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Author Topic: build to a budget.  (Read 440 times)

Cannonshop

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build to a budget.
« on: 11 November 2019, 10:55:37 »
what I'm looking for:

the cheapest (c-bills) Warship you can create, that is still effective.  Ideally, it should be a 'chassis' with three basic variants:

Variant 1: a Carrier variant, designed to transport, launch, and recover fighters and small craft in large numbers as part of a fleet action.  This vessel will be working in concert with Fox class vessels and possibly cruisers.

Variant 2: a dedicated "Capital ship hunter" with extensive anti-fighter and anti-smallcraft secondary capability, this will be meant to serve as an escort vessel or in interdiction roles when operating in a fleet environment, also in concert with the Fox class.

Variant 3: A picket/Seige/Multirole design based on the same chassis as variants 1 and 2, this unit is meant to conduct 'utility player' roles ranging from deep penetration scouting missions to showing the flag, to conducting blockade or orbital bombardment duties.

Requirements: all three variants must share an engine and KF drive, as well as crew accomodations.  All three variants must have the same finished mass.  All three variants msut, in short, be as identical as possible in all ways save weapons fit.  this isn't an 'omni-ship' it's more of a 'cheaper than a fox through mass production', using economies of scale. all three must have sufficient fuel tankage/cargo space to operate for three to six months without visiting port.

A maximum of one docking collar is permitted.

Design Era: 3050 to 3065. Proposed launch dates for the first three are in 3057, with shakedown cruises in 3058 to 3059.

Quirks to include: Easily Repaired/Maintained.

Keep in mind: these are supposed to be on the smaller side-literally smaller than a Fox class Corvette, so 'average' performance is perfectly adequate so long as the variants are, in fact, capable in the roles they're to play.

Build locations: somewhere on the periphery-rim edge of the Lyran Commonwealth, preferably worlds that aren't known for already having extensive yards or a long history of Aerospace development.
I beats the Urbie to death with my CHARGER!!!

Daryk

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #1 on: 11 November 2019, 11:08:43 »
Can the docking collar be on only one variant?

Notsonoble

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #2 on: 11 November 2019, 16:01:06 »
After some fighting with MML (I've lost HMA), here's part 1 of my submission.
No fluff because I'm not sure your plan, but 3060s FC/LA might be willing to give up GR tech as part of the contract to build the ships. The biggest issue with Naval ACs being weight.

Jackal Carrier
Mass: 120,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3060
Mass: 120,000
Cost: 6,791,065,152 C-bills

Fuel: 4,444 tons (22,220)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: !TROView.NA!
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 468 [936]
Structural Integrity: 60
Equipped with lithium-fusion battery system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor: 144 tons improved ferro-aluminum armor
    Nose: 31
    Fore Sides: 27/27
    Aft Sides: 24/24
    Aft: 17

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (4)         1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (24)            6 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (7704.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    640 rounds of Gauss Rifle [IS] ammunition (80 tons),
    960 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (80 tons),
    8,000 rounds of Half Machine Gun ammunition (40 tons),
    80 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (2400 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (100 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 22
Crew:  19 officers, 50 enlisted/non-rated, 63 gunners, 68 bay personnel      

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (169 Heat)
1 Anti-Missile System (120 shots)            1    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
8 Gauss Rifle (80 shots)                     8   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   AC         
8 Large Pulse Laser                         80   7(72)   7(72)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
1 Machine Gun   (1000 shots)                 0    0(2)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
1 Barracuda Missile Launcher (10 shots)     10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
1 Naval Laser 45                            70   5(45)   5(45)   5(45)    5(45)   Capital Laser

FRS/FLS (199 Heat)
1 Anti-Missile System (120 shots)            1    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
8 Gauss Rifle (80 shots)                     8   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   AC         
1 Machine Gun   (1000 shots)                 0    0(2)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
1 Barracuda Missile Launcher (10 shots)     10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
2 Naval Laser 45                            140  9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Laser

RBS/LBS (199 Heat)
1 Anti-Missile System (120 shots)            1    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
8 Gauss Rifle (80 shots)                     8   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   AC         
1 Machine Gun   (1000 shots)                 0    0(2)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
1 Barracuda Missile Launcher (10 shots)     10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
2 Naval Laser 45                            140  9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Laser

ARS/ALS (199 Heat)
1 Anti-Missile System (120 shots)            1    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
8 Gauss Rifle (80 shots)                     8   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   AC         
1 Machine Gun   (1000 shots)                 0    0(2)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
1 Barracuda Missile Launcher (10 shots)     10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
2 Naval Laser 45                            140  9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Laser

Aft (169 Heat)
1 Anti-Missile System (120 shots)            1    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
8 Gauss Rifle (80 shots)                     8   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   AC         
8 Large Pulse Laser                         80   7(72)   7(72)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
1 Machine Gun   (1000 shots)                 0    0(2)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
1 Barracuda Missile Launcher (10 shots)     10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
1 Naval Laser 45                            70   5(45)   5(45)   5(45)    5(45)   Capital Laser
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Battle Value: 37,483
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-F



Modifications: Display heatsinks and ammo tonnage correctly.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2019, 16:07:35 by Notsonoble »
Quote
Self:  Meltrans are already culture shocked, except their response is to squeal like high school girls at a boy band concert and discharge energy weapons in random directions.
Weirdo: Sounds like the proper reaction to a Macross Cannon to me.
Quote from: Weirdo
And of course if even a single Constitution had shown up onscreen for even a single second, you would have been able to hear the mass squeeing from orbit.

Cannonshop

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #3 on: 11 November 2019, 21:43:05 »
Can the docking collar be on only one variant?

Drop collars are core structural, so if there is to be one on one variant, it will need to be on all variants.
I beats the Urbie to death with my CHARGER!!!

Daryk

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #4 on: 11 November 2019, 21:52:54 »
Rog... that makes the cost question much harder... I probably won't have a design up until next weekend at the earliest.

Smegish

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #5 on: 12 November 2019, 03:20:23 »
Well you wanted a Budget Escort, and while I could have added a LFB that shoots the cost WAY up. Instead with have a lovely little do-it-all escort from the budget conscious Allied Conglomerate of Military Engineering... (think about that acronym for a moment in you need to)

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Zerstorer
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $4,526,046,004.00
Magazine Cost: $10,200,000.00
BV2: 37,808

Mass: 200,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
10 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
20 Naval Laser 45
36 Laser Large
56 AMS (IS)
24 LRM 20 (IS)

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Zerstorer
Mass: 200,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 36,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 500.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (6 Integrity) 90,500.00
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 40.00
Structural Integrity: 60 12,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 1044(2088) Double 731.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 20000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 217.35
Armor: 276 pts Ferro-Carbide 240.00
Fore: 50
Fore-Left/Right: 46/46
Aft-Left/Right: 46/46
Aft: 42

Dropship Capacity: 0 0.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Escape Pods: 20 140.00
Life Boats: 20 140.00

Crew And Passengers:
23 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 230.00
62 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 434.00
46 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 322.00
102 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
50 Steerage Passengers 250.00

Bay #1 - Fighters (36) - 6 Doors
Bay #2 - Small Craft (6) - 1 Door
Bay #3 - Cargo (18567 Tons) - 1 Door
Small NCSS
Killer Whale Ammunition (150 Rounds) 7500 tons
AMS Ammunition (13440 Rounds) 1120 tons
LRM 20 Ammunition (1440 Rounds) 240 tons

Code: [Select]
Weapons Location Heat Damage Mass
2 Killer Whale Nose 40 80 (8-C) 300.00
2 NL 45 Nose 140 90 (9-C) 1,800.00
6 Laser Large Nose 48 48 (4.8-C) 30.00
7 AMS (IS) Nose 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50
4 LRM 20 (IS) Nose 24 48 (4.8-C) 40.00

2 NL 45 FR 140 90 (9-C) 1,800.00
6 Laser Large FR 48 48 (4.8-C) 30.00
7 AMS (IS) FR 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50
4 LRM 20 (IS) FR 24 48 (4.8-C) 40.00

2 NL 45 FL 140 90 (9-C) 1,800.00
6 Laser Large FL 48 48 (4.8-C) 30.00
7 AMS (IS) FL 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50
4 LRM 20 (IS) FL 24 48 (4.8-C) 40.00

4 Killer Whale LBS 80 160 (16-C) 600.00
4 NL 45 LBS 280 180 (18-C) 3,600.00
7 AMS (IS) LBS 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50

4 Killer Whale RBS 80 160 (16-C) 600.00
4 NL 45 RBS 280 180 (18-C) 3,600.00
7 AMS (IS) RBS 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50

2 NL 45 AR 140 90 (9-C) 1,800.00
6 Laser Large AR 48 48 (4.8-C) 30.00
7 AMS (IS) AR 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50
4 LRM 20 (IS) AR 24 48 (4.8-C) 40.00

2 NL 45 AL 140 90 (9-C) 1,800.00
6 Laser Large AL 48 48 (4.8-C) 30.00
7 AMS (IS) AL 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50
4 LRM 20 (IS) AL 24 48 (4.8-C) 40.00

2 NL 45 Aft 140 90 (9-C) 1,800.00
6 Laser Large Aft 48 48 (4.8-C) 30.00
7 AMS (IS) Aft 7 21 (2.1-C) 3.50
4 LRM 20 (IS) Aft 24 48 (4.8-C) 40.00

End up with 15 missiles per Killer Whale tube, 20 tons of AMS ammo per gun, and 20 tons LRM ammo per launcher.

And I argue that this ship could do a passable job at all three roles you had in mind, without the need for variants.

EDIT: forgot the Small NCSS for added early detection capabilities.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2019, 03:22:25 by Smegish »

Lagrange

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #6 on: 12 November 2019, 23:16:22 »
I like Smegish's approach and took it a bit further.

Code: [Select]
200K Warship Omni
Mass: 200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3055
Mass: 200,000
Battle Value: 44,276
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 5,028,416,000 C-bills

Fuel: 5,000 tons (25,000)
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 6
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 95

Armor
    Nose: 100
    Fore Sides: 84/84
    Aft Sides: 74/74
    Aft: 50

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (60)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (10)        2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (6218.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    3,840 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (320 tons),
    20 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (100 m)
Escape Pods: 25
Life Boats: 25
Crew:  21 officers, 82 enlisted/non-rated, 23 gunners, 170 bay personnel, 32 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    1 MASH Core Component
    1 Field Kitchen
    2 MASH Operation Theater
    1 Satellite Imager [Look-Down Radar]
    1 Satellite Imager [Hyperspectral Imager]
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Space Mine Dispenser
338.5 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (1,062 Heat)
12 Anti-Missile System                       12   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (960 shots)
70 ER PPC                                    1050 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)   0(0)   PPC         
FRS/FLS (180 Heat)
12 ER PPC                                    180  12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   PPC         
RBS/LBS (12 Heat)
12 Anti-Missile System                       12   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (960 shots)
ARS/ALS (180 Heat)
12 ER PPC                                    180  12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   PPC         
Aft (192 Heat)
1 Screen Launcher                            10   2(15)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (20 shots)
12 Anti-Missile System                       12   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (960 shots)
2 Naval Laser 55                             170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser

Carrier: 60 ASF + 10 smallcraft on a 5/8 chassis makes it able to unload the ASF and then escape before an enemy fighter swarm can reach it.  The deep fuel reserves means it can refuel all craft while the cargo makes it capable of resupply/repair/rearm. 

Ship-hunter: The nose ERPPC weapons bay is a serious threat at short(for warship) ranges.  In a fleet action, this ship can hold back a bit initially, and then it has the legs to rush in and inflict serious damage.    The Aft/Fore side batteries can kill most ASF/smallcraft with a single hit.   The smallcraft bays can provide boarding parties. 

Screen: The AMS battery means that it can eliminate an enormous amount of missiles.   The screen launcher means it can literally screen.

Other roles:
 picket: Large comm scanner suite means it will see things coming and going.  High speed means it can get to them.
 Siege/blockade: gravdeck + every bay personnel in a quarter + energy weapons means it can stay on station for a long time.  Space mine layer means it can make an actual blockade. 
 Deep penetration scouting: Large fuel reserves support deep space jumps.  Everyone in quarters means excellent endurance.   Large comm scanner suite provides excellent sensors.  The cargo reserve can keep the craft in good repair for a long time.
 Showing the flag: Very capable of long duration missions and has extra quarters.
 Orbital Bombardment: Aft NL55s + satellite imagers make it a capable orbital bombardment device.   2x NL 55s induce 110 points of damage on the shot from above table, which kills most ground units.

« Last Edit: 13 November 2019, 08:09:07 by Lagrange »

Daryk

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #7 on: 13 November 2019, 05:19:04 »
And all for only around $5B... nice!  8)

Notsonoble

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #8 on: 15 November 2019, 12:48:07 »
Well you wanted a Budget Escort, and while I could have added a LFB that shoots the cost WAY up. Instead with have a lovely little do-it-all escort from the budget conscious Allied Conglomerate of Military Engineering... (think about that acronym for a moment in you need to)

However one of the requirements of Variant B was joint ops with a Fox. Reducing the mobility of the fleet because only the biggest ship is equipped seems odd...
Quote
Self:  Meltrans are already culture shocked, except their response is to squeal like high school girls at a boy band concert and discharge energy weapons in random directions.
Weirdo: Sounds like the proper reaction to a Macross Cannon to me.
Quote from: Weirdo
And of course if even a single Constitution had shown up onscreen for even a single second, you would have been able to hear the mass squeeing from orbit.

Korzon77

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #9 on: 23 November 2019, 00:12:06 »
So, how do these designs do in the pocket warship era?  (and in general, how badly do pocket warships impact smaller "true" warships?)

Lagrange

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Re: build to a budget.
« Reply #10 on: 23 November 2019, 10:48:18 »
So, how do these designs do in the pocket warship era?  (and in general, how badly do pocket warships impact smaller "true" warships?)
Small cannon warships are often quite vulnerable to ASF carrier dropships as well as pocket warships. 

As far as the existing pocket warships, there are several ways to defeat them.  If the warship is faster (i.e. 5/8), it can typically maintain capital-long range and win without a scratch there.  This strategy works against Castrum, Conquistador, Excalibur, Leopard PWS, Mule PWS, Overlord A3, Tiamat, Union PWS, Vengeance-DC.

For the remainder, it's slugging match.  AMS cancels out the missile-heavy PWS designs and the armor on the warships is typically a bit heavier.   The Omni design has a hell-bay of ERPPCs which is designed to gut 1 dropship/turn.  On the other hand, PWS designs are often cheaper so it's reasonable to consider (say) a 4-to-1 fight.