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Author Topic: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?  (Read 4693 times)

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #30 on: 26 July 2019, 15:52:44 »
There's an ablative aspect to the Protomech resource debate. A Point of Protomechs can take down a Light Battlemech with each side taking roughly equal damage. But that damage killed the Battlemech, while 2 out of 5 Protos are still untouched an 1 has only armor damage. That means that the Point is still an operational force that can stay in the field and continue fighting in Trials. From the Clan point of view this might be seen as an advantage because you are spending resources to maintain a formation, rather than building an entirely new one. You would be sending in reinforcements to bring a unit back up to strength, rather than sending in an entirely new unit. (You're still replacing 5 points worth of strength, but its easier to handle when that's spread across several Stars.)

There's also the salvage aspect, were Protomechs don't have ammo explosions that destroy all equipment in a location. So it is very possible that Protomechs can be repaired primarily with salvage of downed Point mates, a big asset for a military that expects frequent but short term combat. Its much more effective to reclaim assets than it is to let them blow up when the ammo cooks off.
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Talen5000

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #31 on: 26 July 2019, 17:12:58 »
If you look at the source material, aero pilots are actually not that small.  They average 5'6" and 100 lbs. Also "laborer" is a very broad category, encompassing more than longshoremen. The weight is a function of diet and training regimen.  I've known female body builders who are 5'3" and 180 lbs.

That little tidbit kinda blows a hole in the idea that proto cockpits were too small for anyone but Pilots.  I'd wager than 70% of any Olympic women's gymnastic team would call a proto cockpit downright roomy.

Yeah...the info I have has them MUCH smaller. Childsize in some cases.

Where'd you get the 5'6" figure?
« Last Edit: 29 July 2019, 11:20:15 by Talen5000 »
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grimlock1

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #32 on: 29 July 2019, 10:38:20 »
Yeah...the info I have has them MUCH smaller. Childlike in fime cases.

Where'd you get the 5'6" figure?
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Talen5000

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #33 on: 29 July 2019, 12:42:38 »
Sarna.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trueborn

They cite Classic BattleTech RPG, p. 82

I see.

Unfortunately, that figure seems to be drastically at odds with existing physical descriptiosn stretching back to the time the Clans were introduced.
1.7m is NOT "short". Low side of average, but not short.

Other sources put the size of AeroSpace phenotype as much smaller....the MWGttC for example has them at about 1.4m..and harking back to the very topic, ProtoMechs rely on the small physical size to work, not to mention the suggestion that the Is train children to pilot Protos, or the way the WOB had to use multiple amputees to pilot captured units.

1.4m...4 foot and a bit...would sound about average and fit in with the existing canon much more than 1.7m

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grimlock1

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #34 on: 29 July 2019, 13:08:04 »
I see.

Unfortunately, that figure seems to be drastically at odds with existing physical descriptiosn stretching back to the time the Clans were introduced.
1.7m is NOT "short". Low side of average, but not short.

Other sources put the size of AeroSpace phenotype as much smaller....the MWGttC for example has them at about 1.4m..and harking back to the very topic, ProtoMechs rely on the small physical size to work, not to mention the suggestion that the Is train children to pilot Protos, or the way the WOB had to use multiple amputees to pilot captured units.

1.4m...4 foot and a bit...would sound about average and fit in with the existing canon much more than 1.7m

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Colt Ward

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #35 on: 29 July 2019, 13:19:39 »
Other sources put the size of AeroSpace phenotype as much smaller....the MWGttC for example has them at about 1.4m..and harking back to the very topic, ProtoMechs rely on the small physical size to work, not to mention the suggestion that the Is train children to pilot Protos, or the way the WOB had to use multiple amputees to pilot captured units.

Except they do not, going back to I think the earliest POV fiction for a Proto a mechwarrior (Caden) climbed in the 'cockpit' and closed it up to see what it felt like to the new warriors under his command- it was the Chrysoar I think, and it was in the Tears of Blood serial of 5 stories.
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Maelwys

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #36 on: 29 July 2019, 14:52:29 »
Eh, if I'm remembering right, the MW in question just climbed into the ProtoMech "cockpit" to see what it was like, he didn't pilot or anything.

Its one being able to squeeze yourself into a small space, its quite another to be able to squeeze yourself into a small space and be able to effectively use it.

Everything up until the Ultraheavy ProtoMech fluff has indicated that the smaller stature of the aerospace phenotype was needed to effectively utilize ProtoMechs (with some suggestions for using children in the IS, or the WoB IS ProtoMech Interface, which required the pilot to be a quadruple amputee).

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #37 on: 29 July 2019, 15:48:24 »
Its been quite a while since I read it, but I thought it was mostly closed up . . . he did not have EI so he could not actually pilot it.  But he fit in the 'cockpit' and could have sealed it.  Now with that said, he was not described as a large mechwarrior either IIRC.
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grimlock1

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #38 on: 29 July 2019, 16:14:48 »
Eh, if I'm remembering right, the MW in question just climbed into the ProtoMech "cockpit" to see what it was like, he didn't pilot or anything.

Its one being able to squeeze yourself into a small space, its quite another to be able to squeeze yourself into a small space and be able to effectively use it.

Everything up until the Ultraheavy ProtoMech fluff has indicated that the smaller stature of the aerospace phenotype was needed to effectively utilize ProtoMechs (with some suggestions for using children in the IS, or the WoB IS ProtoMech Interface, which required the pilot to be a quadruple amputee).
For the WoB system, could the pilot have removable limbs?  Simlar to how XCOM: EW's MEC troopers had a set of humanoid prosthetic limbs that would be removed before they were plugged into their MEC suits.
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Maelwys

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #39 on: 29 July 2019, 17:26:04 »
For the WoB system, could the pilot have removable limbs?  Simlar to how XCOM: EW's MEC troopers had a set of humanoid prosthetic limbs that would be removed before they were plugged into their MEC suits.

IO says "The WoB ProtoMech operators could only be MD who were also quadruple amputees, effectively reducing the pilot to an armless, legless torso and head that would be wired directly into the machine."

Under rules it states "The pilot may not possess any limbs, prosthetic or otherwise..."

Whether that counts as removable limbs is fine or not, is unclear (I'd think it'd work, but CGL has a habit of taking things in the most restrictive way for the WoB...)

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #40 on: 29 July 2019, 17:43:12 »
I would think such a drastic action would however court the stated problems of megalomania and withdraw since the Clans- not known to be touchy-feely- have as part of their Proto operations team-building, community, connectiveness for the point so they do not get lost in their machines.
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Talen5000

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #41 on: 29 July 2019, 18:06:38 »
Except they do not, going back to I think the earliest POV fiction for a Proto a mechwarrior (Caden) climbed in the 'cockpit' and closed it up to see what it felt like to the new warriors under his command- it was the Chrysoar I think, and it was in the Tears of Blood serial of 5 stories.

Yeah - mistakes get repeated and points liek this get overlooked becasue they aren't given any thought, or they are swept aside in favour of a good story. So now we have the AeroSpace pilots that are child size and we have the AeroSpace pilot thats are normal size.

Which descriptions fits canon best? AeroSpace pilot at 1m40? Or At 1m70?

They are SUPPOSED to be short. VERY short. With big heads and oversized eyes.

If your point is true, then it is a part of the story that should NEVER have been allowed because of everything it contradicts - regular sized folk simply cannot fit within a ProtoCockpit which is why it is restricted to the AeroSpace phenotype

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Colt Ward

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #42 on: 29 July 2019, 21:34:41 »
There is also a difference in the volume available to a Minotaur vs a Harpy.  Your complaining about it is kind of funny, b/c it was written not long after TRO3060- and was the first fiction where they were not unknown targets.
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dgorsman

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #43 on: 29 July 2019, 21:36:37 »
Ghost Bears use "regular" size people as pilots rather than the special phenotype, so both sizes could be true.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #44 on: 29 July 2019, 21:45:37 »
IO says "The WoB ProtoMech operators could only be MD who were also quadruple amputees, effectively reducing the pilot to an armless, legless torso and head that would be wired directly into the machine."

Under rules it states "The pilot may not possess any limbs, prosthetic or otherwise..."

Whether that counts as removable limbs is fine or not, is unclear (I'd think it'd work, but CGL has a habit of taking things in the most restrictive way for the WoB...)
one would presume that part of that requirement was due to the WOB proto project being experimental and working with capture proto's. had they been able to refine it some, or develop their own proto hardware, they probably could have worked up a way to allow the pilot to break connection, at which point removable prosthetics probably would be an option.

Ghost Bears use "regular" size people as pilots rather than the special phenotype, so both sizes could be true.
Ghost Bears also didn't go in for Protomechs, iirc.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #45 on: 29 July 2019, 22:21:55 »
Ghost Bears also didn't go in for Protomechs, iirc.

Nope, they never bothered with them.  They either go with BA or mechs, not protos.
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grimlock1

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #46 on: 30 July 2019, 11:00:50 »
one would presume that part of that requirement was due to the WOB proto project being experimental and working with capture proto's. had they been able to refine it some, or develop their own proto hardware, they probably could have worked up a way to allow the pilot to break connection, at which point removable prosthetics probably would be an option.
Ghost Bears also didn't go in for Protomechs, iirc.

The idea of MD being "hardwired" to their proto never occurred to me.  I just assumed the techs would strap an armless, legless, cranky, slightly insane zealot into the cockpit and plug in the VDNI port.

IO says "The WoB ProtoMech operators could only be MD who were also quadruple amputees, effectively reducing the pilot to an armless, legless torso and head that would be wired directly into the machine."

Under rules it states "The pilot may not possess any limbs, prosthetic or otherwise..."

Whether that counts as removable limbs is fine or not, is unclear (I'd think it'd work, but CGL has a habit of taking things in the most restrictive way for the WoB...)
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dgorsman

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #47 on: 30 July 2019, 11:44:19 »
You know... given a little more time and resources, I could see the NIU interface PAL being used for MD proto pilots.
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grimlock1

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #48 on: 30 July 2019, 12:30:06 »
You know... given a little more time and resources, I could see the NIU interface PAL being used for MD proto pilots.
Maybe for super heavies protos, otherwise it's just adding more bulk.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

beachhead1985

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #49 on: 13 August 2019, 23:44:39 »
Another thing to consider is economies of scale. Maybe the clans have that enough that as a product of their MIC Protomechs *are* cheaper?
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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #50 on: 14 August 2019, 04:17:54 »
I think that the protomech's biggest advantage over a mech might have been strategic - they could be in more than one place at a time, and still have more endurance than a Battle-armour's capacitor system.

Remember, the fluff has binaries holding down planets. If for the price of a mech you can hold down five locations rather than one, it's not a horrible deal.

And Roc are just rude to fight, especially in terrain.

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #51 on: 14 August 2019, 10:48:39 »
Yeah, for most the Clans that used them they filled the same niche as vehicles for the IS.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #52 on: 15 August 2019, 04:20:57 »
  Meh, I'd rather have aerospace pilots in fighters, even light fighters. I'll even take more Elementals, as their training rounds them out, over Protomechs. I understand they were a cheap stopgap measure to the lack of omnimechs, but can't replace omnis or Elementals.

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Re: Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?
« Reply #53 on: 15 August 2019, 10:32:18 »
  Meh, I'd rather have aerospace pilots in fighters, even light fighters. I'll even take more Elementals, as their training rounds them out, over Protomechs. I understand they were a cheap stopgap measure to the lack of omnimechs, but can't replace omnis or Elementals.

A point of Rocs is a better escort for a Dire Wolf than a point of Elementals.  They are better for scouting than Elementals- and also IMO better than most light mechs when you consider the spread for the Satyr's LAP.  Besides, its recycling total failure pilots (originally) not putting test downs that might be piloting Donars/VTOLs, SC or DS into a ASF cockpit . . . and if this is a use of different resources than OmniMechs, its a good chance (or at least logical) that its a use of different resources than ASF/OmniFighters.
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