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Author Topic: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?  (Read 2951 times)

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #30 on: 27 December 2019, 14:32:08 »
Thanks so far everyone!

Right now the ones I'm liking most are:

"You cannot judge me. Victory is above pedestrian morality. You should be thanking me."

"Their surrender was a poor choice. I don't regret killing them. Neither should you."

"The law is quiet in war. Victory had a small price. I made sure they paid it."

"What I did there, was for the good of everyone, including the people who were unfortunate collateral damage."


"It's a crime against humanity to call them human, the same way we are human."

"War crimes? You need me and my army more that I need you."

"Crimes? I'll not be judged by men who've never stood the wall."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #31 on: 27 December 2019, 20:51:54 »

“Do I have nightmares?  About screaming children?  Burning bodies?  No, I have no such fantasies.”
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #32 on: 27 December 2019, 22:48:09 »
"Remind the losers that only the victors have the right to make accusations."

"The only crime is any war is losing, I guess I have to remind them."

"I'm accused of what? That's it, my Atlas needs a fresh coat of blood."

Heh, these are lines I've used in one form or another...
« Last Edit: 28 December 2019, 05:47:12 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

ckosacranoid

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #33 on: 28 December 2019, 03:43:28 »
War crimes? I love the sound of that. I need a bloody colored wine now.

haesslich

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #34 on: 28 December 2019, 14:21:29 »
"My job was to win. That city was an acceptable price to pay for victory."

Greatclub

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #35 on: 28 December 2019, 21:21:32 »
If the civilians didn't want it deployed, why did they pay to have it made?

Church14

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #36 on: 28 December 2019, 21:38:25 »
No general. There is no way it could be more on fire

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #37 on: 29 December 2019, 08:13:36 »
I've got another one I came up with today:

"War Criminal? *smirks* You mean my legacy. Each 'crime' represents another step towards victory, and destiny."

BoloMKIV

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #38 on: 29 December 2019, 12:45:30 »
"Kill them all, Blake will know his own"
"The only war crime I've witnessed was the incompetence of my opponents."
"One man's war crime is another man's decisive victory"
"War crimes are words civilians use when confronted with the true cost of victory"
"You call that a War crime?  You'll need a new term for the encore."

Sir Chaos

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #39 on: 29 December 2019, 13:28:55 »
"One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a live-fire exercise."
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Cannonshop

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #40 on: 29 December 2019, 13:38:22 »
"Your miscalculation of the costs is responsible for this, you should have considered the price before you asked me to do this for you."
The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Wolf72

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #41 on: 29 December 2019, 13:57:10 »
Some of General Zod's comments to Kal-el before Kal snapped his neck.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left. -- said no Clanner ... ever!

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #42 on: 29 December 2019, 20:06:07 »
I've got another one I came up with today:

"War Criminal? *smirks* You mean my legacy. Each 'crime' represents another step towards victory, and destiny."

These kinds of quotes are characteristic of mass murderers, serial killers, and the like, but not really war criminals.

Mass murderers and serial killers are usually aware that they have transgressed against fundamental tenets of human society and even seek to capitalize on those transgressions for their own gain (however twisted).  They commit immoral acts and usually know it.

War criminals are often not aware that they have committed evil acts.  In their minds, they simply did their job.  Their moral failure is not in their intent to do evil.  Rather, they fail to stand up to or question authority when commanded to do evil.  They commit amoral acts and usually don’t know it.

I don’t want to cause a Rule 4 violation, but it’s enlightening to read about the Nuremberg trials and similar.  Setting aside the deranged leaders at the top, the concentration camp commanders and the rank-and-file responsible for the executions didn’t see themselves as doing evil or seek to justify their acts beyond doing their duty.

That’s very different from the mass murderer who seeks revenge or to be taken seriously by bringing automatic weapons into a workplace or school.  It’s also very different from a serial killer who derives pleasure from the act and/or fame from the cat-and-mouse game with authorities.

Of course, “I did my duty” isn’t nearly as interesting as anything Hannibal Lecter or the like has to say.  But it’s also more realistic.

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #43 on: 29 December 2019, 20:09:43 »
These kinds of quotes are characteristic of mass murderers, serial killers, and the like, but not really war criminals.

Mass murderers and serial killers are usually aware that they have transgressed against fundamental tenets of human society and even seek to capitalize on those transgressions for their own gain (however twisted).  They commit immoral acts and usually know it.

War criminals are often not aware that they have committed evil acts.  In their minds, they simply did their job.  Their moral failure is not in their intent to do evil.  Rather, they fail to stand up to or question authority when commanded to do evil.  They commit amoral acts and usually don’t know it.

I don’t want to cause a Rule 4 violation, but it’s enlightening to read about the Nuremberg trials and similar.  Setting aside the deranged leaders at the top, the concentration camp commanders and the rank-and-file responsible for the executions didn’t see themselves as doing evil or seek to justify their acts beyond doing their duty.

That’s very different from the mass murderer who seeks revenge or to be taken seriously by bringing automatic weapons into a workplace or school.  It’s also very different from a serial killer who derives pleasure from the act and/or fame from the cat-and-mouse game with authorities.

Of course, “I did my duty” isn’t nearly as interesting as anything Hannibal Lecter or the like has to say.  But it’s also more realistic.

FWIW...

Fair dues! I've got a bunch of ones that I've mined so far above too (thank you to everyone whose contributed so far lol)

I'm just spit-balling most of these until something's a good fit. Once I know for sure what I'm going with, I'll let everyone know, lol

Daryk

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #44 on: 29 December 2019, 20:15:25 »
If you really want to see into the mind of war criminals, I can't recommend the movie "Conspiracy" enough.  Branagh's performance was chilling...

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #45 on: 29 December 2019, 20:35:54 »
If you really want to see into the mind of war criminals, I can't recommend the movie "Conspiracy" enough.  Branagh's performance was chilling...

Conspiracy, though they are war criminals in it, to me strikes as more of a movie about genocide. Which is a war crime, but there are different kinds of war criminals with different motivations. I don't want to break any rules on the board by going too in-depth on the subject. It's a very good movie, however. lol

-Some War Criminals do it for a 'love' of their state/nation/country.
-Some War Criminals do it because they have endless personal ambition, and want to progress their career.
-Some War Criminals do it out of hatred of the other, rather than love of the former.
-Some War Criminals do it out of ignorance of what the crime itself is, or the belief that they'll be shielded, and that their decision was the best at the time to help their own or hide their mistakes. (You can see examples of this in modern conflicts, again, can't go into many details)
-Hell, some of them simply do it because it was the most expedient way to achieve their most immediate objectives. "To save the village, you must destroy the village"

I'd argue that Conspiracy really mostly shows their hatred or their 'love' of their nation, with only a few of the characters showing the former.

There is a broad swathe of people that fall under this general idea. Which is interesting as well! They are as diverse as any other kind of criminal. Which is one reason why I'm going over all the responses and trying to narrow them down :)

Daryk

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #46 on: 29 December 2019, 20:40:15 »
Branagh's character was absolutely all about personal ambition, and more than one of the others were too.  But yes, details would definitely head into Rule 4 territory.

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #47 on: 29 December 2019, 20:58:21 »
Branagh's character was absolutely all about personal ambition, and more than one of the others were too.  But yes, details would definitely head into Rule 4 territory.

-Some War Criminals do it for a 'love' of their state/nation/country.
"War Crimes? How can they be crimes? They were given the Traitor's due."

-Some War Criminals do it because they have endless personal ambition, and want to progress their career.
"Stop calling them War Crimes. These bars on my neck? They were earned with those actions."

-Some War Criminals do it out of hatred of the other, rather than love of the former.
"I'd hardly call them crimes. You can only commit crimes against our citizens. Those animals are not."

-Some War Criminals do it out of ignorance of what the crime itself is, or the belief that they'll be shielded, and that their decision was the best at the time to help their own or hide their mistakes.
"It was their fault. They're the ones who put their base near a civilian target. It was the only way."

-Hell, some of them simply do it because it was the most expedient way to achieve their most immediate objectives.
"The coalteral damage was unfortunate, but necessary to achieve our goals in a reasonable timeframe."

Just as a few examples. The people who would say these things are all pretty different from one another, but they're all still criminals. lol

Daryk

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #48 on: 29 December 2019, 21:26:53 »
Good examples all!  :thumbsup:

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #49 on: 30 December 2019, 00:35:53 »
-Some War Criminals do it for a 'love' of their state/nation/country.
"War Crimes? How can they be crimes? They were given the Traitor's due."

-Some War Criminals do it because they have endless personal ambition, and want to progress their career.
"Stop calling them War Crimes. These bars on my neck? They were earned with those actions."

-Some War Criminals do it out of hatred of the other, rather than love of the former.
"I'd hardly call them crimes. You can only commit crimes against our citizens. Those animals are not."

Whatever works for your fictional character is your business.  But my point was/is that these kinds of war criminals are rare if they exist at all, and then usually only at the top of the chain of command where the killing isn’t actually done (only ordered).

If you are aware and conscious enough to think through and justify a war crime through your own personal ambition or the dehumanization of your victims, then you’re probably going to have a hard time committing the act in the first place.  Most people will not carry out such an immoral act when rationalized in such immoral terms.

“I deserved it” or “they deserved it” are more characteristic of pathological criminal minds, which don’t last long in militaries anyway, as they will prey upon friend and foe alike.  War crimes usually require a more detached mindset.

Quote
-Some War Criminals do it out of ignorance of what the crime itself is, or the belief that they'll be shielded, and that their decision was the best at the time to help their own or hide their mistakes.
"It was their fault. They're the ones who put their base near a civilian target. It was the only way."

-Hell, some of them simply do it because it was the most expedient way to achieve their most immediate objectives.
"The coalteral damage was unfortunate, but necessary to achieve our goals in a reasonable timeframe."

These are closer to the mindset of most historical/real-world war criminals.  The acts are still atrocious but justified amorally — in the absence of a sense of right and wrong — not immorally by claiming that an evil is actually a good.

“I did my duty.”

“It’s what the CO ordered.”

“I was following the NCO’s lead.”

“I was just going along with the rest of the unit.”

“It didn’t bother me or my company.”

“I’m not proud of it, but it doesn’t haunt me today, either.”

Etc.  I won’t belabor the point but you get the idea.  FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #50 on: 30 December 2019, 00:43:06 »
Whatever works for your fictional character is your business.  But my point was/is that these kinds of war criminals are rare if they exist at all, and then usually only at the top of the chain of command where the killing isn’t actually done (only ordered).

If you are aware and conscious enough to think through and justify a war crime through your own personal ambition or the dehumanization of your victims, then you’re probably going to have a hard time committing the act in the first place.  Most people will not carry out such an immoral act when rationalized in such immoral terms.

“I deserved it” or “they deserved it” are more characteristic of pathological criminal minds, which don’t last long in militaries anyway, as they will prey upon friend and foe alike.  War crimes usually require a more detached mindset.

These are closer to the mindset of most historical/real-world war criminals.  The acts are still atrocious but justified amorally — in the absence of a sense of right and wrong — not immorally by claiming that an evil is actually a good.

“I did my duty.”

“It’s what the CO ordered.”

“I was following the NCO’s lead.”

“I was just going along with the rest of the unit.”

“It didn’t bother me or my company.”

“I’m not proud of it, but it doesn’t haunt me today, either.”

Etc.  I won’t belabor the point but you get the idea.  FWIW...

I think you're also thinking War Criminals can only exist in the modern era.

Take a look at the list of atrocities caused by the Mongols, Huns, and other extreme invading armies prior to modern warfare, and those would definitely be war crimes as well. Genghis Khan is probably the worst war criminal in history, and despite being an evil tyrant and monster, he also had policies that kept people on side.

Again, without breaking some of the rules on the forum, there are plenty of War Criminals that are just truly sick people, even when they turn on their own. It doesn't take long to find them. I agree with you that there in the minority, but people tend to rise and fall from their positions based on a ton of circumstances. Even if someone's an evil monster, if they are taking care of the most immediate problems of the organization, that might get ignored. More than a few monsters accrued power this way.

Even in my native country, we had an air force officer of high rank, who may not have been committing war crimes, but was a serial killer and other serial thing. He was regarded relatively well by his colleagues, despite taking joy in the suffering of others.

The truth is, people are complicated. I've not decided what I'm doing yet, but it's not so cut and dry. These people can survive under the right conditions, sadly, more than you think :(

Greatclub

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #51 on: 30 December 2019, 00:46:46 »
See? Right here in the SOP, under contingencies.

Cannonshop

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #52 on: 30 December 2019, 01:00:36 »
"Oh yes, it's all very fine to drop fire and shrapnel on a city, but you shoot ONE man with unjacketed lead and you're suddenly a war criminal!"
The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Church14

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #53 on: 30 December 2019, 02:17:59 »
6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
16. Your name is in the mouth of others: be sure it has teeth.
20. If you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win.
27. Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
Amended: There is no "overkill." There is only "open fire" and "reload."
59. "Two wrongs is probably not going to be enough."

Lots of the 70 maxims could be made 8nto something suitably war criminal-ish

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #54 on: 30 December 2019, 02:48:23 »
I think you're also thinking War Criminals can only exist in the modern era.

By definition, that’s true.  The kind of international law and bodies needed to define and persecute war crimes did not exist in the Dark Ages, for example.

Quote
Take a look at the list of atrocities caused by the Mongols, Huns, and other extreme invading armies prior to modern warfare, and those would definitely be war crimes as well. Genghis Khan is probably the worst war criminal in history

Those are not the most straightforward examples.  The Mongols and the Huns were not genocidal, for example.

But I’ll give you a couple other examples that are more straightforward in supporting your case.

Julius Caesar sought the extermination of the Gauls in modern-day France.  He literally and proudly wrote back to Rome about how his campaign was killing “a million” Gauls.

Charlemagne sought the extermination of the Saxons in modern-day Germany.  He literally ordered the execution by sword of nearly 5,000 surrendered Saxons at the Massacre of Verden.

But these are extraordinary — in both a good and bad sense — men.

Unless your character is taking on a similar place in the BT universe (Great House Lord, March Lord, etc.), he is among the rank-and-file in Caesar’s legions or Charlemagne’s host.

And those legions and that host were not composed of thousands of mass murderers and serial killers.  Rather, they were composed of legionnaires, cavalry, and footmen who were doing their duty for Caesar, Emperor, payment in salt, payment in coin, feudal title/holding, or so they could just get back home.

They didn’t possess Caesar’s ridiculously outsized ambition or Charlemagne’s political and religious zeal.  They were just getting the job done.

Again, if you want to portray your character as immoral and evil, go for it.  It’s probably more interesting and certainly easier from a storytelling point of view.

I’m just saying that most war criminals in the kind of position your character likely occupies are amoral, not immoral, and they don’t even know it.  It’s not evil geniuses, but the banality of everyday evil that makes war crimes possible.

Quote
Even in my native country, we had an air force officer of high rank, who may not have been committing war crimes, but was a serial killer and other serial thing.

This is my point. 

That was a career serial killer who somehow managed to also maintain a career in the military.  He would have been an immoral murderer no matter where he went or what he did.

That psychology is very different from the average war criminal.  War criminals are not murderers outside the wartime environments they’re placed in and the wartime commands they’re given.  It is that unique combination of extreme circumstance and unthinking conscience that turns them into amoral murderers.

Maybe what you’re looking for is not necessarily a war criminal, but rather a murderer who also happens to be a soldier.

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #55 on: 30 December 2019, 02:51:01 »


That psychology is very different from the average war criminal.  War criminals are not murderers outside the wartime environments they’re placed in and the wartime commands they’re given.  It is that unique combination of extreme circumstance and unthinking conscience that turns them into amoral murderers.

Maybe what you’re looking for is not necessarily a war criminal, but rather a murderer who also happens to be a soldier.

FWIW...

I only made that post to prove a point that there is a large volume of people who commit war crimes. Most of the quotes I've mined so far don't really have anything to do with that. This has become a sticking point because you've made it, in your posts, seem like such a person is disqualified. I'm just saying that quotes of that nature aren't disqualified, and gave valid reasons as to why they aren't. That's all I'm saying.

Apocal

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #56 on: 30 December 2019, 08:00:02 »
Of course, “I did my duty” isn’t nearly as interesting as anything Hannibal Lecter or the like has to say.  But it’s also more realistic.

FWIW...

I just rephrased and shortened a bit from Colonel Jessup's speech from "A Few Good Men." IIRC, it was part of his actual defense.

BoloMKIV

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #57 on: 30 December 2019, 09:34:13 »
War Criminals dont actually have to do anything wrong.  I personally know a guy who was convicted of a war crime, because he wouldnt testify against other people in his unith.   I also know of at least one war crimes investigation started because a reporter overheard a comment made in the back of a truck. 
What civilians consider war crimes today are driven by ignorance and and an even more ignorant media.  Ignorant of the Laws of Land Warfare, ignorant of the whole situation, ignorant of rules of engagement.
In Battletech they have the Ares Conventions, but even those get put aside for the sake of victory.  Without the threat of a higher power to enforce a universal standard, the accusation will most likely come from the loser, and justice will depend on actually winning the war.
And yes there is gallows humor about war crimes, just like every other thing in the world.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #58 on: 30 December 2019, 12:26:09 »
And we've crossed over into the Rule 4 stuff that we shouldn't be talking about.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Who Wants to Help Build a War Criminal?
« Reply #59 on: 30 December 2019, 16:28:21 »
"It was far too remote to make a good demonstration, but we got to the objective eventually."

"Victory solves all problems."

"I'm a evil monster, without illusions for what I do but it must be done."

We do get several House units, let alone mercenary units, that do not seem to care about collateral damage.  The 8th Orloff Grenadiers according to the Chaos Irregulars are known for a heavy fist.  But they say the same about the Lyran unit on guard near Son Hoa- smash a target and worry not about the peons.  The Death Commandos very much are in the vein of 'I followed orders' level of war criminals, and intentionally so in the source material- its how they get the fanatical rating.

Sort of off, but b/c the mercs answer to the MRB/MRBC and always have to be on guard to a employer trying to rip them off- IMO the average merc is LESS likely to commit a war crime.  And outside of the Kell Hounds, they do not have a House to shelter them.
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