Author Topic: Streamlining Battletech?  (Read 12503 times)

Black_Knyght

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Streamlining Battletech?
« on: 16 October 2019, 21:04:21 »
Had some time on my hands and started wondering how I'd go about streamlining CBT without paring it down to Alpha Strike bare-bonesness (NOT intending to offend AS fans here!!!).

With that thought in mind I decided to see what others here may have done similarly or think on this idea.

victor_shaw

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #1 on: 16 October 2019, 21:22:12 »
Had some time on my hands and started wondering how I'd go about streamlining CBT without paring it down to Alpha Strike bare-bonesness (NOT intending to offend AS fans here!!!).

With that thought in mind I decided to see what others here may have done similarly or think on this idea.

My main objective would be to "cull the herd" so to speak.
1. The amount of hardware out there, a lot of it doing the same job.
2. The forced "for story sake" division of tech over way to many years to facilitate the innersphere-clan separation.
3. The over abundance of Mech chassis and models. I get it the "name the current poster child" mechs are important, but enough is enough already.

The main issues is weeding out the minutia without hindering CGL ability to make money.
And the mechs are a big sales point for the company, wither in books(TRO), plastic (minis),etc..
And how do the clans survive vs. the innersphere if the tech is the same, crippling the stories tellers ability to make them a viable threat.

dgorsman

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #2 on: 16 October 2019, 21:38:58 »
BK, are you talking ground up rebuild (genecast), or major surgery but keeping the core intact (Manei Domini)?
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #3 on: 16 October 2019, 23:01:58 »
Just make everything Clantech and improve combined arms primarily of the Mech/Armored Infantry variety.  Tanks, Artillery, and Aerospace exist as mooks or will be represented by single use abilities like those in the BMM. 

All Aerospace should be reduced to cards ala Alpha Strike (I know you said not like AS but come on Aerospace almost never comes up) this game is not about them but they serve a role.  I think tanks should get a similar treatment.  They are simpler machines and you don't need a giant record sheet for 5 hit locations and typically (looking at you Behemoth) fewer weapons.  You might be able to fit 4 tanks on a sheet of paper if you did that which would be perfect in my book.  I like the mech and battle armor sheets as they are though they really do make for some good synergies especially once everything is Omnis (which it should be I mean if you are going to out an XXL or XL in a Mech its nothing to make it omni).

I think they need to get past the Clan/IS divide, the Clans have to ally with (or conquer) a Spheroid state to continue to be a threat otherwise they should have been wiped out. Straight up kill the Home Clans, the Sharks come back after a while and say the whole cluster is dead and abandoned (gamma ray burst, plague, whatever...).  LAMs, Quadvees, superheavies, and other strange units (Warships) are dead, dead, dead.  They get no more support. 

Dropships should go back to a dozen different classes (4 Freighters/Support, 3 Tactical Transport, 5 Assault/PWS/Carrier) of which some can be reconfigured ala the Aurora.

Ursus Maior

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #4 on: 17 October 2019, 05:06:07 »
Also: Make it clear what the pros and cons of OmniMechs are. If Omni construction has no inherent flaws over standard BattleMechs (or ASF or vees), than the standard model will get less love and we should only see Omnis in tier one front line forces.

But if for example omni-pods take more space, because you have to design them in a way that makes them, well, accept everything (lat. omnia), than they should be bulkier. In my eyes, this was a problem with OmniMechs from the start: Omni technology was more expensive, but so all-versatile that it became ludicrous not to build Omni units. The logic of construction would dictate, however, that a specialized unit will always more efficient than a modular built multi-purpose variant. I would vote to have one slot per location open for omni modules being recquired for this technology. And yes, this would mean that no omni pods could go into an OmniMech head, but fixed equipment could (and should) go there.
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Ogra_Chief

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #5 on: 17 October 2019, 06:47:14 »
Allow Alpha Strike time to grow into its' own thing. Its' purpose is to streamline play. If meat needs to be added, make the suggestion for; as that is the only way the evolution will happn.

As for CBT, I've come full circle, initially I believed CBT had too much bloat, tech and equipment, but now it's all cake... let them eat cake. Why take away? Though I do support a streamlining and merging of the tech base for coherent play.

Note: Evolution of the current techs, not regression. We have done the Mad Max/Dark Whatever, let's be about are new Phaser Cannons and Gravatonic Lifters, Bolo/Ogre AI Super-Heavy Kill Bots.

To streamline play is less a game mechanic and more an evolution of the game, (smart device) app support, but some, e.g. cluster hits, could use a quick pass.

Getting back to tech, obsoleting equipment is reasonable, but I would expect new equipment and tech to take their place... make sense? No. Me neither, but what can I say, I'm a tech and equipment junkie at this point. And, when not provided. I invent my own or steal others', can't help myself. I love not knowing every mech design or weapon system out there, even though I consider myself well versed in BT.

You say streamline. I say pass more 'Cake', please.  >:D
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Tangoforone

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #6 on: 17 October 2019, 08:03:52 »
If you are talking about streamlining the actual tabletop game so that you can have more enjoyment without all the number crunching, my thoughts are as follows:

-Reduce the external and internal armor on all units, based on the armor it would normally have.  So the CT on an assault mech may have 5 points, the head would have 1, an arm might have 2, etc.
-Class each weapon into a light, medium, heavy, or assault weapon.  Each class deals a certain amount of damage, with the only difference being ranges and heat (small laser might do 1 point of damage, with a maximum range of 3 inches, while a large laser might do 3 points of damage with a range of 9 inches)
-Cluster munitions are the same, but each point of damage gets rolled separately for location (an LB-X 20 or LRM-20 might do 4 points of damage, but each point gets rolled in a separate location).
-Internal structure can remain the same, however I would reduce the arms and legs to just arm actuactors and leg actuators, and just make the crit box bigger.  If you damage any portion of that box you get a +1 modifier when performing actions with that limb. Same goes for the head, life support and cockpit go together and sensors remain separate.  Engines and gyros can remain the same.  Equipment remains the same.
-Heat concept can remain the same, but would likely need some modifications to better represent the new damage and ranges that the weapons are categorized as.

These changes, in my mind, would keep the fun of Battletech that simulates that the mech, or any other unit, has many parts and locations that can be damaged, but simplifies the damage and reduces the survivability of everything. 

If you are talking about simplifying the universe?  F- that.  The whole point of different mechs, different equipment, etc. is to represent a breathing universe.  The reason certain units exist is because of alliances, or the lack there of, supply lines, etc.  I don't want that taken away.  If everyone only piloted Marauders and Panthers and Timber Wolfs that would be really boring.  "What did you bring to play today?"  "Well, since there are only 20 units to choose from, and 4 of them are clearly the best bang for BV, those are the ones I brought."  "Oh, same here."  Boring.

massey

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #7 on: 17 October 2019, 10:25:54 »
Fewer rolls.  That's the easiest way to streamline things.  Reduce the amount of dice rolling and the number of charts.  For instance, an LB-X could just do one location at half damage, but give you a +2 on the possible crit chart.  No, it's not the array of little one point hits, but it still thematically serves the same purpose, and it doesn't take nearly as long to resolve.

But anything too specific that we talk about here will probably be met with demands that this go in the Fan Designs forum.

Ursus Maior

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #8 on: 17 October 2019, 14:17:46 »
Fewer rolls.  That's the easiest way to streamline things.  Reduce the amount of dice rolling and the number of charts.  For instance, an LB-X could just do one location at half damage, but give you a +2 on the possible crit chart.  No, it's not the array of little one point hits, but it still thematically serves the same purpose, and it doesn't take nearly as long to resolve.

But anything too specific that we talk about here will probably be met with demands that this go in the Fan Designs forum.
Maybe add a +/-1 on the Location Chart, simulating the greater chance of hitting vulnerable locations (i. e. the head or open locations).
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Ursus Maior

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #9 on: 17 October 2019, 14:19:16 »
If you are talking about streamlining the actual tabletop game so that you can have more enjoyment without all the number crunching, my thoughts are as follows:

-Reduce the external and internal armor on all units, based on the armor it would normally have.  So the CT on an assault mech may have 5 points, the head would have 1, an arm might have 2, etc.

[...]

-Cluster munitions are the same, but each point of damage gets rolled separately for location (an LB-X 20 or LRM-20 might do 4 points of damage, but each point gets rolled in a separate location).

[...]

-Heat concept can remain the same, but would likely need some modifications to better represent the new damage and ranges that the weapons are categorized as.
Sounds suspiciously like MechWarrior: Destiny system for combat. I like that!
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Talen5000

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #10 on: 17 October 2019, 21:15:53 »
There are several methods and tricks.

For example....don't roll on the Hit Location chart for every LBX Cluster hit.
Instead roll damage, roll for location once and then apply a third of the damage, then move up and down the chart by 1 location, applying a third to each, rounding down.
So - if you roll a hit location of 4, you also hit locations 3 and 5. If you get a 1 or a 13, then the damage is lost.

Another is to apply half damage from all weapons, but skip to To-Hot roll. Instead, all shots automatically hit Location 7. Basically, the pilot aims for centre of mass.

Another is to limit the fire control so that mechs can fire only one weapon a turn without incurring targetting penalties.  Speeds up resolution and ensures no player takes ages with his turn.

Criticals occur on a double roll but recieve a -1 On the Critical Hit result. So, they are more common but hurt less.

Of course, a simpler way to speed things up is to simply increase the piloting and gunnery skills, but hat doens't help with areas such as cluster hits.

That's for Mechs and vehicles.

For infantry....non missile infantry can't damage Mechs or combat vehicles and missile infantry get 1 launcher and 4 rounds per squad.
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Ursus Maior

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #11 on: 18 October 2019, 03:20:06 »
There are several methods and tricks.

For example....don't roll on the Hit Location chart for every LBX Cluster hit.
Instead roll damage, roll for location once and then apply a third of the damage, then move up and down the chart by 1 location, applying a third to each, rounding down.
So - if you roll a hit location of 4, you also hit locations 3 and 5. If you get a 1 or a 13, then the damage is lost.
I like the first part, very much, but not the part about loosing damage. That's what the Cluster Hit roll is for. I would count 1 or 13 as 2 or 12 respectively.
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Tangoforone

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #12 on: 18 October 2019, 08:55:09 »
I haven't read MechWarrior:  Destiny, so I wouldn't know about their combat system.  While I love RPGs (I was a DM for both Pathfinder and DND 5E), I don't generally have anyone to play with so I try not to waste time reading rulebooks that I won't use.  It makes me pretty sad, but such is life sometimes.  Maybe one day I will find a group.

Apocal

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #13 on: 18 October 2019, 21:04:22 »
Xotl had a fan rule for hurrying up cluster rolls. I can't link it from my phone though, but it should be in his signature or somewhere else visible.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #14 on: 18 October 2019, 21:52:01 »
I like the first part, very much, but not the part about loosing damage. That's what the Cluster Hit roll is for. I would count 1 or 13 as 2 or 12 respectively.

I actually like the even distribution of LBX Clusters to adjacent areas. Constant LB5X averages to 3, 10X is 6, 20X with 12 dealing 1, 2, or 4 damage to adjacent locations and really making 2s and 12s even more awesome if they move to the next which they should.  Might have to play test a match with those rules

Apocal

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #15 on: 19 October 2019, 12:33:59 »
Here is the Xotl's rapid cluster allocation house-rule:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62539.0

Talen5000

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #16 on: 20 October 2019, 06:38:12 »
I like the first part, very much, but not the part about loosing damage. That's what the Cluster Hit roll is for. I would count 1 or 13 as 2 or 12 respectively.

Which then doubles the damage to head or requires additional rules to account for or ignore critical hits. If you really do object to the idea of losing extra damage, then the best solution in this case is to simply not roll on the cluster hits table and just divide the damage accordingly, or apply modifier to the damage roll.

For example...an LB 5X could do 2/1 damage; 2 points to the main hit location, and 1 to each location next to it on the Hit Table. 4 average damage instead of 3 to account for any "lost"
An LB20X could do 7/3/1 damage;5 damage to the main location, 3 to the locations adjacent on the Hit Location Chart, and 1 to the Hit locations next to those.  An average of 13 damage spread between 5 hit locations instead of an average of 12.

So, an LB weapons chart woud be akin to:

LB2X      1
LB5X      2/1
LB10X    4/2
LB20X    7/3/1

In this system, you'd need one roll to hit, one to determine initial hit lcoation and that is it. Two rolls instead of up to twenty two.
Downside is that it does lower the crit seeking capability,  and some of the weapon flavour.
« Last Edit: 20 October 2019, 06:47:14 by Talen5000 »
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Cannonshop

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #17 on: 22 October 2019, 12:42:06 »
Had some time on my hands and started wondering how I'd go about streamlining CBT without paring it down to Alpha Strike bare-bonesness (NOT intending to offend AS fans here!!!).

With that thought in mind I decided to see what others here may have done similarly or think on this idea.

define what you mean by streamlining?  are you looking for fewer operations, fewer rules exceptions, fewer special rules, smaller lists of gear, narrower conditions? how do you define it? 

One of the ways we used to make bigger battles take less time, in BMR play, was to run lots of conventionals-because the pre-total warfare situation with vees meant that things got very decisive, very quickly.  You could run full battalion on battalion level engagements in about four hours out of the base book.

Certain aspects of the game carried a lot of 'dead weight' that could be streamlined at the time, for example Artillery.  instead of rolling for scatter range as well as direction, simply applying the difference between 'miss' and 'hit' for distance, and rolling direction-saved a TON of time.  (You need 11, you roll 8, difference is 4, direction is rolled on 1D6, comes up with which way the missed shot fell.  simple, mostly can be done in your head, bonus is it makes good gunners a good idea.)

some aspects can't be simplified that easily, however.  Cluster hits are kind of the whole point of some weapons and tactics end up being built around them-mechanics to the rescue here, get one of those little 'tackle boxes' made out of clear plastic with the locking door-lids, load up dice in each compartment.  shake box, then you've got your location rolls right there at once. (For larger outputs, have a couple of these.)

in asymmetrical engagements (that is, disparate numbers of units) shifting to a front-loaded arrangement reduces decision times on initiative sinking, and makes won initiative worth something, without having to muck with Force Size Multipliers before the game.  (this also reflects the tendency of larger forces to have C3 problems.  small units tend to have better, tighter communication, as demonstrated by british commando units or Otto Skorzeny in WW2.)

Increase lethal side effects for non 'mech units.  The old BMR vehicle hit locations were a prime example of this.  Vees in pre-TW were still very effective units, some players even preferred them because they made larger matches more decisive-you either won quickly, or you lost quickly, but the match would be over before the store closed.

Removing exceptions (Ferro-lam, hardened armor and similar things) also pares down the time you have to spend per firing cycle.  Going with straight hit locations instead of the Floating Crit (Delay) rule-more lethal engagements means faster turnaround times between rounds and turns.  Removing 'damage reduction' special rules (VTOL rotor is a prime example of this) also speeds things up.

don't use "Options" that slow things down, like 'glancing blow' (instead, it hits, or it doesn't. if it doesn't hit, you don't need a location roll for what it didn't hit.)

Timers.  set up an egg-timer as each player takes their turn (after initiative) firstly, any movement not done during the egg-timer, isn't done.  reset it for firing declaration-each fire not declared on time, is not fired.  Mistakes are on the player, he or she just didn't move or fire that unit that turn.  if it takes you more than three minutes to move four units, you're overthinking, and that wastes everyone else's time.

have a plan every round/turn, and a contingency thought up in case you lose initiative.  this can push the game to a faster cadence even if you don't use timers or tool hacks like the tacklebox.  funny story, I had shit luck on initiative rolls but still managed to control what the other guy did, by being decisive instead of overthinking.

Play with a deadline.  "The store's closing at x time!" or "I gotta be somewhere at eight."


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Apocal

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #18 on: 23 October 2019, 01:31:29 »
define what you mean by streamlining?  are you looking for fewer operations, fewer rules exceptions, fewer special rules, smaller lists of gear, narrower conditions? how do you define it?
...
Play with a deadline.  "The store's closing at x time!" or "I gotta be somewhere at eight."

My (infrequent) group just goes 3039 (usually), mechs-only and 2/3 pilots baseline for speed play. We might setup a lot on the table, but it starts dying early and often. Deadlines work well though; nothing motivates people to hurry up get their movement done than knowing the game's going to end in forty-five minutes, at which point it won't matter how brilliant their positioning was last round.

Crimson Dawn

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #19 on: 15 December 2019, 14:34:55 »
I am not a fan of anything that messes with the damage values like ferro lam armor.  Hardened is not as bad since at least 1/2 is not as annoying to use but I would still rather not have that.  I would rather flip it so that these armors gave more armor points per ton of the same amount and if you want you can give things like those specialty laser deal extra damage to it.  To me adding damage and putting slightly more work in mech creation is worth the less work during play.

I am also not a fan of stealth armor what with the variable ranges in BT.  For instance your mech has an ER large, ER medium, and ER small in an arm and you are firing at a target with stealth armor 5 hexes away.  Your arm weapons all fire and the large laser is at close range so no penalty, the medium is at medium range so it takes a +1, and and the small is at long range so it takes a +2 (despite being from the same arm and being similar weapons which of course by the rules does not matter but in terms of how I see verisimilitude it seems a bit silly).  It is just annoying and kind of a pain whereas in alpha strike it does nto annoy me as much because there all of yoru weapons would be affected evenly.

Also not a fan of C3 networks and ECM involved and how every time they come up they drag down the game especially when you have variable weapons like VSPLs.

Tangoforone

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #20 on: 16 December 2019, 14:30:59 »
TBH, I think it is time for Battletech Total Warfare V2.  All of the equipment that we can really consider is out (VTOLs, battle armor, tanks, etc.) so a total rewrite of Total Warfare is in order, with the idea of simplifying the game while still keeping with the spirit of Battletech, something that Alpha Strike failed to do in my opinion.  I don't think each mech should get custom rules, because then you just turn into Games Workshop where some units get updated to the new version and most don't.  But rewriting the entire rulebook to a new version means Catalyst could balance and simplify everything.  It is where the market is moving anyways.  Simplified rules for more accessibility to all sizes of engagements.

And this shouldn't be simplified mech combat for an RPG.  I mean a complete rewrite of all the rules.  This should be akin to Paizo creating Pathfinder 2.  The spirit of Pathfinder was kept alive, but the rules were changed and simplified.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #21 on: 17 December 2019, 21:29:29 »
+1 to above.  I'd be willing to contribute to that project

Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #22 on: 18 December 2019, 02:05:48 »
The question is: what is the essence of CBT combat. If it that positioning to get the exact range for your LRM while the enemy's PPCs need a worser roll?
Is it the different hitboxes, the cluster hits, the heat, the movement...

I think I could totally live with 3-4 range bands with alternating damage.
Another thing might be that base attack and base defense rolls are chassis specific, even when the locust moves 3 hex it might run not straight and the player don't have to think about strange movement paths to get there.
Combat Speed on Locust is +2 on an Atlas +0.
Those tiny changes would not alter the game irreparably and still would highly increase play-speed

Crimson Dawn

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #23 on: 18 December 2019, 04:34:35 »
I admit that I really like in alpha strike how movement mods work as it makes it much easier and fun to play as lighter mechs and removes some of the hassle of planning movement out.  However it does change the dynamics of the game a bit I admit in that it makes faster mechs better but honestly that would be nice in many ways.

I also like the standardized range bands in many regards but I could see that as something many people could like even with the annoyances it can create having every weapon with unique range bands.

Tangoforone

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #24 on: 18 December 2019, 09:32:37 »
The question is: what is the essence of CBT combat. If it that positioning to get the exact range for your LRM while the enemy's PPCs need a worser roll?
Is it the different hitboxes, the cluster hits, the heat, the movement...

This is a really good question.  To expand on this question, what kind of rules have kept CBT players around for 35 years? 

I think the biggest thing that has kept players around is that an IS medium laser has the same stats across every platform it is used on.  If this was another big company, a medium laser on an Atlas would do different damage or have different stats than a medium laser on a Locust.  The fact that a medium laser deals 5 damage and produces 3 heat is not what has kept players around.  Where Alpha Strike failed in my opinion was that it removed hit boxes, it simplified damage dealt and taken too much, and it simplified heat too much. 

I don't know what the answer is beyond that a second edition of Total Warfare should maintain hit boxes, maintain a heat curve, and maintain separation of weapons (i.e. not combining all the weapons on a mech and giving it a flat damage at various ranges). 

Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #25 on: 18 December 2019, 10:26:45 »
This is a really good question.  To expand on this question, what kind of rules have kept CBT players around for 35 years? 

I think the biggest thing that has kept players around is that an IS medium laser has the same stats across every platform it is used on.  If this was another big company, a medium laser on an Atlas would do different damage or have different stats than a medium laser on a Locust.  The fact that a medium laser deals 5 damage and produces 3 heat is not what has kept players around.  Where Alpha Strike failed in my opinion was that it removed hit boxes, it simplified damage dealt and taken too much, and it simplified heat too much. 

I don't know what the answer is beyond that a second edition of Total Warfare should maintain hit boxes, maintain a heat curve, and maintain separation of weapons (i.e. not combining all the weapons on a mech and giving it a flat damage at various ranges). 


Well just my personal opinion:
I would just use 4-5 universal range bands (PB, short, medium, long, extreme) - damage is altered so a medium laser might poke into the medium range brackt but only with 30% damage and so on.
As for hit locations, I would keep them for criticals - for armor based on angle I would use a single value - if you overcome armor with a shot you deal critical damage. (maybe it might be a good idea to reduce the damage done by ammunition explosions) - armor deteriorates over time.
Cluster and their increased critical hit chance can so altered without need to roll several times on the cluster table and hope for a lucks shot finding a gap.
heat should be more important again, even with freezers - get 20 for free without spending tonnage is an absurd mechanic.

Talen5000

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #26 on: 18 December 2019, 13:30:05 »
TBH, I think it is time for Battletech Total Warfare V2.  All of the equipment that we can really consider is out (VTOLs, battle armor, tanks, etc.) so a total rewrite of Total Warfare is in order, with the idea of simplifying the game while still keeping with the spirit of Battletech, something that Alpha Strike failed to do in my opinion.  I don't think each mech should get custom rules, because then you just turn into Games Workshop where some units get updated to the new version and most don't.  But rewriting the entire rulebook to a new version means Catalyst could balance and simplify everything.  It is where the market is moving anyways.  Simplified rules for more accessibility to all sizes of engagements.

And this shouldn't be simplified mech combat for an RPG.  I mean a complete rewrite of all the rules.  This should be akin to Paizo creating Pathfinder 2.  The spirit of Pathfinder was kept alive, but the rules were changed and simplified.

It sounds good...

But how much would you change?

If you are going to keep the existing TROs and Record Sheets for example then you are stuck with those stats.

Some changes might be simple to integrate....e.g. you could separate the mount location and fire arc...but you'd still have the IS/AP system we have today.
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Tangoforone

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #27 on: 19 December 2019, 09:54:06 »
Unfortunately new TRO's and Record Sheets would be needed.  Alpha Strike did it though, so there is no reason that Total Warfare 2 couldn't, you would just need to release record sheets to match the new version.  Also, I think the 'official' record sheets released by Catalyst should have been updated.  The SSW sheets are great as they add the small tables and things that make quality of life during play easier.  Personally my thoughts on big changes are below:

Internal structure components:  actuators get grouped together into one big block.  So if you have all three arm actuators, your arm actuator takes up three critical slots.  As each slot takes damage it applies a +1 to whatever is being attempted with the arm, whether it is a weapons attack or bracing yourself.

Armor and internal structure points get reduced. 

Weapons get grouped into size categories, and their damage values get simplified; I think statistically they should do a bit more damage.  More damage means quicker fights. 

A faster initiative system and weapons targeting declaration method is implemented.  This may not be for every group, but my group heavily plays in the mindset 'if it isn't in the rules we aren't using it' and they do not want to buckle.  So if an initiative system (like a deck of cards that you draw from to declare who is moving a unit) is implemented in the rules, that would help speed of the movement system so we don't spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how many units each player needs to move at a time.  Just draw a card; if it is your color, you move a unit.

Same with target declaration; if a system is put in the rules that uses small chips that players put on their targets then we don't have to deal with writing down a million things (again, your group might be open to using these types of things, but there are plenty of players who play by the rules). 

I think dice rolling for attacking could be simplified.  Still a 2d6 system, but you have a gunnery dice and individual weapons dice.  Rules for cluster weapons could be simplified so 40 dice aren't being rolled.  The most damage is applied to one location, then it spreads to surrounding components.

In the end, I'm not a game developer so I don't really have a bunch of answers.  It's the whole "consumers didn't know they wanted chunky pasta sauce until it hit shelves' situation.  I think there is room for improvements, but an errata of the game isn't going to fix it.  A completely new version could.  Looking at Pathfinder; it was getting convoluted and congested.  There was too much going on and the rules were old.  Paizo redesigned the entire system to simplify it.  Sure some people got upset, but Pathfinder 1 still exists. 

Talen5000

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #28 on: 21 December 2019, 04:16:53 »
Unfortunately new TRO's and Record Sheets would be needed.

So basically, pull a GW and ask people to rebuild?

I don't think that is feasible.

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Alpha Strike did it though, so there is no reason that Total Warfare 2 couldn't

Alpha Strike is a different game.

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Internal structure components:  actuators get grouped together into one big block.  So if you have all three arm actuators, your arm actuator takes up three critical slots.  As each slot takes damage it applies a +1 to whatever is being attempted with the arm, whether it is a weapons attack or bracing yourself.

Neutral on this.

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Armor and internal structure points get reduced. 

And this. But this is really just reducing the defensive capability turning Mechs into glass cannons unless you also reduce  weapons damage. At which point there is no reasosn to do so.

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Weapons get grouped into size categories, and their damage values get simplified; I think statistically they should do a bit more damage.  More damage means quicker fights. 

As with the Armour suggestion, this can also be achieved by upping the skill of your pilot.

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A faster initiative system and weapons targeting declaration method is implemented.  This may not be for every group, but my group heavily plays in the mindset 'if it isn't in the rules we aren't using it' and they do not want to buckle.  So if an initiative system (like a deck of cards that you draw from to declare who is moving a unit) is implemented in the rules, that would help speed of the movement system so we don't spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how many units each player needs to move at a time.  Just draw a card; if it is your color, you move a unit.

Same with target declaration; if a system is put in the rules that uses small chips that players put on their targets then we don't have to deal with writing down a million things (again, your group might be open to using these types of things, but there are plenty of players who play by the rules). 

I don't think either of these two areas seriously bog down the game. The real slowdown...IME...outside combat is actually moving where players study the battlefield and then takes ages to make the optimum move. Solved through use of a time limit. Rolling 2D6 for initiative isn't overly time consuming.

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I think dice rolling for attacking could be simplified.  Still a 2d6 system, but you have a gunnery dice and individual weapons dice.  Rules for cluster weapons could be simplified so 40 dice aren't being rolled.  The most damage is applied to one location, then it spreads to surrounding components.

For clusters, we roll to Hit, we roll for damage, and apply one half of that to one hit location. Then the Hit location is modified by applying a +1 and a -1, and applying half the resulting to each location. If the new location results in a 1 or 13, that cluster misses. It does speed up the game.

Another is to assume Mechwarriors are trained to shoot for the centre of mass and state all shots do one third their listed damage but automatically hit the "7" location. So, you hit more often but do less damage. You lose the crit chance of a "2" though and some of the games feel.


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I think there is room for improvements

There is room for improvement, but the question is what do you improve and why. Rolling 20D6 for a LB blast can get tedious, but it can also prove immensely satisfying especially if you get lucky. Which do you prioritise?

CGL could also rejig the game...what IF instead of modifying the weapons and weapons rules, they implemented a new rule? You can only fire one weapon or weapon group per firing phase? That too would speed up and could simplify the game but it would also have other ramifications which players may or may not like. Simple changes can have big effects.

« Last Edit: 23 December 2019, 02:49:56 by Talen5000 »
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Streamlining Battletech?
« Reply #29 on: 22 December 2019, 19:22:12 »
I think breaking all the special cases would thin the rulebook as well.  Keep it simple, moving through water and structures get special rules.  Forests are indestructible unless they are on fire.  Weather and planetary conditions rarely come into play due to their annoying nature and could be unified with ease

 

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