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Author Topic: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)  (Read 1904 times)

Retry

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #30 on: 07 December 2019, 12:05:15 »
Daryk has the right of it.  Range(m)/HexWidth(m/hex) is the relevant formula here, where HexWidth is the length of a single battletech hex in meters, a constant 30 meters/hex.

100m/30(m/hex)=3.33hexes, rounding down to a 3 hex short range.

For a Heavy Support laser with a short range of 150m, that formula gives 150m/30(m/hex)=5 hexes, again exactly translating into the Techmanual value.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #31 on: 07 December 2019, 13:55:27 »
Clan weapons are better than IS ones in pretty much every way.  And they'd be much less likely to mount infantry support weapons on "combat" units.  It's why I didn't provide "clan" RWS stats.  I put the clan weapons in because they'd eventually be captured and some IS tech would try to bolt them into an IS RWS.

Its not just some IS Tech bolting them on but some IS company producing them, depending on the era. I can also see the Society using bolting infantry weapons on to give them any kind of edge.


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The "crit seeking" I was referring to was via piling on large numbers of 0.25 weapons.  Eight 0.25 ton weapons at one point of damage each can do better than an SRM-2 with a ton of ammo, at least at the crit seeking job.  SRMs still win with regard to alternate ammunition types though.

When I mentioned the rules in XTRO:1945 and how multimounted weapons roll on the cluster hit chart when fired at the same target you said that that made them better crit seekers and you didn't like that. Are you having all the weapons hit the same target? If so are you adding the damage together and are you also using the AToWC formula? Because I got a higher number for damage than TM gives.


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At one ton, I think the measuring stick is the Medium Laser, not the Small.  In that light, I think Dual Support Pulse Lasers are a balanced choice: 5 points of damage and 3 heat vs. 2 points of damage/2d6 Anti-Infantry damage and 2 heat.  It comes down to what you expect to face.

Not really. You're comparing pulse lasers. Both the small pulse laser and the multiple mount support pulse laser would weigh the same and generate the same heat. Damage depends on if the dual mount rolls on the cluster hit chart or not. It also depends on if you use AToW or TM damage or not. If you do the dual mount generates the same damage against vehicle scale and twice that against infantry.

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100 meters / 30 meters is a dimensionless 3.33, which rounds to 3, which is exactly what Tech Manual lists as the short range for Support Lasers.  That short range translates to 3/6/9 at S/M/L.

That's what I've been saying. The Support Laser has a range of 9 hexes. And the ranges for Small Lasers and Small Pulse Lasers are 1/2/3. So for the same weight and and heat the Multiple mounted Infantry lasers do the same, or better, damage at three times the range. That totally outclasses the vehicle scale weapons.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #32 on: 07 December 2019, 14:07:52 »
The multi-mounts in XTRO: 1945 mount in multiples in excess of three.  "All" (usually "both") weapons hit the same location when fired from the same RWS, and the damage is simply added together and rounded normally.  The reason I introduced dual mounting was to drive some differentiation in mounts, as a number of weapons would otherwise be identical.

Infantry pulse lasers don't get the bonus to hit 'mech scale ones do, so the only similarity between the two is the Anti-Infantry damage.  Dual mounting two of them would get you 2 damage, 2d6 Anti-Infantry damage, 2 heat, and 3/6/9 range for one ton.  Against infantry, the dual mount is clearly superior.  Against vehicles, you trade damage for range and YMMV.

Short range divided by 30 rounding normally. That comes up to 11 for the Support Laser.
*snip*
Please forgive my misinterpretation of what you said here.  Honestly, I'm still confused by it.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #33 on: 08 December 2019, 17:18:20 »
The multi-mounts in XTRO: 1945 mount in multiples in excess of three.  "All" (usually "both") weapons hit the same location when fired from the same RWS, and the damage is simply added together and rounded normally.  The reason I introduced dual mounting was to drive some differentiation in mounts, as a number of weapons would otherwise be identical.

The ones in XTRO:1945 can be mounted in twos, threes, or fours. They can also be fired together using the cluster chart or individually.

About the differentiation between mounts, do you mean all that extra weight?



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Infantry pulse lasers don't get the bonus to hit 'mech scale ones do, so the only similarity between the two is the Anti-Infantry damage.  Dual mounting two of them would get you 2 damage, 2d6 Anti-Infantry damage, 2 heat, and 3/6/9 range for one ton.  Against infantry, the dual mount is clearly superior.  Against vehicles, you trade damage for range and YMMV.
Please forgive my misinterpretation of what you said here.  Honestly, I'm still confused by it.

That's 2d6 per weapon against infantry. Against vehicles, using the AToWC formula I'm getting 10 points each, which can't be right. I am following the formula given. I also get 10 for the support machine gun so somethings off.



Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #34 on: 08 December 2019, 18:04:49 »
It's only 1d6 per weapon, so 2d6 for the dual mount.  I'd have to see your math to tell you where it went wrong.  I've been through most of the Tech Manual table, and I've only found a handful of weapons I can't explain.

Weight is certainly one of the differentiators.  Mostly, I was trying to avoid different weapons ending up completely identical at the TW scale.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #35 on: 09 December 2019, 15:08:44 »
It's only 1d6 per weapon, so 2d6 for the dual mount.  I'd have to see your math to tell you where it went wrong.  I've been through most of the Tech Manual table, and I've only found a handful of weapons I can't explain.


Looking at TW page 216 it says burst weapons use the table on page 217. Pulse lasers are burst weapons and would do 2d6 damage against infantry. There's two weapons in a dual mount so that'd be 2d6, each.


Okay found it. Missed the "To a max of 1" part for the reload factor. With that I get 3.25 damage for the Support Pulse Laser. TM lists the Support Laser as doing .81 damage. So I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.


Here's my math for the Support Pulse Laser.
Infantry Damage Conversion Formula*:
Total Warfare Damage = [(5 x 32.5) ÷ 50] x 1

Penetration Factor = 5
Damage Factor = 5 x (3.5 + (15 ÷ 5))
Reload Factor (Support Weapon) = (13 ÷ 3), to max of 1
(Military Power Pack has 200 power Points and the Support Pulse Laser uses 7 points per shot. A burst is 15 shots)


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Weight is certainly one of the differentiators.  Mostly, I was trying to avoid different weapons ending up completely identical at the TW scale.

Unfortunately, I think that's what is going to happen since TW scale are scaled up versions.

I think one way to avoid them being completely identical is to include ammo even for energy weapons. That's how it is legally anyway. Plus it makes them different. Standard Laser and Chemical Lasers have the same stats except the latter use ammo. Same principle with infantry weapons. I'm of mixed feelings about heat. Currently they don't need a heat sink in small vehicles. If you did include heat in larger vehicles/mechs you could make the heat sinks dedicated and part of the same system, like an ammo bin. That would further make them different from regular energy weapons.

Outside ammo/cargo bins in Superheavy mechs the only multiple mountings I know of are XTRO:1945 weapons and Compact Heat Sinks. I want to say take the weight of a weapon and all the ammo you want to shoot and increase it 50%.Then round it off. But part of me doesn't wan't to go over .25 tons otherwise, why not multiple mount everything?


Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #36 on: 09 December 2019, 19:22:52 »
I think your math problem is Penetration Factor:

Penetration Factor = AP/4 (unless it's an incendiary, in which case it gets (AP+2)/4, so the PF is 1.25, not 5.

Plugging that in to the rest of your math yields the 0.81 from Tech Manual.

As far as the Anti-Infantry damage from TW, the table on page 217 only lists 'mech and BA scale weapons, and the text on page 216 is only referring to weapons at that scale too.  Page 215 has a paragraph on "Machine Gun Platoons" that points in the right direction.  You really need to be looking in Tech Manual (page 148).

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #37 on: 09 December 2019, 19:56:32 »
I think your math problem is Penetration Factor:

Penetration Factor = AP/4 (unless it's an incendiary, in which case it gets (AP+2)/4, so the PF is 1.25, not 5.

Plugging that in to the rest of your math yields the 0.81 from Tech Manual.

Ah I see it now. Thanks :)


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As far as the Anti-Infantry damage from TW, the table on page 217 only lists 'mech and BA scale weapons, and the text on page 216 is only referring to weapons at that scale too.  Page 215 has a paragraph on "Machine Gun Platoons" that points in the right direction.  You really need to be looking in Tech Manual (page 148).

Page 216 doesn't specify infantry or vehicle. I does say Battle Armor. The only other things I can find are "Machine Gun Platoons" page 215 and "Damage from Other Infantry Units:" page 216.  Pulse Lasers aren't Machine Guns and damage is the standard damage then the Support Laser doesn't get a 1d6 damage against infantry.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #38 on: 09 December 2019, 20:13:56 »
The page 217 table only refers to "BattleMechs, ProtoMechs and Vehicles" in the upper part, and "Battle Armor" in the lower part.  Those weapons are specific TW scale weapons.  Similarly, the "Burst Fire" descriptor mentioned refers to TW scale weapons with that property, not infantry scale weapons.

And you're quite welcome for the math help... some parts of that rule are easier to overlook than others.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #39 on: 10 December 2019, 08:19:52 »
The page 217 table only refers to "BattleMechs, ProtoMechs and Vehicles" in the upper part, and "Battle Armor" in the lower part.  Those weapons are specific TW scale weapons.  Similarly, the "Burst Fire" descriptor mentioned refers to TW scale weapons with that property, not infantry scale weapons.

In which case no Infantry Pulse Laser should get the 1d6 against infantry.


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And you're quite welcome for the math help... some parts of that rule are easier to overlook than others.

That's for sure! I know I had divided by 4 at one point as I remember the 1.25. Where it went I don't know but next thing I knew it wasn't there. Thanks :beer:

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #40 on: 10 December 2019, 18:33:21 »
I give them the 1d6 based on Tech Manual, page 148.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #41 on: 11 December 2019, 07:57:13 »
and they have the B mod listed in the chart. But that doesn't make much sense. The Light Machine Gun has a higher burst rate and doesn't get the B. Even the Semi Portable Pulse Laser has a higher burst rate and doesn't have the B. Not even the Support Autocannon has the B.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #42 on: 11 December 2019, 17:12:25 »
The B requires a couple of things outlined in the Companion (APxBD => 20, Burst of at least 15) that some of those weapons don't have.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #43 on: 11 December 2019, 18:33:25 »
The B requires a couple of things outlined in the Companion (APxBD => 20, Burst of at least 15) that some of those weapons don't have.

And the only one I listed that doesn't have a burst of 15 listed in the Companion is the Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Portable).  The Companion gives it a burst of 10. Non of the lasers have a burst of 15 in Total Warfare. Yet it does give the Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Portable) a greater burst rate than the other two pulse lasers.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #44 on: 11 December 2019, 18:44:29 »
I'm not sure what you're talking about there... AToW page 275 lists both the Support Pulse Laser and Heavy Support Pulse Lasers with bursts of 15, so for purposes of the Companion's formula, they both qualify for the Heavy Burst special.  The semi-portable one is listed with a burst of 10, so it doesn't.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #45 on: 12 December 2019, 06:20:50 »
TechManual lists the shots/bursts for the weapons and the math doesn't equal a burst of 15.

Auto-Rifle (30/2)  15 round bursts no B
Rifle (Federated-Barrett M42B) (50/5) 10 round bursts has the B
Rifle (Imperator AX-22 Assault) (15/1) 15 round burst no B
SMG (Rorynex RM-3/XXI) (100/6) 16 round bursts no B
SMG (Rugan) (100/7) 14 round burst no B
Autocannon (Bearhunter Super-Heavy)(180/6) 30 round bursts has B
Autocannon (Semi-Portable)(200/8) 25 round bursts no B
Machine Gun (Light)(45/3) 15 round burst no B
Machine Gun (Portable)(75/5) 15 round burst has B
Machine Gun (Semi-Portable)(80/4) 20 round burst has B
Machine Gun (Support)(100/5) 20 round burst has B
Pulse Laser (Dragonsbane Disp.)(1-D) no B
Support Pulse Laser (21/4) 5 round burst has B
Support Pulse Laser (Heavy)(18/3) 6 round burst has B
Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Portable)(25/2) 12 round burst no B

The Ballistic Weapons all have greater burst rates than the Pulse Lasers yet they're hit and miss when it comes to getting the B modifier for Burst. Also the Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Portable) has a burst rate twice that of the other two pulse lasers yet it doesn't have the B modifier. All the Ballistic weapons I listed should have the B modifier. If a 5 round burst grants the B all weapons with a burst of 5 or more should have the B. Also AToW gives the first 3 Pulse lasers a burst of 15 and the last one a burst of 10. Something's out of whack.

Below are from the Companion. It doesn't say one way or another. I'm including them just because.

Machine Gun (Vintage)(90/9) 10 round bursts. This is from page 195. Page 172 has a burst of 15 so it'd be (90/6) Is there errata for this? B or no B?
Minigun (Vintage)(500/10) 50 round bursts. Should have the B
Gatling Gun (Vintage)(480/40) 12 round bursts. B or no B?

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #46 on: 12 December 2019, 18:10:42 »
The ones without the B in that list have APxBD<20, so no B for them (nor any of the vintage weapons).  The M42B is an errata problem I've been pointing out for years (the weapon as listed in Tech Manual combines the grenade launcher with the machine gun configuration which doesn't have it; in MG mode, it qualifies for B, but should do less damage and be in the Support Weapon list).

Tech Manual doesn't list the burst value... it lists the number of bursts in a "reload" of ammo.  AToW has the actual burst values.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #47 on: 13 December 2019, 05:16:43 »
The ones without the B in that list have APxBD<20, so no B for them (nor any of the vintage weapons).  The M42B is an errata problem I've been pointing out for years (the weapon as listed in Tech Manual combines the grenade launcher with the machine gun configuration which doesn't have it; in MG mode, it qualifies for B, but should do less damage and be in the Support Weapon list).

Tech Manual doesn't list the burst value... it lists the number of bursts in a "reload" of ammo.  AToW has the actual burst values.

You'll need to tell me where that it as I don't remember seeing it before.  A couple without the B do equal 20 though. As for the rest of the support weapons, they're made for anti-infantry. Even the vintage ones. They should get the B. Especially when you look at the M42B. The more rounds fired the higher the damage. The Minigun's firing bursts of 50 compared to the 15 of the M42B. It should be taking out more than 1 trooper.

Actually, TechManual says that it does list the weight for the number of shots/bursts for weapons. It does say its mostly intended for vehicles since they use that weight and infantry don't. But if those shot/burst rates don't  match up with AToW there needs to be an errata issued.

Going back to the M42B, it's a case for less abstraction.  Along with absurd things like a single trooper with a rifle allowing a melee weapon armed platoon to hit at 9 hexes. Infantry should have multiple attacks, same as any other unit. They should also be able to use all the types of ammo available to them. Why shouldn't the infantry be able to fire the rest of their weapons at the enemy and then fire the grenade launchers with smoke rounds to cover their movement? Or small vehicles, since they can also use the M42B?

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #48 on: 13 December 2019, 06:00:44 »
The requirements for all the special features are in the table on page 171 of the AToW Companion.

Auto-Rifle (30/2)  15 round bursts no B (APxBD=16)
Rifle (Federated-Barrett M42B) (50/5) 10 round bursts has the B (already noted the problem here)
Rifle (Imperator AX-22 Assault) (15/1) 15 round burst no B (APxBD=16)
SMG (Rorynex RM-3/XXI) (100/6) 16 round bursts no B (APxBD=6)
SMG (Rugan) (100/7) 14 round burst no B (APxBD=6)
Autocannon (Bearhunter Super-Heavy)(180/6) 30 round bursts has B
Autocannon (Semi-Portable)(200/8) 25 round bursts no B (APxBD=18)
Machine Gun (Light)(45/3) 15 round burst no B (APxBD=15)
Machine Gun (Portable)(75/5) 15 round burst has B
Machine Gun (Semi-Portable)(80/4) 20 round burst has B
Machine Gun (Support)(100/5) 20 round burst has B
Pulse Laser (Dragonsbane Disp.)(1-D) no B (APxBD=15)
Support Pulse Laser (21/4) 5 round burst has B (Burst is 15 per AToW page 275)
Support Pulse Laser (Heavy)(18/3) 6 round burst has B (Burst is 15 per AToW page 275)
Support Pulse Laser (Semi-Portable)(25/2) 12 round burst no B (Burst is 10 per AToW page 275)

A single trooper is insufficient to change a unit's range, and I think the melee weapon thing was taken care of with errata.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #49 on: 14 December 2019, 00:46:10 »
The requirements for all the special features are in the table on page 171 of the AToW Companion.

I think I found it. Thanks. :)

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A single trooper is insufficient to change a unit's range, and I think the melee weapon thing was taken care of with errata.

As far as I can see as long as there's 2 secondary weapons per squad they get the longest range. So if a platoon has 8 Auto-Rifles the other 20 troopers with clubs can still hit at 3 hexes.

Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #50 on: 14 December 2019, 06:33:54 »
I really could have sworn the melee damage thing was answered in errata or a rules question, but can't find it beyond the newest printing saying "Attack only at 0 Hexes*" on page 148.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #51 on: 14 December 2019, 08:33:38 »
I really could have sworn the melee damage thing was answered in errata or a rules question, but can't find it beyond the newest printing saying "Attack only at 0 Hexes*" on page 148.


From the latest errata I have.
Quote
Change to:
“If the platoon fields 1 Secondary Weapon or less per squad, the ranges, modifiers and Damage Type that apply to the platoon’s attack are those of the Primary Weapons. If the platoon fields 2 or more Secondary Weapons per squad, then it is the Secondary Weapons’ range, modifiers and Damage Type that apply.”

It all goes towards abstracting infantry and giving them just one attack. I'd rather have multiple attacks.


Daryk

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #52 on: 14 December 2019, 08:59:17 »
Honestly, given how cheap Auto Rifles are, the melee weapon exploit isn't that much.  Even the Vibro-Axe only does 0.42 against the Auto-Rifles 0.52, and that's for nearly twice the price.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #53 on: 14 December 2019, 15:38:25 »
Honestly, given how cheap Auto Rifles are, the melee weapon exploit isn't that much.  Even the Vibro-Axe only does 0.42 against the Auto-Rifles 0.52, and that's for nearly twice the price.

But it gets worse if you give them a greater ranged weapon. Replace the Auto-Rifles with Light SRMs and the platoon is doing 13 damage at 9 hexes when really only 5 of those points can actually reach that far.


Going back to the topic, I was wondering about having something like the Machine Gun Array to control the multiple mount so all the weapons hit the same place and damage is added together. Then if it get destroyed they roll on the cluster hit chart.

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #54 on: 14 December 2019, 22:34:14 »
I was shooting to keep the damage low enough that having 2 or 3 weapons hit the same place wouldn't be that big of a deal.

As far as the Light SRM idea, you're limited to only 2 Support Weapons per squad.

RifleMech

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #55 on: 15 December 2019, 09:04:03 »
I was shooting to keep the damage low enough that having 2 or 3 weapons hit the same place wouldn't be that big of a deal.

As far as the Light SRM idea, you're limited to only 2 Support Weapons per squad.

The most damage you're going to do with grouped Infantry weapons would be 8 points, rounded up. 7 just added. The number of infantry weapons that can do that much damage is reduced if you limit multiples to under .25 tons with ammo. Require a targeting system an they get less powerful.

For example, A quad mounted 2 shot SRM Launcher would weigh .12 tons. Ammo 6 shots (10 if you include first shots free.) weight another .12 tons for a total of .25 tons. That'd be rounded up to .5 tons for mounting systems and such. With that targeting system it'd weigh another .5 tons for a total of 1 ton and 2 critical slots. For damage it'd do 5 points of damage to one location for 2 rounds and then drop to 2 points on the third. Then its out of damage. Without the targeting system it'd roll on the cluster chart to determine how many missiles hit each turn. It'd also only have a max range of 6 hexes. It's hardly better than an SRM-2 in terms of damage with less range and less ammo.  Unless of course you want to have ammo bins as a separate weight and crit. Then the quad 2 shots would have a total of 50 rounds of ammo but the range would still be shorter

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #56 on: 15 December 2019, 10:41:44 »
The real trick with the missile launchers (and part of why I cranked up their mass so much) is that their damage is limited by the Reload Factor for the hand held versions, which would increase their damage significantly.  I'll try to work those out today.

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #57 on: 15 December 2019, 12:00:32 »
Hmm... Missile launchers are all kinds of screwed up.  There was an AToW errata that changed the number of shots for the Heavy and Light SRM launchers, leaving me to wonder what the heck the difference between the Heavy and Standard was meant to be.  And the ordnance rules seem to point to the damage values being all over the place.  I'm not sure they're fixable without a complete overhaul.  Could be a new thread entirely...

Retry

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #58 on: 15 December 2019, 12:25:11 »
Hmm... Missile launchers are all kinds of screwed up.  There was an AToW errata that changed the number of shots for the Heavy and Light SRM launchers, leaving me to wonder what the heck the difference between the Heavy and Standard was meant to be.  And the ordnance rules seem to point to the damage values being all over the place.  I'm not sure they're fixable without a complete overhaul.  Could be a new thread entirely...
I'm not familiar with the AToW errata.  Is the Heavy SRM still the 1 shot / 18kg reload launcher, and the Standard SRM the 2 shot / 20kg reload launcher?

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Re: Remote Weapon Stations (RWS)
« Reply #59 on: 15 December 2019, 12:42:35 »
Here's the verbatim text from page 6 of the AToW Errata v2.02 (5 July, 2015):
Quote
* Missile Launchers (p. 274)
1) SRM Launcher (Light)
Change shots to 1.
2) SRM Launcher (Heavy)
Change shots to 2.
So the simple answer to your question is "no".

Also, I had forgotten about errata Herb posted for the AToW Companion back in 2013, modifying how the Burst value affects the Damage Factor: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=23279.msg637725#msg637725

Basically, you round the (Burst/5) factor normally, vice up as printed in the Companion.