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Author Topic: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare  (Read 7421 times)

truetanker

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #60 on: 13 August 2019, 18:34:08 »
it's funny you should say that because i was playing around with something very similar. you've basically created an update to the BattleDroids infantry.

I was imagining a dude in each squad with an SRM-1 like a modern Javelin missile launcher.



the other option is that the squad has a small motor-assisted "wagon" they can pull the weapon on.

You do know there is this from AToW Companion:

Missile Launcher (Wire-Guided) IS / CLAN (C) Medium / Support (M) 2 1.08 95.0 KG / 22.0 KG (1) 4

Meaning, Support weapon 6 hex range 1.08 damage ( or just 1 per Squad ) weighs 95 KG w/ each round at 22 KG each and takes 3 troopers to move and 1 to fire. ( 4 total )

So this means I can fire with one and have 3 troopers using primary weapons unless I need to deploy ( move ) somewhere!

Unlike :

SRM Launcher (Light)
(Non-Inferno Ammo) IS / Clan (C) Medium / Support (M) 2 0.57 10.0 kg / 9 kg (2) 1
(Inferno Ammo) IS / Clan (C) Medium / Support (M)F 2 0.34 10.0 kg / 9 kg (2) 1

Which is a reloadable single missile launcher.

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RifleMech

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #61 on: 14 August 2019, 03:06:05 »
And by and large I'd suggest even that was too generous to the infantry. Its a game tweak that doesn't fit in with the established universe and it only adds unnecessary conversion systems such as the "only does damage on rolls of 2 or 12"

But, just my opinion.

I wouldn't say too generous. The most damage they'd do was 2 points. As for the other weapons rolling the dice is a lot simpler than all the math we have now.

Still I'd love to have stats for these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha  14 of these per platoon. Each with 100 or more arrows.  >:D

Terrace

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #62 on: 14 August 2019, 09:43:52 »
Honestly, I'm currently of the opinion that the only Infantry weapons that could hurt 'Mech-grade armor at all are various non-machine gun Support Weapons. Support Laser, SRM Launcher, Recoilless Rifles, etc. Small-arms, such as Auto-Rifles and the like, will have to wait until the armor is blasted off before they can do anything, upon which they'd just offer crit rolls.

Talen5000

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #63 on: 14 August 2019, 14:23:41 »
Honestly, I'm currently of the opinion that the only Infantry weapons that could hurt 'Mech-grade armor at all are various non-machine gun Support Weapons. Support Laser, SRM Launcher, Recoilless Rifles, etc. Small-arms, such as Auto-Rifles and the like, will have to wait until the armor is blasted off before they can do anything, upon which they'd just offer crit rolls.

I'd go further....missile based support weapons can damage Mech weapons.

Actually, what I think should happen is BT introduce the concept of scale damage and treat it as such across the games.

So, you'd have personal scale 0-10, support scale 0-10, and Mech scale.
A weapon assigned to one scale cannot harm the scale above UNLESS it has an AntiArmour special feature. Otherwise, its a X scale weapon designed for X scale targets. Anti Armour gives the weapon an AP rating on the next scale up.

The unified BAR scale the tries to keep to tight now just doesn't have the granularity such a system needs.This system means you gain that granularity and don't need to worry about damage conversion
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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #64 on: 15 August 2019, 02:42:09 »
I've given my reasons why I have hard attack values on most of the small arms and support weapons, and that will stay.

I've been thinking a bit more on morale due to Daemion's post.  I think it may be possible to implement it in a more satisfying way than Total Warfare/Tactical Operations does it, where it's basically a binary effect (Either you're calm as far as a grunt in a warzone can be, or the sky is on fire.).

I took heavy inspiration from Wargame: Red Dragon (again).

Say, every unit has a "Morale Scale" somewhat similar to a heat scale.  If you're sitting around in an idyllic field and nothing is happening, the number on the morale scale goes down.  If a big stompy robot 30 meters away with ornamental skulls and flamethrowers decides to turn your platoon-mates into barbecue in the middle of said field, the number on the morale scale goes up, and a higher number means not good things.

Better trained units have calmer nerves and can recover these "morale points" faster.  A green militia squad might only passively dissipate, say, 2 points per turn, while an elite squad might dissipate 5 points per turn.

The scale looks something like this:
16-20:"Calm": Unit behaves as normal.
11-15:"Worried": Anxiety begins to impact the unit's marksmanship, +1 penalty to attacks and PSRs.
6-10:"Shaken": Unit's marksmanship has decayed considerably, +2 penalty to attacks and PSRs.
1-5:"Panicked": The Unit is barely able to fight and is at risk of routing, +3 penalty to attacks and PSRs.
(Optional)0-:"Routed": Unit follows Forced Withdraw Rules.

I'm also of the mind that one should get bonus morale point dissipation when you're higher on the scale, like +1/+2/+3 for worried/shaken/panicked.  That would let poorly trained infantry rise to Worried or even Shaken if something scary like a 'Mech is in sight without much else going on, without boiling all the way to Panicking just from a Battlemech sitting there.  Until said Battlemech starts shooting, anyways.

Anyways, for infantry, things that can affect the Morale Points recovery or loss can include but isn't necessarily limited to:

Having enemy BA or Tanks in line of sight: -1
Having enemy Protomechs in line of sight: -2
Having enemy Battlemechs in line of sight: -3
"Distracting" enemy in line of sight: -1
Having Anti-Mech Training: +1
Having Allied Tanks or Protomechs in line of sight: +1
Having Allied Battlemechs in line of sight: +2
Artillery Shells landing on mapboard: -1
Under Attack: -1
Under Attack by Physical Attack: -3
Under Attack by Inferno or Flamer: -4
Taking Casualties: -3
Hit by Artillery: -2
Hit by Supressive Fire: -1
(Suppressive Fire could be a special attack made by Burst Weapons, which forfeits "actual" damage in exchange for a big to-hit bonus and damage to morale on a successful hit)
Took 1/4 casualties in one round: -5
Took 1/2 casualties in one round: -10



You could even apply some of this to non-infantry units, like Battlemechs.  You'd probably have somewhat different modifiers since the Mechwarrior is the king of the battlefield, but even their pilots are human.  (Unless your Manei Domini, in which case jury's still out.)  I can imagine getting so much as being targeted by an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle would unnerve a pilot, even if they miss.  Taking shots to the head, getting a limb suddenly ripped off, having an ammo casing go kaboom, taking critical hits, getting swarmed by a bunch of cheeky Toads are all not so good for the psyche.  So it would be reasonable for green, regular, and even hardened 'Mechwarriors to begin buckling under fire if the situation gets intense enough.  It'd be a bit more to keep track of though.  Possibly worth an entirely new thread if I pursue it.

Nicoli

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #65 on: 20 August 2019, 10:01:40 »
About the only changes I would do for infantry would be to add separate damage lines for each weapon a squad carries and make the small arms only effective against infantry and battle armor. Leave the support weapons and such as is. Details them out a bit more without the need for another table.

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #66 on: 02 September 2019, 00:39:55 »
I ended up mocking up some stats for BA versions of the support weapons.  Mostly just for fun, or at least I'm not going to actually redo every single canon suit to fit them.  It didn't turn out half bad.  I don't have it on the front page but if anyone is interested here I can try to find a way to post the whole database on it.

Daemion

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #67 on: 06 September 2019, 14:32:23 »
About the only changes I would do for infantry would be to add separate damage lines for each weapon a squad carries and make the small arms only effective against infantry and battle armor. Leave the support weapons and such as is. Details them out a bit more without the need for another table.

I tried this once, because I wanted hover-bike squads using MechInf, and I found that the support weapons don't do enough damage.  I did contemplate leaving the modified damage based on the primary, but that makes little sense when you decide to use something other than the auto-rifle.

It's gonna take a little more nuance than a simple this or that with the current values.  Which is why I did like the idea of using the BA damage values for the corresponding conventional support weapons, if you could find them, or simply going back to the old BattleDroids application of them doing the same damage against armored targets as their Mech/BA counterparts. 

Aside: However, for that bonus, there needs to be a drawback, and I think that any unit being able to pick off the team operating the support weapon, or the weapon itself, should be a given.  This could be negated when they're in cover, like in buildings, if we want to add complications. 


Yes, I agree that the standard troop weapons should only be usable against conventional infantry, and maybe be able to crib a BA Unit.  But, the standard damage values are too static for an infantry fire-fight, and shouldn't be relegated to a hit/miss roll as per standard.  Personally, I still feel infantry-on-infantry combat should be completely overhauled, and maybe relegated to a completely different level of system, or two.

I love the idea of having a BA unit running around like a Mech, while infantry grunts have to worry about mobility hits like tanks.  And, a Mech or Tank is the equivalent to an aerospace strike or dropship or really fast mobile structure.

I also like the idea of mapping out floors for buildings, and even dropships, for those boarding actions or objective seizure operations.

But, with all that imagery in my head, I understand the need for quickly resolving fire-fights on the Armored combat level, much like I recognized the need for a need for resolving Mech Battles from the Armored Combat Game inside a single minute's turn on a regimental level for large scale conflicts.  Some people don't want to dial in and out of certain scales all the time.

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Thunderbolt

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #68 on: 07 September 2019, 12:54:16 »
Anyone ever considered something similar to Squad Leader or Panzergrenader for the BTU ?  Leaders, morale, support weapons, combined attacks ??  Could help emphasize and flesh out the role of futuristic BTU infantry units ??

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #69 on: 07 September 2019, 14:56:14 »
Anyone ever considered something similar to Squad Leader or Panzergrenader for the BTU ?  Leaders, morale, support weapons, combined attacks ??  Could help emphasize and flesh out the role of futuristic BTU infantry units ??
I don't think I'd go to quite the complexity of Squad Leader.  There's been some discussion on implementing morale in some form.  The thread is basically about overhauling the infantry's primary and support weapons and is at the beginning of the thread.

Retry

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #70 on: 07 September 2019, 15:27:31 »
Added a Spreadsheet version of the infantry weapons & equipment table to the front page.  The version includes a "prototype" for BA versions of the support weapons, which has the same combat specs of the conventional infantry versions.

The BA versions have additional specs for the weapon weight (in kgs) and the ammo weight (in kg/shot).  The crit space taken up is the same as the Conventional Infantry's crew requirement for the support weapon, so it's not listed separately.  I also added a few more weapons that I thought of that aren't listed in the OP (such as an infantry-scale ATM launcher).

Daryk

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #71 on: 07 September 2019, 15:42:59 »
How did you convert 1E crew requirements?  That might be an argument to use 1E as 2, 2 as 3, etc...

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #72 on: 07 September 2019, 16:40:37 »
How did you convert 1E crew requirements?  That might be an argument to use 1E as 2, 2 as 3, etc...
Right now I'm just calling "E" as a special effect with the same effects as in Total Warfare/Tech Manual (+1 to-hit malus at 0 range).  Bulky enough that a single crewman has some extra issues in CQC, but not so bulky that it requires a second crewman.

Daryk

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #73 on: 07 September 2019, 16:55:58 »
Hmm... better than how the rules do it for exoskeletons/BA with Armored Gloves, then...

Thunderbolt

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #74 on: 07 September 2019, 23:08:06 »
I don't think I'd go to quite the complexity of Squad Leader.  There's been some discussion on implementing morale in some form.  The thread is basically about overhauling the infantry's primary and support weapons and is at the beginning of the thread.
what about leaders & leadership and maybe encumbrance?  Battle Troop Leader ?

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #75 on: 08 September 2019, 10:37:55 »
what about leaders & leadership and maybe encumbrance?  Battle Troop Leader ?
Other than how Encumbrance was already done, no.

Thunderbolt

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #76 on: 08 September 2019, 11:12:51 »
Other than how Encumbrance was already done, no.
customer's always right

optional rule ?  Think leadership adds a lot, could integrate with the RPG

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #77 on: 08 September 2019, 11:49:19 »
customer's always right

optional rule ?  Think leadership adds a lot, could integrate with the RPG
You could probably implement leadership in some fashion as an optional rule.  But you'd have to come up with appropiate bonuses, maluses, and probably a way to do the same for BA suits.  Since I'm trying to make infantry more interesting for TW-scale play, I'd have to think of a bonus appropriate for that scale.  The only thing I can think of is a bonus/malus to a "morale" system but I haven't even got around to testing that.

Daemion

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #78 on: 09 September 2019, 09:52:02 »
Optional yes.

A suggestion, but Infantry could do to use a crew-stunned effect much like vehicles. They are in the open, after all.  The stunned effect would be different for them, I think, as they can fire at, say, the nearest target, but can't move, to represent the chaos of broken leadership.

Assuming we're sticking with the body-count damage-track of the common game, we could have it applied as a singular critical hit chance roll, where they need an 8+ to be stunned, and apply a modifier to the dice roll based on the casualties taken. This would make anti-infantry fire much more devastating.

The reason I suggest they can only attack the nearest enemy is because I imagine they're trying to regroup and are not taking commands from you as the Mech/Field commander, so they're outside of any control.

They make a check during the end step of each turn after the turn they were stunned, and the target is variable, like PSRs. So, a Platoon, even though it's reduced to a squad on a prior turn and failed their morale test then, if it takes no casualties this turn, then on a standard 7 or less roll, it's fine, regains morale and loses stun status for next turn.

We can even add skill rating modifiers for Green (+1), Regular (+/-0), Veteran (-1), and Elite (-2).

That's my KISS way of doing it.
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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #79 on: 09 September 2019, 15:31:46 »
Some sort of stunning effect could be interesting.  Could be connected with suppressing fire.

I think I want to test what I currently have first, and see if it sticks before I try adding anything new.  Unfortunately, it's going to be really difficult for me to do so in the near future.

Daryk

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #80 on: 09 September 2019, 18:25:00 »
The "crit roll" idea sounds interesting.  It definitely works if you're using squad deployment, but I'm less sure about the implementation at platoon level.

Daemion

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #81 on: 11 September 2019, 15:09:42 »
I don't see how it would be any different.

Unless you want to apply some sort of recovery modifier for extra boyz.  It could be as easy as marking every seven guys and putting a + number below them for recovery only. 22-28 = +3, 15-21 = +2, 8-14 = +1, and no modifier for a single squad left.



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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Re: Infantry Weapon Overhaul for Total Warfare
« Reply #82 on: 19 October 2019, 21:15:08 »
Right, so I've been able to do a test run with the equipment in person.  Not a whole lot of time, so we basically just tested the infantry weapon overhaul part (with Jumpers, Foot and Motorized infantry).

The new infantry system was well liked!  They did like how the primary weapons had their own differences and quirks, and the secondary weapons really helped make different infantry platoons distinct.  The guy running the Jump Infantry was a bit disappointed he couldn't jump with impunity while firing his super-bulky secondaries but I think he understood why not.

We didn't have enough time to get anything conclusive on the weapon balance, but the system itself is looking pretty solid!