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Author Topic: So the celestial series... how to and why?  (Read 8761 times)

Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #180 on: 14 September 2019, 05:57:01 »
I’m curious about both I guess.

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #181 on: 14 September 2019, 11:04:35 »
ECM proliferation explodes in terms of number of designs after the mid 3050s and by the jihad it’s really easy to implement into your force.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #182 on: 14 September 2019, 11:15:31 »
Of course, the important thing to remember is that ECM only has a 6 hex radius, which means that in order to jam an MD Celestial, you've got to be right next to it.  And that's rarely a position conductive of living a long time.  And also, there are a lot of long range weapons with a 7 hex short range bracket.
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Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #183 on: 14 September 2019, 11:19:00 »
That’s a good point. C3i does a fair job of signal intercepting by routing around units positioned in between elements

truetanker

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #184 on: 14 September 2019, 14:01:06 »
This...

This has merit...

Surrounding a Celestrial with ECM destroys link.

If you overlap ECM coverage for that one turn it takes to down it of course, otherwise...

TT

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Weirdo

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #185 on: 14 September 2019, 14:18:28 »
Remember three things:

Even the Shadow Divisions were combined arms forces.

The Blakists developed and deployed their own LRM Carrier variant.

ARAD missiles are a thing.

I think we can safely assume they had a plan to defend their C3i nets.
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truetanker

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #186 on: 14 September 2019, 14:30:19 »
Well four things really...

Urbanmech Arrow launchers!

They were built by Orguss Industries of Marcus originally, which factory was supposed to have been destroyed. It became a Word of Blake Protectorate world in '77, prime for the Jihad.

So what stops them from rebuilding it from parts leftover?

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
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Wrangler

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #187 on: 14 September 2019, 15:02:31 »
Well four things really...

Urbanmech Arrow launchers!

They were built by Orguss Industries of Marcus originally, which factory was supposed to have been destroyed. It became a Word of Blake Protectorate world in '77, prime for the Jihad. So what stops them from rebuilding it from parts leftover?
TT
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Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #188 on: 14 September 2019, 15:42:13 »
If a WOB player isn't using a triple core processor, with the +2 to init that provides, they aren't playing right. While I'm not sure exactly what that does to your odds of winning the dice-off, I'm sure everyone here has had the experience of losing several turns in a row. Imagine that being normal.

It's expensive, but "There are some things BPV can't buy. For everything else, there's cheating like a WOBbie"

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #189 on: 14 September 2019, 15:49:43 »
Remember three things:

Even the Shadow Divisions were combined arms forces.

The Blakists developed and deployed their own LRM Carrier variant.

ARAD missiles are a thing.

I think we can safely assume they had a plan to defend their C3i nets.

"Nuh uh! ARAD is experimental. TW only!"
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Firesprocket

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #190 on: 14 September 2019, 22:57:58 »
"There are some things BPV can't buy. For everything else, there's cheating like a WOBbie"
It's only cheating if someone managed to get away to speak of it.

Sir Chaos

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #191 on: 15 September 2019, 10:32:29 »
It's only cheating if someone managed to get away to speak of it.

All´s fair in love, war and getting to the front of the buffet line.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #192 on: 15 September 2019, 10:42:45 »
If a WOB player isn't using a triple core processor, with the +2 to init that provides, they aren't playing right. While I'm not sure exactly what that does to your odds of winning the dice-off, I'm sure everyone here has had the experience of losing several turns in a row. Imagine that being normal.

It's expensive, but "There are some things BPV can't buy. For everything else, there's cheating like a WOBbie"
And then there was that time semi-guided LRMs were used at a canon event...

Wrangler

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #193 on: 16 September 2019, 08:32:34 »
In many ways, the WoB and the Celestial series OmniMechs pushed long experimental tech to Tournament legal status.  Which i like since some of it isn't as OP as people make them to be.

Anyways, i still believe the Celestials were used as part effect change things up, even with what appears to be questionable builds.  I do think in part, they also did that to make them not invincible.
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #194 on: 16 September 2019, 09:20:38 »
Well, WoB - celestials specifically - have an unbroken win streak locally. Part of that is me just having more experience. Part is because somehow some weird misfortune happens to those opposing WoB.

Last time it was a heavy PPC and a kick to the chest both hitting an old 3025 Marauder’s side torso and smoking the ammo when the mech was pristine starting the turn. Time before it was a Nova that couldn’t get an ATM shot to land even when it only needed 5s. I’m gonna “fluff” this stuff as WiB sabotage because that sounds reasonable.

Honestly, I wasn’t around for Celestials moving experimental tech to tourney legal or whatever they did. I just like playing the bad guys. In battletech that’s usually both sides but with WoB fights it is always WoB.

Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #195 on: 16 September 2019, 10:19:13 »
Honestly, I wasn’t around for Celestials moving experimental tech to tourney legal or whatever they did. I just like playing the bad guys. In battletech that’s usually both sides but with WoB fights it is always WoB.

Well . . . 'no man is the villain of his life story' . . . some were taken for a ride (Alice Phuong?), some believed the Blakists offered a better alternative than the old hatreds (Geoffrey Zucker), and some were true believer cultists (hello MD!).  What is funny is those who thought the Blakists were a better alternative than the traditional hatreds were in the same place the SLDF in exile was on Strana Mechty- so same problem formed the Clans, which they hated.

It comes down to the factions you represent when playing Blakists . . . but pretty soon the actions of the fanatics (Toyama/Sixth of June/Master's minions) got all the rest tarred with the same brush which forced those who did not believe in the same extremes to defend themselves- like Precentor Phuong on Luthien.
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #196 on: 16 September 2019, 10:36:15 »
I guess I always think of them as the bad guys because of the Jihad. Pre-jihad they were mostly just the zealous believers who made every conversation in the room awkward and not actually that openly evil.

Once you get to consistent use of bioweapons, chemical agents, nukes, etc. you are the bad guys.

Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #197 on: 16 September 2019, 11:44:12 »
Problem is its a matter of degrees . . . the Toyama/6th of June/Masters were not even the majority IIRC, but they had a goal and sought positions that aided that goal.  Phoung was trying to be a peacekeeper and sought to avoid the fighting . . . I want to say she was a True Believer . . . but had a someone from one of the fanatical sects who was there to kick off a fight.

But not everyone was involved in atrocities . . . but after a while, it did not matter if you were- if you were a Blakist it became a fight for survival . . . a while after that, you knew you were going to lose.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #198 on: 16 September 2019, 12:38:33 »
Early on, the WoB tried to portray themselves as being morally better than ComStar.  Few people outside the FWL bought it, so they began running a mixture of real and engineered support operations on planets around Terra to get them to sign up.
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Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #199 on: 16 September 2019, 13:08:13 »
Yeah, Frontlines- latest anthology release- had a great story called 'Son of Blake' by . . . I think Pardoe?  Does a really good job of getting into the recruitment of a refugee family to being Blakists.

But honestly you have to look at the way Word of Blake was formed . . . and of course the questionable decision to let a group that advocates assassination for those outside the group that opposes them have a seat at the table of power (or Circuit in this case).  The T6M cabal eliminated those who would oppose their pogrom- think of the Venus dome 'collapses' that got rid of the Shunners- and co-opted those who partially agreed like the True Believers.  A commander engaging of their own will is not any different than a commander who is placed in a position to defend themselves by fanatic in their ranks (Luthien).
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grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #200 on: 17 September 2019, 08:58:44 »
Idle thought...  Would the Celestials generate so much discussion if they were still the dedicated rides of the MD, but less... quirky?  They have a buzz about them for being durable because with the exception of the Archangel, they all use LFEs and they are all 94% of max armor or better.  So are a lot of other mechs in 3075.  Yeah, they all uses small cockpits, which makes them a good deal for MD pilots, but there are other mechs out there that do the same. Light mechs and artillery/fire support machines can make good use of that extra ton. Lights generally don't survive many turns of taking 20+ damage at a clip and I think +1 PSR in exchange for an extra bin of Arrow IV is a good trade.

As a whole, the Celestials are well armored, they don't suffer from side torso kills, and assuming a pilot with VDNI, they don't suffer for having a small cockpit.   On the other hand, they don't suffer too much in the way of pod space either.  The IS Omni population is fairly small but a couple spot checks comparing the Celestials to the other IS Omnis in 3058, 3067, and 3085 doesn't show them to be overly lacking in available weight.  I didn't get into comparing free crits. 

Yeah, they use a lot of light and heavy PPCs, so do a lot of machines 3075+.  Interestingly enough, none of the Celestials VSPs until SB:Wolf and Blake, but Tengu heavy BA, and Rusalka heavy Omnifighter do.
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #201 on: 17 September 2019, 10:04:40 »
I imagine a bunch of the frustration comes from the C3i capabilities, and the pilot implants removing much of the issues that are presented with the celestials (small cockpit, use VDNI to remove the penalty, use pain shunts to remove VDNI penalty, etc.).

I think in the end these are, more or less, some of the best zombie mechs being piloted by zombies.  I would think there would be just as much frustration if someone just brought a lance of Awesome 8Q to a 3025 game, only just a slightly less amount of frustration because the pilots aren't nigh on invincible.

There is also probably some stubbornness and dislike in general at the story line.  It seems there is a big split of players that just stop playing at 3068 because everything not created by FASA is heresy and heresy is bad.  Personally I like the 3070's because every major power is in a major fight.

Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #202 on: 17 September 2019, 10:11:11 »
Another thing that adds to some of the durability for the Celestials is the games they play with the gyro.

I think you get a mix of the forbidden- aka, the atrocity faction- and when we as players are told 'they stop being used within 15 years!'

Of course . . . since by the 3140s its been oh . . . 80 years, what a twist it would be to see Stone trotting out 'frails' Celestials.
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Ryumyo

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #203 on: 20 September 2019, 00:15:25 »
You mean Kheper and Uraeus? The " not - Celestials " of the reborn Comguards of the 1st Division AKA Buhl's Blessed in the Dark Ages. Or others that use Celestial like chassis such as the Capellan built Vandal Omnimech?

Caedis Animus

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #204 on: 20 September 2019, 01:56:13 »
I got the sudden impression that at least some of the Celestials were actually meant to take on Clanspec configs similar to the R config of early IS Omnimechs, considering the Blakists hated the Clans so much and wanted them wiped out-if they wanted a second op bulldog, I'd imagine Celestials would've taken the lion's share of Clanspec salvage.

All the base configs, due to oddities, typically struck me as 'experimental' or 'making do'. Aside from the whole 'Optimized mechs with cyber-optimized pilots would be optimized to be devoid of 'fun'' thing.
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #205 on: 20 September 2019, 08:49:25 »
Yep.  The WoB wanted to reunite the Inner Sphere to destroy the Clan threat once and for all, and the Manei Domini were going to lead the push with all their fancy tech.  Then the WoB, understandably, got butt hurt about the Star League disbanding just as they joined.  Instead of attempting to use words to describe their feelings or attack the Invader Clans without full Inner Sphere support and lead by example, they decided to engage in the deadliest war since the 2nd Succession.  Once their backs were against a wall, it became a free-for-all in terms of weapon use.

But the WoB will return to guide the Inner Sphere to peace and put out the Clan threat.  All in due time.

Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #206 on: 20 September 2019, 10:12:57 »
You mean Kheper and Uraeus? The " not - Celestials " of the reborn Comguards of the 1st Division AKA Buhl's Blessed in the Dark Ages. Or others that use Celestial like chassis such as the Capellan built Vandal Omnimech?

I know of those, and no they are not what I meant- they are not Omnis after all.  I meant something like a new Exemplar Omnimech, which curiously looks a lot like Archangel . . .
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grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #207 on: 20 September 2019, 10:26:14 »
I imagine a bunch of the frustration comes from the C3i capabilities, and the pilot implants removing much of the issues that are presented with the celestials (small cockpit, use VDNI to remove the penalty, use pain shunts to remove VDNI penalty, etc.). 
Celestials seem to like their big smacky weapons over having secondaries, so that -1 To Hit, stacked on already elite pilots probably contributes to the annoyance.

I know of those, and no they are not what I meant- they are not Omnis after all.  I meant something like a new Exemplar Omnimech, which curiously looks a lot like Archangel . . .

Which book is the Exemplar in?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #208 on: 20 September 2019, 10:54:54 »
Does not exist, I just used it as a example- hinting it was a Archangel clone with a bit of updating to be a new Republic Omni that came out after the Fortress wall dropped.  If unfrozen Stone could get a Archangel with updated tech, like Ferro-Lam armor, and those version hinted at that did not have small cockpits.  Well, its been over 70 years since the Jihad so rolling out something similar might happen . . .
Colt Ward

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