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Author Topic: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update  (Read 2381 times)

Xotl

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Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« on: 26 November 2019, 01:01:45 »
Hello all.  Anyone here for a while is probably aware that people have long complained about the BV cost for improved Piloting Skill.  Piloting was only 5% per improvement in BV 1; BV 2 hiked it to 15% for most upgrades (dropping to 10% at the very high end, for Piloting Skills 2 and better).  This has made Clan MechWarriors, with their canon 3/4 pilots, particularly unhappy.  With the permission of The Powers That Be and the assistance of the Rules Team, I've errataed the chart (as found in TechManual p. 314 / 315 (depending on your printing) so that Piloting upgrades are now 10% (dropping to 6% for Piloting Skills 2 and better).  You'll see the change reflected in the upcoming Clan Invasion box set, and it's already live on the MUL thanks to Skyhigh.  It will also be in the next TM BV errata document, once I get that up to the site.

Lower Piloting costs affects most of the chart of course, but the values are largely unchanged otherwise (a few poor-Piloting, good-Gunnery values were adjusted slightly, to smooth out the new progression and standardize).  The absolute most extreme ends of the chart will see a 13.5% difference (anyone with Piloting 0), but the average change is about the 5% you'd expect.

Quick Excel chart attached to show you the before and after.  Please note that the mandate wasn't to change Gunnery costs, so while I don't mind if people feel the need to mention that Gunnery is badly costed, we're not looking to do anything there at this time: it's broadly stayed at "20%, 15% for the leap to Gunnery 0".  Feedback is useful, however.  Cheers.
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faithless

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #1 on: 26 November 2019, 04:31:57 »
Thanks Xotl.
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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #2 on: 26 November 2019, 05:34:28 »
Thanks, Xotl! Will this be rolled out into the MUL at some point?
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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #3 on: 26 November 2019, 06:08:59 »
and it's already live on the MUL thanks to Skyhigh. 

Colt Ward

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #4 on: 26 November 2019, 17:44:54 »
You mention piloting, does this also include the Anti-Mech skill of BA & Infantry since that replaces the 'Piloting' skill for Mechs, ASF & VTOL?

Now I need to recalculate for my Black Friday game, lol.
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Xotl

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #5 on: 26 November 2019, 18:49:15 »
Anything that uses that chart is recalculated: it's not mech-only.
« Last Edit: 26 November 2019, 19:19:23 by Xotl »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #6 on: 26 November 2019, 18:57:15 »
Thanks for the quick answer.
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Daryk

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #7 on: 26 November 2019, 19:28:50 »
Well, Weirdo will certainly be happy...  ^-^

Greatclub

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #8 on: 26 November 2019, 21:26:05 »
so will Lyrans who run heavy gauss. Their mandatory piloting upgrades weren't cheap

Insaniac99

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #9 on: 27 November 2019, 00:45:53 »
The nightly build of SSW is posted and includes these.  Thanks again Xotl.  In order to not distract from this important conversation (and because we don't watch this thread) please direct any SSW items to this post: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67174.0

TigerShark

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #10 on: 30 November 2019, 21:12:43 »
IMO, this is a step in the right direction, but still needs more taken off for Piloting to be anywhere near as useful as Gunnery. I've run an online campaign for two years with +10% for Piloting and people generally liked it better than +15%. However, people still shied away from voluntarily gaining levels for their pilots until it was lowered to the BV1 level of +5%, and without multiplication against Gunnery. (3/4 = +25% instead of +26%)

The only reason for it to have gone from +5% up to +15%, originally, was that physical combat no longer depended on a table, but on the skill itself. So kicking/punching needed an increased cost as you gained in Piloting skill. However, since BV2 already includes the 'Mech tonnage in the Offensive BV score, then multiplies it by a speed factor... You're already paying for physicals in the calculation.

Example: Berserker BRZ-A3 is 100 tons.

100 (tons) * 1.37 (Offensive Speed Factor) = 137 BV for physical combat at 4/5

The +5%, in my opinion, was already sufficient to account for the increase in accuracy for kicks and punches, as well as the "not falling down" skill. Nobody knew that at the time, however, since physicals had never before in the game's history been affected by Piloting skill. We now know that Piloting is severely over-valued, and especially so at +15%. People will certainly appreciate the 5% drop, but as it's still multiplied against the Gunnery skill (for whatever reason? -- I can't wrap my head around that), you're still overpaying for a skill that's been double-dipped during the BV calculation.

I'm hoping that it'll drop again someday. I know that after 2 more years of play testing with the BV1 table, the +5% cost for Piloting levels has not unbalanced our games in any way. People actually volunteer to level pilots, which is eye-opening after so many years of hearing gripes and grumbles when being forced to play with anything better than a 3/5. :)
« Last Edit: 30 November 2019, 21:18:55 by TigerShark »
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I am Belch II

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #11 on: 01 December 2019, 05:55:55 »
Thats a different idea...hope its more balanced.
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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #12 on: 01 December 2019, 21:08:58 »
HALLELUJAH!

That price increase was so bad.

It made some sense with the rules change in TW....... FOR MECHS.   (And even then should have been lower than 15%)

But for the rest of the vehicle types it made very little sense.




That said as TigerShark mentioned, the multiplier was also an add on for BV2 that was horrible IMHO.

Facing identical mech duos with skills of 3/4 & 4/5  v/s  3/5 & 4/4  shouldn't be a different BV. 
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TigerShark

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #13 on: 01 December 2019, 21:28:52 »
That said as TigerShark mentioned, the multiplier was also an add on for BV2 that was horrible IMHO.

Facing identical mech duos with skills of 3/4 & 4/5  v/s  3/5 & 4/4  shouldn't be a different BV.
It's still being multiplied. Check the chart. :-\ So a 3/4 isn't 130% of BV; it's 132%. The 3/4 is still getting a penalty of 2% for no reason.
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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #14 on: 01 December 2019, 21:36:24 »
I know it is, that's why I said it shouldn't be different.

It should work like the old BV1 method of adding them, not multiplying them.
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TigerShark

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #15 on: 01 December 2019, 22:04:52 »
I know it is, that's why I said it shouldn't be different.

It should work like the old BV1 method of adding them, not multiplying them.
The old BV1 table was perfect, frankly. Not much needed beyond that.
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Greatclub

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #16 on: 01 December 2019, 22:13:03 »
I'm good with them being multiplied. It discourages forces made of identical Kai clones.

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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #17 on: 01 December 2019, 22:17:54 »
I'm good with them being multiplied. It discourages forces made of identical Kai clones.
Some are, some aren't. But it creates the opposite: A bunch of 2/5, 3/5, etc. pilots without levels in Piloting. Or, conversely, melee-oriented units (4/2, 4/1) without levels in Gunnery.
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Re: Piloting & Gunnery BV Modifier Official Update
« Reply #18 on: 03 December 2019, 06:29:45 »
Please note, this is an official update to the Battletech rules. As always, house rules are not to be discussed in this thread (or section). House rules have been moved to the Fan Rules section.
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