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Author Topic: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?  (Read 7371 times)

Robroy

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #30 on: 08 August 2019, 09:17:52 »
And they have these things called libraries and  memory cores, automated factories and refineries.

There is no rationale behind a "tech slide"....in anything, the relatively heavy loss of infrastructure gives them an ability to easily upgrade much of their infrastructure.

At worst, you could argue the Clans progress might have stalled while they retrained and reestablished  a scientist caste and allowed the Inner Sphere to catch up but that was happening anyway.

In the BT universe, yeah it has been plenty of reason for regression. All depends on what the plot demands.

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Talen5000

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #31 on: 08 August 2019, 12:15:15 »
In the BT universe, yeah it has been plenty of reason for regression. All depends on what the plot demands.

Because the libraries and core, factories and techs were destroyed. Because  commercial secrets were lost. And because everyone was affected. Not to mention ComStar.

Those scenarios did not happen in the Wars of Reaving. The entire scientist caste was not destroyed.

There is no reason to expect tech degradation.
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Talen5000

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #32 on: 08 August 2019, 12:25:22 »
Has that been confirmed as canon? From the source* it sounded more like a hypothetical scenario than hard fact.

*Campaign Operations, p. 180

Last it was commented on, yes.

The post confirming it should still be on the boards somewhere.

However, given its nature, easy enough to retcon or redesignate as an example rather than canon

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pixelgeek

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #33 on: 08 August 2019, 13:16:34 »
There is no reason to expect tech degradation.

Have to agree. The loss of technology in the Inner Sphere was caused by a confluence of events and not just the loss of scientists. Also, Comstar’s efforts to eliminate scientists and science programs was probably far more focused and deliberate than what occurred in the Reaving. The IS lost people, factories and data over an extended period of time which caused the decay of IS tech levels.

Sartris

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #34 on: 08 August 2019, 13:55:37 »
Yeah this was more like a duel to the death where the victor suffered wounds but wasn’t maimed. They still have their sword and their house wasn’t burned down.

The only remnant of the battle over time is rage

RifleMech

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #35 on: 09 August 2019, 08:28:49 »
memory cores are useless without electricity. They also can't be read without the right computer. It's like putting a library on a MicroSD card and the only computers available use 1.25 in floppy disks.


As for reaving of the Scientists, while the entire caste wasn't reaved many many individuals were. That's an incredible loss of knowledge and experience.  It won't easily be replaced even if they still have memory cores.

Talen5000

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #36 on: 09 August 2019, 10:27:11 »
memory cores are useless without electricity. They also can't be read without the right computer. It's like putting a library on a MicroSD card and the only computers available use 1.25 in floppy disks.

And this is relevant to the homeworlds...how?

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As for reaving of the Scientists, while the entire caste wasn't reaved many many individuals were. That's an incredible loss of knowledge and experience.  It won't easily be replaced even if they still have memory cores.

Yep - hence "slowed down", but not eliminated or regressed. The Clans were also big into recording knowledge so whatever projects they were working on likely survived.

No, they'll need to rebuild and ensure the loyalty of their scientists but there is no reason behind a regression of tech.
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Wotan

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #37 on: 09 August 2019, 14:55:13 »
There is definitely a slow down in production rate as many factories are damaged or destroyed. Sources normally only name factories, with mech assembly lines. But we also know that there are dozens of component suppliers for each mech. We can also expect that trade of necessary parts is broken as remaining ressources and factories must be allocated to each surviving clan, new trade agreements must be settled etc.

But sure as hell we don't see a tech decrease like we had seen in the Succession Wars. Even more i still think the homeworld clans will focus on new development as they know the day will come to face their tainted brethren. And they will be prepared - more so with the lead of the Adders.

RifleMech

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #38 on: 10 August 2019, 03:35:43 »
And this is relevant to the homeworlds...how?

Yep - hence "slowed down", but not eliminated or regressed. The Clans were also big into recording knowledge so whatever projects they were working on likely survived.

No, they'll need to rebuild and ensure the loyalty of their scientists but there is no reason behind a regression of tech.

You can't read memory cores if you lose the power plants. You'd have to rebuild them before you can read the core and you can't do that if those in the know are dead.

And yet the Clans seemed to forget that the Imp was one of their designs when they sent some along with Wolf's Dragoons.

Again if those with the know how are dead, you're starting all over.  A scientist may know how to design a small laser but not how to design the factory to make it.

Wotan

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #39 on: 10 August 2019, 06:27:09 »
And yet the Clans seemed to forget that the Imp was one of their designs when they sent some along with Wolf's Dragoons.

Most likely there were Scientists within the clans who had known that - but the warriors didn't ask them.  ;)

RifleMech

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #40 on: 10 August 2019, 09:54:28 »
Most likely there were Scientists within the clans who had known that - but the warriors didn't ask them.  ;)

 :) Could be.  :thumbsup:

Talen5000

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #41 on: 10 August 2019, 10:11:04 »
You can't read memory cores if you lose the power plants. You'd have to rebuild them before you can read the core and you can't do that if those in the know are dead.

The Clans never lost power plants and those in the know aren't dead. Just reduced in number.


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Again if those with the know how are dead, you're starting all over.  A scientist may know how to design a small laser but not how to design the factory to make it.

Which is not going to happen anyway. Weapon Masters probably aren't going to have an extensive knowledge of robotics and AI necessary to build  a Clan factory, other scientists and engineers would and do. As we know the Home Clans are rebuilding...WoRS....we know both groups survived.

There is going to be disruption, certainly...but no tech regression and the Clans did not blow themselves back to the stone age. The only Clan that had to seriously destroy its scientist caste were the Coyotes. And they Trialled for more to rebuild.
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Gaiiten

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #42 on: 10 August 2019, 12:37:05 »
You may consider that the Scientist caste of the Clans was a very secretive and hardly a united.
Mistrust, jiggery-pokeries, favouritism, petty jealousy, cabals-within-cabals were characteristics.
If you have worked in universities you may imagine what I mean, but might multiply this by factor 25.

In WoR we are told that there was hardly a well-organized strategic/theoretical researchment in the scientist caste, partly because the warriors did not want this due neglecting and ignorance, partly because the scientists were too easygoing/lazy.
IMHO most of the technological breakthroughs/advancements were done by the engineer-subcaste.

Post WoR this might change, depending what the "Great Game" of the Home Clans for the future might be.
Due the destruction the "Inner Chains" of the scientist caste (because of the destruction of the Society and killing of most of the old scientist caste leadership) and approval by the warriors there could be a renaissance of science among the Home Clans.

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Due the decimation of the scientist caste I believe the Clans could add some numbers if they recruit the brightest among the technican caste.
Furthermore I believe among the technicans might be a number of ex-scientists which were degraded because some issues (even due some intrigues).
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Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #43 on: 10 August 2019, 16:52:57 »
Perhaps the remnants of the Society and WOB will find each other and make common cause. if they take in enough of the disaffected, outcast and angry from both IS and Clan. perhaps they can become strong enough to take revenge on somebody. The Homeworld clans might be the easier target.

Maingunnery

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #44 on: 10 August 2019, 17:16:27 »
Due the destruction the "Inner Chains" of the scientist caste (because of the destruction of the Society and killing of most of the old scientist caste leadership) and approval by the warriors there could be a renaissance of science among the Home Clans.
Nope, the blame lay fully on the warriors there, they forced the scientists to research a lot in secret, which in turn made the Society grow.
It is the very obsession on the Warrior (DNA) which lead to technological stagnation in the Clans. And unless something fundamentally changes, it will just happen again.
What we can expect is: recovery -> adaptation -> growth -> stagnation
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RifleMech

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #45 on: 11 August 2019, 10:38:20 »
The Clans never lost power plants and those in the know aren't dead. Just reduced in number.


Which is not going to happen anyway. Weapon Masters probably aren't going to have an extensive knowledge of robotics and AI necessary to build  a Clan factory, other scientists and engineers would and do. As we know the Home Clans are rebuilding...WoRS....we know both groups survived.

There is going to be disruption, certainly...but no tech regression and the Clans did not blow themselves back to the stone age. The only Clan that had to seriously destroy its scientist caste were the Coyotes. And they Trialled for more to rebuild.

Weren't entire enclaves destroyed though and others heavily damaged? That's going to effect things like power generation and reading and even survival of memory cores.

Yes they did. We also know that the gutted scientist class was less than the one before the reavings. It can't be anything else when so many experienced and knowledgeable people are killed. That make it much more difficult for them to rebuild. It isn't just read a book push a button and the factory starts cranking out new mechs. You've got to rebuild the factory first which requires a lot of other learning.

All we know about the homeclans is that they hadn't blown themselves back into the stone age at that time. Since then...? If we knew the book we hope for would be out already. :)

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #46 on: 11 August 2019, 12:38:35 »

A couple things on power plants as useful military targets in the Clan Homeworlds...

One, the nature of Clan settlements — where multiple competing Clans each have their own independent enclaves on a world — probably means that there is no large, integrated power grid or large, centralized power production on most worlds.  Because each enclave can’t trust its neighbors not to declare a Trial of Whatever next month, each enclave likely maintains its own, smaller scale, independent power source(s).  Knocking out the power at Adder Enclave A likely has little or no effect on Cobra Enclave C down the road.  (Heck, there may not even be a road connecting the two, forget power lines and transformers.)

Two, unless your enclave is running a really big, power hungry industrial process, there may not even be a large power plant within your enclave.  Rather, each block or building may have its own small-scale fusion source, not dissimilar to the small-scale fusion engines found in all kinds of mechs, combat vehicles, support vehicles, and transportation (or the real-world small-scale fission plants being bandied about today).  If you churn out thousands of small fusion power sources with weights measured in the single tons for civilian transport and military vehicles anyway, it makes no sense to build an enormous, one-off, multi-thousand ton fusion plant and all the associated power distribution for an enclave’s stationary power needs.  Just churn out more of those small fusion power sources and hook one up to each new building or block.  This means that even within an enclave, there may be no central power plant to be targeted.  If you want to take out the power to the enclave, you may have to level each building or block and it’s associated small fusion power source.

That’s my head canon, anyway.

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Talen5000

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #47 on: 11 August 2019, 14:26:14 »
Weren't entire enclaves destroyed though and others heavily damaged? That's going to effect things like power generation and reading and even survival of memory cores.

Locally - maybe. If batteries didn't exist and if there were not other enclaves that didn't get destroyed or targetted/.

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Yes they did. We also know that the gutted scientist class was less than the one before the reavings. It can't be anything else when so many experienced and knowledgeable people are killed.

Lesser is not the same as eradicated, or damaged to the point that rebuilding is impossible.
There is no sign or evidence the situation in the homeworlds ever got that bad and since we know scientists did survive and that the home Clans are rebuilding, every reason to suggest that a regression did not happen.

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That make it much more difficult for them to rebuild. It isn't just read a book push a button and the factory starts cranking out new mechs. You've got to rebuild the factory first which requires a lot of other learning.

And there is NOTHING to suggest that learning was eradicated from the homeworlds. You can surmise, but the evidence we have tells us that if the Clans are rebuilding, they must have some one capable of rebuilding.

The scientists caste was reduced, but given the emphasis they put on the recording of knowledge, the idea that entire areas of knowledge was wiped out is ridiculous. You had large numbers wiped out, but many also survived..including the senior scientists of the remaining Clans AND the scientists they took as isorla.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 14:30:03 by Talen5000 »
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truetanker

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #48 on: 13 August 2019, 21:47:38 »
Well I know according to WoR and Sup., that CSL has been trialing for and winning whole units to it's cause. Also I further know we have one of the few remaining Naval slips left in known clan space. Our aero factories produce a lot of spares, it's the lack of ground forces that are hurting us. With only two Galaxies to defend several planets. Time will tell...

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RifleMech

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #49 on: 14 August 2019, 02:48:17 »
A couple things on power plants as useful military targets in the Clan Homeworlds...

One, the nature of Clan settlements — where multiple competing Clans each have their own independent enclaves on a world — probably means that there is no large, integrated power grid or large, centralized power production on most worlds.  Because each enclave can’t trust its neighbors not to declare a Trial of Whatever next month, each enclave likely maintains its own, smaller scale, independent power source(s).  Knocking out the power at Adder Enclave A likely has little or no effect on Cobra Enclave C down the road.  (Heck, there may not even be a road connecting the two, forget power lines and transformers.)

Two, unless your enclave is running a really big, power hungry industrial process, there may not even be a large power plant within your enclave.  Rather, each block or building may have its own small-scale fusion source, not dissimilar to the small-scale fusion engines found in all kinds of mechs, combat vehicles, support vehicles, and transportation (or the real-world small-scale fission plants being bandied about today).  If you churn out thousands of small fusion power sources with weights measured in the single tons for civilian transport and military vehicles anyway, it makes no sense to build an enormous, one-off, multi-thousand ton fusion plant and all the associated power distribution for an enclave’s stationary power needs.  Just churn out more of those small fusion power sources and hook one up to each new building or block.  This means that even within an enclave, there may be no central power plant to be targeted.  If you want to take out the power to the enclave, you may have to level each building or block and it’s associated small fusion power source.

That’s my head canon, anyway.


Aren't the Clans resource poor? That seems like a lot of resources.



Locally - maybe. If batteries didn't exist and if there were not other enclaves that didn't get destroyed or targetted/.

Batteries are not going to power a memory core.


Quote
Lesser is not the same as eradicated, or damaged to the point that rebuilding is impossible.
There is no sign or evidence the situation in the homeworlds ever got that bad and since we know scientists did survive and that the home Clans are rebuilding, every reason to suggest that a regression did not happen.

Yes Scientists survived but we also know that the rebuilding was hampered by the loss of so many scientists. That means they lost a lot of knowledge and that the survivors had to learn more. A metallurgist isn't necessarily going to understand genetics. A young scientist isn't going to know the tricks an experienced scientist might. An old scientist may not have the energy and stamina a younger scientist might, and so on.



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And there is NOTHING to suggest that learning was eradicated from the homeworlds. You can surmise, but the evidence we have tells us that if the Clans are rebuilding, they must have some one capable of rebuilding.

I never said learning was eradicated. However when you eliminated the experienced teachers learning suffers. It's like a basic math teacher having to teach algebra. And again the rebuilding was hampered by the loss of much of the scientist caste.


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The scientists caste was reduced, but given the emphasis they put on the recording of knowledge, the idea that entire areas of knowledge was wiped out is ridiculous. You had large numbers wiped out, but many also survived..including the senior scientists of the remaining Clans AND the scientists they took as isorla.

Considering entire enclaves were destroyed it shouldn't be unbelievable that knowledge was destroyed also. Especially considering how secretive the scientists were. There's no way of knowing what projects were lost. And scientists taken from others helps the one clan and hampers the other.

Talen5000

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #50 on: 14 August 2019, 05:12:47 »
Batteries are not going to power a memory core.

Why not?

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Yes Scientists survived but we also know that the rebuilding was hampered by the loss of so many scientists. That means they lost a lot of knowledge

Or that they had too few scientists for the tasks available. The Clans ARE rebuilding, they ARE recovering, and even if scientific experience was lost, the surviving Clans (mostly) retained their existing scientist caste AND Absorbed the remaining scientists castes of other Clans. What you have is not a situation where knowledge was lost, but where the scientific resources of four or five Clans are trying to support the scientific needs of fifteen while also diverting some of those resources into training others to take up the slack.

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and that the survivors had to learn more. A metallurgist isn't necessarily going to understand genetics. A young scientist isn't going to know the tricks an experienced scientist might. An old scientist may not have the energy and stamina a younger scientist might, and so on.

All of which is irrelevant. The problem with the homeworld Clans does not appear to be a loss of knowledge or even, to a large degree, a loss of experience. It is a lack of numbers.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #51 on: 14 August 2019, 13:58:28 »
Aren't the Clans resource poor?

The Clans don’t appear to be poor in fusion engines.  Even their lightest combat vehicle, the lowly Shamash, built by the poorest Clan, the Blood Spirits, employs a 60-rated fusion engine.

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That seems like a lot of resources.

It depends on where the economy of scale lies.

If you already have lots of production lines for various small fusion engines — as the Clans appear to— it’s almost certainly cheaper to just churn out more copies of those small power plants for stationary use rather than build a big, one-off power plant and all the  associated power distribution infrastructure.

If you have no existing small fusion engine production lines, then it may be cheaper to build one, very large fusion powerplant and all the associated power transmission equipment rather than create a production line for smaller fusion engines from scratch.  But that’s not the situation with the Clans.

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Yes Scientists survived but we also know that the rebuilding was hampered by the loss of so many scientists. That means they lost a lot of knowledge and that the survivors had to learn more.

Maybe.  Like with the power infrastructure, there should be a lot of independent duplication across the Clans when it comes to technical knowledge.  Anytime one Clan makes an advancement (new phenotype, weapon, design, etc.) that knowledge quickly spreads to the other Clans through trials, trade, or isorla.  The only knowledge that could be permanently lost is knowledge possessed by only one or a few Clans, and there doesn’t appear to be much of that kind of knowledge at all.  Yes, the Blood Spirits, Fire Mandrills, and Steel Vipers lost the knowledge to produce ER Pulse Lasers because they went extinct.  But the Cloud Cobras, Coyotes, and Star Adders didn’t.  That knowledge still resides with those Clans.

This discussion really comes down to what degree Society machinations and Warrior Caste inattention was holding back Scientist Caste progress prior to the Wars of Reaving.  To a degree, it doesn’t matter how many smart, knowledgeable experts you have at your disposal if the bulk of their work is being diverted by a cabal (like the Society) or ignored by their customers/leadership (Warrior Caste).

The Wars of Reaving certainly shrank the the Scientist Caste in the Homeworlds and may have resulted in the loss of certain, limited knowledge bases that the surviving four Clans never had access to.  But it may not matter after the Wars of Reaving because the research output of the remaining Scientist Caste is now being fully directed towards and utilized by those four surviving Clans.  Who knows what technical knowledge the Homeworlds Clans are capable of recovering or advancing with the Warrior Caste finally paying attention and no secret cabal keeping the best research for itself.
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"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
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"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
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Jellico

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #52 on: 14 August 2019, 18:27:41 »
Or the scientist caste is being closely monitored for political reliability and only allowed to research acceptable subjects in line with accepted political ideology.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #53 on: 14 August 2019, 20:35:40 »
Or the scientist caste is being closely monitored for political reliability and only allowed to research acceptable subjects in line with accepted political ideology.

Sure, no more research on Feralize.  But also no more dumbing down or hiding advances like iATMs.  There’s potential in that.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Jellico

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #54 on: 14 August 2019, 22:04:03 »
I don't think that the Warriors are qualified to make those decisions. You could hand one a screwdriver and they would want you to make it a better hammer.

As a society the Clans aren't set up to handle speculative research. They are too focused on immediate gains with a focus on the military. It is telling in all the advances listed in the various Manuals the only civilian items are "asteroid mining" and advanced wheat. You don't have to be a military genius to work out the military benefits of those but those types of developments seem rare.

Sartris

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #55 on: 14 August 2019, 22:07:12 »
advanced wheat.

it grows almost twice as tall, has twice the standard yield, and produces a third of the chaff

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #56 on: 14 August 2019, 23:25:01 »
I don't think that the Warriors are qualified to make those decisions.

Sure they are.  Military brass inform directions in research, set requirements, and decide downselects all the time in real-world R&D.  They’re the customer.  You really can’t develop new weapons technologies and systems without them.

You could hand one a screwdriver and they would want you to make it a better hammer.

This is stereotyped nonsense about military types.  You can’t be a knuckle-dragging idiot with no understanding of the science and engineering behind a tank or fighter and still expect to lead a tank platoon or pilot a fighter.  This would be even more true with the even more advanced and sophisticated weapons platforms in the BTU.  Just because that Elemental can beat us to a pulp without breaking a sweat doesn’t mean he lacks a substantial education in and intimate understanding of how the myomers in his battlesuits work and has no ideas for how those myomers could be improved.

It is telling in all the advances listed in the various Manuals the only civilian items are "asteroid mining" and advanced wheat.

That observation indicates only three, very limited things:

1) The writer for the Ghost Bear entry was the only one to think of mentioning civvie tech, or

2) Mentions of civvie tech in other Clans were edited out of their entries before they went to print, and

3) The game is called “BattleTech” for a reason.  If we wanted to play out mining and agriculture production, we’d be breaking out Settlers of Catan, not a Clan sourcebook.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #57 on: 15 August 2019, 05:39:28 »
Sure they are.  Military brass inform directions in research, set requirements, and decide downselects all the time in real-world R&D.  They’re the customer.  You really can’t develop new weapons technologies and systems without them.
And so the Clans didn't for a long time. They were satisfied with the technology that they had and made the scientists focus on the eugenics (for making better warriors).
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Gaiiten

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #58 on: 15 August 2019, 09:21:54 »
It depends what "Great Game" the Home Clans will want to play in the future.

Given the Star Adders long-term thinking and strategic planning the Home Clans might give the scientist caste a far broader field to research and new technologies and theories to develop.

Furthermore, given the latest hints I have got the impression that the civil castes of all Home Clans have cooperated more and more after the WoR.
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Southern Coyote

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Re: Do you think we will ever see the homeworld clans again?
« Reply #59 on: 16 August 2019, 13:00:39 »
After the Wars of Reaving there has been no information on what is happening with the homeworld clans.  I know Battletech is and always has been predominantly a story about the Inner sphere but does anyone think there is enough interest for either a second clan invasion after ilclan or a sourcebook on "here what's been happening with the homeworld clans since 3076?  I mean there is roughly 75 years of potential growth, destruction, self-annihilation for them from the last we heard of them to the current timeline.

I know there hasn't been any official word on the matter but common fan theories, personal speculations?

I think this biggest indicator will be if the HW Clans gain any new fans in the next few years.  This game has been around forever, and there are a lot of dedicated fans.  The new box sets and kickstarter will attract new people who will become fans of various and bring back old players (like me!). 

But at the end of the day, what product is going to sell?  I feel like unless the HW Clans get a lot of new fans and interest, that any information of them will constantly be dropped in favor of other more popular factions.  I am a BIG HW clan fan, especially the Coyotes.  I love the WoR and what happened in the HW.  I always felt the HW Clans have more flavor and personality than the IS Clans.  But besides a few, very loyal diehard fans, the IS Clans seem to have more of a following.  And that is your market when you're making a product. 
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