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Author Topic: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?  (Read 1219 times)

Black_Knyght

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Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« on: 13 September 2019, 18:17:04 »
Looking over the stats and such for the re-engineered, VSP, and X-pulse lasers, all I can conclude is WTF?

What was the thinking here, and at what point did ANY of these sound like a viable or worthwhile idea? Am I missing some game changing detail, or are each of these more trouble than benefit?

dgorsman

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #1 on: 13 September 2019, 18:25:34 »
I like the VSP and x-pulse.  Haven't played with the RELs enough for an opinion.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #2 on: 13 September 2019, 18:33:47 »
Make sure to check the errata on Reengineered Lasers, they're much better than their original stats.

X-pulse lasers are iffy, I'm not a fan

VSPLs are surprisingly fun.

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Robroy

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #3 on: 13 September 2019, 18:37:48 »
I like the x-pulse as they cut down the range gap the Clan pulse have.

The VSP, IMHO, weigh to much for the benefit.

Have not played with the re-engineered.

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Retry

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #4 on: 13 September 2019, 18:54:06 »
Looking over the stats and such for the re-engineered, VSP, and X-pulse lasers, all I can conclude is WTF?

What was the thinking here, and at what point did ANY of these sound like a viable or worthwhile idea? Am I missing some game changing detail, or are each of these more trouble than benefit?
Re-Engineered lasers get a -1 to-hit bonus (like a mini Pulse) and ignore armor effects like Reflective and Ferro-Lamellor and Hardened.  The medium is a bit too hot and heavy to be worthwhile, the small more so, but the Large is decent.  Very good against Hardened.

The X-Pulse is pretty good, just outshined by Clan lasers.  Hotter than the IS pulses but with actual useful ranges.  The Small X-Pulse laser is a great anti-infantry gun you can put on something in a pinch.

VSPs... Eh, WoB weirdness.

Greatclub

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #5 on: 13 September 2019, 19:04:32 »
X-Pulse - resulted from people whining about how IS pulse lasers suck due to having no range. Fixed, at a cost.  maxtech, 1997

VSPL - Designed unstintingly for close range. For 4 tons you can get a 9 point hit with -3 to-hit. That's a spider's dream. The fact that you do have a not-bad long range doesn't hurt either, but the meat is short range. Jihad books, mid '00s

Re-engineered. Screw over people in 3145 who rock specialist armor, basically paper to their rock. Inefficient otherwise. probably early 2010s

none come close to matching the effectiveness/efficiency of the medium laser, but nothing really does.
« Last Edit: 13 September 2019, 19:31:04 by Greatclub »

Sartris

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #6 on: 13 September 2019, 21:31:54 »
Welcome to the wonderful world of IS sidegrades (aka weapons that shouldn’t exist but having all these extra options makes more sense than melding the tech bases after 3090 because reasons). Are any of them amazing? No. But neither are they useless.

You laugh at vspl until they have back shots on you at -3. They’re decent weapons. Not great, but usable

RE’s real value is against hardened. Yes this is a very limited scope. Though in the context of davion v kurita in the DA where the DCMS is one of the heaviest users of specialized armor, they make sense

Xpulse I go back an forth on. I’ve found mediums to be the most useful. Multiple heavies just run too hot

dgorsman

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #7 on: 13 September 2019, 22:12:34 »
Make sure to check the errata on Reengineered Lasers, they're much better than their original stats.

Which errata to which set of stats?
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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #8 on: 13 September 2019, 22:57:51 »
Hey, don't get me wrong, but do you really need to create a thread to discuss every single weapon in the game?  ???

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #9 on: 13 September 2019, 23:11:42 »
Which errata to which set of stats?

They got errata in Interstellar Operations, giving them a-1 to hit. It might have also dropped the heat a little but don't quote me on that.

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Brakiel

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #10 on: 14 September 2019, 06:42:52 »
@OP

X-Pulse Lasers: Solid but not universally applicable upgrade to standard pulse lasers. The bump in range makes all the difference. But don't try to 1-to-1 refit something like a Penetrator or Wraith with X-Pulses. The Large is a bit too hot for my tastes, but it makes for a decent main gun for a light. The Medium and Small are definitely major winners.

Re-engineered Lasers: Niche weapon, but good for mounting on an OmniMech where I can swap them in and out. I might take a couple of lasers just as a hedge against the prolific specialty armors in the Dark Age, but I rather prefer something like MMLs or Autocannons where I can switch out the ammo to match the situation.

Variable Speed Pulse Lasers: I go back and forth between delight and frustration. On the one hand, that sweet, sweet -3 hit mod. On the other hand, sometimes the range or damage values irk me. The Medium VSPL having just a 2 hex short range, same as the Small? The Large VSPL not hitting the magic 12 damage threshold? It all really boils down to the design and how the battle shapes up, so mileage varies greatly.

They got errata in Interstellar Operations, giving them a-1 to hit. It might have also dropped the heat a little but don't quote me on that.

Yeah, they all used to generate one more point of heat. The same errata dropped their heat to match their damage.

The Large ReL is an interesting beast with the current rules. Give it a TarComp and it's a bit more efficient than a Large X-Pulse Laser with the bonus of cutting through specialty armor.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #11 on: 14 September 2019, 06:46:10 »
What's weird to me, is that the Davions didn't start making purpose-built armor-defeating ballistics before they made armor-defeating lasers (Especially considering the Dracs also made Ballistic Reinforced). Adding yet another Autocannon Style sounds just about the style of the Davvies.

EDIT; Actually, to stack on the baffling, there's not even an Atlas III that makes use of RE Lasers.
« Last Edit: 14 September 2019, 06:47:49 by Caedis Animus »
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Brakiel

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #12 on: 14 September 2019, 07:08:13 »
What's weird to me, is that the Davions didn't start making purpose-built armor-defeating ballistics before they made armor-defeating lasers (Especially considering the Dracs also made Ballistic Reinforced). Adding yet another Autocannon Style sounds just about the style of the Davvies.

EDIT; Actually, to stack on the baffling, there's not even an Atlas III that makes use of RE Lasers.

I was about to say that Armor Piercing AC Ammo treats specialty armor as normal, but flipping through my copy of InterstellarOps, Ballistic Reinforced doesn't seem to treat AP any differently. That seems weird to me, but at least Hardened and Ferro Lam take full damage.

Kidd

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #13 on: 14 September 2019, 08:46:19 »
Some players dislike sidegrades. I think that sidegrades are great for replayability value. You can have lots of fun exploring different playstyles.

XPLs are what IS PLs should always have been, and sync extremely well with standard lasers

VSPLs are more situational than XPLs, basically they only stand out at near melee range. Some players really like that though and if you think how often tabletop Btech devolves into a physical brawl, you know you'll always end up using them if you bring them

I haven't touched RELs even with the errata, I'm not sure they're worth it

RifleMech

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #14 on: 14 September 2019, 23:21:50 »
I think sidegrades are great and they go with the early fluff for how this brand was better than another or more reliable or operated differently but just as good. The variety of weapons we have now let us do that in a way.


SteelRaven

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #15 on: 14 September 2019, 23:43:59 »
You forgot Blazer
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Firesprocket

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #16 on: 14 September 2019, 23:51:37 »
You feelings on the different types of lasers as with mine, will vary.  My opinions after playing with each of these weapons at one point or another is as follows:

Re-Engineered lasers-  Before errata these weapons sucked.  With errata they are merely, okay or good when you are fighting a force that has the armor types this weapon is made to defeat.  The -1 to hit and heat produced is acceptable.  The additional tonnage, not so much.

X-Pulse Lasers- I find the Small and Medium variety to be okay and the Large X-Pulse laser rather depressing due its monster heat build up.  I'd rather take an ER PPC or a SnPPC (trending toward the later) as they are both superior weapons.

VSP- As mentioned earlier, this is a side grade weapon when compared to standard pulse lasers.  I also agree with idea that this is what pulse lasers should have been from the beginning.  Why they are awesome is at short range they are down right frightening on how effective they are.  Medium range there is a bit of a drop off, but a substantial improvement over the medium range bracket of a standard pulse laser.  Due to diminishing returns at range their BV cost is also lower than it could be without the deprecation in damage and to hit numbers.  I consider the trade offs to be worth it at medium range and less.  The Enforcer 6NAIS and  Tenshi A are good examples of how the VSPLs can be effectively used.

Col Toda

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #17 on: 16 September 2019, 06:53:50 »
All of these happened along a timeline . X-PULSE came out of Solaris  VII in the 3050s . It was initially  high maintenance  system.  Software needed to be re installed  and fire control  calibrated after every engagement  . Fine for a gladiator  mech or something  that does not shoot weapons every scenario  but it would be value added to have pulse like an APC I made . When it becomes  advanced it is available  through multiple  inner  sphere manufacturers  while mixed Clan  tech was still hit  or miss on availability  . Variable  pulse lasers for a jumping backstabber  eliminates  at short range the shooter's movement  penalty without  a targeting computer or AES . Reengineered  lasers you are better off taking longer range  Clan Large  Pulse sure you do half  damage but you are shooting  from further away and with a higher bonus . Mixed tech is advanced  by the dark age . No reason outside an in your face urban combat  to use reengineered  lasers period .

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #18 on: 16 September 2019, 16:24:39 »
Reengineered  lasers you are better off taking longer range  Clan Large  Pulse

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AdmiralObvious

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #19 on: 16 September 2019, 17:17:19 »
You forgot Blazer
I mean, the Blazer is okay for what it is. You have double sinks and it's viable for the mass and space it takes. Otherwise, probably a bit of a waste, and maybe a bit of a liability.

Daryk

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #20 on: 16 September 2019, 17:39:25 »
The Blazer Cannon is at its peak between the time DHS are introduced and when Heavy PPCs debut.  It's perfectly fine (ahem, *GREAT*) during the Succession Wars, though.  The thing was invented back in the early 2800s and never went extinct.

sadlerbw

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #21 on: 17 September 2019, 12:22:02 »
I like playing FedSuns vs. Combine Dark Age fights in MegaMek with some regularity, so I do have some appreciation for the ReLasers. I don't need them everywhere, but its nice to have some of them to focus on the hardened armor units. I can ususally deal with FerroLam, Ballistic Reinforced, and Reflective without ReLasers, but they are my preferred counter to Hardened.

Since my beloved Gunsmith carries medium X-Pulses exclusively, I am contractually required to like them...although I don't generally consider them to be better or worse than standard IS pulses, just different. If you have an already cool-running mech and want to slap some pulse lasers on, why not take the extra range? If you have cooling problems, it's usually better to use standard pulses or non-pule lasers. The best thing I can say about X-Pulses is that they don't require remembering any new rules that regular pulse lasers don't have. All the differences are on the record sheet.

VSP's...Meh. If I was building a custom design I'm not sure I would ever choose VSP's, but I've never shied away from using a unit that had them. They aren't bad, just heavy. On mechs, I just need enough armor to survive getting in close and applying consistent, repeated damage. I don't really like them on glass-jaw units because their whole deal is doing consistent damage at close range, so they need to survive as many turns as possible to get their BV's worth out of them. Also, Large VSP's can be pretty nice on larger Aerospace units that have lots of tonnage to throw away like dropships and heavy fighters.

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #22 on: 17 September 2019, 13:16:54 »
REL are better now, and it makes me like the Spider that mounts a Large better.  I was looking at using that before the errata before.

VSP . . . you know, it makes me wonder about a pair of the Mediums on a Wulfen with some DHS, sort of like the Scapha.
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dgorsman

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #23 on: 17 September 2019, 13:46:48 »
Like C3, VSPs are about more than only short range.  Medium range does respectable damage with a -2 bonus, and long range still has a -1 bonus.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #24 on: 17 September 2019, 15:12:55 »
Sure, but the damage is only superior for that short range.
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Greatclub

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #25 on: 17 September 2019, 15:39:08 »
Like C3, VSPs are about more than only short range.  Medium range does respectable damage with a -2 bonus, and long range still has a -1 bonus.

They are effective at long range. Given their weight and heat, they are not efficient at long range.


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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #26 on: 18 September 2019, 23:45:16 »
X-Pulse: Definitely worthwhile if you have enough Heat Sink capacity to use them without cooking yourself alive.

VSP: Chuffing terrible! Way too heavy to ever be worthwhile!

R-E: Too heavy to be worthwhile unless you go up against foes using Hardened. Ballistic-Reinforced, Ferro-Lamellor or Laser-Reflective Armor a lot.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #27 on: 19 September 2019, 02:53:29 »
Have to wonder if you are up to date on RELs . . . or faced a Scapha G.
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Retry

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #28 on: 19 September 2019, 09:53:03 »
Have to wonder if you are up to date on RELs . . . or faced a Scapha G.
Why the Scapha G, specifically?

Colt Ward

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Re: Re-Engineered, VSP, and X-Pulse Lasers - WTF?
« Reply #29 on: 19 September 2019, 10:14:18 »
Sorry, wrong letter- meant the H!  Always messes me up b/c H for the Clans typically means Heavy Laser config.

A 11/17 hovertank with a supercharger, C3 slave, and two turreted Med VSPL and reflec armor . . .

Took it to try out Med VSPL in a BV limited pick up game . . . it dropped off my Asterion squad near the Timber Wolf Bs, and then kept skating around behind them to hit them in the back with the Med VSPL at short range.  IIRC the armor right, a T-Wolf can only take a single hit to the CTR . . . the guy I was harassing with that single tank had a pair of the TW Bs and I was just skating between them.  Went internal on one and I think got the engine on one, but it absolutely distracted him from doing much about my mechs . . . when he finally tagged one it was with a cLPL he was quite happy, I usually bring flying beer cans so he expect it to do some damage.  Nope, only 5 points and so it just nicked the armor which was the only damage he put on the hovertank the whole time while eventually it mission killed one Timber Wolf he had to nurse/protect and my Lament & Quasimodo got to sort of run wild.  The Quasimodo did not get quite as good results, but worked out pretty well too (it did what?).

Sold me on VSPL for backstabbers and brawlers.
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