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Author Topic: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?  (Read 669 times)

Black_Knyght

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Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« on: 17 September 2019, 16:50:27 »
I could have sworn I found a chart/table for Piloting/Gunnery skills ranging from Green to Elite, but for the life of me I can't find it now.

Am I mis-remembering, or is this really a thing and if so where might I find it?

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #1 on: 17 September 2019, 17:07:29 »
Total War, page 273.

If you want the BV modifiers for pilot skills, Tech Manual, page 315.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #2 on: 17 September 2019, 17:13:05 »
Pretty simple . . .

IS Regular is 4/5, Clan Regular is 3/4- vet, elite, and unofficially legendary for better.

Hmm, wonder if we can get pilot cards for the Legendary Boxes from the KS.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #3 on: 18 September 2019, 09:54:39 »
Pretty simple . . .

IS Regular is 4/5, Clan Regular is 3/4- vet, elite, and unofficially legendary for better.

Hmm, wonder if we can get pilot cards for the Legendary Boxes from the KS.

Actually, the OFFICIAL (As far as I can see) skill rating goes (Page 238 of Strategic Operations) with the numbers after being an approx Gun/Pilot skill:

Wet Behind the Ears - 7/8
Really Green - 6/5
Green - 5/6
Regular - 4/5
Veteran - 3/4
Elite - 2/3
Heroic - 1/2
Legendary - 0/1
« Last Edit: 18 September 2019, 09:57:19 by NeonKnight »
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #4 on: 18 September 2019, 10:39:58 »
hm, did not know they actually labeled higher than elite . . . but Clan mechwarriors are 1 step up and Clan vehicle crews are 1 step down- so a Clan regular cluster would have 3/4 mechwarriors, 4/5 Elementals & pilots, and 5/6 vehicle crews.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #5 on: 18 September 2019, 11:09:05 »
hm, did not know they actually labeled higher than elite . . . but Clan mechwarriors are 1 step up and Clan vehicle crews are 1 step down- so a Clan regular cluster would have 3/4 mechwarriors, 4/5 Elementals & pilots, and 5/6 vehicle crews.

Yeah, that table's been replicated in a few places.

ALPHA STRIKE - page 24 (1rst printing only, but still on TABLES page 167 subsequent printings)

ALPHA STRIKE COMPANION - Page 29.

I don;t know if I would call a Regular Skill for IS as being a 4/5 and a regular skill for CLAN as being 3/4 though.

BATTLEMECH MANUAL states on page 9:

Quote
DEFAULT SKILL RATINGS
The average Inner Sphere MechWarrior has a Gunnery Skill of 4 and a Piloting Skill of 5. The average Clan MechWarrior is a superior pilot and marksman, with a Gunnery Skill of 3 and a Piloting Skill of 4. Unless otherwise stated in the scenario being played, all MechWarriors of these respective factions have these skill ratings.

This is further backed up on Page 40 of TW.

So, the Average IS MechWarrior is of Regular Skill (4/5), while the average CLAN MechWarrior is of Veteran Skill (3/4).

Infact, if you look at the Skill Ratings Table from STRAT OP, and the Point Value Modifier, and then Compare to the BV SKILL MODIFIER TABLE in TECH MANUAL you get:

Wet Behind the Ears -Modifier 0.68 = 7/8
Really Green - Modifier 0.77 = 6/5
Green - Modifier 0.86 = 5/6
Regular - Modifier 1.00 = 4/5
Veteran - Modifier 1.38 = 3/4
Elite - Modifier 1.82 = 2/3
Heroic - Modifier 2.24 = 1/2
Legendary - Modifier 2.63 = 0/1
« Last Edit: 18 September 2019, 11:14:33 by NeonKnight »
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Black_Knyght

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #6 on: 18 September 2019, 12:06:13 »
Actually, the OFFICIAL (As far as I can see) skill rating goes (Page 238 of Strategic Operations) with the numbers after being an approx Gun/Pilot skill:

Wet Behind the Ears - 7/8
Really Green - 6/5
Green - 5/6
Regular - 4/5
Veteran - 3/4
Elite - 2/3
Heroic - 1/2
Legendary - 0/1

Thanx, that's exactly what I was looking for

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #7 on: 18 September 2019, 14:13:31 »
I don;t know if I would call a Regular Skill for IS as being a 4/5 and a regular skill for CLAN as being 3/4 though.

BATTLEMECH MANUAL states on page 9:

This is further backed up on Page 40 of TW.

So, the Average IS MechWarrior is of Regular Skill (4/5), while the average CLAN MechWarrior is of Veteran Skill (3/4).

?  I think you are making it too hard.  Clan Mechwarriors are better, so the average/regular Clan Mechwarrior (per your quote) is 3/4- which has been the standard since they existed.  BUT b/c of their training and constant fighting work out to be equivalent to IS mechwarriors who are rated veteran.  The average veteran Clan mechwarrior is 2/3, and a elite is 1/2 . . .

So Clan MW are +1 level, BA & Aero are on the same level (depending on your view of Horses/Bears & Ravens), and vehicles are -1 level (again depending on view of Horses).
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NeonKnight

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #8 on: 18 September 2019, 14:47:02 »
?  I think you are making it too hard.  Clan Mechwarriors are better, so the average/regular Clan Mechwarrior (per your quote) is 3/4- which has been the standard since they existed.  BUT b/c of their training and constant fighting work out to be equivalent to IS mechwarriors who are rated veteran.  The average veteran Clan mechwarrior is 2/3, and a elite is 1/2 . . .

So Clan MW are +1 level, BA & Aero are on the same level (depending on your view of Horses/Bears & Ravens), and vehicles are -1 level (again depending on view of Horses).

I disagree. I believe the Average Clan Warrior is of Veteran Skill, not Regular skill.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #9 on: 18 September 2019, 15:10:17 »
 . . . the average, or regular, Clan mechwarrior is 3/4 . . . they ALSO have veterans who are 2/3.  The average/regular Clan mechwarrior- b/c it does not include Elementals, Aero pilots OR vehicle crew- is the equivalent, as in uses the same rating as, a Inner Sphere veteran Mechwarrior but for the Clans they are considered 'regular.'

You are trying to make it more complicated than it is, its been published that way ever since the Clans came out- nearly 30 years.
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #10 on: 18 September 2019, 15:23:04 »
No, it was changed with TW, because that book actually makes an effort to generalize rules. Hence, average IS mechwarriors are or "Regular" experience level and average Clan mechwarriors are of "Veteran" experience level. "Regular" and "Veteran" are used as in-game denominations and thus loose their common meaning to a certain degree.
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #11 on: 18 September 2019, 15:23:17 »
I'm will to concede if you can point to an actual ruling that Clan REGULAR is 3/4 where IS Regular is 4/5. So far all I have found is the average skill is 3/4 vs 4/5
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #12 on: 18 September 2019, 15:39:56 »
TW p271-273, for randomly determining skills based on forces' experience rating.

Specifically, once you have the experience rating of the force (Regular, Veteran, Elite, etc), you roll for the actual piloting/gunnery skills. Clan mechwarriors get a +2 to the roll, meaning they are always bumped to the next higher roll (the table goes 1-2, 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, etc). 

Historical Note: TW used to only have a +1 to the roll, I'm not going to look up when, but sometimes after version 1.2 based on corrected second printing.
« Last Edit: 18 September 2019, 15:42:13 by nckestrel »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #13 on: 18 September 2019, 16:45:47 »
No, it was changed with TW, because that book actually makes an effort to generalize rules. Hence, average IS mechwarriors are or "Regular" experience level and average Clan mechwarriors are of "Veteran" experience level. "Regular" and "Veteran" are used as in-game denominations and thus loose their common meaning to a certain degree.

Nope, Nckestrel has it . . . what you suggest would actually increase the confusion b/c of all the prior source material- WCSB, JFSB, ICSB, Tukayyid, Twycross, Luthien, ER3052, ER 3062, Falcon vs Wolf, Dragon Roars, whatever scenario book was Op Serpent, FMCC, FMWC, FMU, FM3085, ER3145, FM3145 and more to include the scenarios they are releasing now.

Intuitively the language in the scenarios themselves . . . if a Clan Regular mechwarrior is no different than a IS/Periphery faction Regular mechwarrior, then why would the distinction exist between the two- it would just say 'regular cluster' rather than 'Clan regular cluster' or 'Kuritan regular regiment.'
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abou

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #14 on: 18 September 2019, 17:32:19 »
The http://masterunitlist.info/ has a chart to the bottom right of the page for a unit that automatically includes the BV for a given skill rating. Useful stuff.

EDIT: If that is one of the things you are looking for.
« Last Edit: 18 September 2019, 17:35:55 by abou »

NeonKnight

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #15 on: 18 September 2019, 17:51:04 »
Nope, Nckestrel has it . . . what you suggest would actually increase the confusion b/c of all the prior source material- WCSB, JFSB, ICSB, Tukayyid, Twycross, Luthien, ER3052, ER 3062, Falcon vs Wolf, Dragon Roars, whatever scenario book was Op Serpent, FMCC, FMWC, FMU, FM3085, ER3145, FM3145 and more to include the scenarios they are releasing now.

Intuitively the language in the scenarios themselves . . . if a Clan Regular mechwarrior is no different than a IS/Periphery faction Regular mechwarrior, then why would the distinction exist between the two- it would just say 'regular cluster' rather than 'Clan regular cluster' or 'Kuritan regular regiment.'

well then, according to that chart then, that would mean a CLAN REGULAR MECHWARRIOR can be anywhere from a 4/5 to a 2/3 (Gunnery/Pilot), where as an IS MECHWARRIOR can be anything from a 4/6 to a 3/4. Which further means, with crappy and/or fantastic dice rolling, the REGULAR CLAN could be a 4/5 and the REGULAR IS could be a 3/4 ;)
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #16 on: 18 September 2019, 17:59:25 »
Yes, if selectively picking answers that supported your point, while ignoring the data against your point, meant anything useful.
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #17 on: 18 September 2019, 18:03:22 »
Sure, for randomly rolled pilots but not everyone does that- some folks find it more comfortable/easy to just give the same median skills for the whole formation.  High/lo rolls do happen . . . had Clan MW from elite units get the 5 or 6 result on the roll and be 0/1, sucks for BV balancing a fight . . . same as I have had MW in veteran clusters end up with 4/2- which gets annoying on something short ranged.  But overall the averages work out.

With the advent of SPAs, I am thinking of having my randomly rolled Clan elite pilots cap at 1/2 and instead randomly roll a SPA from a list which would include a point of edge- but that gets a bit more into a RP aspect.  Having more edge or the ability to run through occupied hexes can make them more elite without that pure gunnery buff.
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #18 on: 18 September 2019, 19:37:39 »
My main complaint is that 1g/2p isn’t Super Elite and 0g/1p isn’t Super Duper Elite

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #19 on: 18 September 2019, 19:42:22 »
Could we interest you in OP Elite flavor?
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #21 on: 18 September 2019, 20:03:39 »
Wait a second... Really Green pilots are better than Green ones?  ::)

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #22 on: 18 September 2019, 20:06:23 »
Elite-flavored tastes like Hanse’s cologne
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #23 on: 18 September 2019, 21:11:29 »
Wait a second... Really Green pilots are better than Green ones?  ::)

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plutonick

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #24 on: 20 September 2019, 06:30:32 »
Actually, the OFFICIAL (As far as I can see) skill rating goes (Page 238 of Strategic Operations) with the numbers after being an approx Gun/Pilot skill:

Wet Behind the Ears - 7/8
Really Green - 6/5
Green - 5/6
Regular - 4/5
Veteran - 3/4
Elite - 2/3
Heroic - 1/2
Legendary - 0/1

SO Page 238 has a different table that does not really have the numbers you just posted.

The most recent print of that very table you are looking for is found in Field Manual: Mercenaries, page 137, published... 20 years ago.

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Ursus Maior

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #25 on: 20 September 2019, 08:55:55 »
TW p271-273, for randomly determining skills based on forces' experience rating.
[...]

Historical Note: TW used to only have a +1 to the roll, I'm not going to look up when, but sometimes after version 1.2 based on corrected second printing.
I stand corrected and thank you for said correction! :)
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #26 on: 20 September 2019, 10:27:19 »
I stand corrected and thank you for said correction! :)

My opinion on what it should be matches what you said.  I don't recall an Elite Clan Cluster averaging 2/1 mechwarriors, and Clan Wolf was 16 elite clusters and 1 veteran cluster among their front-line galaxies. 13th Wolf Guards Cluster in More Tales of the Black Widow has individual mechwarriors that average 3/2.  Yet they are an Elite cluster.

But there is certainly direct, current evidence that you should take a force's experience rating (elite, veteran, etc) and Clans will be on average 1 lower piloting and gunnery for the same force experience rating.
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #27 on: 20 September 2019, 11:00:04 »
I've been steering clear of this,, but I will say this thread makes it apparent that there is confusion on what exactly is Regular/veteran/Elite (and by extension Heroic and Legendary). The Skill Charts in a lot of the Rules make no distinction between CLAN vs IS nor stipulating that CLAN regular is actually IS veteran.

This is backed up in part by the ALPHA STRIKE COMMANDER'S EDITION page 29 with the SKILL RATING. There is no CLAN or IS column

SKILL RATING TABLE
Skill Description       Unit Skill Rating

Wet Behind the Ears...........7
Really Green......................6
Green................................5
Regular..............................4
Veteran.............................3
Elite..................................2
Heroic...............................1
Legendary..........................0

I'm not trying to say I'm Right - You're Wrong, nor am I inclined to say You're Right - I'm Wrong, I'm just saying, there IS a discrepancy here between the rules and various books.
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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #28 on: 20 September 2019, 11:20:58 »
There are two different things.

A force has an Experience Rating of Elite, Veteran, Regular or Green.
An individual mechwarrior has a skill(s) rating.

A Clan Mechwarrior, from an Elite Clan Force, will have on average better skills than an IS Mechwarrior, from an Elite IS Force.
I've said nothing about what name that mechwarrior would put on their own skills.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Piloting/Gunnery Skill table?
« Reply #29 on: 20 September 2019, 11:30:37 »
The Skill Charts in a lot of the Rules make no distinction between CLAN vs IS nor stipulating that CLAN regular is actually IS veteran.

This is backed up in part by the ALPHA STRIKE COMMANDER'S EDITION page 29 with the SKILL RATING. There is no CLAN or IS column

 . . . they do not because . . .

TW p271-273, for randomly determining skills based on forces' experience rating.

Specifically, once you have the experience rating of the force (Regular, Veteran, Elite, etc), you roll for the actual piloting/gunnery skills. Clan mechwarriors get a +2 to the roll, meaning they are always bumped to the next higher roll (the table goes 1-2, 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, etc). 

So, WHY have a new chart when you insert a single sentence that takes up less page space that says give Clan mechwarriors a +2 to the roll results?  Additionally, Alpha Strike makes no distinction of Clan weapons having longer ranges (aka, its a different detail level), so I am not sure why you are trying to use a book for a different system to determine TW to determine a TW stat.

No discrepancy exists, its been this way since the Clans were introduced and IMO that +1 with original TW nckestrel cites is someone mixing up +1 level with +2 to roll, both can mean the same thing if put in correctly but it slipped through proofreading to use parts of both phrases.

As for what makes a unit Elite . . . there are some intangibles that we have a hard time translating over to a direct TT setting, and some will only have a impact when you get into a campaign setting.  For instance I have seen references to a study that determined a infantry soldier from a elite information would accomplish 2 or 3 more missions than a regular infantryman due to the selective nature of the elite formation.  But how do you represent that on table top?  You make them shoot better, but that is a really clumsy way IMO to give that advantage- but its also fast when you are just wanting to drop dice & minis on the table.  Like I said for my campaigns, I am thinking of using SPAs for any results that make elite Clan- or even veteran Clan pilots- too good.

IMO Elite units, besides being better gunners & pilots, are going to exhibit-
-SPAs for individual mechwarriors/aeropilots/BA troopers/vehicle crews

-Unit abilities, not sure we have any on the regulars since I do not have the FMs with me but I think Regular rated units might be limited to fighting environment abilities (like Arcturan Guards get arctic environment advantages) or like some of the Bear formations get a bonus to random rolls on unit weights.  But elite units are going to IMO have more and combine some like . . . forcing the initiative, off map movement, jungle environment training.

-morale & forced withdraw benefits

-commander bonus/abilities, like 'When Star Captain Super is on the board, his trinary gets +2 to initiative' or extra edge

-greater access to alternate munitions or Omni-pod options, which is not something generally discussed

-greater call on strategic assets like jumpships/artillery/airstrikes/SpecOps/MASH

-first in line for repairs/replacements

But all that stuff is complicated to put on the table, so we get the simple 'Elite Clan formations are 1/2' to abstractly give those advantages.
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