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Author Topic: Core Rulebook Splitting  (Read 32862 times)

Wrangler

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #30 on: 05 August 2019, 16:43:02 »
BMM was intended as a "median step", something in between the starter rules and TW,  that was focused on being useful for the (large) majority of games played which are only using 'Mechs.
Unfortunately that's true, possibly making it into a boring game.  With TROs coming out without vehicles and other units, new players won't know about the combat vehicles unless they stumble across them in older products.
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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #31 on: 05 August 2019, 16:47:48 »
iwm has all but stopped producing vehicles outside of cons and fan funding so it doesn't appear that the people who know about them care that much either

sadlerbw

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #32 on: 05 August 2019, 17:31:42 »
In my opinion, Alpha Strike has pretty much replaced Battle Force. I don’t really see the value in continuing to re-print and manage Battle Force rules anymore. That’s just me though.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #33 on: 05 August 2019, 17:37:42 »
It's the fact that it's a Thursday that really matters in that equation.

So close to the end of the five day MechWarrior work week people get careless....

Well, its for all the troops who swore they were going to stop drinking . . . and by Wednesday night, decided they would get that New Year's goal done right next week!

Re- Vehicles
Well, we are also pretty much done on the 'main' 3085 & 3145 vehicles/BA IIRC?  It could also be that they were clued in to the franchise's shift back to mechs for all the Dark Ages combined arms talk.
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Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #34 on: 05 August 2019, 17:43:17 »
It strikes me nothing has done more to kill combined arms for the majority of fans than the clicky-tech embrace of them...

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #35 on: 05 August 2019, 17:51:11 »
In my opinion, Alpha Strike has pretty much replaced Battle Force. I don’t really see the value in continuing to re-print and manage Battle Force rules anymore. That’s just me though.

That’s a fair assessment. I included BF in the splits because I seem to remember official whispers that it was getting a rework for the new printing. My guess is it’s being turned into Voltron AS where it combines units into lances under something closer to AS rules

IMO they need to make it its own thing with different rules because there is little incentive to play it instead of straight alpha strike. Unless I missed something in the BF rules that makes it stand out on its own

Re- Vehicles
Well, we are also pretty much done on the 'main' 3085 & 3145 vehicles/BA IIRC?  It could also be that they were clued in to the franchise's shift back to mechs for all the Dark Ages combined arms talk.

Done as in we have minis for them? Not even close. I dunno what you consider “main”. BA is better off (also powered by fan funding) but vees are maybe 33% done. Even 3075 and 85 are only just over half released and 85 is almost a decade old.

It strikes me nothing has done more to kill combined arms for the majority of fans than the clicky-tech embrace of them...

I think it was the part of clixtech that made mechs at best an equal partner that turned people off the most (at least in the combined arms aspect).


Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #36 on: 05 August 2019, 17:54:21 »
When you decide to make Fraken-Industrial-'Mechs viable, it's hard NOT to make vehicles and BA equal to them.

dgorsman

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #37 on: 05 August 2019, 18:07:23 »
Not sure you can (reasonably) do regiment on regiment with Alpha Strike.  But there isn't much call for that mid-level game, I think.  It's either individual units with TW or AS, or campaign level with ISAW.

Battleforce: Voltron edition.  Now more Alpha Strike-ier than ever!
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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #38 on: 05 August 2019, 18:13:31 »
Not sure you can (reasonably) do regiment on regiment with Alpha Strike.  But there isn't much call for that mid-level game, I think.  It's either individual units with TW or AS, or campaign level with ISAW.

Battleforce: Voltron edition.  Now more Alpha Strike-ier than ever!

is there anyone who plays strategic battleforce on the regular?

Ursus Maior

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #39 on: 05 August 2019, 18:35:22 »
In my opinion, Alpha Strike has pretty much replaced Battle Force. I don’t really see the value in continuing to re-print and manage Battle Force rules anymore. That’s just me though.
Seriously, I would not be sorry - in fact happy - for all Battle Force rules to be stricken from BT products. Then integrate Battle Force rules from SO, CO, IO and whatnot into one Battle Force Compendium and make it a PDF of even a POD. But right now, that stuff is just cluttering BT core books and making them more expansive to print, buy and write errata for.

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General308

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #40 on: 05 August 2019, 21:33:46 »
I don’t disagree, but I wonder how many people actually use the Advanced rules.  Attracting new blood to the game by combining everything from the Invasion Era is a bit different than dividing up the rules for super duper heavy aircraft carriers and skidding on pavement when you’re running downhill in the rain on a Thursday.

I use the advanced rules.  But besides that some of the advanced equipment to use you need the rest of the book.  Seems odd but I am not going to pretend to undesrstand the logistics of it.

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #41 on: 05 August 2019, 21:53:23 »
I think the logistics are simple enough - they want to do it as cheaply as possible. The Solomon Chop (I’m never letting this go) let’s them get the book out the door with a minimum of fuss. They’ve weighed the development cost vs benefit and decided this is the way to go.

Which makes sense, in light of this

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66374.0

If that’s the strategy, it doesn’t make sense to pour too much into books that, while you still want to keep in print, are moving toward a different paradigm. I’d rather see a complete remodel that moves different pieces around so they fit better together but they rightly never consulted my dumb ass so here we are

Robroy

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #42 on: 06 August 2019, 05:46:55 »
Sarcasm/
Makes you wonder how we played the game with the BMR at only 161 pages with rules for mechs, vess, PBI, arty, and areo.
Sarcasm/

I think if TPTB want to lighten the books, take out what does not further a TT game.

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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #43 on: 06 August 2019, 06:25:14 »
And maxtech and AeroTech 2 and Battleforce 2 and the evolution of Operation Stiletto and Flashpoint and the succession wars box. Aero wasn’t in bmr

BMR’s only relevance here is that it had artillery

Robroy

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #44 on: 06 August 2019, 06:49:32 »
Don't have it in front of me, but okay I was thinking strafing/ bombing.

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RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #45 on: 06 August 2019, 07:31:10 »
BMM was intended as a "median step", something in between the starter rules and TW,  that was focused on being useful for the (large) majority of games played which are only using 'Mechs.

Yet it doesn't include quads.


I think the logistics are simple enough - they want to do it as cheaply as possible. The Solomon Chop (I’m never letting this go) let’s them get the book out the door with a minimum of fuss. They’ve weighed the development cost vs benefit and decided this is the way to go.

Which makes sense, in light of this

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66374.0

If that’s the strategy, it doesn’t make sense to pour too much into books that, while you still want to keep in print, are moving toward a different paradigm. I’d rather see a complete remodel that moves different pieces around so they fit better together but they rightly never consulted my dumb ass so here we are

I really hope that isn't the strategy. One of the best things about Battletech is that it has all these other units. If the strategy really to abandon everything but mechs it makes me fear for the future of Battletech.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #46 on: 06 August 2019, 08:08:19 »
Yet it doesn't include quads.
BattleMech Manual does have quads.
P15 has the lateral shift movement for quads
P19 has standing up for quads
P25 no torso twist for quads...
Etc
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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #47 on: 06 August 2019, 10:26:10 »
The answer on that is JUST TRO Era re-organization & reprint, latest SB we got- House Arano- had 1 mech, 2 vehs and a DS . . . I am about as combined arms as you can get, but BTU is about mechs and its the initial draw.  So having one of the first game aid books after the starter boxes filled with mechs is a good thing.  Anyone wanting to find vehicles is going to find them pretty readily.
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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #48 on: 06 August 2019, 11:04:13 »
this has been coming for a while now

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60405.msg1389013#msg1389013

it makes me fear for the future of Battletech.

the future hasn't been this bright in twenty-five years



vehicles are still there. it's not like they're hiding them in a new mexico warehouse that people can't get at.

Ursus Maior

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #49 on: 06 August 2019, 13:58:07 »
I really hope that isn't the strategy. One of the best things about Battletech is that it has all these other units. If the strategy really to abandon everything but mechs it makes me fear for the future of Battletech.
Abandonment isn't an issue here. One can still buy TO, SO, CO and IO as well as all the TROs and record sheets as PDFs. What CGL seems not interested to do, is to burn money in feeding the older fans the same old rules, fluff and sheets once more.

What they are interested in, how I read it, is giving new players easy access to the core game and its more advance rules in the foreseeable future. And, being honest, I don't see any newbie finding out about and enjoying vees, aero and infantry all by themselves. The material is not at all easily accessible right now. But if a new player gets a grip on the 'Mech rules and then gets into contact with us older players, we are certainly capable to point them into the right direction.



EDIT: grammar, we fight constantly, sorry you had to see the mess.
« Last Edit: 07 August 2019, 17:41:57 by Ursus Maior »
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Insaniac99

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #50 on: 06 August 2019, 14:09:06 »
Abandonment isn't an issue here. One can still buy TO, SO, CO and IO as well as all the TROs and record sheets as PDFs. What CGL seems not interested to do, is burn money in feeding the older fans the same old rules, fluff and sheets once more.

What they are interested in, how I read it, is giving new players easy access to the core game and its more advance rules in the foreseeable future. And, being honest, I don't see any newbie finding out about and enjoying vees, aero and infantry all by themselves. The material is not at all easily accessible right now. But if a new player gets a grip on the 'Mech rules and then gets into contact with us older players, we are certainly capable to point them into the right direction.

I would like a "Ground Vehicle Manual" or similar book that is a thin add-on book to the BMM because I don't think relying on Grogs to teach advanced stuff is good.  But I don't see it being profitable to do so until there's more newer players.

Adrian Gideon

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #51 on: 06 August 2019, 14:17:46 »
I would like a "Ground Vehicle Manual" or similar book that is a thin add-on book to the BMM because I don't think relying on Grogs to teach advanced stuff is good.  But I don't see it being profitable to do so until there's more newer players.
TW is in print. This is a thread about reprinting TO. The idea of a vehicle/infantry/etc “BMM” is one we’ve had since day one, but why does anyone feel like any of that has been abandoned if we still have all the information still available?

Ursus Major is 100% right.
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Insaniac99

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #52 on: 06 August 2019, 14:45:07 »
TW is in print. This is a thread about reprinting TO. The idea of a vehicle/infantry/etc “BMM” is one we’ve had since day one, but why does anyone feel like any of that has been abandoned if we still have all the information still available?

Ursus Major is 100% right.

I don't think there is a case for abandonment, but lack of ease of entry for combined arms for new people.  Mechs get the new combined TROs, the BMM, all the easy (and cheaper) plastic minis, and the box-sets in general.

  Compared to that, combined arms feel relegated to the position of "oh, well if you really want them, I guess you can find rules in this older and much more complex book" that makes them feel.... unloved is how I would phrase that.

Now to counterpoint my own thoughts, I did like seeing that the Arano book had vehicles as a prominent part.  I think future releases with them sprinkled in (Like the Elementals in the clan box) is proof that they aren't unloved and I'm personally looking forward to the rules in the Clan box possibly being the prototype of the dreams of the simplified combined arms manual.

Firesprocket

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #53 on: 06 August 2019, 16:34:59 »
I think the logistics are simple enough - they want to do it as cheaply as possible. The Solomon Chop (I’m never letting this go) let’s them get the book out the door with a minimum of fuss. They’ve weighed the development cost vs benefit and decided this is the way to go.

Which makes sense, in light of this

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66374.0
I'm glad I came across this.  The one thing I currently lack an abundance of is the TROs in PDF form.  I had plans to buy the PDFs of Succession Wars, Clan Invasion, and future volumes as the cost made more sense than going back to buy 3039, 3050, etc.  However if they have no other material other than mechs in them that nixes is that idea.

Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #54 on: 06 August 2019, 16:40:43 »
Something I forgot to ask the first time I posted in this thread... is fiction still included in the split volumes?  Because if it is, page count being an issue and fiction sticking around is going to cause some cognitive dissonance for me...

Adrian Gideon

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #55 on: 06 August 2019, 16:45:52 »
Yes, the fiction will remain just as it does in the rest of the core book series. How would that cause cognitive dissonance?
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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #56 on: 06 August 2019, 17:01:19 »
TO has 34 pages of fiction. cutting it drops the page count to 392, which i assume is still too big for the purposes of this exercise

Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #57 on: 06 August 2019, 17:07:05 »
Adding fiction in place of rules in a RULE book causes cognitive dissonance for me.  YMMV.

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #58 on: 06 August 2019, 17:15:06 »
you said the page count and split vis a vis the fiction was causing cognitive dissonance. that's a different issue than whether it belongs in the first place. i'm indifferent to its presence and it getting cut wouldn't solve the split volume issue so /shrug

Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #59 on: 06 August 2019, 17:16:20 »
Citing page count as an issue, then including non-rules is what does it for me.  Why would you add something that doesn't belong in the first place?

 

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