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Author Topic: Need help fighting tanks!!!  (Read 11621 times)

BasicRH

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Need help fighting tanks!!!
« on: 17 October 2019, 16:11:37 »
So I recently started college and have taught a few guys here the total warfare rules for BT. Thankfully, two of the three guys I play with decided to mainly play Mechs, which is obviously really fun. We only have one problem. There's one guy who has taken it upon himself to only play custom tanks. (Lots of MMLs and armor, and most of them move at 4/6... that's what I get for teaching him to to use MegaMek lab.) Now, our games have become struggles of running one or two medium mechs against at least two or three medium tanks that are just showering us with missiles or the occasional PPC. And we loose. Not all the time, but enough. I'm new to this game and certainly not a stranger to strategy, but sometimes superior numbers and armor points just win in a war of attrition. Not to mention, greater effects of critical hits on our mechs make them seem fragile... I know better than to get mad at a few plastic tanks, and loosing a game here and there is nothing new for me, but my new recruits are starting to get tired of it and may move to tanks as well! I NEED HELP ENDING THIS REIN OF TERROR!
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #1 on: 17 October 2019, 16:15:41 »
Approach from the side, and use cluster weapons - LB-X autocannons, LRMs and so on.  Go hunting for motive crits to immobilise them, and critical hit chances to disable them quickly (every hit location roll of a 2, 8 or 12 generates a crit chance on the side)
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Syzyx

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #2 on: 17 October 2019, 16:17:11 »
Tanks have a lot of drawbacks, and a lot of advantages. Terrain restrictions are the one saving grace 'mechs have over armour anymore so try taking advantage of blocking woods/rivers/hills to limit his movement.

Also, try playing objective based games. Need to steal the widget in a raid? A 'mech can pick up the one ton doohickey with hands. A tank needs an infantry squad and will need to be still in that hex for about six turns to get it loaded. Not a great job for tanks.

If those aren't working, look at loading inferno ammo in your SRM launchers. Tanks pop under enough inferno hits.
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GreekFire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #3 on: 17 October 2019, 16:43:29 »
Approach from the side, and use cluster weapons - LB-X autocannons, LRMs and so on.  Go hunting for motive crits to immobilise them, and critical hit chances to disable them quickly (every hit location roll of a 2, 8 or 12 generates a crit chance on the side)

To expand on this, once a vehicle is immobilized, you can aim at a location and quickly wear down its armor and/or get the good crits, making its general toughness largely irrelevant.

Quote
Tanks pop under enough inferno hits.

And to expand on this, you can also use Inferno Arrow IV missiles as a quick and easy way to immobilize and ruin whole formations of tanks as they're an area-of-effect weapon.

Also, consider using Plasma Rifles (absolute murder, especially once the target is immobilized) and indirect LRM fire along with spotters (which the tanks should have trouble engaging, considering their difficulty at crossing difficult terrain compared to 'Mechs).

Quote
Not to mention, greater effects of critical hits on our mechs make them seem fragile
This I have trouble understanding. Tanks are SUPER vulnerable to crits, much more so than 'Mechs.
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dgorsman

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #4 on: 17 October 2019, 17:06:35 »
Tighten up rules for play at your table e.g. make it a custom Mech only night with limits on weight/number/BV/etc.  Next time, make it a combined arms night with everyone fielding the same numbers of each type of unit.  Night after that, make it a random grinder (print out a stack of random stock Mech designs pilot balanced for a BV of ~ 2500 or so; every time a Mech drops the player random draws a replacement).  Next time, have a game of TAG.

In general, let players have fun with a challenge other than min/max better than the others.
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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #5 on: 17 October 2019, 17:26:35 »
Not to mention, greater effects of critical hits on our mechs make them seem fragile...
This I have trouble understanding. Tanks are SUPER vulnerable to crits, much more so than 'Mechs.

Put simply, we've just been having very lucky crit hits that blow a leg off or hit a gyro or something early game, which can be frustrating to my newbies. But I always reiterate to the new guys: It really is just a lucky hit, not something that happens really often. Tank guy is just good at rollin 8's when he needs to lol. Also, since there's usually more tanks then mechs, flanking becomes an issue as well if my new guys aren't careful. But I think they are learning there's a little more strategy to battletech than standing still and shooting. ;)
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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #6 on: 17 October 2019, 17:34:26 »
Tighten up rules for play at your table e.g. make it a custom Mech only night with limits on weight/number/BV/etc.  Next time, make it a combined arms night with everyone fielding the same numbers of each type of unit.  Night after that, make it a random grinder (print out a stack of random stock Mech designs pilot balanced for a BV of ~ 2500 or so; every time a Mech drops the player random draws a replacement).  Next time, have a game of TAG.

Love these ideas by the way, I think a night where we limit the customs could really help... getting out of the old "free for all" missions is really something I should do more often now that people are getting more comfortable with the ruleset.  :facepalm:
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #7 on: 17 October 2019, 17:36:47 »
Sounds like you should talk to your tank guy about playing all mechs until everyone has some experience with the rules. But then lucky hits happen all to often in mech-on-mech fights as well... ::)

Part of your problem might be pure accident, thought. I figure you're balancing by BV, and your friend is using lots of MMLs (I guess lots of MML3s, at that). MML3s are way undervalued in BV, arguably the most broken weapon in the system until you get into some experimental tech. It's about half the BV it "should" be, so tanks loaded down with MML3s will be a lot more powerful than their BV says.

I suggest simply limiting things to 3060 tech (i.e. no MMLs) for a starter, that should make things saner.

BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #8 on: 17 October 2019, 17:53:45 »
MML3s are way undervalued in BV, arguably the most broken weapon in the system until you get into some experimental tech. It's about half the BV it "should" be, so tanks loaded down with MML3s will be a lot more powerful than their BV says.
I suggest simply limiting things to 3060 tech (i.e. no MMLs) for a starter, that should make things saner.

This I did not know... not only the undervalued BV stuff, but also the info about MMLs being from the Jihad era, apparently. We've been playing with 3060 tech mainly to avoid Jihad stuff because it certainly does make things saner. Looks like I'm still not 100% out of the newbie zone myself... :P Well, time to break the news to tank guy! 
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #9 on: 17 October 2019, 18:40:53 »
  Tanks have far more drawbacks than advantages and your players (probably you too) haven't enough experience to know how to exploit the many weaknesses of vehicles.
 The main advantage of a vehicle is less locations, which means plenty of armor divided over fewer locations.
 
  The Disadvantages are many. Terrain limitations, especially water; Can't jump over obstacles and can be stopped by obstacles that mechs could step over. Prone to flame weapons, such as Inferno SRMs, Incendiary LRMs and Flamers; May receive critical damage without removing armor, while side hits increase the chance of crippling damage.

  Terrain can be a huge factor. Cities can be death traps for vehicles when they have to face jumpers capable of fighting on rooftops. Forests can also kill vehicles, especially when you set fires and force them to move.

  4/6 is slow for a tank, which means he maxes the armor and optimizes weapons. I'd forget about Med vs Med and go for fast lights, capable of keeping up speed and avoiding getting hit, while using infernos or even Thunder munitions to cripple them.
  Fighting fire with fire is not a bad tactic, either: Play double blind games, where the mech players also have dug-in artillery or infantry.

  Do your mech players use custom, optimized mechs? Have them play around with designs using the TC/LPL combination on fast, jumping mechs and see how well they do.   

  Tanks are moving bunkers but under the right conditions, they can be reduced to bunkers and bunkers are just targets. Try swamps or rubble -They may slow mechs but can trap vehicles.
« Last Edit: 17 October 2019, 18:43:33 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #10 on: 17 October 2019, 18:59:29 »
Another solution for MML abuse is rolling map boards and AC/2s (preferably LB-2Xs).  As long as the 'mechs are faster, the tanks will eventually die.

AdmiralObvious

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #11 on: 17 October 2019, 23:04:18 »
If you're gonna balance by BV, using just the Total Warfare ruleset, you can pretty much total a vehicle, especially a slow one with Mechanized Infantry. You can pretty significantly ruin the day of pretty much every tank with even a few rifle shots.

Dave Talley

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #12 on: 18 October 2019, 00:08:52 »
or simply fight fire with fire
mostly open board, lots of water

go with all hovers, canon models, nothing slower than 8/12

anything with lrms mines the land with thunder mines,
or if feeling evil, use inferno mines
fast hovers can zip around and shoot him from behind
if needed, keep a company of savanah masters offboard

once you have driven circles around him and generally annoyed him
explain this is what playing your all custon crap is like, and you did it stock
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #13 on: 18 October 2019, 01:44:09 »
First of all, I'd suggest not allowing custom units in the game for the time being.  Second of all, check what he's running- sounds suspiciously like he might also have some experimental tech and or era-inappropriate equipment (beyond the MMLs) on those tanks if they're overpowering same-tonnage mechs.

Second of all, LB-X ACs and SRMs (Infernos are good but not actually required) eat tanks.

Third of all, Battle Armor.  Tanks are horribly vulnerable to swarm attacks.  And they have no defenses against enemies who are in the same hex as they are.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #14 on: 18 October 2019, 05:19:17 »
Ferro-lamellor or ballistic reinforced armor.  Or Reactive armor too I guess.

If he's so heavy into missile weapons, these armors will drop his damage potential significantly.  Won't help with Lucky hits so much however.


Would like more info.  What exactly are on these tanks?  What BV limits are in place?  How skilled are the pilots? 

A 3060 tech limit is in place?  And Megameklab is being used to create custom units?  Its possible to limit the tech fairly easily then. Just have to change it from its 3145 initial setting.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #15 on: 18 October 2019, 06:46:45 »
If those aren't working, look at loading inferno ammo in your SRM launchers. Tanks pop under enough inferno hits.

Infernoes are... variable against tanks.  Each one does generate a critical hit, but with a -2 penalty.  so you need an 8+ to generate a crit, and the best you can roll is effectively a 10
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #16 on: 18 October 2019, 07:17:05 »
  A heavy reliance on missiles is a form of predictability. Faced with a similar missile-boat enemy, I have installed multiple AMS systems to negate clouds of missiles.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #17 on: 18 October 2019, 07:31:00 »
Try carrying Thunder LRMs for instant minefields. Your tanker will love driving through those.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #18 on: 18 October 2019, 08:38:07 »
Actually combat vehicles are quite weaker than battlemechs when both of them are fully optimized, because of some reasons:

-Fusion Engines on the vehicles requires 50% more weights, the flaw that already makes battlemechs far superior over the vehicles alone. Even if you are ignore the other flaws on the vehicles, they are inferior to battlemechs just because of this.
-They can't use Endo Steel internal structure, which makes the weight gap even worse.
-Cannot use Double Heat Sinks at all, although they ignore almost all non-energy heat source.
--ACs, which should be one of the their favorate, is good on the close range, but they can't go melee.
-Turrets are good but requires more weights, and without those turrets they are no more than a joke.
-Crit roll against Combat Vehicles are more likely to destroy the components on the vehicle than mechs.
--Vehicles are destroyed as soon as ONE section of internal is destroyed, rather than mechs that keep lives until either head or center torso is destroyed.
-They are suffered by motive hits, that makes them easier to be immobilized.
-If an ammo rack is explodes, the vehicle lose all the ammunition rather than only a ton worth of ammo.
-Apart Hover/VTOL/WiGE, they are not so faster than mechs, and/or they are more weak. Most vehicles are also restricted by the terrain as well.
-Can't make melee attack.
-Can't use Jump Jets properly.


There are some pros on CVs, though it is not enough to beat mechs.
-Easy to use FF armors, although the benefit is superficial compared by mechs with Endo Steel - even Heavy FF doesn't make much weight saving.
-Ignore most non-energy heat source, although they can't use DHS as I said above.
-Can take Hover/VTOL.
-fewer parts means they are less likely to be penetrated by non-crit lucky shot on the weak spot. If it keep face to face with you, then you are end up with hit its front in the most times.
-Turrets are handy, although it requires more weight.



In the plain ground, perhaps some CVs claim victory over mechs sometimes. If it is succession war era it would be more likely to do, because Double Heat Sink is lostech in the era and both mechs and tanks are have similar firepower. Tanks are still worse because they requires 50% more weights for the fusion engine, although they saves the weights for the heat sinks depend on the weapon of choice.

But, with DHS, and same optimization, it is a tough mission to beat the mechs if what you have is the combat vehicles because combat vehicles are designed to be inferior to battlemechs. If you are lose with mechs most times, then the problem seems optimization and tactics, rather than the unit class' sheer power.

If both forces have similar level of commander, similar techs and similar size of force(and tonnage), then usually battlemechs have the upper hand unless the terrain is optimized for the vehicle force. Unfortunately, usually mechs are better at using the terrains too.


And... Infernos are bane of CVs, for each hits forces them to make a crit roll(although with decreased chance). If you are able to get close, kicking it will helps to destroy them too.


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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #19 on: 18 October 2019, 10:38:32 »
One thing to remember about Infernos: on the vehicle crit table, if you roll a critical hit for something that's already happened, you go up to the next highest number on the table that hasn't already suffered a crit.  So yeah, they're not going to get a 12 straight off, but continually poking a tank with Infernos will kill them.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #20 on: 18 October 2019, 10:45:07 »
  A heavy reliance on missiles is a form of predictability. Faced with a similar missile-boat enemy, I have installed multiple AMS systems to negate clouds of missiles.
Depends on the MMLs he's packing.  If they're the MML-9s, AMS will do all right.  If they're MML-3s, which also happen to be the most effective MMLs for vehicles, you're SOL.  Because of how BT handles AMS, you're then shooting down, at most, 1 missile from 1 MML rack per AMS, while each tank is firing up to dozens of racks.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #21 on: 18 October 2019, 11:28:59 »
Taking on a single tank with a Battlemech is heavily skewed in the 'Mech's favor.  If you win initiative, move the 'Mech into the same hex as the tank.  Neither can shoot, but the 'Mech can make physical attacks.  Facing two tanks isn't much worse: you park on top of one, shoot at the other, and then melee the first.  The problem comes in when you have a tank company all targeting one or two 'Mechs, and standing on top of one doesn't protect you from the rest.

SRMs and LBX autocannons are ideal for parking vehicles permanently (each missile or cluster pellet gets an independent location roll and a fairly high chance for a non-penetrating motive crit, and then you can make called shots at a specific location on the immobile vehicle at better odds than their randomly placed shots in return.

Inferno rounds that MISS and set the hex on fire can work wonders against an immobile vehicle that has to sit there and fry until the fire goes out, if you're using rules for starting fires.  Smoke can limit lines of sight to allow you to more easily engage one vehicle at a time, or with the others at least suffering penalties to their fire.

Overall, vehicles can be competitive against 'Mechs in the right conditions, but are seriously disadvantaged when out of their element.  You want to engage them where they're out of their element.

BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #22 on: 18 October 2019, 11:38:49 »
Would like more info.  What exactly are on these tanks?  What BV limits are in place?  How skilled are the pilots?

Most of the tanks actually run PPCs and autocannon 5's (He has a tank he particularly likes that has 6 AC5s.) these are obviously the more expensive ones (think 1,000+ BV.) On the cheaper end, (500-800 BV) Tank guy prefers multiple MML 5's, the usual is about two per tank, turret mounted of course. Pretty much every custom he has has a fusion engine so he can move faster. The only stock tank he actually enjoys running is the Schrek, but we don't see it much due to the smaller nature of our games. In term of BV limits, we have mostly been playing in the 1,500 range (We don't exactly have entire Saturdays to blow yet because college is college lol.) In this range we obviously get out numbered by at least one for example if there's two mechs on the table he's usually got three tanks. Last but not least, the pilot skills are usually 5, with a gunnery of 4 for everyone.

  A heavy reliance on missiles is a form of predictability. Faced with a similar missile-boat enemy, I have installed multiple AMS systems to negate clouds of missiles.

I have recently done this, as has another one of the mech guys in my group, but we have yet to try them... Going off what another comment here said about AMS's against MML5s, I would say that may turn the tables rather quickly!

Third of all, Battle Armor.  Tanks are horribly vulnerable to swarm attacks.  And they have no defenses against enemies who are in the same hex as they are.


I actually do have some squads of battle armor, but just started using them, so I definitely do not have much of a strategy down yet... (For reference, I've got two 4-man squads of Longinus BA with small lasers and SRMs.) They just move so slow! I have yet to look around for an effective way of transporting them, which is probably the obvious solution to their slow movement.
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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #23 on: 18 October 2019, 11:44:18 »
If you win initiative, move the 'Mech into the same hex as the tank.  Neither can shoot, but the 'Mech can make physical attacks.

Wait I can do what now? This I did not know... it's about to be clobbering time.  :D
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #24 on: 18 October 2019, 12:12:11 »
You said earlier that this was medium mechs vs medium tanks. A tank that has 6 ac 5s is not a medium vehicle. Even if he's using light autocannons, which are period inappropriate for the 60s, that's assault tank level firepower.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #25 on: 18 October 2019, 12:13:20 »
I actually do have some squads of battle armor, but just started using them, so I definitely do not have much of a strategy down yet... (For reference, I've got two 4-man squads of Longinus BA with small lasers and SRMs.) They just move so slow! I have yet to look around for an effective way of transporting them, which is probably the obvious solution to their slow movement.

If you don't want to use units you don't have models for, remember OmniMechs can carry a squad of BattleArmour with no penalty to movement.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #26 on: 18 October 2019, 12:20:27 »
Consider deploying the Longinus squads without the SRMs if you want more initial mobility.  Sometimes the loss in firepower is worth the tradeoff.   Or take a design without a torso missile mount, such as the Infiltrator MK II.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #27 on: 18 October 2019, 12:38:36 »
Another thing to remember about battle armor and conventional infantry is that they can attack units in the same hex as themselves, unlike every other unit type.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #28 on: 18 October 2019, 12:47:37 »
Most of the tanks actually run PPCs and autocannon 5's (He has a tank he particularly likes that has 6 AC5s.) these are obviously the more expensive ones (think 1,000+ BV.) On the cheaper end, (500-800 BV) Tank guy prefers multiple MML 5's, the usual is about two per tank, turret mounted of course.....In term of BV limits, we have mostly been playing in the 1,500 range

With that sort of BV range and those kinds of tanks, you could field something like a Locust -3M and a Snake -1V and stand a very solid chance of winning. As long as you field basically anything that can land a decent number of clusters, you should be OK. Charge the AC/5 or PPC boat, flank their side at high speed to make yourself largely unhittable, and once they're immobilized you can easily focus down the weakest point in their armor. You should be taking out a tank every two turns at that rate, since at that BV range, they can't have that much armor (especially for things like Schreks).

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #29 on: 18 October 2019, 16:54:30 »
Couple of things . . .

Single unit fights are not really faster because of damage accumulation, typical quick play is 4-5k in BV2 which lets you bring 2-6 units depending on what- I tend to get 1 or 2 mechs, a tank and some BA.  Also, do any pilot improvements count in the BV total?  They should otherwise its a apples vs oranges.

Second, you are talking about crits . . . on the leg?  Unless you are playing with floating crits they should all happen in the torso- unless you are not limiting special ammo, like Armor-Piercing AC or Tandem-Charge SRM ammos.

Honestly, in the 'still learning phase' each person should have at least 2 units under whatever BV limits you select.  Tech should be limited up to the FCCW, and no customs- its easier to number crunch and make something 'superior' than it is to work with what exists and learn the fundamentals of the game.  My group keeps this pretty simple . . . X Era of play (use http://masterunitlist.info/), 5000 BV including pilots & ammo, 3-8 units total (Protos count as 1), and tech level (Std or advanced which is post 3090).  If your table DOES want to do a bit of customization more often, I suggest using IS Omnis (something like 15 or so) which lets them play with the weapons package they may like without tricking out the chassis to exploit some things.

Want to cheese back against his armor without putting on the tech/ammo restrictions?  Get a Omni like the Stooping Hawk and load it with Plasma Cannons with more DHS & JJs.  You will not be able to do much to the other mechs but those Plasma Cannons are the best thing to ruin his tanks.  Oh yeah, and use the delta maps- his tanks are not likely to be able to get through the water.  Stooping Hawk Tankbuster- 4 Plasma Cannons (place 1 in CT w/1 ammo bin in head), 3t ammo, 4 JJ, and rest DHS = dead tanks.

Why?  Because the Plasma Cannon does 3D6 damage to a tank with each hit, so you have a max of 18 damage to 4 locations.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #30 on: 18 October 2019, 17:12:42 »
Plasma cannons deal damage in 5 point clusters to tanks.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #31 on: 18 October 2019, 17:17:53 »
Yeah, dropped that line when I was going through the roll set . . . still with tanks, its going to hit mostly on 2 facings & turret . . . couple of turns you are going to get into the squishy bits.
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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #32 on: 18 October 2019, 17:27:31 »
Second, you are talking about crits . . . on the leg?  Unless you are playing with floating crits they should all happen in the torso- unless you are not limiting special ammo, like Armor-Piercing AC or Tandem-Charge SRM ammos.
I probably should have been more specific there... we've had a few legs blown off due to some lucky 12 rolls on the critical hit table. Not a huge deal just wanted to throw out some examples. Loosing a leg is frustration city for the newbies but they've since learned the value of partial cover. :)

Stooping Hawk Tankbuster- 4 Plasma Cannons (place 1 in CT w/1 ammo bin in head), 3t ammo, 4 JJ, and rest DHS = dead tanks.
 
I have not used any of the Omni rules yet but this has certainly sparked my interest. :o Thanks!
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #33 on: 18 October 2019, 17:34:24 »
So I recently started college and have taught a few guys here the total warfare rules for BT. Thankfully, two of the three guys I play with decided to mainly play Mechs, which is obviously really fun. We only have one problem. There's one guy who has taken it upon himself to only play custom tanks. (Lots of MMLs and armor, and most of them move at 4/6... that's what I get for teaching him to to use MegaMek lab.) Now, our games have become struggles of running one or two medium mechs against at least two or three medium tanks that are just showering us with missiles or the occasional PPC. And we loose. Not all the time, but enough. I'm new to this game and certainly not a stranger to strategy, but sometimes superior numbers and armor points just win in a war of attrition. Not to mention, greater effects of critical hits on our mechs make them seem fragile... I know better than to get mad at a few plastic tanks, and loosing a game here and there is nothing new for me, but my new recruits are starting to get tired of it and may move to tanks as well! I NEED HELP ENDING THIS REIN OF TERROR!
.

...why is he pulling tanks with horses?

Try battlearmor, cluster ammo from LB-X ACs, VTOLs with AC/2s, inferno SRMs, Light mechs with jump jets to close with him quickly and kick him to death, and failing all that - force him to use Canon units.

They're nowhere near as good.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #34 on: 18 October 2019, 20:03:04 »

Put simply, we've just been having very lucky crit hits that blow a leg off or hit a gyro or something early game, which can be frustrating to my newbies.
  There isn't a whole lot you can do about luck. Your mech players are going to have to learn. As the GM, you have the right for a copy of every design used in your games. If they are using MegaMek (I swear by it) I'm sure your tanker is play testing his designs -Something I've always done before fielding a custom unit on tabletop. Have your mech players do the same. A lance of light, fast mechs is worth more than the the same BV of a single, kick-butt heavy mech. 

« Last Edit: 19 October 2019, 04:15:31 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #35 on: 18 October 2019, 23:13:40 »
Quick update for everyone who posted on this thread: Recently used a few of the strategies listed here against two tanks. BV was around 1,500, so I ran a Thunderbolt TDR-7M (Figured that the LRM 15 with its clusters and a streak SRM 2 would help with critting, and the medium/large lasers would give me good brawling at medium ranges.) Attacked the sides, maneuvered for melee when I could (it didn't happen too much lol) and tried to roll high on the motive damage tables... the result was a complete success. Destroyed both of the tanks in a few turns after they both became immobilized/moved ridiculously slow. Thanks for all the help guys, the strategies worked just as intended! MECHS FOR THE WIN!!!

Oh yeah, and we're no longer playing with MMLs  :thumbsup:
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #36 on: 19 October 2019, 00:37:32 »
Well, please don't hate MML-3 much. It is a technological revolution of the missile system.

Anyway, it is happy to see that the idea works. :)
« Last Edit: 19 October 2019, 00:41:15 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #37 on: 19 October 2019, 00:47:42 »
mmls scale in weight as if they were SRMs. don't hate on something that can spray srms up close and minefields at range

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #38 on: 19 October 2019, 04:57:13 »
MECHS FOR THE WIN!!!

  Good for you!

  It's a learning curve. There is no ultimate weapon or unit in BT. Every unit has their strengths and weaknesses; When you've played long enough, you will know how to exploit both. After every game, my group would retire to an all-night coffee house to discuss the game and review the lessons learned. A debriefing helps reinforce training and make sure  all the players are on the same page. The tankers in our group learned that the rules keep mechs on the top of the food chain but vehicles  and infantry must never be underestimated.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #39 on: 19 October 2019, 06:48:55 »
Glad to hear it!  Hopefully your tank player took the loss well, and didn't take the wrong lessons from the battle.  It would be a shame if they thought the lack of MMLs is what cramped their style.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #40 on: 19 October 2019, 08:16:46 »
LBX autocannons, and inferno SRMs on FAST platforms.  you need at least 2 SRM infernoes for the really juicy crits, thanks to changes to TW, and you're going to have problems if he figures out the optimal way to run tanks in TW (finda  good parking space, park, and shoot. don't bother trying to move, it's counterproductive after that first motive system crit.)
plasma rifles are also good. 

Basically your guy is running customs, so use customs optimized for killing conventional units.  That tends to mean lots of crit-seeking goodness and secondary effects weapons.  things to avoid: Anything that jams, and builds optimized for killing 'mechs (Icebox energy boat builds).

it's a shame so many f what used to be legal aren't available now in terms of basic rules-the old inferno rules really forced a different kind of engagement, since a Com-2D commando could kill an Alacorn outright or force it out of position easily just by popping up with some racks of inferno munitions. (old rule that no longer applies; if your  tank is in a hex and was hit by, or near-missed by, an Inferno SRM, he had to make a survival roll during the heat phase or die, and if he STAYED there, he had to do it again with a penalty.  this kind of made parking with tanks a REALLY BAD IDEA.  the change to TW's rules for infernoes have made it THE BEST IDEA EVER when running tanks. likewise, moving the artillery to the optional rules means camping up 2 to a hex is now THE BEST IDEA EVAR for tanks that park, esp. since Swarm LRMs are no longer a thing.)

but while most of the 'cheap' ways that 'mech units killed tanks have been removed from the game, and the crit table's been expanded to 'mech duration rolling contests, crit-seeking still works, just not that often.  LBXs', large racks of SRMs, large racks of LRMs, plasma rifles, inferno missiles, these still work, and since his tracks are moving 4/6 at the start, that means they're not the total slab of armor they could be at 3/5, you just need to have something faster enough to provoke difficult targeting, that employs every cheap way left in the game to exploit  his decision to use tanks in groups.  Notably, crit-seekers are your very bestest friends ever, because if he's optimized himself at 4/6, you're still going to waste a lot of time eroding armor plate before getting to the juicy innards.  massed cluster rolls will help here, you want things like the LBX Enfield 'mech if you can get it, or just turn out a custom with the same basic layout, backed up by archers and catapults to rain down the LRM fire en-masse as he makes his approach-force HIM to play aggressively, move just enough to get a TMM without the jumping penalty or running penalty, fire, move next turn, fire.  rain down clusters of crit-seekers (LRMs are teh easiest go-to for this), then dust him with MORE crit seeking goodness as the range closes with LBX autocannons, then deliver fire with plasma and inferno at closer ranges.

it does mean more dice rolling.  I recommend building a dice-box to handle groups of location/to hit data to speed up fire-phases, and have your movement pre-planned in advance with at least two options; won initiative, and lost initiative.

a few options you might consider:

Cavalry AH vtols for support, or any fast moving, SRM or LRM armed VTOL units to supplement or compliment the mechs on your team.  alternately, fast moving light 'mechs that can build a high to-hit number like the venerable Jenner, able to bring cluster/critty weapons into range and maybe survive the experience.  Alternately push for higher BV games that let you run heavier 'mechs that can weather the papercuts and get in close, where kiks, stomps, and axes can be brought into play, or shift venues from open terrain, to urban terrain and introduce him to the joys of rubble, building collapses and blocking roads. (Terrain that is impassable to vees, even tracks, can be created and used by 'mechs, urban tightens sight-lines and reduces the effect and impact of his massed LRM fire, and so on.)

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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #41 on: 19 October 2019, 16:16:02 »
It's a learning curve. There is no ultimate weapon or unit in BT. Every unit has their strengths and weaknesses; When you've played long enough, you will know how to exploit both. After every game, my group would retire to an all-night coffee house to discuss the game and review the lessons learned. A debriefing helps reinforce training and make sure  all the players are on the same page. The tankers in our group learned that the rules keep mechs on the top of the food chain but vehicles  and infantry must never be underestimated.

Speakin' the truth man. I think my players are understanding the concept that battletech doesn't have a single "meta" way to play. That's why it's such a great game, because with a little practice, almost every strategy has its merits.  ;)
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #42 on: 19 October 2019, 16:20:10 »
True that... and welcome to no longer having to prove you're human!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #43 on: 19 October 2019, 21:57:29 »
Orbital Bombardment......Nuke them from space. only way to be sure. >:D

Strafing runs from heavy aerospace fighters.

Bigger and meaner Mechs. If he is use to going against Mediums and Lights. Throw a heavy or even an Assault if your particularly salty. They gonna learn today!!!
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #44 on: 20 October 2019, 20:27:08 »
Speakin' the truth man. I think my players are understanding the concept that battletech doesn't have a single "meta" way to play. That's why it's such a great game, because with a little practice, almost every strategy has its merits.  ;)

Doing the opposite of what I suggest is a solid foundation to any tactical acumen

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #45 on: 22 October 2019, 08:14:17 »
Artillery, Mines, any type of autocannon that out ranges LRMs. Specialty ammo can help. Field Gun Artillery for fun. Using the various special armor types. Counter LRM batteries. AMS lots of AMS (ballistic, laser, and RISC)


If you don't mind getting a bit closer that would allow for artillery cannons, and more autocannon types. Fast units with incendiary weapons. Or just fast units like Savannah Masters, and Fireball Mechs. There's one that can move 40 MP. And LAMs. People hate LAMs. You could also go with waves of small fast support vehicles. Mount some infantry weapons on them, get under their LRMs minimum range and give them death by paper cuts. Make him choose between dealing with all the small vehicles running about or the larger units shelling them.

You could also use Super Heavy Mechs. Give them some long range weapons, specialty armor, and lots of AMS and let them draw the tanks fire while your lighter faster units come in from the sides.


And if he really likes tanks, has he met QuadVees yet?   Or AutoMechs?

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #46 on: 22 October 2019, 08:24:24 »
Mechanized infantry come to mind. Something fast enough to close the gap with his tanks. The sheer number of damage rolls means you’re gonna start immobilizing them quickly.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #47 on: 22 October 2019, 15:54:42 »
I just had my first experience using a tank and had a really good time.  The sheer mass of armor was really effective as was the ability to fire all of my weapons and not care about heat.

That being said I could see that tanks have a LOT of weaknesses to exploit.  Even being attacked from the front my tank could be immobilized and I nearly was, the only thing keeping me in the fight was that I backed the tank into a little corner and since I was the biggest target the mechs all stayed close to me allowing me to shoot and that I had a turret and LRMs allowing me to indirect fire when they did move out of sight.  With a few lucky hits a tank could be taken out of a fight much more often than a mech of the same value.  And this was a combat with a minimum of weapons that are more effective on tanks (namely they had some SRMs and one LB10x AC but had no infernos, no plasma weaponry, and even the stuff they did have were not able to be massed against me).  If they did have more weapons that were extra effective against tanks I do not think it would have lasted long even with the huge amount of armor.

I now have a lot of respect for tanks but I also see that they have a lot of weaknesses to exploit that really compensate for their advantages.  I will say though that their advantages are the type that can also be used to absolutely devastating effect if you can put them in the right situation.

Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #48 on: 22 October 2019, 19:24:38 »
Once they're immobilized, tanks will succumb to repeated kicks from 'mechs they can't shoot.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #49 on: 22 October 2019, 20:26:48 »
Once they're immobilized, tanks will succumb to repeated kicks from 'mechs they can't shoot.

Why wouldn't an immobilized tank be able to shoot?   ???
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Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #50 on: 22 October 2019, 20:34:32 »
Tanks (nor anything else save infantry) can't shoot units in the same hex with them...

Sartris

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #51 on: 22 October 2019, 20:58:10 »
If the mech enters the hex of the immobilized vehicle, the vee can’t shoot it - infantry gets the monopoly on that. Physical attacks on the other hand  :beatdown:

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #52 on: 22 October 2019, 21:14:59 »
At that point, forced withdrawal rules (including abandoning vehicles) should be seriously considered.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #53 on: 22 October 2019, 23:02:28 »
Tanks (nor anything else save infantry) can't shoot units in the same hex with them...

Oh? News to me...

I'll just use my turreted SRM Pack to set fire to everthing near me....  >:D :thumbsup:

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #54 on: 22 October 2019, 23:08:22 »
Good idea.

That means you can't escape when my mech jumps into your hex and starts doing the stompy dance.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #55 on: 23 October 2019, 10:22:05 »
I love it when the opponent fields one big, scary tank with an AC/20.  My little Locust runs up to it from 10-12 hexes away and stands on its turret, then kick it.  If I win initiative, I stand on the tank and kick it again.  If I lose initiative, I run 10-11 hexes and turn, and if he moves to bring me into gun range, the to-hit odds are 4 base, +4 for long range, +4 for my run, and at least +1 for his own movement.  Unless he's got a Veteran gunner, or moves at Flank Speed to move into Medium Range ***if*** he was facing in the right direction already (giving him a terrible shot at 12+ to-hit), he can't hit me.

Usual outcome: either the tank is immobilized, or its turret jams.  At that point, the Locust pilot just needs to avoid mistakes and it's "game over" for the tanker.  Once in 3-5 games, the tank will hit one of those lucky shots and core the Locust.

When the opponent fields TWO of those big, scary tanks, and places them 1-2 hexes apart, then it gets a lot harder, unless you field something that can outrange the tanks.
« Last Edit: 23 October 2019, 10:24:12 by Kovax »

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #56 on: 23 October 2019, 11:08:27 »
Tanks (nor anything else save infantry) can't shoot units in the same hex with them...

What about A/B/M-pods? can those be triggered against infantry in the same hex? (I honestly don't know but it would make sense to me.)

AlphaMirage

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #57 on: 23 October 2019, 11:26:35 »
I never thought about putting an m pod on it but that sounds potentially promising

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #58 on: 23 October 2019, 11:27:20 »
A and B pods can be used against infantry/BA in the same hex.  I'm not sure if M pods can.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #59 on: 23 October 2019, 11:53:21 »
Bear in mind, A-pods are extremely restricted as to when they can attack infantry - highly recommend you read their rules in detail beforehand to avoid any unpleasant surprises.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #60 on: 23 October 2019, 11:59:57 »
a-pods are trigger weapons - you can't just pop them on a whim

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #61 on: 23 October 2019, 16:39:15 »
I just had my first experience using a tank and had a really good time.  The sheer mass of armor was really effective as was the ability to fire all of my weapons and not care about heat.

That being said I could see that tanks have a LOT of weaknesses to exploit.  Even being attacked from the front my tank could be immobilized and I nearly was, the only thing keeping me in the fight was that I backed the tank into a little corner and since I was the biggest target the mechs all stayed close to me allowing me to shoot and that I had a turret and LRMs allowing me to indirect fire when they did move out of sight.  With a few lucky hits a tank could be taken out of a fight much more often than a mech of the same value.  And this was a combat with a minimum of weapons that are more effective on tanks (namely they had some SRMs and one LB10x AC but had no infernos, no plasma weaponry, and even the stuff they did have were not able to be massed against me).  If they did have more weapons that were extra effective against tanks I do not think it would have lasted long even with the huge amount of armor.

I now have a lot of respect for tanks but I also see that they have a lot of weaknesses to exploit that really compensate for their advantages.  I will say though that their advantages are the type that can also be used to absolutely devastating effect if you can put them in the right situation.

WHY DID YOU TRY TO MOVE????

Okay, quick piece of advice; unless your tank is under 70 tons, you shouldn't be moving much.  re-read the hit location tables and crit charts, the game rewards you for parking your tank and relying on ranged fire.  especially if your tank moves 3/5 or slower and comes equipped with turrets.  why is that? because the bulk and majority of your criticals hit the motive systems, and unlike a 'mech, you don't have a squishy head that can be capped with a single shot.  the result is, most of the critical hits will migrate right down to your treads, so if you aren't moving, it's having zero impact on your ability to keep slinging accurate fire, and barring a lucky hit (a VERY lucky hit) with a lucky crit, they can't really do much of anything about it, except avoid your zone of fire, or rush up for a physical attack-they've got to wear through your armor to do anything to stop you from being able to fire.

if your tank moves 4/6 or higher, congratulations, you have the option of firing and moving without taking a major penalty on your to-hit.

but for the majority of the newer designs and bigger sellers, your tank is a bunker with just enough movement to emplace itself, mobility tactics on 3/5 or slower are a waste of effort.

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Crimson Dawn

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #62 on: 24 October 2019, 03:16:12 »
WHY DID YOU TRY TO MOVE????

Okay, quick piece of advice; unless your tank is under 70 tons, you shouldn't be moving much.  re-read the hit location tables and crit charts, the game rewards you for parking your tank and relying on ranged fire.  especially if your tank moves 3/5 or slower and comes equipped with turrets.  why is that? because the bulk and majority of your criticals hit the motive systems, and unlike a 'mech, you don't have a squishy head that can be capped with a single shot.  the result is, most of the critical hits will migrate right down to your treads, so if you aren't moving, it's having zero impact on your ability to keep slinging accurate fire, and barring a lucky hit (a VERY lucky hit) with a lucky crit, they can't really do much of anything about it, except avoid your zone of fire, or rush up for a physical attack-they've got to wear through your armor to do anything to stop you from being able to fire.

if your tank moves 4/6 or higher, congratulations, you have the option of firing and moving without taking a major penalty on your to-hit.

but for the majority of the newer designs and bigger sellers, your tank is a bunker with just enough movement to emplace itself, mobility tactics on 3/5 or slower are a waste of effort.

Lol I moved once.  My tank started at the edge of a base and then I backed it around a corner behind a wall so that I could fire my LRMs indirectly over the wall (spotted by battle armor) while I waited for the mechs to turn the corner so I could smack them with lasers and SRMs.  The only other time I would have thought about moving is if I had a straight shot at exactly 5 hexes away from a mech then I may have considered a charge at max speed (max speed of 5) since as being an 85 ton tank I think I may have had a fair chance at taking a leg with a charge if I got lucky (though I am not sure as nobody wanted to look up the charging rules with tanks so I could find out the damage at the time).

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #63 on: 24 October 2019, 09:54:36 »
Lol I moved once.  My tank started at the edge of a base and then I backed it around a corner behind a wall so that I could fire my LRMs indirectly over the wall (spotted by battle armor) while I waited for the mechs to turn the corner so I could smack them with lasers and SRMs.  The only other time I would have thought about moving is if I had a straight shot at exactly 5 hexes away from a mech then I may have considered a charge at max speed (max speed of 5) since as being an 85 ton tank I think I may have had a fair chance at taking a leg with a charge if I got lucky (though I am not sure as nobody wanted to look up the charging rules with tanks so I could find out the damage at the time).
you used your 85 tonner correctly then.  scenarios where you can rely on the enemy 'coming to you' is where those assault class vehicles shine, they don't do well in pursuit, breakthrough, or any sort of maneuver combat, but they're great as what they are (and teh rules encourage  them to be), which is bunkers.

If you're an "offense" player (but don't like to rely on hoverengined hovercraft or the WiGE hovertank playng style), 4/6 is the slowest base movement you can use for playing offense, and at 4/6 you want to be fairly heavy.  (Manticore, Patton or Po unless you can afford that omnitank thing they gave the Fedsuns). in the 55-40 ton bracket, you want a minimum 5/8 if you intend to play offense with your tanks (Myrmidon is your poster-child here).  Below that, invest in Hovers or VTOLs (But NOT the craptastic Yellowjacket.  sure it's got a big gun, it also has a big rotor and losing movement means falling out of the sky to the death of your crew, or redistributing Poland Model A gauss rifles as lucky salvage to the enemy,instead of gauss rifle slugs at high velocity.)

Playing offense with tanks is something where you begin your planning by expecting to lose units.  Even in today's much, much, longer rolling fest for tank damage, you're not QUITE as tough as a 'mech when it comes to playing offense-it's going to be easier for the enemy to counter them, take this into account, and compensate for it in your tactics.

for example: move into "Hull down" positions whenever possible before firing, but don't linger there more than 1-2 rounds, keep as many hexes as you can manage at cruise between you and your start-point every movement phase, make use of your turret, to keep slinging shell until you either lose turret motion, or run out of ammo, space vehicles for mutual supporting fire, but not so close that one artillery strike from an Arrow IV can nail both.

GROUP your SHOTS.  if you have 3 potential targets, pick the one that you have more units in a position to hit them with, and concentrate that fire with all available units.  Tanks on offense are all about bringing it to decisive QUICKLY, before you lose too many MP or have too many units locked up/knocked out.  losing 1/4 of a 'mech lance is more of a problem than losing 1/4 of a tank company.

Run similar chassis.  If you do nothing else, all your tanks of a given weight should be the same model and class.  This simplifies book-keeping and it simplifies mass fire by grouping them together for movement and engagement.  Running in pairs with just a couple hexes of separation also means that when his light 'mech jumps onto one of your tanks, the other can 'scratch the back' at good to-hit numbers.  It also means that there is no way in double-blind that you're not going to see that enemy unit.

this stuff is basic, you probably already know all of it.  the takeaway is the first statement: assume you will lose units and plan accordingly. Move your tanks in a staggered echelon, roughly 2 hexes apart across open terrain, where each wing pair is within short/medium range of each other, with fire envelopes from main guns overlapping.  In urban, stagger them in column formation with VTOL support a similar distance.  This relieves SOME of the pressure the other side can apply using physical attacks.  Not all, just some. 

with small LRM racks (5s) use smoke rounds to screen your forces wehn crossing open terrain against heaiver or clantech forces.  a company of Pattons laying smoke and loading Precision in 3055-3060 play can wreak havoc on a star or even a Nova of clan units by using PA instead of standard shot out of those outdated 3025 era main guns.  a company of Po are even better at this due to the effectiveness vs. Suited infantry.  for lighter use, Myrmidons should carry infernoes whenever possible, to make life less comfortable for points of Elemental BA or similar forces.  Infantry on the attack should probably best be handled with Mechanized as opposed to Motorized, and should ideally fill in the gaps between tanks in the formation, riding somewhere in the gaps between your leading and trailing echelons, to give them reaction room once the enemy is engaged, except in forested or urban terrain, where your infantry should ideally be running point/flank security.

when working with BA, it's by faction and type.  quad suits like the Fenrir fill in the gaps between tanks in formation, or run ahead where it's convenient (sweeping through buildings or wooded areas to get ahead of the formation.)  Humanoid suits should likely be devoted either to Battelemech support, or partner with your self-moving bunkers in a defensive arrangement, as they can't keep up with your faster tanks.  Fa Shih, of course, can 'tank ride'.

when working in conjunction with 'mechs, the 'mechs should ideally be kitted for close range or sniper duty, and match or exceed your tank units in movement.  They're tougher, let them take point whenever it's practical and use your tanks to exploit what they open up, again, concentrate fire whenever you can to keep your 'mechwarriors in fighting trim by reducing the amount of damage they have to soak via killing the enemy faster.  for faster, tougher designs meant to close-up and scrap, (Wraith, some variations of other 55 to 65 ton 'mechs over 5/8) a diamond formation works best-the trailing tank should be in medium range for your point 'man' in the 'mech, with the 'wing' tanks being at short to medium with either main guns, or long-ranged secondary weapons.  (Gauss Rommel is a good choice for wing/trail tanks, but Po with that lovely LBX is also a good option.  avoid Ultra-Patton like the curse and plague it is-the Ultra always jams at the worst possible time, and requires going back to the rear to unjam it.)

Tanks to avoid on offense: anything that lacks a turret.  if you can't get 360 degrees sweep with your main gun, you're going to be exposing yourself to accurate return fire just to get one or two shots off before being immobilized and taken (effectively) out of the fight.

Tanks to avoid on Defense: same thing, unless you've got a map-decided choke point and hidden units rules in play.

The exception: SAvannahmaster, hovertanks with good speed (7 or more) on swampy, flattish ground.

Movement on Offense should resemble a school of fish-that is, your tanks should move as one, changing direction as one, choosing a vector as one.  Tanks work best in open-spaced phalanxes.  If you want more 'spread out' bring other unit types (VTOL, hover, 'mech)  if you lose tanks in the center, drift one flank or the other (or both) to close it up, but always, always keep moving.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #64 on: 05 November 2019, 05:38:22 »
 >:D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

hahaha...

First I have to ask how you are regulating the games? Are you using Battle Value, the point system for Battletech, or something else?

Tanks can compete with mechs, as you have seen, but they several disadvantages going against them. The mechs may seem vulnerable to critical hits, but mechs are far more durable as they can lose locations and survive. Critical hits are also a lot softer on mechs then vehicles that can outright destroy them, kill their crew, blow up their weapons and ammo, in addition to the motive system problems. While tanks can compete, they are far more fragile then mechs and their BV is overvalued.

The easiest way to destroy a tank is through critical hits and destroying their motive system. There is a reason why a certain amount of armor is either to light or just a waste of bv. If the armor is to light then you can be killed through the destruction of a location. An example would be anything under 20 points per location for something moving 4/6. Some designs go nuts and add close to 100 points to the front. Its nice, but by the time someone eats through those 100 points the tank has long been destroyed through other means.

Some ways of killing or crippling the tanks would be:
LBX cannons using cluster rounds
SRMs for shear numbers spam
Inferno SRMs since each missile gets an automatic roll for a critical
Autocannons with Armor Piercing ammo
Infantry- for all of those 2 point clusters

In one of the last games that I played I had a Jenner C2, which has 3 MML5s, jump behind a fresh Alacorn tank. If I used standard srm ammo I would have done a decent amount of damage to the tank's rear armor and a chance to hurt it's motive system and maybe a crit or two. Instead I used inferno srm ammo and landed at least 6 chances to get a critical. The result was that I had crit everything that the tank had in the location, which left the tank as a pristine paperweight that could only fire forward. I disagree that destroying a tank's engine would allow it to keep firing Gauss rifles, but ignoring that it was an easy kill. That was 1,800+ BV knocked out in one round of fighting by a 800 BV light mech. Had that tank been facing a mech with different weapons and less mobiilty then the tank would have been a major threat and likely for more then a single turn.

If you change how you attack his tanks then you should see things shift significantly.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #65 on: 06 November 2019, 12:05:05 »
One thing that I and a number of friends overlooked for years was side mounted weapons on tanks.  Side weapons are broadside weapons. It never dawned on my until I saw the TRO 3050 Upgrade art of the Puma Assault Tank.  Yeah, it has paired LRM 20s, but if ever find yourself in a position to fire both racks in the same turn, the fewmets have probably hit the windmill.

Tanks don't track heat.  They pay for that by having to carry enough heat sinks to handle all the laser/ppc heat they can generate in a turn.  The OP said no Jihad, so vehicular stealth isn't on the table yet. If you set a few battles in arctic conditions, the tanks will suffer from the snow and ice.  The mechs will to an extent as well, but mechs will also benefit from the frigid temperatures acting like free heat sinks. Bring out the flash bulbs!

Something out of Tac Ops that will help nerf the tank player's missile salvos, in addition to packing a whole pile of AMS on your mechs is Chaff Pods(TO 299).

But the dgorsman's advice on the first page is the best so far.  You're problem isn't about how to fight tanks, or even min-maxed tanks. It's about how to keep the game fun for everyone.
Tighten up rules for play at your table e.g. make it a custom Mech only night with limits on weight/number/BV/etc.  Next time, make it a combined arms night with everyone fielding the same numbers of each type of unit.  Night after that, make it a random grinder (print out a stack of random stock Mech designs pilot balanced for a BV of ~ 2500 or so; every time a Mech drops the player random draws a replacement).  Next time, have a game of TAG.

In general, let players have fun with a challenge other than min/max better than the others.
If you find an "I win" button that lets you roll through tanks by the company, then your tank player is probably going to get frustrated.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #66 on: 06 November 2019, 12:53:22 »
By default, tanks can't fire weapons mounted on both of their sides at the same target unless they're in sponsons.  So unless you're using the expanded vehicle side firing arc rules from TacOps, you're stuck unable to make use of those pods without turning to expose your broadside to the enemy.  Remember, rules in Battletech trump artwork.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #67 on: 06 November 2019, 13:52:00 »
One thing that I and a number of friends overlooked for years was side mounted weapons on tanks.  Side weapons are broadside weapons. It never dawned on my until I saw the TRO 3050 Upgrade art of the Puma Assault Tank.  Yeah, it has paired LRM 20s, but if ever find yourself in a position to fire both racks in the same turn, the fewmets have probably hit the windmill.

Tanks don't track heat.  They pay for that by having to carry enough heat sinks to handle all the laser/ppc heat they can generate in a turn.  The OP said no Jihad, so vehicular stealth isn't on the table yet. If you set a few battles in arctic conditions, the tanks will suffer from the snow and ice.  The mechs will to an extent as well, but mechs will also benefit from the frigid temperatures acting like free heat sinks. Bring out the flash bulbs!

Something out of Tac Ops that will help nerf the tank player's missile salvos, in addition to packing a whole pile of AMS on your mechs is Chaff Pods(TO 299).

But the dgorsman's advice on the first page is the best so far.  You're problem isn't about how to fight tanks, or even min-maxed tanks. It's about how to keep the game fun for everyone. If you find an "I win" button that lets you roll through tanks by the company, then your tank player is probably going to get frustrated.

  My character's unit on Luthien had three Pumas and I let one of the other players use them in the Basin Lake scenario; While the Clan units concentrated on my mechs, he drove the Pumas into the middle of the Clan formations and blasted away at targets in every direction, wreaking damage and destruction around his vehicle lance, while being ignored. I wanted to slap him, because when I was ordered to pull back, those vehicles and crews were doomed, but that's what happens when you let other guys handle your equipment in a campaign -they will commit suicide while you watch them do it.

  Since my group were regular campaigners, and only played set scenarios to train the noobs, if a battle was balanced, the player was either doing it wrong, or the GM forced the player into the situation, such as the series of wave attacks in Kado-guchi Valley. At the end of the battle, the field looked like Roark's Drift with piles of dead omnis like Zulus at the feet of my dug-in lance formations...but I was too tired to sing "Men of Harlech"...

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #68 on: 06 November 2019, 15:13:13 »
By default, tanks can't fire weapons mounted on both of their sides at the same target unless they're in sponsons.  So unless you're using the expanded vehicle side firing arc rules from TacOps, you're stuck unable to make use of those pods without turning to expose your broadside to the enemy.  Remember, rules in Battletech trump artwork.

This was a mix of me not bothering to read the rules closely enough, thinking "putting broad side weapons on a tank is just a stupid idea, why there even be a rule for that?",  and the art supporting my bias. It does have some interesting implications, namely the plethora of vehicles with machine guns left and right for infantry repellent. The Challenger X's Streak 2s are good for discouraging backstabbers and BA from angling for the rear arc.  The Peregrine VTOL, once I use enough brain bleach to erase the TRO art with it's fixed forward SRM-4s, conjures shades of the AC-130, and strafing runs. Strafing runs would allow the Peregrine to maintain volume of fire, a high movement mod, and keep the distance against slow moving targets.

But other machines like the Puma, or worse, the Magi!  ::facepalm:: I get the Chaparral with it's side mlas and rear SRM-6.  It's artillery.  If the enemy is inside of 9 hexes, this thing should be running away.  Demon, side mounted MLAS, backing up a turreted Gauss.  Okay.  The Magi???  Three medium lasers that can't be brought to bear on a single target?  70 tons, 5/8 movement, and a functional damage out put of 9 points?

Secondary target rule won't suffice for firing both left and right broad sides?  Obviously not at the same target, baring sponsons.

  My character's unit on Luthien had three Pumas and I let one of the other players use them in the Basin Lake scenario; While the Clan units concentrated on my mechs, he drove the Pumas into the middle of the Clan formations and blasted away at targets in every direction, wreaking damage and destruction around his vehicle lance, while being ignored. I wanted to slap him, because when I was ordered to pull back, those vehicles and crews were doomed, but that's what happens when you let other guys handle your equipment in a campaign -they will commit suicide while you watch them do it.
Sounds like getting into position to use both LRM racks caused the aforementioned introduction of fecal matter and impeller blades. 
« Last Edit: 06 November 2019, 15:21:56 by grimlock1 »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #69 on: 06 November 2019, 15:29:00 »
I thought they could fire through the single forward hex?  Or am I thinking of Tac Ops Vehicle Firing Arcs?
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Kovax

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #70 on: 06 November 2019, 16:07:19 »
Side arc weapons can only fire directly sideways or angled back, not including the hex row directly behind.  They can't even fire into the forward half of the vehicle's inbound fire side arc.  VERY situational, at best.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #71 on: 06 November 2019, 16:17:21 »
The Magi is horrible in regular fights, because that's not what it's built for. It's an urban ambush-breaker. The excess MP and tracked chassis means that, compared to other vehicles, it has an above-average chance of staying mobile even after a hidden infantry platoon or cluster weapon gets a pointblank shot into its side. The spread-out guns means you can hit targets coming from almost any direction with damage clusters big enough to get past the damage reduction of most buildings and no worrying about turret crits locking all your guns in the wrong direction. The heavy armor means that when you pin down infantry as being in a given building hex, you can smash your way in there, where your machine guns will be effective.

Efficient? Hell no. Fun? Hell yes. >:D
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #72 on: 06 November 2019, 16:54:31 »
Those whacky weapon mounts are caused by old TRO designers not actually knowing the rules they were designing for... The weapons are located in a different place than their arc - and apparently no one at FASA noticed that the rules don't actually allow this.

And then for some reason the designs weren't corrected in later publications.

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #73 on: 06 November 2019, 17:01:19 »
Those whacky weapon mounts are caused by old TRO designers not actually knowing the rules they were designing for... The weapons are located in a different place than their arc - and apparently no one at FASA noticed that the rules don't actually allow this.

And then for some reason the designs weren't corrected in later publications.
Somehow that sits better than "FASA was a house of mad geniuses that understood the deep magic of the game, and all the WTF? designs are really hidden gems if know how to use them."
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #74 on: 06 November 2019, 17:10:32 »
Those whacky weapon mounts are caused by old TRO designers not actually knowing the rules they were designing for... The weapons are located in a different place than their arc - and apparently no one at FASA noticed that the rules don't actually allow this.

And then for some reason the designs weren't corrected in later publications.

that certainly explains the puma

Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #75 on: 06 November 2019, 17:26:10 »
IIRC the Puma fluff outright states the LRMs fire forward but are mounted on the sides. But there several others - Von Luckner, Peregrine, Galleon... I think the original Sturmfeur had one LRM body-mounted (huh?). We got the original Spad fighter with a fuselage-mounted laser. 3050 gave us fighters with rear wing weapons (has never been legal for fighters) and 3 times the rear weapons the rules allowed in general.

If you're playing on the tabletop the absolutely simplest way to handle it is extended side arcs - If you extended them to straight ahead side weapons are workable.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #76 on: 06 November 2019, 17:26:37 »
Didn't the Royal Puma 'fix' that in the fluff?
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #77 on: 06 November 2019, 21:58:54 »
Didn't the Royal Puma 'fix' that in the fluff?

If it did, it failed to fix it in the record sheet.

If you're playing on the tabletop the absolutely simplest way to handle it is extended side arcs - If you extended them to straight ahead side weapons are workable.

Pretty much.  Actually makes things like the Puma's LRMs useful.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #78 on: 07 November 2019, 00:21:15 »
Some units are indeed worse than others, but being unable to make an LRM rack useful is 100% a player issue.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #79 on: 07 November 2019, 01:06:33 »
Sticking 20 tons of a tank's firepower into highly restrictive firing arcs that don't offer any overlap with most of the tank's other weaponry and require you to turn one of your weaker faces to the enemy to use is a design flaw, not a player issue.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #80 on: 07 November 2019, 01:33:15 »
I thought they could fire through the single forward hex?  Or am I thinking of Tac Ops Vehicle Firing Arcs?

ASF Wing Arcs converge on the Front Row Hex IIRC but I have never heard of tanks doing that.

I thought they fired similar to mech Arm arcs.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #81 on: 07 November 2019, 08:35:17 »
IIRC the Puma fluff outright states the LRMs fire forward but are mounted on the sides. But there several others - Von Luckner, Peregrine, Galleon...

Yeah - the first time I fielded a Von Luckner in MegaMek, I forgot that the 'rear-mounted' LRMs didn't fire forward ... until the firing arcs were displayed. "About face!"
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #82 on: 07 November 2019, 10:14:46 »
Sticking 20 tons of a tank's firepower into highly restrictive firing arcs that don't offer any overlap with most of the tank's other weaponry and require you to turn one of your weaker faces to the enemy to use is a design flaw, not a player issue.

I'm not debating that the design is flawed. I'm debating the bit where you implied that the Puma's LRMs can't be useful. 'Useful' and 'Optimized' are NOT the same thing.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #83 on: 07 November 2019, 10:48:34 »
Of course they can be useful. But the usefulness is extremely limited, leaving you with an assault tank that is in practice not much more powerful than a medium tank.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #84 on: 07 November 2019, 11:13:31 »
It looks like I was wrong, AGAIN.  I thought TO's expanded arcs rule was the standard, but I just went back to TW and read the Vehicle firing arcs as well as page 104 of TW.  If I'm reading this right, then the TW vehicle arc rules are even more restrictive.  On the other hand, the TO expanded rules now put a lot of terrain that used to be Front Arc as now Side Arc, so those side weapons are becoming not just more useful but more important.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #85 on: 07 November 2019, 11:18:59 »
Of course they can be useful. But the usefulness is extremely limited, leaving you with an assault tank that is in practice not much more powerful than a medium tank.

Like I said, I wasn't debating wether the design was flawed. Just saying that limited usefulness is still usefulness. For example, having a Puma in your force means the peace of mind that comes from knowing enemy flankers will always be hindered by mines or have no woods to shelter in, or that your own units out there will always have smoke to take cover in or have fire support they can call down without drawing resources away from the fight at the front.
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grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #86 on: 07 November 2019, 12:17:38 »
Like I said, I wasn't debating wether the design was flawed. Just saying that limited usefulness is still usefulness. For example, having a Puma in your force means the peace of mind that comes from knowing enemy flankers will always be hindered by mines or have no woods to shelter in, or that your own units out there will always have smoke to take cover in or have fire support they can call down without drawing resources away from the fight at the front.
But using a Puma is drawing resources away from the fight.  Yes, the ability to throw a flight of LRMs out the side on demand can be damn handy, but for most of the battle you will be paying for 20 tons of launcher that you aren't using.  I normally advocate for using that kind of reserve capability to head-fake the other player but this time I'm going to come down on the other side. A lighter, turret mounted missile array would see much more use.

I'm going to call the Puma an "accident" that has some interesting applications.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #87 on: 07 November 2019, 12:35:04 »
I'm going to call the Puma an "accident" that has some interesting applications.

Agreed.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Col Toda

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #88 on: 08 November 2019, 11:35:05 »
The easiest  solution  is let the tanks take the offensive on not prepared ground . On the defensive on prepared  ground things get really ugly quickly . On prepared ground you think tanks are bad try trailers . Nearly  all offensive  BV . Give those tanks a field of rubble  to go through  and just have a squad stealth battle armor to spot and massed LRM 15 fire from trailers firing indirect from behind a hill.  Dead 4/6 tanks. Figure  3 enemy  tanks against 5 trailers  w 5 LRM 15s w 8 tons of Ammo each  and a squad of spotters .

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #89 on: 07 February 2020, 00:12:14 »
 One of the greatest uses of tanks is that of the double blind bluff. Recon is key.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #90 on: 20 March 2020, 00:04:25 »
One of the greatest uses of tanks is that of the double blind bluff. Recon is key.
  I agree. The "Fog of War" can be a force multiplier for players, or death. My main character was a scout and the GM ran strategic-level campaigns where teams spent a lot of time maneuvering while I specialized in hunter/killer efforts to "poke their eyes out" and knock out their scouting elements. Active Probes and ECM were worth more than their weight in gold.
  My GM was always entertained, and said it was like watching "Spy vs Spy" as players maneuvered under double blind conditions.

  I've played both Defender and OPFOR in the Luthien campaign, which the GM ran several players through, commanding their personal units. Despite their equipment, Clan forces lose air supremacy by day two, so enemy air assets can track your formations almost at will.

Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #91 on: 20 March 2020, 04:27:20 »
That sounds about right... As I recall, even FASA admitted the clan edge was much less in aero.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #92 on: 20 March 2020, 04:54:15 »
That sounds about right... As I recall, even FASA admitted the clan edge was much less in aero.
  The random pilot skill charts for Clan Aero and IS were very close, I believe.


Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #93 on: 20 March 2020, 14:58:36 »
And the technology edge was blunted in space too, just due to the environment.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #94 on: 20 March 2020, 17:35:50 »
And the technology edge was blunted in space too, just due to the environment.
  I've played Clans enough to realize that Omnifighters tended to be very short-winded and had low linger times. They were more for dueling as opposed to strike missions or CAP. Drop tanks were a must, as the IS players would avoid combat just to burn fuel. The good thing about Omnifighters is that I could configure them to drop Elementals behind enemy lines, which caused gratifying chaos under double blind conditions.

Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #95 on: 20 March 2020, 17:37:42 »
I'm sure it did!  :thumbsup:

truetanker

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #96 on: 20 March 2020, 17:40:56 »
I've used FASCAM A4 in single round salvos.

Makes a very nice surprise...

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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #97 on: 20 March 2020, 18:30:44 »
I've used FASCAM A4 in single round salvos.

Makes a very nice surprise...

TT
  The ultimate weakness of a static position is the vulnerability to indirect fire. There isn't much you can do if the enemy starts raining LRM fire, especially Infernos on a vehicle or infantry, and far worse when real artillery is deployed.

Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #98 on: 20 March 2020, 19:20:00 »
Heh.. in one campaign game, our GM threw us against a fixed position with LRMs.  We had a Vulcan.  Granted, we had to reload the thing like three times, but we didn't take any damage at all...  ^-^

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #99 on: 20 March 2020, 22:57:07 »
Heh.. in one campaign game, our GM threw us against a fixed position with LRMs.  We had a Vulcan.  Granted, we had to reload the thing like three times, but we didn't take any damage at all...  ^-^
  That's one reason why I usually play tested scenarios on MegaMek...Multiple times. I had no problem when the players were innovative.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #100 on: 21 March 2020, 14:03:11 »
And the technology edge was blunted in space too, just due to the environment.
The BoK trilogy pretty much implied that clan fighters were essentially Star League tech (XLFEs were not even legal on fighters at the time). The later canon designs eat IS fighers as snacks (well, as long as you avoid the crappier ones).

EDIT: In addition the AT1 damage systems made clan fighters a lot more vulnerable which evened the odds some more.

On topic: AC/2s and LRM5s to plink at vehicles at long range, or charge in with MLs and SRMs and trash the Vees quickly.
« Last Edit: 21 March 2020, 14:11:32 by Sabelkatten »

grimlock1

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #101 on: 01 April 2020, 11:28:14 »
  That's one reason why I usually play tested scenarios on MegaMek...Multiple times. I had no problem when the players were innovative.
But you're going to make them earn it?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #102 on: 07 April 2020, 17:05:19 »
But you're going to make them earn it?
  I design the scenario and present them with basic information. They are free to expand that information by using what skills and materials they have available, such as scouting operations, etc., in order to stack the deck, which is expected. In a city fight, my character tapped into the public traffic camera streams to track enemy movement. The system was hard wired so could not be jammed. When I played Clan OPFOR on Luthien, one of the players marched a lance of Assault 'Mechs into Basin Lake. I sent a point of Elementals configured for sensor ops to plant sensors every 500 meters along the shore and the player emerged near a small town, with a Star of Assault Omnis waiting...The player commanded two over-strengthed regiments and managed to get captured. I'll ask him if I could post the write-up in my fanfic but he's never been able to live it down... "It would have worked against anyone else." I took it as a compliment.

 

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