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Author Topic: Core Rulebook Splitting  (Read 32232 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #270 on: 14 October 2019, 05:25:01 »
it tells you when equipment shifts from prototype to production to common. the key at the beginning of the table explains how that correlates to I/TL/A/E rules levels

*sigh* once upon the time most of these tech levels were purely defined by rules complexity, with experimental being the only one that actually depended on in universe information.

I can't for the life of me imagine why they thought making most of them era dependent was a good idea.
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idea weenie

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #271 on: 14 October 2019, 05:26:04 »
Given that GURPS Basic Set (Hardcopy) books are numbered in exactly this fashion, I doubt it's going to be a problem.

Or we might have to go the Starfleet Battles style, where you have numbered paragraphs/chapters and edits based on those numbers.

So if you update rules for jumping for Battlearmor, you would have to list it under either:
Battlearmor.Jumping.01
Jumping.Battlearmor.01

The arranging would be based on how we want to order the rules to make it easier to use.

Similarly, for construction, you would list tables by the name of the chapter, rather than the number of the chapter (or the page number).

RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #272 on: 14 October 2019, 06:22:26 »
it tells you when equipment shifts from prototype to production to common. the key at the beginning of the table explains how that correlates to I/TL/A/E rules levels

Okay. Found it. Thank you. And what a pain. Unlike the tables in TO that would tell players what the rule level was now players have to figure it out for themselves.



If they don't have the relevant product then it isn't an issue then is it?

If is if they can't get the relevant product. If they can't get the product, will they continue to invest in the game? 


It's an issue, has been an issue for a long time given how many books stuff is spread over. One they're moving to fix. In the meantime stuff is available PDF.

But they haven't fixed it. Things keep getting left out and new items get created. And PDFs are useful but its still a pain to have to hunt for the rules. I know some of it is to get players to buy new books. No problem with that. But after a certain point they should be put into the core rule books. Why make things more difficult for players than it needs to be?

At the bare minimum why not at a note explaining TO's in universe date, that things change in the future and to please see the table in IO for the changes?

And why leave things out of the sourcebooks, when making the core rule books? If they're not included are they still legal?


Given that GURPS Basic Set (Hardcopy) books are numbered in exactly this fashion, I doubt it's going to be a problem.

Battletech isn't GURPS.




Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #273 on: 14 October 2019, 07:42:30 »
*sigh* once upon the time most of these tech levels were purely defined by rules complexity, with experimental being the only one that actually depended on in universe information.

I can't for the life of me imagine why they thought making most of them era dependent was a good idea.

A simpler time to be sure. The system broke down once they started releasing canon designs into the mainstream with TacOps gear. At this point fretting over rules complexity has become a bit anachronistic anyway as so many units post 3067 run that equipment.

Tournament Legal was supposed to be a game complexity designation - either something is held back because it’s not suitable (artillery) or it’s allowed. The advanced / experimental split seems more and more irrelevant, especially in the forward arc as so little experiments gear exists. We’ve been at the point where TO has been a required purchase for a decade.

Perhaps it’s time to go back to a level 2/3 split where you have an era-agnostic list of forbidden gear. Any other unit is allowed in a game after its intro date in any MUL-listed factions. The IO list is there for the ultras who demand that kind of crunchiness.

Ultimately all of this a rather bland argument shaded by personal preferences. Nothing is going to happen for the next several years until TW2: Totaler War retires the current core rulebooks. The reprint of TacOps was never intended to take on this particular problem

Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #274 on: 14 October 2019, 09:00:21 »
Okay. Found it. Thank you. And what a pain. Unlike the tables in TO that would tell players what the rule level was now players have to figure it out for themselves.
*snip*
TO has always had the best equipment table format of all the books.  When IO came out, I asked if there was any chance of getting the complete tables that way (TO format), and the answer was "no".

monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #275 on: 14 October 2019, 10:56:49 »
It's an issue, has been an issue for a long time given how many books stuff is spread over. One they're moving to fix. In the meantime stuff is available PDF.

If is if they can't get the relevant product. If they can't get the product, will they continue to invest in the game? 

None of this really proves the case that this is information that needs to be in a core rule book.

This is setting specific information that only impact certain eras.

As previously stated some players don't play certain eras.

As far as further investment?  No matter what CGL does the vast majority of customers are going to stop at the two currently available box sets and never further invest anyway.

SCC

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #276 on: 15 October 2019, 01:38:39 »
About TO page references and the splitting: I'm not 100%, but haven't all the errata additions to-date already mucked that up?

monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #277 on: 15 October 2019, 01:48:12 »
Not sure.

I doubt it is very substantial if any have though.

Greatclub

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #278 on: 15 October 2019, 02:23:16 »
None of this really proves the case that this is information that needs to be in a core rule book.

This is setting specific information that only impact certain eras.
and some people will pick up a mini/Record sheets XXX and be pissed they don't have the rules for them.
Quote

As previously stated some players don't play certain eras.
Yeah, and? Their opponents might. You can't dictate what your table plays all the time, and it's nice to be able to have a change of pace occasionally. 
Quote
As far as further investment?  No matter what CGL does the vast majority of customers are going to stop at the two currently available box sets and never further invest anyway.
Don't kid yourself, they'll pick up the clan box too. Half will skip the beginner box if they realize it's the cut-down kiddie version.
« Last Edit: 15 October 2019, 03:39:50 by Greatclub »

SCC

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #279 on: 15 October 2019, 03:41:53 »
Not sure.

I doubt it is very substantial if any have though.
The revision of ECCM rules and the few things that have been added make it likely, if only by a page or two.

monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #280 on: 15 October 2019, 04:36:52 »
and some people will pick up a mini/Record sheets XXX and be pissed they don't have the rules for them.

Until all the rules and equipment are in one book that is always going to be a possibility.  One that can be mitigated by the buyer doing a little due diligence*.  I know that won't always happen and it is clearly impossible to have everything in one book at a reasonable price for Battletech and have sufficient return on investment.

*All of the products where this is an issue do pretty clearly say you do need TacOps in them too.

Quote
Yeah, and? Their opponents might. You can't dictate what your table plays all the time, and it's nice to be able to have a change of pace occasionally.

This is still a setting specific issue.  Something that ideally should be decided before minis hit map sheets and thus can just as easily be handled in a supplemental book.

Plus there are players who were using that equipment just fine before the products changed availibility ratings by trying to change rules levels.

Quote
Don't kid yourself, they'll pick up the clan box too. Half will skip the beginner box if they realize it's the cut-down kiddie version.

Fair enough that'd probably be another fairly introductory purchase.

But that's kind of the thing, most customers will never be impacted by not having availability changes of equipment information in the core rule books.

It's basic economics, no matter how good the product is the percentage of the consumer base that will make purchases beyond introductory products gets smaller at each step.  Often very steeply.

Ultimately all I'm saying is in the grand scheme of things with how thin we've seen the margin for error is when it comes to Battletech there are hard choices to be made about what is in a core rule book and honestly I've heard nothing so far that makes even the slightest case that this issue cannot be resolved by a supplemental product instead.  Fat needs trimmed from the core books where possible.  Like the BMM.  Just have what is absolutely neccessary to play the game in the rule books.

Which is quite fitting as it is only created by and effects people who bought certain supplemental products.

Funnily enough that's pretty much the current state of affairs we have now too.

But to be absolutely crystal clear I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules for the equipment as available as economically possible, I'm just saying any information about how common these weapons are in certain eras isn't strictly needed in the core books and thus can be relegated to supplemental books.

Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #281 on: 15 October 2019, 04:38:50 »
Current errata still references the "current" printing, so the page references are all still good.

RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #282 on: 15 October 2019, 05:07:11 »
TO has always had the best equipment table format of all the books.  When IO came out, I asked if there was any chance of getting the complete tables that way (TO format), and the answer was "no".

It does and I was hoping IO would follow it and TM would be errata'd to match.  :'( Instead the tables are even harder to find.  I don't know why TPTB would want to make things more difficult for the players.



None of this really proves the case that this is information that needs to be in a core rule book.

This is setting specific information that only impact certain eras.

As previously stated some players don't play certain eras.

As far as further investment?  No matter what CGL does the vast majority of customers are going to stop at the two currently available box sets and never further invest anyway.

Not everyone plays according to era. Many play according to rule levels.

As for the box sets. I thought the vast majority of the boxed sets were snapped up by existing fans to add to their mini collection or by online sellers planning to jack the prices up once the sets go out of production. Which is almost immediately. It's a good thing players don't need a boxed set to play.

As for due diligence it's rather difficult to do when the core rule books reference wrong page numbers or books not in existence. Right now they're okay but they weren't always. And it looks like they won't be again.  :(


Asgo

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #283 on: 15 October 2019, 05:45:25 »
...

As for due diligence it's rather difficult to do when the core rule books reference wrong page numbers or books not in existence. Right now they're okay but they weren't always. And it looks like they won't be again.  :(
independent of the "to split or not to split" question, as long as updates and changes happen to any referenced  book there is the chance that all page numbers are invalidated across the board - just adding enough text early enough that a page change happens will do that.
basically it will happen anyway at some point, which doesn't make it a reason to stop any work/updates on existing books.

if it is just page references, if you own the printed version it is easily enough manually updated to correct numbers and the pdf version might get an update anyway.

Precentor Scorpio

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #284 on: 15 October 2019, 06:53:37 »
I would rather have a core rule book for battletech; and then pamphlets (Sandhurst War College courses) for the following:  This way you only buy what you want/need
Battlearmor/Infantry
Armor
Air support
Artillery
Blue Water Operations
Urban environment
Warship and Aerospace combat
Logistics - Campaign rules
Armory - Listing of weapons (In addition to the various weapon systems, you can add the various types of munitions, swarm LRMs, infernos, and stuff like mine fields.)


monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #285 on: 15 October 2019, 11:32:50 »
Not everyone plays according to era. Many play according to rule levels.

The only way this statement makes sense is if it is in agreement with me that the information about changing rules levels is information that does not need to be included in the core rule books.

Quote
As for the box sets. I thought the vast majority of the boxed sets were snapped up by existing fans to add to their mini collection or by online sellers planning to jack the prices up once the sets go out of production. Which is almost immediately. It's a good thing players don't need a boxed set to play.

Good thing that unlike the previous box set the current ones are priced to be self sustaining and thus much easier to order a new run of.  Sure it might have a bit of delay between runs but that is a huge improvement.

But none of that changes buying habits.  Most customers only buy the basics and never make the jump to more advanced products.

Neither does it change the likely paths of how new players are going to get into the game.

Quote
As for due diligence it's rather difficult to do when the core rule books reference wrong page numbers or books not in existence. Right now they're okay but they weren't always. And it looks like they won't be again.  :(

The best way to keep that from being an issue in the future is to reference a book title and maybe a section header but not give exact page references.

Insaniac99

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #286 on: 15 October 2019, 13:32:48 »
Not everyone plays according to era. Many play according to rule levels.

Ever since Interstellar Operations, these are now tied together.

Tech that was Advanced or Experimental can become Tournament level or Advanced in the Dark Age.

Greatclub

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #287 on: 15 October 2019, 14:32:58 »
Ever since Interstellar Operations, these are now tied together.

They were tied together before then, IO just made it explicit (In a rather irritatingly formatted way)

Xotl

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #288 on: 15 October 2019, 16:03:26 »
I should note that the effect of splitting the books on errata (i.e. not supporting the older books with errata releases) is solely a decision on my part: this isn't CGL determining to drive sales of the new book by purposefully ending errata support for the old version of TO.  I'm just too busy to keep up errata support for anything other than the latest works (and I'm barely handling that).  It's the same reason that TW and such used to have separate errata docs for both the 1st and the latest printings, and now only has support for the 1st, or why ASCE is supported while the old AS support has now stopped.  It's possible that this could change at some point in the future, however, when I have more time available.

About TO page references and the splitting: I'm not 100%, but haven't all the errata additions to-date already mucked that up?

Once in a while, but this is relatively rare, since page refs almost always reference the start of the section, so it's only when a section header is bumped to another page that it matters.
« Last Edit: 18 October 2019, 16:34:46 by Xotl »
3028-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #289 on: 15 October 2019, 17:50:05 »
Dang it, how do we clone you?  ::)

Wrangler

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #290 on: 18 October 2019, 16:12:25 »
So the books were split, to cut down on errants for the old books?
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monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #291 on: 18 October 2019, 16:28:31 »
No.

The books were split due to business/economic considerations.

The unified pre-split book is not going to receive any further errata due to xotl's decision.  Only the post split new books.

 

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