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Author Topic: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core  (Read 7219 times)

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #60 on: 04 December 2019, 23:11:24 »
Not necessarily. House Stiener Sourcebooks mentions Rastaban Agricultural but not that they build IndustrialMechs. I can't find Ericksson-Agro in it or the Kurita House Book even though Verthandi was owned by both and had a agromech factory. We don't even have stats for the agromech that was made there.

It is quite possible its just parts. Then again they could be building a couple a year. We don't know because the book doesn't say. I did say I thought it could be up to the players. After all, we do have the planet Spencer with the Panhard Academy of Industrial Science, andits IndustrialMech Pilot Training facilities. If an unaffiliated Periphery planet can have a science academy with mech pilot training it isn't unreasonable to think that a planet with unspecified agricultural manufacturing couldn't build an agromech.
They don't mention Indutrial mechs because until the Helm Memeory core they were so rare that even Assualt mechs were more common. The Sorce books also only talk about major assets which industrial mechs do not fall under.

And the part you seem to be missing or ignoring is that any industrial mech factory that was in the AC would have been stripped by either the Capellans or the Taurians a long time ago. It is not up to the players at all. The book tells you exactly what they produce and nowhere is there anything that even hints at an industrial mech of any kind. And that planet with an Academy so what that means and proves nothing. Industrial mechs are easy to pilot they don't need much training at all.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #61 on: 04 December 2019, 23:42:21 »
Not even close to the target . . . outside of the post-Jihad Objective Raids series, which STILL avoided a lot of specifics, the writers go out of their way in materials to avoid saying anything is specifically produced at a location and avoid numbers.  Its not like the entry says 'the largest thing they make is a tractor, and only 100 of them a year.'

. . . the oligarchs, who collaborated to make
the Capellans wrongly believe the world was an economic
quagmire and its industry a lost cause. When those governors
departed, the world continued as before under the direct
control of the oligarchs. As the supplier of most of the
manufactured goods and technology to the region . . .


And under Mechdur-
. . . home to most of the major
manufacturing centers of the region, ranging
from consumer goods to ’Mech weaponry.
The planet features three different major
spaceports, one on each of its continents, as
well as a recharging station at the nadir jump
point of its star supported by a number of
space stations for travelers and merchants.


Pretty sure with a C/C/A/B/B rating it has the ability to produce IndiMechs that are more primitive than 'Mech weaponry.

Its not going to come out and say it, but if for your game you want Mechdur to build some 20-30t crappy IndiMech . . . then it can . . . if you do not want it to build one?  Well, it does not then.
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Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #62 on: 05 December 2019, 09:55:31 »
Industrial Mech factories use the same tech and materials that normal Battlemech factories use. And it is very established that those factories were stripped for the Battlemech factories. A C level technology rating is not high enough to rebuild any factory that might have existed in the AC. Not even the Great Houses or the major periphery powers can rebuild factories. So how would you expect the AC to do so with a lower technology base than any of those.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #63 on: 05 December 2019, 11:42:58 »
Industrial Mech factories use the same tech and materials that normal Battlemech factories use. And it is very established that those factories were stripped for the Battlemech factories. A C level technology rating is not high enough to rebuild any factory that might have existed in the AC. Not even the Great Houses or the major periphery powers can rebuild factories. So how would you expect the AC to do so with a lower technology base than any of those.

I hate the tech ratings, I always want to flip them with A being best and F being worse, my mental block on that strikes again I guess.

Uh no, commercial armor, cockpit, etc are not the same materials as go into battlemechs.  Its also a ICE using design so it avoids the big hurdle in maintaining let alone producing battlemechs.  Further, it was supposed by . . . glitter? . . . that it could merely be a assembly point mating up home grown components with any shipped in from neighbors.  The AC builds mech scale weapons and armor- which is more valuable than somewhere that produces commercial gyros or ICE engines for a House, yet those places are not sacked to be stripped.  Either their production is so minor, the Houses/TC do not know about it, or it is not deemed worth the expense (getting back to low production) to travel that far to take something.

You are also using old sources . . . current materials, as indicated earlier, have IndiMechs existing and being built all during the Succession Wars.  The Kell Hounds Ascendant books had them using ultras or Indis to supplement their mech forces.  TRO VA talks about how various models of IndiMechs- including Security designs- were in production during the Succession Wars which is supported by other products like TP Irian which covered the Inquisitor Mk II, and update of the original that was started in the SW.

The AC IndiMech at best would be all commercial grade components (ICE engine, cockpit, gyro, etc) with perhaps BM-spec armor.
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RifleMech

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #64 on: 06 December 2019, 15:18:42 »
There are Battlemechs being built by hand. There's no reason a planet with factories can't built and assemble an IndustrialMech. Especially not when they're already making BattleMech parts.

I would also question the planets tech rating. If the rating isn't high enough, how can it make Mech armor with is Tech Level D?

And yes, many IndustrialMechs and their factories were cannibalized for parts. However, that does not mean all were. Verthandi was still manufacturing Agromechs when the Gray Death Legion helped liberate the planet. And that's just one example. So there's no reason the AC couldn't be making AgroMechs of their own.

Unless there's an errata or something that says, "No, they can't." I'm going to believe that it's up the GM and players. If we want them to make AgroMechs, they can make AgroMechs. If not, they don't.

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #65 on: 06 December 2019, 15:58:10 »
The tech level is the https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Universal_Socio-Industrial_Index_Rating for a  Moderately advanced world. Not the technology availability rating.
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RifleMech

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #66 on: 06 December 2019, 16:14:34 »
Yes, and if they can mass produce some Tech Level D items there's no reason to think they would't have limited production of other items.

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #67 on: 06 December 2019, 17:59:09 »
Mech manufacturing is almost always mentioned in sourcebooks. So I highly doubt agromech. More likely conventional tractors, combines, tillers, harvesters, etc.
Vitally important to agriculture but much easier to build than mech of any kind.
Perhaps Primitive Agromech?
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Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #68 on: 07 December 2019, 01:06:23 »
No RilfeMech The C level is something completely different from the tech level of equipment. It is the overall level of each part of the planet's development relative to its population. A C level is a moderately advanced world that means they have access to most technology but nothing that would make them special. And considering that every world in the AC is a C level or a D level which is lower-tech world level that makes it highly unlikely that they managed to build a mech factory of any kind. If there were mech factories of any kind on any of the AC worlds then when the TC or CC left they would have stripped them for parts to repair other factories instead. Maybe the oligarchs managed to hide that they had a factory but since this was during the SW where the ability to build new factories didn't exist I find it unlikely to be the case. If there are damaged or shut down factories which is possible since a damaged factory would simply be left alone then the materials from any Cache that the AC gets would be a major factor in getting them running again. Since while the can't build new ones they can repair factories back to some level of operation even during the SW.
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RifleMech

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #69 on: 07 December 2019, 04:14:54 »
And yet they can manufacture mech weapons and armor which they shouldn't be able to with that rating. And again, if a BattleMech can be made by hand, why couldn't an IndustrialMech?

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #70 on: 07 December 2019, 08:10:24 »
If we're going to talk about what the USIIR levels mean, maybe we should actually quote the table, eh?

From Handbook: House Steiner, page 71:
Quote
UNIVERSAL SOCIO-INDUSTRIAL LEVEL REFERENCE TABLE

TECHNOLOGICAL SOPHISTICATION
Rating Description
A High-tech world. Advanced research centers and universities; best medical care; cutting-edge microelectronics industry
B Advanced world. Access to many new technologies; hosts universities; good medical care available (though lacking in most cutting-edge medical tech); basic microelectronics industry
C Moderately advanced world. Average local education and medical care; minimal microelectronics industry (must be imported for sale)
D Lower-tech world. Poor educational system; medical care equivalent to 21st-22nd century level; nonexistent microelectronics industry (except for possible isolated companies run by private concerns)
F Primitive world. Inhabitants live without dependence on technology; no advanced education; medical care equivalent to 20th century level (at best)

INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT
Rating Description
A Heavily industrialized. Capable of manufacturing any and all complex products
B Moderately industrialized. May produce a limited quantity and range of complex products
C Basic heavy industry. Equivalent to roughly 22nd century tech; fusion technology possible, but no complex products (including BattleMechs)
D Low industrialization. Roughly equivalent to mid-20th century level; fusion technology must be imported
F No industrialization

RAW MATERIAL DEPENDENCE
Rating Description
A Fully self-sufficient. System produces all needed raw materials and may export in large quantities
B Mostly self-sufficient. System produces all needed raw materials and may export a small surplus
C Self-sustaining. System produces some of its needed raw materials and imports the rest
D Dependent. System is poor in raw materials and must import most of its material needs
F Heavily dependent. System utterly reliant on imported materials to maintain industry and population

INDUSTRIAL OUTPUT
Rating Description
A High output. World has wide industrial and commercial base capable of exporting most of its output
B Good output. World’s industrial and commercial bases sufficient for modest product export
C Limited output. World has a small industrial base which limits exports; imported goods common
D Negligible output. World’s industrial base insufficient for major exports; reliant on imported goods
F No output. World must import most—if not all—of its heavy industrial and high-tech needs

AGRICULTURAL DEPENDENCE
Rating Description
A Breadbasket. Planetary agro industries meet all local needs and sustain a thriving export trade
B Abundant world. Rich agricultural environment sustains local needs and permits limited exports
C Modest agriculture. Most food locally produced, though some agricultural needs rely on imports
D Poor agriculture. Minimal agricultural output forces heavy reliance on off-world imports to sustain the local population
F “Barren” world. Agricultural output cannot sustain the local population without continuous off-world imports

It seems to me the debate is really about how "complex" industrial 'mechs are.  Personally, I'm good with them being "22nd century" tech short of battlemechs.  What I find most hilarious is that "fusion technology possible, but no complex products" is at Industrial Development level C.  Once you put fusion engines in the "not complex" bin (as the rules have), that opens up quite a bit.

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #71 on: 07 December 2019, 10:47:03 »
And yet they can manufacture mech weapons and armor which they shouldn't be able to with that rating. And again, if a BattleMech can be made by hand, why couldn't an IndustrialMech?
No they would be able to build those things with a rating of C that was the point. And building Battlemechs by hand where are you getting that from? They repair and salvage from parts but building one from scratch with the frame and all its components wouldn't be possible with a factory. And as for why if a Battlemech can be built by hand it is worth the time and effort because it is such a major force multiplier an industrialmech on the other hand is that great of a multiplier to justify the time and cost it would take. It is easier and cheaper to build normal machines and vehicles to do the job than an industrial Mech for a place like the AC. Especially if you do it by hand.
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Daryk

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #72 on: 07 December 2019, 10:54:02 »
That Rating C means they can build fusion engines.  I'm more than willing to go with Industrial 'Mechs being no more complex than that, especially since they can use ICEs.

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #73 on: 07 December 2019, 11:02:28 »
That Rating C means they can build fusion engines.  I'm more than willing to go with Industrial 'Mechs being no more complex than that, especially since they can use ICEs.
The issue is would they have any factories for any kind of mech? My entire argument is that since the Industrial Mech factory used a lot of the same equipment and technology as a battlemech factory that it would have been stripped for parts long ago. I also doubt that the AC has the knowledge needed to repair or rebuild a factory let alone build a new one. Which keeps getting ignored and never acknowledged every time I bring it up.
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Daryk

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #74 on: 07 December 2019, 11:06:34 »
I think you're assuming more similarity between the two kinds of 'mechs than the rules do.  I can't speak for anyone else though.

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #75 on: 07 December 2019, 11:37:51 »
I think you're assuming more similarity between the two kinds of 'mechs than the rules do.  I can't speak for anyone else though.
It is straight-up said that the industrial mech factories used similar technology and equipment as the battlemech factories. That is why industrial mechs are so rare until the Helm Memory Core is distributed. It even says that the factories were stripped to get battlemech factories running again. That is the lore of the Industrial mech I am not assuming anything. I am simply telling you what is the information that is given.
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Daryk

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #76 on: 07 December 2019, 11:44:29 »
Lore = fluff.  Rules > fluff...

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #77 on: 07 December 2019, 12:15:11 »
The factories using similar equipment does not mean they produce the same product. A bulldozer factory and a tank factory are going to have similar equipment, ie. hoist, welders, and tools.

There is also a huge difference in tolerances allowed and reliability expected.

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Daryk

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #78 on: 07 December 2019, 12:18:17 »
That too... If you look at the tables, microelectronics are called out specifically, and Industrials need far less of those than anything designed to fire weapons (if any, really). Again, fusion engines are explicitly within their capabilities.

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #79 on: 07 December 2019, 12:21:51 »
The factories using similar equipment does not mean they produce the same product. A bulldozer factory and a tank factory are going to have similar equipment, ie. hoist, welders, and tools.

There is also a huge difference in tolerances allowed and reliability expected.
I am not saying that they produce the same thing. I am saying that the equipment was stripped to be used at other factories. Since that is what happened to them in the first place. But they lost the ability to build any kind of mech factory. And you can change a bulldozer factory into a tank factory like they said either earlier in this thread or the Thread about weapons production in the AC thread.
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RifleMech

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #80 on: 07 December 2019, 13:20:34 »
I am not saying that they produce the same thing. I am saying that the equipment was stripped to be used at other factories. Since that is what happened to them in the first place. But they lost the ability to build any kind of mech factory. And you can change a bulldozer factory into a tank factory like they said either earlier in this thread or the Thread about weapons production in the AC thread.

I'm not talking a factory that can churn out hundreds a week. I'm talking built by hand. All you need for that is material, tools, lifts/hoists, and techs. A MechBay would make it even easier. Having parts imported would speed the process but even though you're not going to see large numbers being made. We're talking a handful or so a year tops.

Colt Ward

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #81 on: 07 December 2019, 18:56:28 »
It is straight-up said that the industrial mech factories used similar technology and equipment as the battlemech factories. That is why industrial mechs are so rare until the Helm Memory Core is distributed. It even says that the factories were stripped to get battlemech factories running again. That is the lore of the Industrial mech I am not assuming anything. I am simply telling you what is the information that is given.

Btw, by the provided tech levels I was thinking of them right lol.

IndiMechs are NOT rare though . . . filled one of the early books (GDL novel), we have TRO VA that describes ones that were existed or built through out the Succession Wars.

Ceres Metals is building the Guard Quad SecurityMech and in enough numbers to export to the DC by 3028.
Alshain/DC starts building the Pacifier in 3031
Coventry was building the CPK-19 since the Star League
Duran exports the Cattlemaster which was started in 3024
Terra produced the Carbine construction mech in 3028
Crosscut series of ForestryMechs, a new Demo model was introduced in 2910
The Buster LoaderMech had 20 different versions produced up till the 21st in 3060, from 15 onward no functional differences till 21
Dig King started in 2571 on Archenar and was produced with variants until replaced by the Dig Lord in 3057
Furillo developed and produced the Lugger SalvageMech before 3050
Scavenger SalvageMech that was built into the Succession Wars ended up armed at various times
and there are more . . .


No one is suggesting Mechdur is Defiance-under-the-Mountain.  What we are suggesting is that since they build- IN FACTORIES- mech spec armor and mech scale weaponry- btw their own armored vehicles too!- the components (myomer, ICE, commercial gyro, commercial armor, commercial structure, commercial cockpits) with maybe some being imported and then assemble them by hand (really just verbage for labor intensive) with some mechanization.  Its not the completely automated Valkyrie factory on New Avalon that churns out hundreds of light mechs a year during the timeframe.  Perhaps one or two a month, which is truly dependent upon the feeder production lines (commercial gyro, ICE engine, cockpit being the critical 3).

The simple reason the production site was never interrupted?  It was not worth the effort by the Houses or other neighbors.  If the IndiMechs are not built by any sort of automation, there is nothing worth taking.

'high tech' AC IndiMechs could have-
Std Internal Structure (used in the 4 vehicles they build)
Std/mech spec armor (clearly said to be produced, used in vehicles)
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Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #82 on: 07 December 2019, 21:45:05 »
And I never said that they were not building parts. I never even mentioned anything about their armor or weapons since that wasn't what I was referring to. The only place that should be able to build mechs is the Refit yards at the Capital since that is their job to put parts back together. Nor did I ever say that Industrial mechs were not in use or being built. I said that most of them and their factories (which cannot be rebuilt without the information from the Helm Memory Core) were cannibalized early on in the SWs. And they are rare even with some being built the number of factories left and in operation compared to battlemech factories is much lower. I also stand by my statement that building industrial mechs by hand is not worth the time, effort, or resources when you can use all of those to build normal industrial equipment and materials instead. Nothing any of you have said have changed that since you haven't given any reason so far why it would be worth it.
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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #83 on: 07 December 2019, 21:49:07 »
My point has been (and remains) that Industrial 'Mechs are no more complex than fusion engines, and thus their "Technological Sophistication" and "Industrial Development" levels support them having the ability to manufacture them.  Whether they do or not is entirely up to individual GMs.

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #84 on: 08 December 2019, 00:39:35 »
Some parts are can be made but not all of the parts. Some of the parts are similar to those used on battlemechs. That was why they were stripped and cannibalized during the early SW. While the tech would be primitive level for most of them still don't have the factories to build them. If we got the caches then the AC would be able to build most of them by increasing their level up to B.
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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #85 on: 08 December 2019, 03:56:18 »
What parts?  The ICE engine . . . the one they put in the 60t combat vehicle?  The standard internal structure . . . the one they put in the combat vehicle?  Commercial gyro might be the most complicated part we do not know they make, but nothing prevents them from being imported at need . . . and still, it does not need the tolerances Battlemechs require.

Your still trying to use early sources- even those had Indis produced and a different tech level- when current sources talk about it being a toss up of Indis being used for parts or being armed in desperation.  I gave you a short list of Indis that were produced before 3050, and some were created in the midst of the Succession Wars.

Your still talking about them having a facility like Hesperus or the Valkyrie factory . . . what we are suggesting is something closer to the Cronus factory (set up to build by hand from parts in the 3030s!) or later Bandersnatch- no or little automation but lots of bodies sweating with simple hoists & cranes.
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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #86 on: 08 December 2019, 08:27:51 »
I'm with Colt here... what parts of an Industrial 'Mech are more complex than a fusion engine?  ???

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #87 on: 08 December 2019, 15:48:48 »
You don't need the Helm Memory Core to build or modify a mech factory. A fully automated one, probably but not your average Mech Factory. A destroyed factory in the Outworlds Alliance was rebuilt and produced the Merlin BattleMech in 3010. The Hatcheman was built in 3023 and included completely brand new tech. The Helm Memory Core wasn't discovered until 3028.

Why build industrialmechs over regular vehicles? Why build battlemechs over tanks? Besides the coolness factor and this game is about mechs, mechs can go places vehicles can't. That allows them to work in areas vehicles can't. That makes more land profitable.

As for building by hand, you do it because you don't have a factory. You do it because nobody makes that part anymore. You do it because it'd attract less attention than a factory. You import parts as they'd attract less attention than whole mechs.



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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #88 on: 10 December 2019, 10:48:57 »
I see no obvious reason why some small company couldn't build a handful or less of Industrials per year, using a mix of low-end domestic parts and imported sub-assemblies.  They'd be a bit on the expensive side relative to their capabilities, but could operate in places and situations where conventional vehicles couldn't.  Basically, they'd be close to entirely hand-built, in miniscule numbers, and only economically practical for mining exotic and valuable raw materials, harvesting high-value specialty hardwoods, or loading cargo at major spaceports.  The limited market for such things means that production would never achieve significant volumes, at least until the information from the Helm memory core had plenty of time to disseminate and lower expenses for such specialized production (as in 20-30 years until the practical effects of the information even begin to reach the Periphery).

Whether someone considers the steep investment and low rate of return worthwhile is up to the GM in your campaign, but it's probably neither impossible nor likely.  For a random chance, I'd probably roll a D6 and if it comes up with a 5, there's some modest workshop hand-building 1D6 units per year; if a 6 comes up, there's a small factory assembling 2D6 annually from a mix of domestic and imported parts, exporting half the production to neighboring planets.  Anything more makes absolutely no economic sense.

Adventwolf

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Re: The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core
« Reply #89 on: 16 December 2019, 20:24:36 »
So I was talking with some guys in the quest we are in. And we came up to the topic of the mechs that the Argo and company would have in canon at the end. I am of the opinion that only the Highlander and Atlas II would be the only Assualt Mechs they would have since they are still only a company sized group in the periphery.

We are discussing the ability to make more of them and I have stated that it would be the work of decades to get the technology needed to do so. What do you all think is it possible?

This is a crossover by the way we are playing the Helgan Republic from after Millstone 3 that got chucked into Battletech right off the map of the Rimward frontier from the game about 50 LYs "south" of Portland.
Fun quest that need more people:

Skywalker For Senator (Star Wars) - Q, Star Wars: Beyond the Republic, We Stand Against the Stars (Gundam/Macross) Crossover, Mobile Suit Gundam: Divided Federation (Civ Quest), The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone Crossover, Star War Moff Quest: Lost in Space