latter is also referenced elsewhere, possibly in FM:ComStar or the old ComStar sourcebook.
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skiltao

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #10 on: 14 July 2019, 22:23:59 »
Yep, the ComStar sourcebook does mention "the clock" too.

The so-called ComStar Clock is "a graphic representation of the Inner Sphere network with regards to the network’s prime focus, the Class A stations, and all routing priorities", according to William Blane (Shadows of Faith, chapter 7). He and Fake Thomas go on to describe how the clockface is redrawn depending on where the focal point of the network is and how there can be multiple clocks with different focal points.

Also, 20 Year Update describes the clock as a graphic used to more easily discuss Com Guard deployments. All V-sized groups in the CG listing have their theater of deployment described in terms of the clockface; e.g. "1st V-iota (Dieron Theater_ from 1 to 2 on the "Inner Sphere Clock' )".

Can't tell if your intent is to support the link between schedule and geography, to contradict any potential link, or to offer supplemental information without taking a position either way.

Nothing there contradicts the idea that a graphical representation might reflect the structure (schedule) of the network. That "routing priorities" remark might suggest a link with scheduling. Edit: Actually, if the clock gets redrawn with a new center when the structural center of the network moves, that would mean the clock does reflect the structure, which necessarily means it reflects the scheduling in some way. /Edit

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Of course, that same book also claims the clock is a Wolf's Dragoons invention.

It says they use a convenient jargon. It doesn't in any way imply that their jargon is unrelated to the network.
« Last Edit: 14 July 2019, 22:27:41 by skiltao »
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SCC

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #11 on: 15 July 2019, 00:05:56 »
Pacifica (Chara III), Trellwan, Verthandi and Styx all seem to lack a ComStar presence. I don't think they're meant to be unique.
Everything I've ever seen says that HPG coverage in the IS is 100%, what's your source for saying these planets don't have HPG's?

What makes you say that? Are you just assuming it doesn't because the text doesn't say so outright?
This is the IS Clock, hosted over at Sarna, nothing to do with transmission schedule, it's simpley a way of breaking up the IS into areas:


Real time video/trivid transmissions are not part of an HPG's normal operations. What makes you say the stations involved did not require upgrades?

HPG transmissions are one-way. To run back and forth simultaneously you'd need two sets of HPGs. What makes you say additional HPGs were not built/upgraded (either in the same star systems as existing HPGs or around new stars) to establish the second arm of that circuit?
As other's have stated, you don't need a HPG to receive, only transmit. And there's no need to have stations transmitting both ways, the two different transmissions simpley take different paths

What makes you say that? An A station could transmit to seven B stations, each once a week, who then pass their messages on to another A station.
There's no point to putting one there then, you don't get anything out of it.

skiltao

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #12 on: 15 July 2019, 03:48:29 »
Everything I've ever seen says that HPG coverage in the IS is 100%, what's your source for saying these planets don't have HPG's?

Decision at Thunder Rift, Mercenary's Star, Warrior: En Garde, and whichever Warrior book had Melissa almost kidnapped. The original claim that the IS is 100% covered (which comes from the first edition RPG, concurrent with those novels) only counts the 450-ish "actively settled" worlds, and doesn't include every single named world or colony.

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This is the IS Clock, hosted over at Sarna, nothing to do with transmission schedule, it's simpley a way of breaking up the IS into areas:

A transmission schedule *would* break the IS up into geographic areas.

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As other's have stated, you don't need a HPG to receive, only transmit. And there's no need to have stations transmitting both ways, the two different transmissions simpley take different paths

Right. Two paths, both of which would require upgrades, and both of which might be shortened by building new, better-placed stations.

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There's no point to putting one there then, you don't get anything out of it.

Class "A" stations can be useful even if they're not in range of each other, and not every "B" station needs to be aimed at an "A" station. See attached diagram.
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mbear

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #13 on: 22 July 2019, 11:40:28 »
IIRC, the old House books had the ComStar HPG class listed for each system listed in their "Atlas" section. That may be what you're remembering Frabby.

Frabby

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #14 on: 22 July 2019, 12:32:00 »
IIRC, the old House books had the ComStar HPG class listed for each system listed in their "Atlas" section. That may be what you're remembering Frabby.
I was genuinely asking if anybody had compiled such a map, because no official sourcebook ever provided one. I'm not even sure if we have canonical HPG information on every system in the IS. We didn't track this information in the SUCK, unfortunately. (Or did we?)
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Ogra_Chief

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #15 on: 22 July 2019, 19:09:22 »
I was genuinely asking if anybody had compiled such a map, because no official sourcebook ever provided one. I'm not even sure if we have canonical HPG information on every system in the IS. We didn't track this information in the SUCK, unfortunately. (Or did we?)

Given all the source material that's a lot of research. Presumably the network would change by Era as well. Also, Comstar was known to shutter stations, so there may be one in system, but non-operational. But, such a map would be a usefully informative. I may pull out my old Comstar source book and take peak.
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pat_hdx

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #16 on: 23 July 2019, 04:22:22 »
You can switch on a view of the HPG network in MekHQ. Don't know how it was compiled.

Thunderbolt

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #17 on: 31 July 2019, 11:16:43 »
Everything I've ever seen says that HPG coverage in the IS is 100%, what's your source for saying these planets don't have HPG's?
This is the IS Clock, hosted over at Sarna, nothing to do with transmission schedule, it's simpley a way of breaking up the IS into areas:

As other's have stated, you don't need a HPG to receive, only transmit. And there's no need to have stations transmitting both ways, the two different transmissions simpley take different paths
There's no point to putting one there then, you don't get anything out of it.
That IS "clock" has ~50 systems listed...

And there are about ~50 systems harboring Class-A HPGs across the IS...

so the "clock" is listing all the Class-A HPGs throughout the IS ?

If so, tangentially, appears no Class-A's survived the "Gray Monday" blackout ?

ocherstone

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #18 on: 22 August 2019, 20:51:30 »
That IS "clock" has ~50 systems listed...

And there are about ~50 systems harboring Class-A HPGs across the IS...

so the "clock" is listing all the Class-A HPGs throughout the IS ?

If so, tangentially, appears no Class-A's survived the "Gray Monday" blackout ?

That's 72 (6x12), have we ever had a more precise number than "over 50"?  It'd make sense those hubs are A class.

Thunderbolt

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #19 on: 31 August 2019, 11:14:33 »
That's 72 (6x12), have we ever had a more precise number than "over 50"?  It'd make sense those hubs are A class.
and maybe a first-circuit world has a primary A class + secondary B class HPGs, accounting for any descriptions of them having B class installations (too) ?

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #20 on: 31 August 2019, 16:06:20 »
Didn't the original periphery sourcebook reference Class C stations?
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ocherstone

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #21 on: 31 August 2019, 16:20:08 »
Didn't the original periphery sourcebook reference Class C stations?

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=9576.0

Cray says there were, but it was a mistake.

mikecj

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #22 on: 31 August 2019, 20:44:44 »
Thanks!
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Thunderbolt

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #23 on: 31 August 2019, 23:34:28 »
First Circuit star systems may have been chosen as such because they were especially grand, offering numerous habitable / terraformable worlds

The main "prime" world might have the Class A, the others Class B or maybe even C ?

DOC_Agren

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #24 on: 14 September 2019, 12:26:25 »
Didn't the original periphery sourcebook reference Class C stations?
and there were Class D too I beleive
of course now they been "replaced" with just B's now, because Comstar grades on the curve.   >:D

My non-canon answer would be Class C were B but only send once a week, D would have been B only send once every 2 weeks.   
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Frabby

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #25 on: 14 September 2019, 12:59:59 »
To wit, there are no class C or D HPGs (these only exist as class A and B). But there may still be class C and D ComStar stations. I suggested to Cray these might represent a ComStar presence without HPG that can still receive HPG communication, but would rely on pony express message transfer or a temporarily available "stopgap" mobile HPG to send out messages. Cray was agreeable to the idea. (This was in an open forum discussion iirc, but it may have been a non-public factchecker discussion or even via private messages.)
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Phalanx

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #26 on: 14 September 2019, 13:37:04 »
To wit, there are no class C or D HPGs (these only exist as class A and B). But there may still be class C and D ComStar stations. I suggested to Cray these might represent a ComStar presence without HPG that can still receive HPG communication, but would rely on pony express message transfer or a temporarily available "stopgap" mobile HPG to send out messages. Cray was agreeable to the idea. (This was in an open forum discussion iirc, but it may have been a non-public factchecker discussion or even via private messages.)

Campaign Ops says that Class C and D represent HPG "service" via a pony express(Every 3 months for C, and every 6 for D).

However, there would still need to an onplanet secure facility for people to send/receive their messages. From the Comstar Sourcebook, we know that the HPG Compound was a Comstar creation and not every world has one(although you can bet that every 'A Service' world has one by the 3050s).

On most worlds without a Compound, the Comstar facility is likely a giant mall. This could be filled with various terminals, where people wait in line. But it could also be efficiently divided by function based on message type(So a military officer does not have to wait in line with a Grandmother sending a money to her grandchild in college).

But on D-service worlds(and poorer C's), its more like a Post Office in a rural area.

On worlds with No HPG Service,this is where there is no Comstar presence at all(perhaps a few undercover operatives to keep tabs). The world is too poor and not strategically important enough for Comstar to make the commitment. Comstar also has an anti-periphery bias for much of its history. Finally, some worlds simply do not trust Comstar because of its association with the Star League obviously has a negative effect in the Periphery.

The local facilities and personnel required would obviously depend on service level, with an A-Class HPG Compound being the most expensive, and restoring an old one costing less than building a brand new one.

A Battletech Blogger(might have been Skilltao) made a post talking about HPGs and why no one had thought about building multiple HPGs on a single world and you could have near-Realtime communication from one end of the Inner Sphere.

I enjoyed the post, but I immediately realized that someone had and did exactly that.

Katrina Steiner.

After the FedCom Civil War began, Katrina implemented her HPG "Command Circuit" between Tharkad and New Avalon.
Ignoring the politics mollifying OTHER world and regional leaders who would seek a dip in their budgets to put HPGs on planets which already had them.

So Katrina commissioned, new B-Class HPGs(and maybe a few A's on worlds with A's) at incredible cost.

In the "Squaring the Circle" thread, there was discussion about how hard it actually is to defend a planet, so having TWO HPGs would not make things easier. The HPG pair would need to be relatively close for the Realtime Communication link to work.

So what happened to the 2nd HPG on these worlds?

Were some destroyed in the Jihad?

Were others taken offline by Yvonne and Peter to pay for reconstruction of each realm?(maybe breaking down the equipment than 'selling' it to Comstar as a downpayment for a series of reconstruction loans?)

Why didn't Devlin Stone do the same thing for the Republic of the Sphere?

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Frabby

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #27 on: 14 September 2019, 16:37:57 »
Campaign Ops! Yes, that's where Cray wrote it. Thanks for finding the reference!
(I'm sitting in a hotel room with only my stupid smartphone and no access to my BT stuff, so was working from memory.)

And for the record, Cray had arrived at his conclusions independent from me. I claim no credit for any of this. I just remembered how Cray told me he had written or was going to write something like this into a rulebook.
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skiltao

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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #28 on: 14 September 2019, 16:49:13 »
I don't recall blogging about it, but it was discussed a little earlier in this thread. Maybe in whatever the other summer HPG thread was too, and quite possibly at some point during Mendrugo's grand fiction review.

The HPG pair would need to be relatively close for the Realtime Communication link to work.

Would it?

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So what happened to the 2nd HPG on these worlds?

Did anything happen to them?
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Re: HPG map of the Inner Sphere?
« Reply #29 on: 15 September 2019, 08:42:52 »
Campaign Ops says that Class C and D represent HPG "service" via a pony express(Every 3 months for C, and every 6 for D).
CO speaks of annual services for D-rated periphery worlds, actually.
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