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Author Topic: Safe superjump?  (Read 5240 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #120 on: 14 September 2019, 18:19:47 »
The only canon number I've seen specified was 1 gigawatt hour.
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Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #121 on: 14 September 2019, 20:45:30 »
The only canon number I've seen specified was 1 gigawatt hour.

We know the distance to the jump point, we know the energy output from the sun at that distance and we know the area of the jumpsail and how long it takes to charge the core.

However, even if we accepted that bump to 1 GWh...and why not? FASAFiziks...we are talking about using a couple of more generators to charge the core, which will still likely be cheaper and more compact than the sail, or keeping one generator and just letting it run for longer.

1GWh over a 168 hour week is just about a 6MW engine....or two 3MW generators. Spending 150 Tons on two diesel generators and ten tons of fuel to replace a 500 Ton sail sounds like a neat investment.

Granted, its a fictional universe but even then, it doesn't truly work.

If you to keep a degree of realism...yes, I know - the "R" word...then additional concepts must be added or expanded upon.

Hence the head canon above.

Cores can't be charged quicker because heat spikes damage them.
The generators that can provide enough power to spark a jump are so heavy and large they halve the range
Ships require one week between jumps because thats how long it takes "shimmer heat" to discharge...shimmer heat being a quick n easy term for the "static charge" a ship gains after a jump.

And in this headcanon, these effects do real damage which is why ship captains try to avoid them

But as I said, some of this is simple extrapolation of the existing info. But some of the rest are new concepts. I think. I don't recall them cropping up anywhere else

But...getting back to the original topic.

Could this be used to explain a superjump.

Kinda...in this system, the LF battery would be used to feed power into the KF field to prevent it twisting. What you'd be doing would either be

1...pumping power into the field to stabilise it and prevent it twisting and tearing the ship apart
2...using the system to generate a second KF field overlaid upon the first, reinforcing it, maybe adding a concept of drag or mass.
3...using the system to generate  a second KF field, but instead of creating an overlay, you'd be creating an inverse field that mirrors the original, shoring it up and countering the twist effect by applying the reverse twist and thus stabilising the field.

Option 1 would be the Manassass.
Either option 2 or 3 could explain the WoB drive.

Of course, the Holy Grail here would be to get two fields generated at the same time so that any imperfections due to the time delay between initiations would be minimised. Options 2 and 3 would both be equivalent to operating two cores in close proximity to each other, possibly explaining the damage the drives suffer.

One could also posit a feedback loop which destroys the core.

Within the canon BTU, however, a safe superjump may not be advisable. It may be possible but it would also disrupt the story. Constraints are a necessary part of storytelling and world creating and game balance and any different transit technology would need its own set of pros and cons.

The existing universe would accept a safe superjump system...IF it were properly balanced in some way. The WoB version destroyed the drive....which is too strong a drawback, though it does work well to keep the standard drive as king.

A working superjump system would need some strong drawbacks...probably not automatic destruction of the core, but something.
« Last Edit: 14 September 2019, 21:05:34 by Talen5000 »
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #122 on: 14 September 2019, 20:54:07 »
I'm not, strictly speaking, disagreeing with any of your assessments, just pointing out what the only actual hard number on power requirements given (back in 1986 and probably long forgotten by the writers) was.
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Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #123 on: 14 September 2019, 21:17:29 »
I'm not, strictly speaking, disagreeing with any of your assessments, just pointing out what the only actual hard number on power requirements given (back in 1986 and probably long forgotten by the writers) was.

Yeah...and I'm not really dismissing it. We could argue that it is due to quantum fluctuations in the core, or that it is an old figure referring to older, less efficient core systems.

My point is that it doesn't matter...the amount of energy output by a sun is great but finite and at a jump point,  the amount of power that can be generated, even over a week, is limited.

Limited to the point that sails don't make economic sense. You shouldn't even need generators....a trickle charge from the fusion plant should charge the core nicely, and give you a nice fixed recharge time independent of star type.

None of that matters though because FASA wanted BattleRiders and they wanted sails.

And there is nothing wrong with that....except in reality, it doesn't work. It doesn't even really work using BTU rules.

Hence, the quip that it is a paradox we need to accept.

Unless or until CGL publish or expand the canon to provide alternate explanations. I've tried to do that here, to show it is possible (unless I overlooked something)....but I think the important thing here is that this IS a paradox we can accept.  It is not weird enough or poor enough to break the fourth wall or shatter the suspension of disbelief. The basic rules of jump travel are fairly consistent.


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The fusion plant was capable of generating approximately 1,000,000 kilowatt hours(a megawatt hour) of energy, sufficient for one jump. It also imposed a mass constraint that seriously restricted the range of jump to 16 to 18 light years jump- and-return for a medium-size vessel. Finally, the time required to recharge the drive core was prohibitive(three to four weeks or more)

P150, MW2 and it refers specifically to the TAS Pathfinder.

Later cores are arguably more efficient and so would require just 130MWh.

We can probably ignore the comment that seems to equate a GWh to a single Megawatt hour. They likely meant Gigawatt
« Last Edit: 14 September 2019, 21:27:30 by Talen5000 »
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #124 on: 14 September 2019, 23:23:49 »
Which still means 150MWh are used to jump.

However, the supposition that the sail simply tops up tbe charge is destroyed by the simple fact a JumpShip cannot jump without charging.
cannot jump without a sufficient charge, yes

your departure & emergence signatures deposit significant energy into EM, gravity & neutrino & particle emissions IIRC

you have to replenish that energy to get back up over the bar required for HS transit

But where does canon say that the KF-drive emerges from HS completely 100% empty ?


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The mass of a Volgas Jumpsail is 420 Tons, assuming that is all sail and includes none of the mass for the rest of the sail system. Its diameter is 1270m, and its area is approximately 1.3 million square meters, less space for the cut out, estimated at a generous 200m diameter, for a total estimated area of 1.27 million square meters.

That suggests approximately 331g per metre squared.

That does not imply a thick material, but I suppose it could be foamed.
The rugged sails under consideration for Project Breakthrough Starshot, which would have to be able to withstand and reflect enormous laser focused power densities, mass around 1000 tons per 100km x 100km = 10,000 km2, at approximately 1 micron thick IIRC

That's a density of 1e3 x 1e3 x 1e3 / (1e4 * 1e3 * 1e3) = 0.1g / m2

So "Jump Shields" are several thousand times more rugged still


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But I am aware of nothing in the canon which suggests a Jump sail is thick and sturdy. Quite the opposite...the sails are fragile and thin.
whenever they appear on an AT2 map, yes

not designed to deflect GR rounds

but very hardy vs. starlight, stellar wind & flares & storms etc.


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There isn't...I thought with Cray involved, he might have had the same ideas I did but I'd assume any 76Se would either be scavenged during maintenance or occurs at such a low level that its presence doesn't significantly affect field creation during the drives working life. An accumulation of 76Se could pose a minor, albeit growing risk, to the use of old cores but given the half life of 76Ge, probably wouldn't ever be anything more than a trace. That's not to say it couldn't cause issues, especially if a structurally pure core is needed for a jump, one where any contaminant can be problematic, but at that scale, scavenging would likely be unwarranted, with the core simply ground down for recycling and the parts purified
sounds like excellent material for scenario background and/or the fiction

Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #125 on: 15 September 2019, 05:48:17 »
you have to replenish that energy to get back up over the bar required for HS transit

But where does canon say that the KF-drive emerges from HS completely 100% empty ?

None of which, even were it true, makes any difference. You still need to generate that 130MWh of energy somehow.


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The rugged sails under consideration for Project Breakthrough Starshot, which would have to be able to withstand and reflect enormous laser focused power densities, mass around 1000 tons per 100km x 100km = 10,000 km2, at approximately 1 micron thick IIRC

Project Breakthrough Starshot is a proposed project to launch a fleet of nanocraft each weighing a few grams. The sails of these craft will ne measured in metres...not km.


Meanwhile, BT jumpsails are described as sub-mm thick, as "foil", with a risk of tearing when deployed or retracted. This goes all the way back to the early days of BT with the use of sail rigger robots, or the use of ship rotation to help control deployment.

The most recent descriptions would probably be SO. I don't know where the concept that they are rugged came from.
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #126 on: 15 September 2019, 08:22:17 »
Project Breakthrough Starshot is a proposed project to launch a fleet of nanocraft each weighing a few grams. The sails of these craft will ne measured in metres...not km.

Meanwhile, BT jumpsails are described as sub-mm thick, as "foil", with a risk of tearing when deployed or retracted. This goes all the way back to the early days of BT with the use of sail rigger robots, or the use of ship rotation to help control deployment.

The most recent descriptions would probably be SO. I don't know where the concept that they are rugged came from.
oops, true, hard to understand futurist Isaac Arthur in the background on 2x playback speed  :D

RL sails are 5-6g / m2 implying they are about 2 microns thick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail#Sail_parameters

That translates to... 5-6 tons / km2

BTU Volgas jump sail is 331 tons / km2 about 60x more rugged

About 120 microns = 5 layers of heavy duty aluminum foil

Please just take a step back and think about this -- solar light sails are light & thin so as to be pushed away from the Sun, whereas BTU jump sails sag down towards stars... er go thick & heavy & rugged

maybe how they've survived for all these centuries  :)

offer that jump "sails" are really more of a "jump shield" protecting JS from violent stellar weather patterns  ???





PS: as imaged above, canon rules "push" the proximity points of low-mass M-class Red Dwarves "out" farther away from said stars than you'd expect.  That's reflected in longer recharge times for such stars.  One plausible justification in support of canon on this is that Red Dwarves are known to be flare stars, having frequent severe stellar flares, mass ejections, storms, etc

Think that's because the entire bulk of M-class stars are convective, meaning convection cells extend from the fusing core all the way to the surface, carrying material straight from the central fusion furnace all the way to the surface... where it blasts outward ferociously

Plausibly unsafe to drop down deeper into the gravity wells of such unpredictable host stars... such that the minimum safe distance limit is increased over the trend of better behaved, higher massed stars

just a quick thought in support of canon science

DS&JS II could include rules for (say) "deep charging" closer to M-class stars, at the risk of daily saving throws vs. stellar ejections aimed at the JS... and which would each have some chance of damaging the "jump shield / sail" and/or JS itself ???

Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #127 on: 15 September 2019, 08:55:10 »
"Flamm's paraboloid" quantifies the curvature, imputed into the "fabric" of space-time, by stars.  It defines the "hyper-spatial elevation" of the "fabric" of space-time, as a function of distance from stars -- the fully general relativistic version of the classical "gravity well".

The paraboloids from two neighboring stars have to merge & mesh together at their mutual L1 point (gravitational pulls towards both stars cancel out), which is on average about 2 light-years from stars (4 lyr between stars on average), so knowing the star's mass and that distance, you can estimate a ballpark figure for the difference in "hyper-elevation" between the surface of the star and that L1 point in interstellar space between:



Generally, the "hyper-depths" of the gravity wells imputed into the "fabric" of space-time are around 10-30 M km for M/K/G/F class stars (respectively).  Similarly, the "hyper-elevation change" from star surface to standard Jump Point / Proximity Point is around 10-100 K km = 0.01-0.1 M km for the JP / PP of M/K/G/F class stars at 1-10AU (respectively)

just in support of canon rules, trying to help visualize the "fabric" of space-time "stage" on which all of the BTU events occur, obviously the usual space-time "mesh" images (like the one above) exaggerate the "vertical" contrast by a factor of a thousand to a million (!) (actual million to one grade is like one basketball hoop across the continental US)

PS: same calculation for Milky Way & Andromeda galaxies gives a "hyper-elevation change" of ~700 lyr from one galaxy to the halfway point in betwen

Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #128 on: 15 September 2019, 09:03:33 »
One more thing for backstory support of canon rules, the fact that the central cutout of jump-sails is not enormous plausibly implies that station keeping drive exhaust is "charge neutralized" before being ejected from the thrusters

otherwise, wouldn't the freshly fused He ions rapidly disperse and fan out over most of the inner surface of the jump sail ?

the fact that the exhaust plume remains collimated over reasonably long distances may imply the jet is charge neutral  ???

Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #129 on: 15 September 2019, 10:29:15 »
Please just take a step back and think about this -- solar light sails are light & thin so as to be pushed away from the Sun, whereas BTU jump sails sag down towards stars... er go thick & heavy & rugged

They "sag down" because they aren't intended to move the craft, and are pulled down by the suns gravity, exacerbated by tbe station keeping thrust of the jumpsuit.

The lore also describes them as foil thin and easily torn.

As for the Volga...the mass of the Jump Sail is 420 Tons. That would, I presume, include the mass of the entire sail assembly and not just the Jump Sail. Even if we say that this represents the entire mass for the sail, that doesn't alter the canon that the sails are foil thin and easily damaged.

It just means the sail is heavier, and designed for collecting power rather than movement

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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #130 on: 15 September 2019, 11:03:19 »
They "sag down" because they aren't intended to move the craft, and are pulled down by the suns gravity, exacerbated by tbe station keeping thrust of the jumpsuit.

The lore also describes them as foil thin and easily torn.

As for the Volga...the mass of the Jump Sail is 420 Tons. That would, I presume, include the mass of the entire sail assembly and not just the Jump Sail. Even if we say that this represents the entire mass for the sail, that doesn't alter the canon that the sails are foil thin and easily damaged.

It just means the sail is heavier, and designed for collecting power rather than movement
Yes, they have the area mass density (kg / m2) of 5 layers of heavy duty aluminum foil, foil is the most appropriate stock "off the shelf" comparison to make

Physically, they have to be heavy & dense in order to not be blown outwards by radiation pressure & stellar wind "ram pressure"

If they were as light as a solar sail (5-6 tons / km2) or the "starwisp" mesh design (0.1 tons / km2) they would be blown outwards like a parachute deployment and billow up above the JS.  Takes 333 tons / km2 to droop down starwards into radiation & stellar winds

The Sun has persistent "coronal holes" over the poles, with open magnetic field lines extending out to infinity, along which the solar wind is especially fast (~800 km/s), twice as fast as from the equator:



Clearly, at solar maximums, "streamers" can jet out from the sun at high (even polar) latitudes... straight towards jump proximity points

Plausibly, space weather is important for BTU space travel  ???  Having a "jump shield" between you and the star your charging over might well be mandatory  :o




Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #131 on: 15 September 2019, 12:10:38 »
Physically, they have to be heavy & dense in order to not be blown outwards by radiation pressure & stellar wind "ram pressure"

The jumpsuit would be accelerating in the opposite direction. It is gravity that is pulling them down, solar wind not being strong enough.
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Plausibly, space weather is important for BTU space travel  ???  Having a "jump shield" between you and the star your charging over might well be mandatory  :o

If it were, such shields would be necessary WarShips, for DropShips, for ASFs and wouldn't have a hole cut into them.

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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #132 on: 15 September 2019, 20:10:03 »
The jumpsuit would be accelerating in the opposite direction. It is gravity that is pulling them down, solar wind not being strong enough.
If it were, such shields would be necessary WarShips, for DropShips, for ASFs and wouldn't have a hole cut into them.
true

Both radiation pressure and gravity decrease with the square of the distance from the star, so the ratio is constant

For the sun, the threshold is:

L/4pi c GM = 0.7 g/m2 = 0.7 ton / km2

IDK why Wikipedia has solar sail almost 10x denser ???

Anyway you interpretation is plausible,  :omean "jump sail assembly".  However, the mass of support structures probably scales with the sail mass.  Masts and hoists wouldn't be overbuilt, massing 419t for a 1t sail, yes?

So, order of magnitude,

you're saying that the sail isn't 100% of the listen mass
I'm suggesting it is more than 1%
That gives us 10% ballpark, say 10-50%

If we agreed that the actual sail was only a third of the total listed mass 33%

That would be 140t total, 100t per square km

16x thicker than the 2 micron thick Wikipedia sails, about 33 microns thick, a third thicker than heavy duty aluminum foil at 25 microns

So you are canon are correct, it's comparable to aluminum foil
I'm not wrong, it is extra heavy duty aluminum foil

Enough to shield the jump ship from space weather to which it is perpetually exposed  :o

Unlike DS and ASF which receive regular repairs

So still offer that the canon implies that the sail doubles as an extra heavy duty shield against stellar storms, winds, flares etc

Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #133 on: 15 September 2019, 21:14:13 »
So still offer that the canon implies that the sail doubles as an extra heavy duty shield against stellar storms, winds, flares etc

Leaving aside that stuff like stellar storms don't exist and that space craft need to be radiation shielded anyway, with or without a "shield", the sail has s great big hole in it right in line between the ship and the star....there is no protection. More, a WarShip maneuvering to orbit would have its nose generally pointed towards the star, have no protection and still be in just as much need...none.

A deployed sail would do nothing to protect a Jumpship from "space weather" nor is there any indication it is needed or designed for that role. It is too thin and too uni directional to protect from micro meteorites. It is debilitatibg during actual combat.

The only reason the sail seems to exist is the only obe given in canon...to charge the core in a manner that suited JWs vision of the game.
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #134 on: 16 September 2019, 01:15:26 »
Leaving aside that stuff like stellar storms don't exist and that space craft need to be radiation shielded anyway, with or without a "shield", the sail has s great big hole in it right in line between the ship and the star....there is no protection. More, a WarShip maneuvering to orbit would have its nose generally pointed towards the star, have no protection and still be in just as much need...none.

A deployed sail would do nothing to protect a Jumpship from "space weather" nor is there any indication it is needed or designed for that role. It is too thin and too uni directional to protect from micro meteorites. It is debilitatibg during actual combat.

The only reason the sail seems to exist is the only obe given in canon...to charge the core in a manner that suited JWs vision of the game.
The central cut out is hardly bigger than the thruster nozzle?

Which you could use to "fight fire with fire" and blast exhaust into severe coronal mass ejections?

Moreover the thruster nozzle can handle your fusion exhaust, hotter than the cores of most stars, much less cool outer layers (photosphere) discharged into stellar winds over the poles

Hundreds of millions to billions of degrees versus one million or so

Your thruster nozzle already is armored versus stellar weather patterns

Moreover still, the sail is so thick it could be a lamellar of multiple purposed layers? Lower outer dark photo absorbent collector layer over say a capacitive layer that could be charged to millions of volts to electro statically repel wind ions, over a conductive layer which could generate high currents for magnetic shielding

Obviously speculation but in support of canon, which is justifiable

Just view the pictures, canon clearly positions the sail between the dangerous star and precious JS... Doesn't that immediately suggest if not outright imply a shielding function?  Where such protection would be plausibly required?

Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #135 on: 16 September 2019, 05:23:17 »
The central cut out is hardly bigger than the thruster nozzle?
Quote

It can be bigger  and some sails aren't circular.
The point is the pathway for any "stellar storm" has a clear passage right into the ship. The sail also only acts from one orientation so a maneuvering ship...fighter...DropShip included...has no protection at all.



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Your thruster nozzle already is armored versus stellar weather patterns

Lets say that is true....you've just said a sail isn't needed for a shield. Because the engine is "armoured" against it.







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Just view the pictures, canon clearly positions the sail between the dangerous star and precious JS... Doesn't that immediately suggest if not outright imply a shielding function?  Where such protection would be plausibly required?

No...it doesn't. It implies a sail used for anything other than a shield because most pictures also show the cutout.

The sail is nothing but a charging device.


And the simplest fix for the power charging issues would be to simply increase its size. A sail with the original (canonical) 50km diameter would generate about 1500 times as much power...about 200 GWh...at which point onboard diesel generators wouldn't be that desirable.

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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #136 on: 16 September 2019, 08:02:47 »
Lets say that is true....you've just said a sail isn't needed for a shield. Because the engine is "armoured" against it.



No...it doesn't. It implies a sail used for anything other than a shield because most pictures also show the cutout.

The sail is nothing but a charging device.


And the simplest fix for the power charging issues would be to simply increase its size. A sail with the original (canonical) 50km diameter would generate about 1500 times as much power...about 200 GWh...at which point onboard diesel generators wouldn't be that desirable.
again DS and ASF don't live in deep space round the clock far from repair facilities

And they would be protected by the JS when berthed

The sail deflects all but a narrow stream of wind plasma from scouring all sides and surfaces

Shape of sail doesn't matter the hole is always small and round unless canon explicitly says otherwise somewhere I'm not aware of

Which wouldn't make sense if it's just a solar panel anyway why lose the real estate?

50km sounds cool but would drop the density from 100s of tons per square km... To only 100s of kg...

That is right around the threshold between heavier than reflective to more reflective than massive

Ie such sails would billow away from stars like a parachute deploying

So evidently canon was revised to make the sails thick and dense so as to hang down below the ship in a shield reminiscent way

Don't know why the writers would re revise their decisions but it's their call, solar observatory satellites have sun shields and JS spend centuries of operational life in fast polar stellar winds and weather patterns...

Makes sense to me I always wondered what kept JS safe from storms

Multipurpose with redundancy on a minimal mass budget seems plausible, but if you insist BT can't be physically plausible i guess it won't be

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #137 on: 16 September 2019, 10:24:09 »
I always wondered what kept JS safe from storms

Armor. It's a known fact that spacecraft armor has nearly magical properties when it comes to stopping radiation.
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Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #138 on: 16 September 2019, 14:45:24 »
again DS and ASF don't live in deep space round the clock far from repair facilities

Neither do JumpShips. Those Olympus class recharge stations have docking berths precisely for maintenance

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The sail deflects all but a narrow stream of wind plasma from scouring all sides and surfaces

Said narrow stream, if it exists, being aimed directly at the ship itself. And the sail doesn't "protect" the ship when it is in transit. Why is the nose unworthy of protection by the sail? And if not the nose, why not sides? And if not the sidse, why the sail to protect those side?

This supposition that the sail acts as a shield is without any foundation whatsoever. There is not even canon inferenece that this is the case and that Jumpships can move and point directly at the star, head directly into this solar wind that you are positing is so damaging, is a clear sign that your supposition is wrong. That the sail cannot perform the task you suggest because there is a great big hole cut out of it is also an indictaion that your premise here is wrong.

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Shape of sail doesn't matter the hole is always small and round unless canon explicitly says otherwise somewhere I'm not aware of

You are trying now to push the idea that the sail somehow protects the sides of the vessel....even though the shapes of some sails woudl leave those sides dangerously expose tot he forces you are trying to suggest occur. The hole has to be larger than the engine exhaust stream AND large enough to account for any maneuevering or thrust or dispersion that will occur.

But it wouldn't matter if it was tiny....it is still a breach in the sail that allows through the "stellar storm" it is supposed to protect against, and the necessary placement of said breach means said storm will be focussed directly on the jump ship. If you try and posiut that the engiens are shielded against the storm, great...but you also admit that the ship doesn't need a jump sail for shielding because the crafts inherent armour is already good enough to deal with a direct hit from this "stellar storm".


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Which wouldn't make sense if it's just a solar panel anyway why lose the real estate?

Because a 50km  - that probably would mass more than sugegsted in the books - would generate enough power over the course of a week to render portable diesel generators as ineffecient in comparsion. You'd be at the point of requiring a full size power station.

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Makes sense to me I always wondered what kept JS safe from storms

The magnetic field they generate that is designed to deflect charged particles, ions and even small micrometeorites.
Another reason a flimsy shield isn't needed.
Not to mention armour. And the outerskin of the JumpShip. It's probably safe to assume that the electronics are also hardened.

Not to mention that a jump point is quite some distance away from a star.

Look - it's an interesting theory, but there appears to be no rationale behind it, no canon inference, no reason for such a purpose to the sail. The sail coudl very well provide a shadow that might provide some "protection", but such protection is ultimately unneeded, unnecessary and plays absolutely no reol in the JumpSails design, placement or reason to exist.

As things stand, the JumpSail provides too little power for it to be "realistic" or desireable in the BT universe.
The solutions would appear to be to tweak existing KF phsyics to alter the bottleneck - in my headcanon, to emphasise the shimmer heat into something more dangerous so the ship has to hang around for a week anyway so it may as well double the jump range by switchinto the sail system anyway - or to address the issue by upping the power requirements to something truly massive and then simply scaling the JumpSail up as well, to something 10km across, or 25km or 50km or even 100km. The upside is that it keeps most things the same, the downside is that it alters the visuals to the point the JumpShip becoems near invisible if you use a JumpSail that is big enough to be viable.

Or probably a mix of both. The idea that the charge has a stronger impact on jumps than existing canon suggests, and can be dangerous, is an example of a cosntraint on technology and one that appears fairly reasonable and doens't necessarily preclude the idea of a more pwpoer battery charge being required, with a suitably increased sail radius.

But the idea that the sail does double duty as a shield? It is interesting, but it invites more questions than it answers, and creates further holes when answers to those are attempted. Ships that can withstand PPC fire are not going to be bothered by the solar wind.



« Last Edit: 16 September 2019, 14:58:27 by Talen5000 »
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #139 on: 16 September 2019, 20:10:24 »
Neither do JumpShips. Those Olympus class recharge stations have docking berths precisely for maintenance
and are rare? Stats are only for survivors of centuries

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Said narrow stream, if it exists, being aimed directly at the ship itself. And the sail doesn't "protect" the ship when it is in transit. Why is the nose unworthy of protection by the sail? And if not the nose, why not sides? And if not the sidse, why the sail to protect those side?
When the sail is furled to the masts, it forms a shield all the way around the stern far wider than the hull and most berthed DS, please view the artwork i shared

The folding ratio is approximately 10-100:1, sail folds from about 1000m across to more like 100m-300m

So 33 microns becomes 3-33mm

One gust of stellar wind wouldn't cripple a JS, but those things live out there, they're essentially mobile permanent space habitats, and they have to be prepared for coronal mass ejections which might only come up their way once a week or month... But thousands of times per century

And usually the DS are safely away or have stayed away

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This supposition that the sail acts as a shield is without any foundation whatsoever. There is not even canon inferenece that this is the case and that Jumpships can move and point directly at the star, head directly into this solar wind that you are positing is so damaging, is a clear sign that your supposition is wrong. That the sail cannot perform the task you suggest because there is a great big hole cut out of it is also an indictaion that your premise here is wrong.
the clear canon reference is visual, the sail is deployed like a wind break below the vessel

Think you're describing WS, when do JS drive towards stars? The issue is not initial maneuvering around the jump harbor for the first few minutes after arrival, but protection from prolonged exposure especially to severe storms

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You are trying now to push the idea that the sail somehow protects the sides of the vessel....even though the shapes of some sails woudl leave those sides dangerously expose tot he forces you are trying to suggest occur. The hole has to be larger than the engine exhaust stream AND large enough to account for any maneuvering or thrust or dispersion that will occur.
the most canon DS&JS artwork is consistent

If the exhaust is electrically neutralized by ejecting electrons with ions, dispersion could be minimized

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But it wouldn't matter if it was tiny....it is still a breach in the sail that allows through the "stellar storm" it is supposed to protect against, and the necessary placement of said breach means said storm will be focussed directly on the jump ship. If you try and posiut that the engiens are shielded against the storm, great...but you also admit that the ship doesn't need a jump sail for shielding because the crafts inherent armour is already good enough to deal with a direct hit from this "stellar storm".
any wind plasma which did make it through would head up the tail pipe, and the thruster nozzle can handle temperatures up to a thousand times higher


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Because a 50km  - that probably would mass more than sugegsted in the books - would generate enough power over the course of a week to render portable diesel generators as ineffecient in comparsion. You'd be at the point of requiring a full size power station.
first you don't actually mean a hydrocarbon combustion process, yes? Nobody has or will ever put sooty oxygen breathing engines on spacecraft?

The question is why not always use the fusion drive? Why not just carry more hydrogen?

How thin could you make a sail? The only obvious limit is at least one or a few atoms thick, 1-2nm would be a thousand times thinner, only 3-6kg per square km, a 50km sail might mass a dozen tons

But it would be a sail blown about by the starlight and wind

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The magnetic field they generate that is designed to deflect charged particles, ions and even small micrometeorites.
From the hull?  Are you agreeing that the unfurled deployed sail a few km away generates its own field?

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Another reason a flimsy shield isn't needed.
Not to mention armour. And the outerskin of the JumpShip. It's probably safe to assume that the electronics are also hardened.
Stellar winds and storms are not naval PPCs

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Not to mention that a jump point is quite some distance away from a star.
For the same reason?

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Look - it's an interesting theory, but there appears to be no rationale behind it, no canon inference, no reason for such a purpose to the sail. The sail coudl very well provide a shadow that might provide some "protection", but such protection is ultimately unneeded, unnecessary and plays absolutely no reol in the JumpSails design, placement or reason to exist.
common sense impression of the canon artwork

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As things stand, the JumpSail provides too little power for it to be "realistic" or desireable in the BT universe.
I suggested also it was originally a backup which has been pressed into service for wont of Olympuses

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The solutions would appear to be to tweak existing KF phsyics to alter the bottleneck - in my headcanon, to emphasise the shimmer heat into something more dangerous so the ship has to hang around for a week anyway so it may as well double the jump range by switchinto the sail system anyway - or to address the issue by upping the power requirements to something truly massive and then simply scaling the JumpSail up as well, to something 10km across, or 25km or 50km or even 100km. The upside is that it keeps most things the same, the downside is that it alters the visuals to the point the JumpShip becoems near invisible if you use a JumpSail that is big enough to be viable.

Or probably a mix of both. The idea that the charge has a stronger impact on jumps than existing canon suggests, and can be dangerous, is an example of a cosntraint on technology and one that appears fairly reasonable and doens't necessarily preclude the idea of a more pwpoer battery charge being required, with a suitably increased sail radius.

But the idea that the sail does double duty as a shield? It is interesting, but it invites more questions than it answers, and creates further holes when answers to those are attempted. Ships that can withstand PPC fire are not going to be bothered by the solar wind.
stellar winds aren't that strong but effects gradually accumulate.?

Daryk

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #140 on: 16 September 2019, 20:14:21 »
*snip*
When the sail is furled to the masts, it forms a shield all the way around the stern far wider than the hull and most berthed DS, please view the artwork i shared
*snip*
For your head canon, sure.  For mine, sails stow in spools with axes parallel to the jump core.  It's the most efficient use of space.

Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #141 on: 16 September 2019, 20:39:22 »
and are rare? Stats are only for survivors of centuries

Do you really think JumpShips don't get maintained? Olympus class statiosn are simply the sites mentioned.

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When the sail is furled to the masts

Masts?


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it forms a shield all the way around the stern far wider than the hull and most berthed DS, please view the artwork i shared

Irrelevant. Show me the shield that protects a ship when it is driving into the sun. Show me how the ships deals with that great huge hole cut into it. Tell me why the armour and hardening we know JumpShips have aren't sufficient. Point me out even one sentence that even implies that this shield idea might be true.

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One gust of stellar wind wouldn't cripple a JS, but those things live out there, they're essentially mobile permanent space habitats, and they have to be prepared for coronal mass ejections which might only come up their way once a week or month... But thousands of times per century

The JumpShips are at the jump point. you are talking about a discharge that is about 100 times weaker than that hitting  Earth hitting an armoured vessel that already uses a strong magnetic field defence to deflect charged particles and micrometeorites.

Why does it need a unidirection shield with a hole in it?

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Think you're describing WS, when do JS drive towards stars?

Whenever they want to. JumpShips manuever all the time. They only need to point their engines at the sun when they are charging the sail. But even discounting JumpShip maneuvering, WarShips use the same systems.

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The issue is not initial maneuvering around the jump harbor for the first few minutes after arrival, but protection from prolonged exposure especially to severe storms

Again - the ships are already armoured and protected. Why is this shield idea necessary?

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If the exhaust is electrically neutralized by ejecting electrons with ions, dispersion could be minimized

Which is a gamble and a risk that noone is going to take especially since it is not necessary that it be taken. And that is if the exhaust is electrically neutralised and again, no evidence. You are positing a solution to a problem which doesn't exist. Even IF stellar storms were the problem you suggest, the ship already has the defences necessary and these defences provide full coverage from all angles, and not just part of the rear view.

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any wind plasma which did make it through would head up the tail pipe, and the thruster nozzle can handle temperatures up to a thousand times higher

And ship armour is capable of handling PPC fire, meteor strikes, missiles and ballistic weapon impacts, all of which would hit with magnitudes more energy. And again, if any "wind plasma" did make it through, and headed up the tailpipe, why is the sail necessary?

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first you don't actually mean a hydrocarbon combustion process, yes? Nobody has or will ever put sooty oxygen breathing engines on spacecraft?

Considering that oxygen can be replenished easily by breaking down water, why not? But there are other types of generator available.

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But it would be a sail blown about by the starlight and wind

You mean, like the canon JumpSail?

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From the hull?  Are you agreeing that the unfurled deployed sail a few km away generates its own field?

No - part of a JumpShips defence system is that it is surrounded by a magnetic field which is used to deflect charged particles and micrometorites. The sail has nothing to do with it.

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Stellar winds and storms are not naval PPCs

No - they're far weaker. Far, far, far weaker.

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common sense impression of the canon artwork

Artwork which depicts a solar sail in use for charging. You are trying to extrapolate that it has an additional function - that of protecting the rear...and just the rear...of the vessel because for some reason, only the armour surrounding the engine is vulnerable to damage from charged particles.

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I suggested also it was originally a backup which has been pressed into service for wont of Olympuses

Sails predate the fall of the Star league by quite a bit.

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stellar winds aren't that strong but effects gradually accumulate.?

No. You are now positing an erosion effect and if the JumpShips had no armour, and the Jump Points were a lot closer to the stars and if the charged particles were actually grains of sand it might work. But if these issues or stellar storms were probelmatic, the ships would simply jump an AU or two further out.

The Sail as Shield idea doesn't work - there are already defences against charged particles, bu even if there weren't, the sail would be a poor defence. The cheap defence would be distance while the simple defence would be "lets weld a couple more plates of steel to the hull". It just doesn't work within the BTU
« Last Edit: 23 September 2019, 14:30:51 by Talen5000 »
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #142 on: 16 September 2019, 23:26:38 »
Do you really think JumpShips don't get maintained? Olympus class statiosn are simply the sites mentioned.

Irrelevant. Show me the shield that protects a ship when it is driving into the sun. Show me how the ships deals with that great huge hole cut into it. Tell me why the armour and hardening we know JumpShips have aren't sufficient. Point me out even one sentence that even implies that this shield idea might be true.

The JumpShips are at the jump point. you are talking about a discharge that is about 100 times weaker than that hitting  Earth hitting an armoured vessel that already uses a strong magnetic field defence to deflect charged particles and micrometeorites.

Why does it need a unidirection shield with a hole in it?

Whenever they want to. JumpShips manuever all the time. They only need to point their engines at the sun when they are charging the sail. But even discounting JumpShip maneuvering, WarShips use the same systems.

Again - the ships are already armoured and protected. Why is this shield idea necessary?

Which is a gamble and a risk that noone is going to take especially since it is not necessary that it be taken. And that is if the exhaust is electrically neutralised and again, no evidence. You are positing a solution to a problem which doesn't exist. Even IF stellar storms were the problem you suggest, the ship already has the defences necessary and these defences provide full coverage from all angles, and not just part of the rear view.

And ship armour is capable of handling PPC fire, meteor strikes, missiles and ballistic weapon impacts, all of which would hit with magnitudes more energy. And again, if any "wind plasma" did make it through, and headed up the tailpipe, why is the sail necessary?

Considering that oxygen can be replenished easily by breaking down water, why not? But there are other types of generator available.

You mean, like the canon JumpSail?

No - part of a JumpShips defence system is that it is surrounded by a magnetic field which is used to deflect charged particles and micrometorites. The sail has nothing to do with it.

No - they're far weaker. Far, far, far weaker.

Artwork which depicts a solar sail in use for charging. You are trying to extrapolate that it has an additional function - that of protecting the rear...and just the rear...of the vessel because for some reason, only the armour surrounding the engine is vulnerable to damage from charged particles.

Sails predate the fall of the Star league by quite a bit.

No. You are now positing an erosion effect and if the JumpShips had no armour, and the Jump Points were a lot closer to the stars and if the charged particles were actually grains of sand it might work. But if these issues or stellar storms were probelmatic, the ships would simply jump an AU or two further out.

The Sail as Shield idea doesn't work - there are already defences against charged particles, bu even if there weren't, the sail would be a poor defence. The cheap defence would be distance while the simple defence would be "lets weld a couple more plates of steel to the hull". It just doesn't work within the BTU
Olympus stations are rare

Mast seems like an appropriate name for the struts to which the sail is attached

A canon picture is worth a thousand canon words, the sail is deployed like a shield... Which would protect not only the JS but all docking operations at it

Why would JS ever nose dive stars??  Maybe they emerge from HS that way but would surely quickly right themselves

The thruster nozzle is surely the most radiation hardened structure not the least

The central cut out doesn't have to be huge

If hull armor really was stopping particle radiation then wouldn't it be taking ever if very gradually accumulating damage? What do KeV level ions and electrons do on impact?

If the ship deflector field stops them, some would be trapped in radiation belts around the hull which could affect docking ops

A large shield sail with narrow central opening could deflect all stellar weather systems safely around it, clearing out a safe haven for its DS space traffic

Again you could fire thrusters against severe blasts such that your exhaust would plow into the onrushing plasma cloud and disperse it around your craft before it even reached you

But of course this isn't carved in ferrocrete until it's printed which isn't up to me sounds like you're more of one of the writers than me anyway

Talen5000

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #143 on: 16 September 2019, 23:39:58 »
Olympus stations are rare

And not the only maintenance platform. Bringing some degree of realism here, what shipyards and stations provide is nothing more than a place to stand. An Olympus is an ideal place to perform maintenance, but it isn't the only one and a properly trainned crew wouldn't need it as all they'd be doing outside the ship would be a visual inspection for meteorite impacts.

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A canon picture is worth a thousand canon words, the sail is deployed like a shield... Which would protect not only the JS but all docking operations at it

Deployed like a shield does not mean it is a shield.

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Why would JS ever nose dive stars??

To get form one point of the system to another. Because some of them do use their transit drives to accelerate and create gravity.

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The thruster nozzle is surely the most radiation hardened structure not the least

And therefore in no need of shielding.

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The central cut out doesn't have to be huge

It's got to be large enough to accommodate the exhaust from engines that may be as wide as the ship, plus room for dispersion, plus a safety margin. and it isn't the smallest cutout you need to explain foir this concept...but the largest.

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If hull armor really was stopping particle radiation then wouldn't it be taking ever if very gradually accumulating damage? What do KeV level ions and electrons do on impact?

You have abandoned warships whose armour is till good after centuries so - no. And again...yet another indicator that the shield doesn't  exist. Abandoned ships are no worse the wear.

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If the ship deflector field stops them, some would be trapped in radiation belts around the hull which could affect docking ops

Not how things work.

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A large shield sail with narrow central opening could deflect all stellar weather systems safely around it, clearing out a safe haven for its DS space traffic

No. It couldn't.

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Again you could fire thrusters against severe blasts such that your exhaust would plow into the onrushing plasma cloud and disperse it around your craft before it even reached you

No - you can't.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2019, 14:31:30 by Talen5000 »
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #144 on: 16 September 2019, 23:40:39 »
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/nuclear-engineering/22-55j-principles-of-radiation-interactions-fall-2004/lecture-notes/alph_proto_of_let.pdf

Linear energy transfer of stellar wind protons of 1-10KeV would be far in excess of MeV protons, which are already 10 KeV per micrometer

So a 30+ micron sail would be adamantite vs stellar winds which would not penetrate even the first micron even without EM shielding

I guess you could say the same about hull armor but I don't think you want to let wind scour your vessel

Suggesting that the sail also incorporates EM field generation to deflect plasma all the way around the craft

Suspect it is possible plausible but I guess you guys make the call

Thunderbolt

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #145 on: 16 September 2019, 23:44:04 »
And not the only maintenance platform. Bringing some degree of realism here, what shipyards and stations provide is nothing more than a place to stand. An Olympus is an ideal place to perform maintenance, but it isn't the only one and a properly trainned crew wouldn't need it as all they'd be doing outside the ship would be a visual inspection for meteorite impacts.

Deployed like a shield does not mean it is a shield.

To get form one point of the system to another. Because some of them do use their transit drives to accelerate and create gravity.

And therefore in no need of shielding.

It's got to be large enough to accommodate the exhaust from engines that may be as wide as the ship, plus room for dispersion, plus a safety margin. and it isn't the smallest cutout you need to explain foir this concept...but the largest.

You have abandoned warships whose armour is till good after centuries so - no. And again...yet another indicator that the shield doesn't  exist. Abandoned ships are no worse the wear.

Not how things work.

No - you can't.
You're the expert?

Ever tried?  Simulated??  Share your results???

EVA crews would appreciate a plasma free safe haven for their maintenance...

Weirdo

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #146 on: 17 September 2019, 00:37:57 »
First off:
++mod notice++
You're both stepping back and calming down. Now. This isn't a request.

Secondly:
Why hasn't either of you made a post in Ask the Writers yet that contains a single sentence: "Are jump sails in any way meant to operate as stellar shielding?"? Seems like the easiest way to settle this.
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VhenRa

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #147 on: 02 October 2019, 13:37:50 »
An Energy Storage Battery is put on Space Stations and used to recharge a Jumpship or Warship the slow way.  It can charge faster if it is attached to the Jumpship Warship, but you still have to charge the KF core slowly with it, unless you are wanting to take risks with frying the core.  It does not affect the KF cost multiplier, and masses 100,000 tons, no matter the size core it is supposed to recharge.

It also generates a new charge for a jumpship every 100 hours, without any usage of fuel, without any sail...

Weirdo

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #148 on: 02 October 2019, 13:42:09 »
Source on that free power statement?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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Daryk

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Re: Safe superjump?
« Reply #149 on: 02 October 2019, 22:19:42 »
I'm pretty sure recharge stations have their own sails.  It's still "free" power, but a sail is involved.

 

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