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Author Topic: So the celestial series... how to and why?  (Read 7098 times)

Empyrus

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #60 on: 26 July 2019, 11:50:58 »
Are their chem weapons or artillery that are more mech scale?
Interstellar Operations has rules for chemical weapons. They tend to go heavily to "GM/player judgment" territory though, since delivery methods are up to players.
Like, players can rule that an Arrow IV (which can be carried by 'Mechs) has missiles with chemical warheads. Becomes very complex fast though.

IO includes other WMDs as well, with nuclear weapons having most complete rules.

In practice, those don't really work in normal games, being too complex and too powerful. If you want to spice your game with special weapons, normal artillery and air strikes are probably good bets. BattleMech Manual has "support powers" for simple artillery and air strikes (and countering those), and one could modify them a bit with rules from Tactical Operations for inferno warheads or the like. Fire is simpler, yet fits the Word of Blake doctrine well enough.

Some 'Mechs can carry Arrow IV artillery missiles, but i can't off hand name any the Word of Blake has except the very limited Catapult C3 which has only one ton of missiles (C5 is better but pretty much Capellan-exclusive, though the Word of Blake could always have stolen some, or bought few, whatever works on your table).
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #61 on: 26 July 2019, 11:59:40 »
Agreed.  Unfortunately many WMDs don't have BV costs associated with them, as they are meant to be a Game Master tool.  I looked forever to find the BV cost of a Davy-Crockett as I am using the WoB in a small campaign.  Needless to say I came up empty handed. 

If you are looking for artillery, the Marksman is a good option in my mind.  It is fairly inexpensive for BV, and was commonly used by the WoB, who stole a bunch from ComStar before getting a manufacturing plant to build their own (I believe the WoB captured a manufacturing plant to build Marksman).

In the end, I play the WoB that they can field just about anything the Inner Sphere has to offer and will use any tactics to win.  They were very hateful of the Clans so they would not inherently use Clan equipment, however.

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #62 on: 26 July 2019, 12:03:22 »
the mad cat and ryoken show up on their jihad list, but that's it. there is also a celestial config and a variant for each LAM (nine total) that is mixed tech.

so 99% anti-clan  ^-^

massey

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #63 on: 26 July 2019, 12:13:40 »

And if the guy that's moved close to you is in a duel of his own?  And that guy happens to be at short range of the guy you're duelling?

Then you get a one turn advantage when you can group fire but the Clans haven't yet?

If everybody is engaged in combat, then it doesn't really matter.  WoB can basically declare a Grand Melee if they want.  Firing (especially group firing) on somebody who is already engaged in a duel will do that.  I'm talking about a somewhat different scenario.  The way I read your idea is that there was an extra C3 mech who just decides to get as close as possible to a Clan target, counting on the Clanner not engaging yet.  And meanwhile he's feeding info to other mechs.  I don't think that's a safe assumption.  I think the Clan warrior might decide to just blast him anyway because he's not actively involved in a duel, and he's made himself an easy target.  Clan honor does allow one mech to engage multiple opponents as part of their duel.

I suppose you could get a situation where two Clan mechs are fighting two C3 mechs, where each is standing next to their buddy's target.  Like they're on opposite ends of the map, shooting at targets on the other side.  And as long as the duels stay honorable looking on the surface, the C3 mechs could be sharing data and nobody would ever know.  In that situation I guess the C3 mechs would have an advantage, but I don't think that layout would be very common.

Orin J.

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #64 on: 26 July 2019, 12:47:00 »
Flan. Even uncultured swine like Clan Warriors appreciate a good flan.
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Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #65 on: 26 July 2019, 13:41:08 »
Then you get a one turn advantage when you can group fire but the Clans haven't yet?

If everybody is engaged in combat, then it doesn't really matter.  WoB can basically declare a Grand Melee if they want.  Firing (especially group firing) on somebody who is already engaged in a duel will do that.  I'm talking about a somewhat different scenario.  The way I read your idea is that there was an extra C3 mech who just decides to get as close as possible to a Clan target, counting on the Clanner not engaging yet.  And meanwhile he's feeding info to other mechs.  I don't think that's a safe assumption.  I think the Clan warrior might decide to just blast him anyway because he's not actively involved in a duel, and he's made himself an easy target.  Clan honor does allow one mech to engage multiple opponents as part of their duel.

I suppose you could get a situation where two Clan mechs are fighting two C3 mechs, where each is standing next to their buddy's target.  Like they're on opposite ends of the map, shooting at targets on the other side.  And as long as the duels stay honorable looking on the surface, the C3 mechs could be sharing data and nobody would ever know.  In that situation I guess the C3 mechs would have an advantage, but I don't think that layout would be very common.

IMO what is described is more of the discussion Clan players have about ECM/ECCM in Trials involving duels . . . or even blocking movement, taking/destroying woods or buildings, and other 'incidental' benefits for the warrior on your side in their duel while you are engaged in your own duel.

For example . . .

One warrior on my side is piloting a Timber Wolf B against a Falcon Hellbringer Prime.  I am piloting a isorla Black Lanner Prime against a Cougar H, so keeping my distance to use ERLL & LRM10 is fighting smart . . . but I also do not 'need' the ECM in my fight against the Cougar, so its switched the ECCM mode.  I just happen to move to place the ECCM bubble to cancel out the ECM between the Hellbringer & Timber Wolf LOS so the Artemis IV on the TWolf's LRMs & SRMs get their benefit.

C3 & C3i, IMO, are in the same situation as described above . . . but you can add the RP element of 'how would the Clan warriors know'  . . . they are either going to assume the IS pilots are more elite than they expected (after getting hit a lot b/c its easier), or custom mechs with TCs, etc . . . WE know OOC that its C3i- though I would say the WoB player should/would not reveal it- but its not something a Clan warrior is going to know absolutely.
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Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #66 on: 26 July 2019, 14:47:06 »
I suspect c3 is detectible by sensors - not necessarily the specific data being shared, but that you can tell it’s active in the vicinity. If that is the case, the clans might have just started declaring shenanigans the second it popped up on their sensors. I feel this, or something similar, is the case because:

Quote from: tw pg 275
A Clan warrior’s response to an Inner Sphere unit declaring an attack using such a system against a Clan unit depends on the honor level in use. At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling, regardless of the type of weapon used. At Honor Level 2, the duel degenerates into a free-for-all, with the violators—the unit that fired the area- effect weapon, designated with TAG or used a C3 system— open to attack by any Clan unit. At Honor Level 3, the use of area-effect systems renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void.


Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #67 on: 26 July 2019, 15:15:42 »
C3 is sited b/c the Master acts like a TAG, and is reinforced with the previous & post mention of area-effect weapon.
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Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #68 on: 26 July 2019, 15:32:27 »
No I don’t think so

Previous paragraph

Quote
Area Affect Weapons (as well as any system that requires multiple units to operate, such as TAG, C3, semi-guided LRMs and so on) by their nature violate Zellbrigen.

C3 is listed discretely. If they meant c3 master tag they would have said that.

Using c3 in any form violates zell and whatever in-universe magic you want to use to explain it allows clanners to know it’s being used. Honor level 1 will ignore it and overcome. 2 and 3 will not

massey

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #69 on: 26 July 2019, 16:25:59 »
I think calling them "Honor level 1" and "Honor level 2" really just shows that they're gameplay rules.  I think the Clans themselves wouldn't use that terminology or follow those exact codes.  That's for us, the players, to use in games.

My guess is that they can figure out that mechs are using C3 equipment.  If nothing else, they should just know that those mechs normally carry it.  Theoretically they might not know if it's turned on, but I think any Inner Sphere pilot in a C3 machine who starts making really accurate shots would be suspected.  And if you're a Clanner who is looking for a reason to break the rules, that's all you need.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #70 on: 26 July 2019, 16:38:08 »
IMO what is described is more of the discussion Clan players have about ECM/ECCM in Trials involving duels . . . or even blocking movement, taking/destroying woods or buildings, and other 'incidental' benefits for the warrior on your side in their duel while you are engaged in your own duel.

For example . . .

One warrior on my side is piloting a Timber Wolf B against a Falcon Hellbringer Prime.  I am piloting a isorla Black Lanner Prime against a Cougar H, so keeping my distance to use ERLL & LRM10 is fighting smart . . . but I also do not 'need' the ECM in my fight against the Cougar, so its switched the ECCM mode.  I just happen to move to place the ECCM bubble to cancel out the ECM between the Hellbringer & Timber Wolf LOS so the Artemis IV on the TWolf's LRMs & SRMs get their benefit.

I think that a lot of Clan warriors would call shenanigans on that, too.

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Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #71 on: 26 July 2019, 16:43:01 »
I think calling them "Honor level 1" and "Honor level 2" really just shows that they're gameplay rules.  I think the Clans themselves wouldn't use that terminology or follow those exact codes.  That's for us, the players, to use in games.

My guess is that they can figure out that mechs are using C3 equipment.  If nothing else, they should just know that those mechs normally carry it.  Theoretically they might not know if it's turned on, but I think any Inner Sphere pilot in a C3 machine who starts making really accurate shots would be suspected.  And if you're a Clanner who is looking for a reason to break the rules, that's all you need.

The second observation is a good one. Eventually you’re going to know who’s got the master and to snuff it either by PPC fire or ecm ASAP

Honor levels are just a general characterization of attitude that gives you a gameplay guideline. The attitudes themselves in turn  are probably reflective of in universe codification, prescribed reactions ingrained by social norms. Every clanner is going to have their own foibles and peculiarities but largely fall into a few select groups. Virtually all of them are opportunists at some level and the whole system is a big facade, especially politically. I wouldn’t expect many clan vets past tukayyid to be anything but cagey about using traditional clan ROE against IS forces

A level 1 is an insufferable idealist who will die rather than win by breaking the code. Level 2 wants to fight by the ROE but won’t suffer fools that break the code. Level 3 is for opportunists just waiting for an excuse to go ham.  Level 4 is for dezgra like wobbies who don’t even deserve the chance.

idea weenie

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #72 on: 26 July 2019, 19:22:37 »
Chemical weapons tend to be outside the scope of your average tabletop game, and generally mechs and combat vehicles are sealed so the crews are safe.  There are rules for playing in hostile environments including radiation, biological and chemical weapons in Tactical Operations, and there are rules for deploying WMDs in Interstellar Operations.

Artillery is far more common, though with the exception of Arrow IV launchers it tends to be vehicle mounted as opposed to on mechs, rules are in Tactical Operations.

The closest you might get on the tactical scale is the enemy force is moving missile launching units (Arrow IV, Thunderbolt, or LRM) towards a certain location.  Your job is to immobilize or destroy those units so they cannot get in range of a nearby population center.  Think Objective Raid/Assassination mission, where you have to get to a location, or destroy certain enemy units.

Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #73 on: 26 July 2019, 21:49:49 »
Wars of reaving designated the zell levels 'strict zell', 'opportunistic zell' and something else I can't remember.

Really, the celestials are a boogeyman in chaos campaign, for when the GM rolls too many 6s in a row when determining the bad guys. Running into an elite level II with all the toys, when you were expecting a low-intensity recon scenario? Unfun.

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #74 on: 26 July 2019, 21:59:33 »
Quote from: tw pg 274
The table gives three different levels of interpretation. A strict interpretation means that the Clan’s warriors generally follow zellbrigen against almost all opponents (except
those considered extremely dishonorable, such as bandits and pirates, or against a long-hated enemy). An opportunistic interpretation means that the warriors follow zellbrigen unless mitigating circumstances dictate otherwise (they are outnumbered/outgunned, they think they can get away with it, and so on). Clans following a liberal interpretation use zellbrigen only against other Clans, and then only if they have the advantage.

dgorsman

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #75 on: 26 July 2019, 22:19:09 »
Alright. So outside of warships scale nuke/chem/bioweapons, What are the dirty and dishonorable equipment/weapons brought by WoB. This thread is kind of becoming a WoB strat guide in general to me.

We have:
Celestial designs
Damn near everything has C3i
Sticking Unstable and psychosis induced upgrades into your people


Are their chem weapons or artillery that are more mech scale?

A lot of the WoB dirty tricks won't work well in a pick up game.  They are more for role play and/or campaign systems where BV isn't so much a force build tool as a GM check to ensure things don't get too out of balance on the table.
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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #76 on: 27 July 2019, 02:34:51 »

I suppose you could get a situation where two Clan mechs are fighting two C3 mechs, where each is standing next to their buddy's target.  Like they're on opposite ends of the map, shooting at targets on the other side.  And as long as the duels stay honorable looking on the surface, the C3 mechs could be sharing data and nobody would ever know.  In that situation I guess the C3 mechs would have an advantage, but I don't think that layout would be very common.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, and well, its how I generally aim to use C3.  Maybe not opposite ends of the map, but the plan is more to manoeuvre linked units to give a mutual targeting advantage
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massey

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #77 on: 27 July 2019, 11:16:20 »
I don't see how that's really possible.  I mean, maybe in a vague general sense.  But your opponent is going to know you're using C3.  I suppose if he's just not very good you might be able to position yourself like that.  But he should realize what you're doing and move to counter.

Theoretically in a real battle, your enemy may not know that you've got this particular technology, but not in a game.

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #78 on: 27 July 2019, 11:22:00 »
Running into an elite level II with all the toys, when you were expecting a low-intensity recon scenario? Unfun.

one of my favorite mechanisms in a chaos campaign is to have a scenario option called Intel Blunder that has variable levels of a huge reward but the players know it's going to be horrible.

Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #79 on: 27 July 2019, 13:15:53 »
one of my favorite mechanisms in a chaos campaign is to have a scenario option called Intel Blunder that has variable levels of a huge reward but the players know it's going to be horrible.

Have sealed envelopes, have them pull one from the stack.

Nice idea.

grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #80 on: 29 July 2019, 10:05:48 »
That said, I also don't think the example given, of a Celestial pilot walking his machine up next to a duel between two other mechs, is a particularly good one.  I think the average hyper-cocky Clan warrior would simply say "Fine, I'll kill you both!" and unload on the guy dumb enough to make himself an easy target.  He's not going to interfere in somebody else's duel, but if an enemy mech is clearly not engaging the guy he's supposed to be fighting, and instead comes wandering over to you?  Fair game, man.

IIRC, So long as that Celestial that just walks up next to you during your duel with that Seraph has not been engaged by anyone else, Zell allows you to engage the second target, thus "inviting" it into your current duel, without declaring a Grand Melee.  If you shoot at a Wobbie who's already fighting your starmate, well, that's just not how we play cricket in the Kerensky Cluster.
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Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #81 on: 29 July 2019, 11:05:29 »
now that i thought about it, i'm of the mind that after about the first ten minutes of the jihad the clans weren't even giving wobbies the chance to break zell in the first place

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #82 on: 29 July 2019, 11:07:37 »
Pretty much.

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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #83 on: 07 August 2019, 09:52:59 »
Alright. So I have an okay idea of what to do with the Celestial series. bVDNI seems a must and worked out okay in the test match.

Now I am more focused on getting the vehicles, BA, and infantry right.

BA is the 6 demon series models and purifiers (adaptive and terra)?

Infantry appears to be Tau Zombies, Tau Wraiths, and just generally available IS infantry? Are there any other standout types to use here? I found RS3085u and am still going through what feels like a hundred-ish pages of infantry

Maelwys

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #84 on: 07 August 2019, 11:09:43 »
BA is the Demons, the Purifiers and they'll have access to the FWL's Achileus, Longinus and Phalanx. Also the Standard IS suits, and they also produce the Nighthawk and Tornado suits.

You can also make your own infantry, which would let you do things like build 36 man WoB infantry units using their armor kits and Mauser 1200s....

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #85 on: 07 August 2019, 11:14:00 »
CS/WoB infantry Level IIs are tricky because you, by the rules, have to split them into two 18 man platoons. notice on the MUL that conventional infantry are only listed by Level I.

now, if you want to just go ahead and make the super platoons, no one is calling the compliance police.

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #86 on: 07 August 2019, 12:39:36 »
CS/WoB infantry Level IIs are tricky because you, by the rules, have to split them into two 18 man platoons. notice on the MUL that conventional infantry are only listed by Level I.

now, if you want to just go ahead and make the super platoons, no one is calling the compliance police.

Or depending on what you want infantry for, you make 6 six-man squads . . . or it could be two six man squads as demi-squads.
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #87 on: 07 August 2019, 13:26:54 »
Hm. I thought CS/WoB Infantry came in 30 person units.

Either way, I’m most interested in this Tau Zombie. I just neeed to figure out how the armor divisor works and what the 1.75 Modiifer for MD means. They start at 93. Does 93 include all the MD stuff? Do I need to pay 163 for the whole unit?

I’m assuming I could take the 6 man squad, triple the BV, and bring it as an 18? Or is there a specific reason for them to only be 6 people

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #88 on: 07 August 2019, 13:36:47 »
They used to be standard but were changed to match their base six philosophy

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #89 on: 07 August 2019, 13:51:56 »
6 man squad is not a problem- other non-Clan factions have smaller & larger squads.  MH is 5 man squads, regular infantry for the Houses are 7 man squads, foot platoons have 4 squads and jump have 3 IIRC, and I am sure there are more set ups.  My preference for my combined arms merc unit is a 10 man squad, 4 squads to the platoon w/ a command section of 4, and base 4 up from there since infantry will be holding territory & garrisoning . . . base 4 is better for occupation, 3 is better for manuever (2 up & 1 back).
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