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Author Topic: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)  (Read 3679 times)

Daryk

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Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« on: 30 November 2019, 12:06:18 »
I've been working on ways to mount infantry support weapons on 'mechs and combat vehicles for a while now, and think I finally have something workable.  In general, no RWS should be superior to an existing "heavy" weapon, with the exception of being able to fire at 0-hex range.  I'll make tweaks here in the first post as people point out issues.

Code: [Select]
Remote Weapon Stations Tech TL TW Wt. Crits Cost
Light (<100 kg weapons) IS/Clan (C) 0.25 1 2,000
Medium (100-200 kg weapons) IS/Clan (C) 0.5 1 3,500
Heavy (201-400 kg weapons) IS/Clan (C) 1 2 5,000

Up to three identical energy Infantry Support weapons may be installed in a Light RWS as long as the weight does not exceed 99 kg.  Weapons with ammunition may only by twin mounted.  Larger RWS only accommodate twin mounts regardless of weapon type.

Ballistic Weapons multiply their base mass by 4 for ammunition handling equipment.
Grenade Launchers multiply their base mass by 8.
Missile Launchers multiply their base mass by 12.
Weapons with ammunition must allocate weight and critical spaces for it separately.
Energy weapon installations with a short range greater than 3, or TW damage greater than 1 generate 2 heat.  All others generate 1.

All RWS may fire at 0-hex range with a +1 penalty.  Infantry weapons with a 0-hex base range cancel this penalty.
Incendiary weapons may choose to inflict heat instead of damage as normal.
Heavy Burst weapons inflict 1d6 of Anti-Infantry damage per barrel in the mount.

Mounting or dismounting an infantry weapon in an RWS is a Class A Refit per weapon (not mount).
« Last Edit: 07 December 2019, 12:13:54 by Daryk »

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #1 on: 30 November 2019, 12:12:43 »
Here are some sample mounts I worked through in developing the above.

Code: [Select]
Name (IS Lasers) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Support Laser (Semi-Portable) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 3 0.61 40 kg/3 kg 21 2 3 1 1 0.25 2 2
Support Laser IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 3 0.84 72 kg/3 kg 15 2 3 2 2 0.5 2 2
Support Pulse Laser IS/Clan (E) Medium/Support (E)B 3 0.81 150 kg/3 kg (21/4) 2 3 1 1 0.5 1d6 1
Support Laser (ER, IS) IS (E) Medium/Support (E) 4 0.84 110 kg/3 kg 10 2 4 1 2 0.5 1 1
Support Pulse Laser (Heavy) IS/Clan (E) Medium/Support (E)B 4 0.98 300 kg/3 kg (18/3) 4 4 1 2 1 1d6 1
Support Laser (Heavy) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 5 1.47 300 kg/3 kg 7 3 5 1 2 1 1 1
Support Laser (ER Heavy, IS) IS (E) Medium/Support (E) 6 1.05 250 kg/3 kg 7 4 6 1 2 1 1 1

Name (Clan Lasers) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Port) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 2 0.55 40 kg/3 kg (25/2) 2 2 1 1 0.25 2 2
Support Laser (ER, Semi-Port) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 3 0.7 25 kg/3 kg 15 2 3 2 2 0.25 3 3
Support Laser (Hvy, Semi-Port) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 3 1.05 150 kg/3 kg 10 3 3 1 1 0.5 1 1
Support Laser (ER, Clan) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 4 1.05 100 kg/3 kg 10 2 4 1 2 0.5 1 1
Support Laser (Ultra-Heavy) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 5 1.72 250 kg/3 kg 5 4 5 2 2 1 1 1
Support Laser (ER Heavy, Clan) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 7 1.26 240 kg/3 kg 7 3 7 1 2 1 1 1

Name (PPCs) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Particle Cannon (Semi-Portable) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 2 0.72 40 kg/3 kg 25 2 2 1 1 0.25 1 1
Particle Cannon (Support) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 3 1.58 1,800 kg/25 kg* 5 3 2 2 1 1 1
* The Support Particle Cannon is weighted as a vehicle in Tech Manual.  Reverse engineering, I estimated a weight of 400 kg for the weapon itself.

Name (Flamers) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Flamer (Man Portable) IS/Clan (C) Medium/Support (E)F 0 0.55 15 kg/8.4 kg 12 1E 0 1 1 0.25 1 1
Flamer (Heavy) IS/Clan (C) Medium/Support (E)F 0 0.79 25 kg/2.9 kg 3 2 0 2 2 0.5 2 2
Needler, Support (Firedrake) IS (D) Medium/Support (B)F 1 1.2 25 kg/ 3 kg (30/3) 2 1 1 1 0.5 1 1
« Last Edit: 01 December 2019, 19:11:36 by Daryk »

idea weenie

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #2 on: 30 November 2019, 14:13:56 »
The key weakness with these remote weapons is the demand for critical space.

For ammunition-based weapon, I'd be tempted to give them 1 load of weaponry inherently, so it doesn't need crit space for that.  So each of the weapons for the Inner Sphere get the listed shots 'free' to represent an existing battery pack connected to them  (or an on-mount weapons box).  For energy weapons using only a 3 kg battery pack, you might see multiple battery packs linked together (or larger Power Packs since the Mech can carry them much easier).

Would that battery pack be able to charge from the Mech's reactor?  This way it only uses power from the battery pack when the Mech is shut down (and once the reactor is back online, the battery recharges easily).  That could be a primary use for these weapons, a basic anti-infantry defense when the Mech is overheated and shut down.

Would a shot from each of these if it hits internal structure, be enough to roll for a critical?  You might see a light Mech with a few of these weapons used for crit-seeking instead of damage.

But overall, none of these weapons are a match for existing Inner Sphere 3025 weaponry.  I put your chart below, and added the Inner Sphere 3025 Small Laser, Medium Laser, Machine Gun, and Flamer for comparison

Sample mounts:

Code: [Select]
Name (IS Lasers) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Small Laser                     IS/Clan (D)     Mech                    3       3        500 kg/-       N/A     1       3       3       1       0.5     ?       1  (Forgot the AI damage for ISSL)
Medium Laser                    IS/Clan (D)     Mech                    9       5       1000 kg/-       N/A     1       9       5       3       1       ?       1  (Forgot the AI damage for ISML)
Machine Gun                     IS/Clan (D)     Mech                    3       2        500 kg/5 kg    N/A     1       3       2       0       0.5     ?       1  (Forgot the AI damage for ISMG)
Flamer                          IS/Clan (D)     Mech                    3       2        500 kg/-       N/A     1       3       2       0       0.5     ?       1  (Forgot the AI damage for ISFlamer)
Support Laser (Semi-Portable) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 3 0.61      40 kg/3 kg 21 2 2 1 1 0.25 1 2
Support Laser IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 3 0.84 72 kg/3 kg 15 2 2 2 2 0.5 1 2
Support Pulse Laser IS/Clan (E) Medium/Support (E)B 3 0.81 150 kg/3 kg (21/4) 2 3 1 1 0.5 1d6 1
Support Laser (ER, IS) IS (E) Medium/Support (E) 4 0.84 110 kg/3 kg 10 2 4 1 2 0.5 1 1
Support Pulse Laser (Heavy) IS/Clan (E) Medium/Support (E)B 4 0.98 300 kg/3 kg (18/3) 4 4 1 2 1 1d6 1
Support Laser (Heavy) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 5 1.47 300 kg/3 kg 7 3 5 1 2 1 1 1
Support Laser (ER Heavy, IS) IS (E) Medium/Support (E) 6 1.05 250 kg/3 kg 7 4 6 1 2 1 1 1

Name (Clan Lasers) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Port) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 2 0.55 40 kg/3 kg (25/2) 2 2 1 1 0.25 1 2
Support Laser (ER, Semi-Port) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 3 0.7 25 kg/3 kg 15 2 2 2 2 0.25 1 3
Support Laser (Hvy, Semi-Port) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 3 1.05 150 kg/3 kg 10 3 3 1 1 0.5 1 1
Support Laser (ER, Clan) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 4 1.05 100 kg/3 kg 10 2 4 1 2 0.5 1 1
Support Laser (Ultra-Heavy) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 5 1.72 250 kg/3 kg 5 4 5 2 2 1 1 1
Support Laser (ER Heavy, Clan) Clan (F) Medium/Support (E) 7 1.26 240 kg/3 kg 7 3 7 1 2 1 1 1

Name (PPCs) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Particle Cannon (Semi-Portable) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 2 0.72 40 kg/3 kg 25 2 2 1 1 0.25 1 1
Particle Cannon (Support) IS/Clan (D) Medium/Support (E) 3 1.58 1,800 kg/25 kg* 5 3 2 2 1 1 1
* The Support Particle Cannon is weighted as a vehicle in Tech Manual.  Reverse engineering, I estimated a weight of 400 kg for the weapon itself.

Name (Flamers) Tech TL Type       Range Dmg Wt/Reload Shots C    TW Range TW Dmg TW Heat TW Wt. AI Dmg Barrels
Flamer (Man Portable) IS/Clan (C) Medium/Support (E)F 0 0.55 15 kg/8.4 kg 12 1E 0 1 1 0.25 1 1
Flamer (Heavy) IS/Clan (C) Medium/Support (E)F 0 0.79 25 kg/2.9 kg 3 2 0 2 2 0.5 2 2
Needler, Support (Firedrake) IS (D) Medium/Support (B)F 1 1.2 25 kg/ 3 kg (30/3) 2 1 1 1 0.5 1 1

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #3 on: 30 November 2019, 14:23:49 »
As I stated up front, the idea was to ensure that none of them would match an existing heavy weapon, and that's why they're so crit intensive.  I assumed the energy weapons were entirely powered from the unit's engine.  The only benefit I was looking to grant with these was the ability to fire something at 0-hex range.

CrossfirePilot

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #4 on: 30 November 2019, 16:04:08 »
Makes me think about the Ma Deuce mounted for the commander on a tank.  I can just see a Locust pilot opening up his top hatch, doing the double charge and starting to chatter away with it.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #5 on: 30 November 2019, 16:21:51 »
I think that would be a pintle mount... an RWS can be operated from the cockpit.

As far as Idea Weenie's concern about piling on the crit seekers, you're really only looking at very short range weapons for that.  The 0.25-ton RWSs only range 2/4/6 at best.

CrossfirePilot

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #6 on: 30 November 2019, 16:41:08 »
I guess I was thinking even lower tech. Something that a MechWarrior came across and extra .50 somewhere and thought "ya know I should really just mount this on a simple tripod next to the cockpit hatch, just in case..."

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #7 on: 30 November 2019, 16:57:08 »
That sounds good, and honestly, the Support Machine Gun IS the Ma-Deuce as far as I can tell.  Have you seen my Machine Guns thread?

dgorsman

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #8 on: 30 November 2019, 21:13:46 »
Especially for anti-armor focused designs, like the Lament, giving them some local protection from infantry.  Which by that point can be decidedly nasty.
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RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #9 on: 01 December 2019, 08:30:59 »
Daryk

I like the idea. It reminds me of the Multiple Mounting Rules from XTRO:1945. I'm not sure about multiplying the weapons weight though. The weight isn't multiplied when infantry weapons are mounted in small vehicles. I'm not sure why they'd be in mechs. They get one ammo load free. Any other loads are added to the weapons weight. The range for also remains the same for that of the infantry weapon.
So a Support Laser with 10 reloads (150 shots) would weight 99 kg. The range would be 9 with a damage rounded up to 1 point. I kind of like that more. Adding in the 1945 rules one could have a Quad Mount of Support Lasers taking 1 crit and weighting .5 tons. One thing it doesn't do that yours does it the heat. Infantry weapons don't generate heat on small vehicles. That could be explained away as Mechs being more compartmentalized so the heat would build up and need to be disputed. That'd end up being 4 heat for a Quad Support Lasers.



Makes me think about the Ma Deuce mounted for the commander on a tank.  I can just see a Locust pilot opening up his top hatch, doing the double charge and starting to chatter away with it.

Reminds me of a mechwarrior entry in Cranston Snord's Irregulars. During one battle his Locust overheated so he stood up in the cockpit and fired every hand weapon he had, emptying clips and battery packs.




Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #10 on: 01 December 2019, 09:15:48 »
RifleMech,
    Thanks for pointing out the XTRO: 1945 rules... I had overlooked them.  That said, I'm trying to avoid making these things too attractive (and I have to say, your quad laser mount at 0.5 ton would be FAR more attractive than a Small Laser, especially since it would have 2/4/6 range).  The only motivation for the multiple barrel installs in my rules was to generate distinction between the various mounts, and in some cases, get the damage up to 1 point (and speaking of which, I see I need to tweak some of the AI damage in the posted tables).  Again, the energy weapons are simply powered by the unit's engine, and ammunition should be easily handled with Fractional Accounting.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #11 on: 01 December 2019, 12:53:39 »
RifleMech,
    Thanks for pointing out the XTRO: 1945 rules... I had overlooked them.  That said, I'm trying to avoid making these things too attractive (and I have to say, your quad laser mount at 0.5 ton would be FAR more attractive than a Small Laser, especially since it would have 2/4/6 range).  The only motivation for the multiple barrel installs in my rules was to generate distinction between the various mounts, and in some cases, get the damage up to 1 point (and speaking of which, I see I need to tweak some of the AI damage in the posted tables).  Again, the energy weapons are simply powered by the unit's engine, and ammunition should be easily handled with Fractional Accounting.

You're very welcome. :)  I don't think that a Quad Mount would be overly attractive over a Small Laser. XTRO:1945 rule would have the weapons in a multiple mount either fire individually, or roll on a cluster hit chart. Plus if we add heat back in a Quad Mount of Support Lasers would generate 4 heat. Small Laser only generates 1. So its got 4 times the heat for possibly 1 more point of damage at 3/6/9 range. Could be better off with a medium laser.

I'm kind of conflicted about the energy weapons being hooked up to the engine. That would require a power amplifier for lower tech engine types. In a way it makes sense. No problem there. It's just that they change more over other infantry weapons. They're kind of like chemical lasers in that they require ammo and now they're ammo free. I'm not sure about that. Seems like too much of an advantage.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #12 on: 01 December 2019, 13:22:32 »
Which laser are you looking at again? Support Lasers have 2/4/6 range...

Idea Weenie was the one who pointed out crit seeking as an advantage of multiple weapons, and from that perspective, I agree that would make them more attractive, even for 4 heat.  Hence my limit of 3 for light mounts, 2 for heavier ones, and weight multiplication for ballistic, grenade and missile weapons.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #13 on: 01 December 2019, 16:58:47 »
Which laser are you looking at again? Support Lasers have 2/4/6 range...

Idea Weenie was the one who pointed out crit seeking as an advantage of multiple weapons, and from that perspective, I agree that would make them more attractive, even for 4 heat.  Hence my limit of 3 for light mounts, 2 for heavier ones, and weight multiplication for ballistic, grenade and missile weapons.

The Support Laser has a Base Range of 3. Which works out to 3/6/9 on the board.

I suppose crit seeking could be seen as an advantage. I'd rather get through the armor but crits are good.

If going by limits I'd limit multiples to under .25 tons or you're there's no reason to take Clan Machine Guns in terms of crits. And you lost me about the weight. The first post you have weight multiplied for an ammo feed system. That would make a single Support Machine Gun weigh 176 kg. That'd make a triple mount weigh 528 kg. And you'd still have to add ammo. And all weapons should have an ammo feed system. For energy weapons that'd be all the power cables and such. Are you changing the weight now?

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #14 on: 01 December 2019, 18:57:04 »
I just did a double take when I looked at my Tech Manual reprint... it seems most of the lasers that had 2/4/6 range now have 3/6/9 instead!  I'll edit my table accordingly once I catch up on reading.

The intent of the rules as I set them up was that Support Machine Guns (for example) would never be more than double (only the lightest weapons can triple up under 100 kg).

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #15 on: 01 December 2019, 19:12:14 »
Ok, I think I got all the ranges fixed... and I'll eventually post up the Machine Gun mounts once I get that thread squared away...

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #16 on: 02 December 2019, 00:30:37 »
I just did a double take when I looked at my Tech Manual reprint... it seems most of the lasers that had 2/4/6 range now have 3/6/9 instead!  I'll edit my table accordingly once I catch up on reading.

The intent of the rules as I set them up was that Support Machine Guns (for example) would never be more than double (only the lightest weapons can triple up under 100 kg).

I didn't know that they'd changed.

That's cool but if you multiply the weight of the weapon, for the ammo feed system, you take away mounting multiples for most weapons.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #17 on: 02 December 2019, 05:28:21 »
Yes, exactly... that's as intended to avoid obsoleting any existing heavy weapons.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #18 on: 02 December 2019, 09:23:13 »
Yes, exactly... that's as intended to avoid obsoleting any existing heavy weapons.

To be under your weight limit of 99 kg the three ballistic weapons could weigh no more than 8.25 kg each.
8.25 kg x 4 = 33 kg x 3 = 99 kg
After a quick look I only see 8 Support weapons that fit that weight and only 3 of them would damage armor. And that's with everything being multiplied by 4. You could only mount two Grenade Launchers as three would weigh 120 kg with the 8 times weight increase.
The Lightest missile is the VLAW at a 2.2 kg, and with a 12 times weight increase  26.4 its the only one that can be triple mounted. And even then they'd do no damage at .48 damage.
Where do Mortars and Recoilless Rifles fit in? And why no weight increase for Energy Weapons?

I do like the idea but I'm not seeing how it works and its biased towards energy weapons.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2019, 09:24:59 by RifleMech »

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #19 on: 02 December 2019, 18:11:30 »
It's biased toward energy weapons because fusion engines are.  And I'm deliberately trying to keep the damage down, hence the multipliers for the ridiculously light weapons that somehow qualify as "Support" (there are Standard weapons that are heavier, and I've excluded them deliberately too).

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #20 on: 02 December 2019, 18:29:09 »

I always considered support weapons (especially the lasers) to be meant as fractions of heavy weapons (around 1/6th).
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Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #21 on: 02 December 2019, 18:59:42 »
The Support Machine Gun is pretty much exactly an IS Light Machine Gun, and with my weight multiplication rule, weighs the same (0.5 ton). The only thing setting it up as an RWS instead gets you is the ability to fire it at 0-hex range.  If I've done it right, it costs a little bit more when you factor in the Class A Refit man-hours.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #22 on: 03 December 2019, 06:06:55 »
It's biased toward energy weapons because fusion engines are.  And I'm deliberately trying to keep the damage down, hence the multipliers for the ridiculously light weapons that somehow qualify as "Support" (there are Standard weapons that are heavier, and I've excluded them deliberately too).

Fusion engines do give unlimited ammo, the thing is you're still going to have to have power cables and adapters and such in order to plug the energy weapons into the fusion engine. And those are on top of the mounting brackets and coolant lines. All those should weigh the same as the mounting brackets and ammo feed mechanisms. And the easiest way to have them it to just round up the weight of the weapon to the nearest .5 tons. Maybe .25 tons which is going to get rounded up eventually.

As for damage the best the infantry weapons will do is 2 points of damage. That might make the best infantry weapons compatible with Clan Micro Lasers and Machine guns. Which makes sense considering their development.  And those happen to be energy weapons. The heaviest of which, if ammo or mounting equipment weight is included is going to round up to .5 tons which is double the Micro-Laser and MG weight.

The Support Machine Gun is pretty much exactly an IS Light Machine Gun, and with my weight multiplication rule, weighs the same (0.5 ton). The only thing setting it up as an RWS instead gets you is the ability to fire it at 0-hex range.  If I've done it right, it costs a little bit more when you factor in the Class A Refit man-hours.

If we're going to go with what infantry weapons are without mounting brackets and feed mechanisms and such then we should look at the Combat Equipment rules on page 110.

I think if you want to make it so even if infantry weapons don't eclipse vehicle scale  have them keep the same range modifiers or reduce them some. Fluff it as they the weapons being too small to accurately tie into the units targeting system or something.

Something like, no FCS the modifiers stay the same so a weapon with a base range of 3 would have a -4 target modifier at range 9. A basic FCS would have a modifier of -3 and a full FCS would have a modifier of -2. That would ensure that infantry weapons don't eclipse vehicle scale ones.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #23 on: 03 December 2019, 18:25:26 »
The problem I see with the Combat Equipment rules is that they rely on a table vice a rule for conversion.

I generally feel the energy weapons are "heavy enough" as is, and the machine guns, grenade launchers and missile launchers aren't.

As far as damage and range, the Tech Manual infantry weapons table is underpinned by the conversion rules on page 171 of the AToW Companion (with a notable exception or two), and that's what I'm trying to stick to.

And I forgot to mention: the RWS mounted Support Machine Gun would not be able to rapid fire like a "heavy" Light Machine Gun.  I think the ability to shoot at 0-hex range is a fair trade for that.

I'm really not sure where you're coming from with the penalties to hit at 9-hex range being less than -4... ???

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #24 on: 04 December 2019, 01:38:36 »
The problem I see with the Combat Equipment rules is that they rely on a table vice a rule for conversion.

I think there's also some fluff in those rules as according to the fluff some BA and Vehicle Scale weapons are Infantry weapons with mounting brackets and stuff.

It's also a flat weight. It's weapon and mounting equals .5 tons.

Quote
I generally feel the energy weapons are "heavy enough" as is, and the machine guns, grenade launchers and missile launchers aren't.

I'd have to disagree and by not giving them any "added" weight you simply cause a bias toward energy weapons being used. Your rules already give them free ammo. They don't need anything else free. Who'd use a Machine Gun when they could double mount a Support Laser?


Quote
As far as damage and range, the Tech Manual infantry weapons table is underpinned by the conversion rules on page 171 of the AToW Companion (with a notable exception or two), and that's what I'm trying to stick to.

I don't know what you mean by underpinned. I do know though that TW and AToW are often at odds. The Range for a Support Machine Gun in TW is 6. Using AToW conversions is 9.

Quote
And I forgot to mention: the RWS mounted Support Machine Gun would not be able to rapid fire like a "heavy" Light Machine Gun.  I think the ability to shoot at 0-hex range is a fair trade for that.

Works for me.


Quote
I'm really not sure where you're coming from with the penalties to hit at 9-hex range being less than -4... ???

I'm looking at the table in TM page 149. Infantry don't have the targeting systems vehicles and mechs can have. If you want the infantry weapons to be worse than vehicle versions you could give them a to hit penalty based on the type of FCS installed. -4 was with no FCS, -3 with Basic, and -2 with advanced.
You could also have energy weapons require ammo. Think about it. The Support Laser, with AToW rage would hit at 11 hexes compared to the ER Micro-Laser's TW range of 4. Multiple mount the Support laser with unlimited ammo and who'd use the ER Micro-Laser?

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #25 on: 04 December 2019, 05:48:05 »
The conversion rules for range from the Companion only take into account Short range from AToW.  It's why the Support Laser is 3/6/9, not 11.

As far as the ER Micro Laser vs. dual mounting two Support Lasers: 2 Support Lasers would require a 0.5 ton RWS and generate 2 heat while the ER Micro Laser is only 0.25 ton and generates 1.

Dual mount Support Lasers would also only do 2 Anti-Infantry damage, vice the Support MG's 1d6.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #26 on: 06 December 2019, 16:10:46 »
Short range divided by 30 rounding normally. That comes up to 11 for the Support Laser.

So the Dual Support lasers weigh .5 tons and generate 2 heat. They still can do the same damage as the ER Micro-Laser, with crit seeking. Plus they have nearly twice the range of the same weight ER Small Laser.

As for the Support Machine Guns. A Dual mounted Support MG  do 1 point of damage, +1D6 against infantry each. The Machine Gun just does 1D6 damage against Infantry. Both weigh .5 tons. They also have crit seeking against vehicle scale targets. That makes them far more effective against infantry than the vehicle machine gun.

For the less tonnage (no ammo) I could take a Dual Support Pulse Laser, have greater range (Base 3 instead of Base 2), and do 2D6 each against infantry.


I can see why TPTB decided not to allow Infantry Weapons on medium and larger vehicles. That said, I still like the idea. When I read about people strapping weapons onto an IndustrialMech, I picture Infantry weapons. I also picture XTRO:1945 when it comes to aircraft. So I want to mount small weapons on larger units, especially when some vehicle scale items weigh less than some support weapons.

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #27 on: 06 December 2019, 18:05:02 »
With the weight multiplier, Dual Support Machine Guns would weigh 1 ton, just like two 'mech scale Light Machine Guns.

The Dual Support Lasers would only do 2 points of damage, not 1 and 1 (though they do get 2 vs. infantry).  They get a little more range for one less damage than the ER Small, and the same damage as the ER Micro Laser for twice the weight.

Dual Support Pulse Lasers would be a full ton (300 kg total weight of weapons).

I think I see what you're looking at with the range of the Support Laser.  The first number is short range (vice minimum), not the second.  That yields the 3 Tech Manual cites.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #28 on: 07 December 2019, 05:13:53 »
With the weight multiplier, Dual Support Machine Guns would weigh 1 ton, just like two 'mech scale Light Machine Guns.

Clan versions can weigh .25 tons. They'd also still do twice the damage against infantry.


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The Dual Support Lasers would only do 2 points of damage, not 1 and 1 (though they do get 2 vs. infantry).  They get a little more range for one less damage than the ER Small, and the same damage as the ER Micro Laser for twice the weight.

Early you said their advantage would be the multiple mounted weapons crit seeking. Is that being changed?

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Dual Support Pulse Lasers would be a full ton (300 kg total weight of weapons).

They'd still do nearly as much damage of a Small Laser and have twice the range.


Quote
I think I see what you're looking at with the range of the Support Laser.  The first number is short range (vice minimum), not the second.  That yields the 3 Tech Manual cites.

Sorry that doesn't work out. 100 meters/30 rounded would be 33 meters. That's pretty much 1 TW Hex. That's a max range of 3 hexes. The Support Laser has a TW range of 9 hexes.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #29 on: 07 December 2019, 08:26:23 »
Clan weapons are better than IS ones in pretty much every way.  And they'd be much less likely to mount infantry support weapons on "combat" units.  It's why I didn't provide "clan" RWS stats.  I put the clan weapons in because they'd eventually be captured and some IS tech would try to bolt them into an IS RWS.

The "crit seeking" I was referring to was via piling on large numbers of 0.25 weapons.  Eight 0.25 ton weapons at one point of damage each can do better than an SRM-2 with a ton of ammo, at least at the crit seeking job.  SRMs still win with regard to alternate ammunition types though.

At one ton, I think the measuring stick is the Medium Laser, not the Small.  In that light, I think Dual Support Pulse Lasers are a balanced choice: 5 points of damage and 3 heat vs. 2 points of damage/2d6 Anti-Infantry damage and 2 heat.  It comes down to what you expect to face.

100 meters / 30 meters is a dimensionless 3.33, which rounds to 3, which is exactly what Tech Manual lists as the short range for Support Lasers.  That short range translates to 3/6/9 at S/M/L.