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Author Topic: Mad Cat C  (Read 1096 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Mad Cat C
« on: 08 January 2020, 21:34:49 »
I was looking thorough my record sheets and saw this mech.  It's quite possibly the least-used variant of the mech, so I was wondering who's used it and how effective it actually is.
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Sartris

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #1 on: 08 January 2020, 21:44:53 »
It’s an adequate skirmisher. The weapon ranges have synergy at least. Dual UAC/5 always feels underwhelming

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #2 on: 08 January 2020, 21:46:37 »
It's only got one Ultra 5.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #4 on: 08 January 2020, 22:39:27 »
So even less effective
or more challenge. One thing the War of Reaving provided was the most cannon information for various planets (gravity, atmosphere pressure, etc.). All that ballistic and missile fire would be at a penalty of some sort. It would suit the silly minded warrior caste to be successful ONLY using ammo weapons initially in a typical trial...?

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #5 on: 08 January 2020, 23:21:52 »
So even less effective

At what?  It's also got 2 LRM 15s and 2 ER Large Lasers.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #6 on: 08 January 2020, 23:27:20 »
Than if it had uac/5s two rather than one.

Like I said, it’s decent at mid-range and is enhanced by the fact the weapons line up well.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #7 on: 09 January 2020, 00:14:25 »
Seems like an ideal NPC Mad Cat.

It is pretty good.  It certainly doesn't suck.  But it's just not going to be somebody's first choice.  It's not as bad as the Mad Cat B (Gauss Rifle with 8 shots, Lg Pulse, Small Pulse, LRM-10 and SRM-4 each with Artemis).  The B seems to waste tonnage for the sake of wasting it.  If a GM took the B config with an enemy unit, the players would know that the GM was purposefully taking it easy on them.  But the C doesn't do that.  It's a perfectly adequate configuration.  It just isn't as awesome as the Prime, A, or D.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #8 on: 09 January 2020, 12:44:27 »
I used one in my group's tournament the last few months as part of my base force.  The Timber Wolf (ahem) C is a great platform, the only complaint as far as weapons is placement- I do not like having both the ERLL in the same arm.  I use the C a lot b/c its slightly cheaper in BV than the Prime but has a lot of the same weapons load.  When playing a Clan force in a 5k pick up game, the 3/5 Timber Wolf C is a nice addition at 3k.  Let's look at the weapons load-

2 ERLL
UAC/5 w/20 shots
2 LRM15 w/16 total shots
ERML
AMS w/24 shots
and it cools 30 heat, weapons alpha is 42

So, 25-22 hexes you can run and fire both ERLL.  21-16 hexes you can fire both ERLL and a LRM15 while walking for no heat gain, or gain +1 or +2 for running/UAC or running & UAC/5.  Drop under 15 hexes and you can fire 1 ERLL, both LRM15, the UAC/5 and ERML with the AMS on call and gain no heat while running.  Double tap adds another point of heat but easy to deal with by minor adjustments.

I lucked out, and my UAC did not jam until the last game of the 2nd round of fights.  Lol, but in true Ultra AC stories it jammed on the 1st turn of double tap!  Raises a question about dumping ammo that is located in a arm but I have not pursued the rules question.

So the Timber Wolf C is a very good bracket firing machine and with judicious use of the LRM ammo you can get a pretty heavy throw weight for around 9+ turns . . . by which point you are usually happy your LRM bins are empty.

Dak's C


Ogre's C


Not sure I am a fan of the rotary-style AC for the C, but those were the two images I found that showed the C best as minis.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #9 on: 09 January 2020, 13:35:03 »
In a way I feel the C configuration combines the Rifleman and Trebuchet on one frame.  I'd definitely take it over the B, and would consider it over the Prime for a ballistic alternative to the medium lasers.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #10 on: 09 January 2020, 14:13:13 »
Well, at 21 hexes you can fire everything except the ERML and not overheat badly . . . 2 ERLL, 2 LRM15 and UAC/5 @ double-tap gives you 36 heat . . . if you were standing still when firing you still have full speed the next turn, leave off the double-tap and you can walk for the same result.  Gives you a max of 55-60 (DT) damage which at that range is nothing to sneeze at post-Invasion.  Hunting Lyran plodding assaults, you can really rip them at range . . . though I would leave off 1 LRM15.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #11 on: 09 January 2020, 15:05:47 »
Given the high intensity of many Clan fights, the C seems like a good fit for those pilots that try to risk it all on a single pivotal heavy salvo. If that salvo fails to end the fight and you're stuck in a roasting mech, you can keep some pressure up with the Ultra while still cooling off enough that you'll likely be a full capacity the next turn, or at least getting close to it.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #12 on: 09 January 2020, 15:40:39 »
Yeah, its alpha is 42 . . . which is a double tap and AMS going off, though if I was going to do that I would walk rather than run which moves it to 43- 13 over.  So down to 4/6 on speed and a +2 to hit any target the turn after the alpha . . . being 13 over you have 17 heat to play with the next turn.  Walk, fire a ERLL, UAC/5 single and LRM15 and even if AMS fires you would only be at +2 heat.

One of the 10k battles, the Timber Wolf C had taken quite a bit of damage- thin armor, RT was open, and the CT had a engine TAC.  I think some of the back armor was even dinked and it had taken a head hit . . . even with the engine hit you can still keep up a high rate of fire, either the pair of ERLL and walk or run.  Or ERLL, 2 LRM 15, and the UAC either walking or running still keeps you at zero or low heat.

Like I said, its a great bracket or pattern firing machine able to adjust to circumstances.  Generally I do not miss the MGs or MPL the Timber Wolf Prime has in comparison since the AMS IMO really makes up for having less close in firepower.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #13 on: 12 January 2020, 01:31:02 »
Its an alternative to the Prime & basically better at range & is under estimated IMHO.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #14 on: 12 January 2020, 23:22:01 »
The C also works well as a general config if the pilot is unsure of the opposition.  You have LRMs for scatter damage, a Ultra AC 5 to help hammer home the clusters, and a good laser battery to punch at close or long range.  The C is also a decent config to use against stock 3025/3050 IS opponents on more open battlefields, since your speed and the range advantage become harder for the IS to deal with until 3055 and later variants come online.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #15 on: 13 February 2020, 16:19:27 »
The C is a pretty awesome Mech, for all the noise it receives. Excellent at AA, excellent at ranged support, it's only bad when dueling. But as a part of a larger formation, where teamwork is possible, you only need a couple of these to really degrade the enemy.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #16 on: 13 February 2020, 16:24:36 »
. . . it's only bad when dueling.

Huh?
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #17 on: 13 February 2020, 16:45:26 »
Huh?

Compared to other Twolf options, yeah, that uAC5 is a handicap.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #18 on: 13 February 2020, 17:19:36 »
It has two cERLL and a pair of LRM15s . . . I would gladly take it over the B and for ranged power over the D.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #19 on: 13 February 2020, 17:34:53 »
Than if it had uac/5s two rather than one.

Like I said, it’s decent at mid-range and is enhanced by the fact the weapons line up well.


I shudder to think of what you consider Short or Long range if a mech that has 5 of 6 weapons shooting 21-25 hexes is a "Mid" range mech to you.  LOL


The C, to me, is the most long Ranged T-Wolf in 3050, only to be passed by the E model eventually with ER-ATMs on it.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #20 on: 13 February 2020, 17:42:11 »

I shudder to think of what you consider Short or Long range if a mech that has 5 of 6 weapons shooting 21-25 hexes is a "Mid" range mech to you.  LOL



Arrow IV. maybe ELRMs. also i don't have time to play games where i'm sniping from 25 hexes

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #21 on: 14 February 2020, 00:59:23 »
It has two cERLL and a pair of LRM15s . . . I would gladly take it over the B and for ranged power over the D.

The D would beat it in a duel far more often than not, as would most TWolf configs. I'm not saying it's a bad design, far from it, but within the niche of 1 on 1 combat, it's not the best TWolf you can get. Maybe not even top 5, definitely not top 3.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #22 on: 14 February 2020, 02:34:41 »
Having used it, I'd say that it's a mech that duels reasonably well, but it's by no means spectacular.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #23 on: 14 February 2020, 03:24:24 »
Yeah, its not like taking a Rifleman IIC to a duel . . . but compared to the other Timber Wolves?  Its not too different from the Prime, bah the boring A, silly B, the D as mentioned, and the S all available during the Invasion/introduction.

The D's pilot has two chances to hit out to 23- the C has that at 25 and at 21 hexes it jumps up to 5 chances to hit if you risk the heat, I was doing 2 cERLL, LRM15 and UAC/5 to keep up the movement.  If the range closes to 15 hexes, the C gets 5 chances to hit (ERLL, 2 LRM15, UAC/5 and ERML) and the D needs to get to 12 hexes for the SSRMs which if one locks up will get some of the missiles negated by the AMS.  Meanwhile everything goes to medium range but the ERML- in fact the ERLLs get that 1 hex advantage at mid & short.

Yeah, the D has the headcapper and that can end it quick but the C is going to work away at the D as it runs to get the Streaks into play.  And the D can only run and fire both ERPPCs for 3 turns before it slows down.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #24 on: 14 February 2020, 10:18:22 »
Having used it, I'd say that it's a mech that duels reasonably well, but it's by no means spectacular.

So it's a config your Clan warrior uses to demonstrate his superiority over his opponent in a duel. "I'm so confident that I can kick your ass that I'm not even going to bring the good shit."
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #25 on: 14 February 2020, 10:49:27 »
but compared to the other Timber Wolves?  Its not too different from the Prime, bah the boring A, silly B, the D as mentioned, and the S all available during the Invasion/introduction.

I'm comparing it to all timberwolves. And of that group, the Prime, A and D are all better in a duel. Only the B is worse.

As you note, it's a pretty big handicap to have both lasers in 1 arm. A weakness the other TWolves don't have. (Well, save the B)


Quote
[hexes]

I'm not sure how your duels happen, but they tend to not stay at 25 hexes for me, but drop to 1 rapidly. 2-3 turns.


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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #26 on: 14 February 2020, 11:17:07 »
I will absolutely agree having both ERLL in one arm is a weakness- especially something that takes up a single crit.  But if my mech has a range advantage if I stay beyond 12 hexes, why would I get that close?  Even IF I dipped into SSRM range, if I can keep 9+ its unlikely I am going to face more than a single SSRM hit unless your talking elite Clan pilots and the AMS will degrade that that single hit.  Then you get into the D having heat issues to keep the speed up while the C has several firing patterns that let it pump out as much or more damage potential.  When the SSRMs come into play, then you add on more heat problems that will either force the D to slow down or not fire both the big hammers.

Yeah, LOS has to factor but that is the thing with declared Trials- you can dictate the terrain that best suits your mech if you are the hunted.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #27 on: 14 February 2020, 11:20:24 »
But if my mech has a range advantage if I stay beyond 12 hexes, why would I get that close?

Unless you have a major speed advantage, you don't get to choose.
And we're comparing timberwolves.


Quote
Yeah, LOS has to factor but that is the thing with declared Trials- you can dictate the terrain that best suits your mech if you are the hunted.

So that helps you 50% of the time.
And hurts you the other 50.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #28 on: 14 February 2020, 11:47:46 »

I'm not sure how your duels happen, but they tend to not stay at 25 hexes for me, but drop to 1 rapidly. 2-3 turns.

If I want to keep range, I generally walk backwards or try to run at an angle to my opponent.  I don't get to stay at 25 hexes, but if we're the same speed I can make closing to 1 hex really difficult.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #29 on: 14 February 2020, 11:51:08 »
Unless you have infinite mapsheets, and basically a pool table for terrain, I don't see how that's viable when the opponent has the same speed as you.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #30 on: 14 February 2020, 12:12:58 »
Yeah, the C has range advantage over every other Mad Cat config so all of them will try to close as quickly as possible, meaning that generally you're not going to get more than a round or two at your optimal range bands.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #31 on: 14 February 2020, 12:14:26 »
Unless you have a major speed advantage, you don't get to choose.
And we're comparing timberwolves.

You run forward 8, I back up 5 . . . you gain 3 hexes a turn unless you can pin me against some terrain.  After 3 turns of firing both ERPPCs you are only going to gain 1 hex, though that is the C's best turn to oblique for a new angle.  But that means they are now around 15 hexes, which is what I would be aiming at from the beginning of the engagement since it would be the ideal for that turn- cERLL's at medium range, the cERPPCs at long, and the D has at best a +2 move mod.  I also do not fight in 2x2 phone booths . . . not saying you can never bring the C into short range for the ERPPCs, but I am going to get handful of turns with more chances to hit for more potential damage (10+10+5+15 or 10+15+15+5).

We have chased a bit of a rabbit there, but . . .

I prefer the Prime & C in the Invasion era b/c I prefer the range options they give me over other configs- especially since as bracket firing platforms I can consistently fire up the main guns without having to slow down.  For me the A is usually unlucky- the SSRM ammo always gets TAC'd- and along with the D (and Linebacker D), it bugs me with the fanboi-ism.  Fought against people who swore by both of them over the years on the servers and put them both down with ranged fighting.  So my personal top 3 Timber Wolves would be the Prime, E and C- but I believe the cERLL is the best 'gun' in the game and prefer it over the cERPPC or cLPL.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #32 on: 14 February 2020, 12:19:02 »
You run forward 8, I back up 5 . . . you gain 3 hexes a turn unless you can pin me against some terrain. 

I don't play on pool tables, so that situation never occurs. You'll have to change angle because of hills or trees or other terrain. Or slow down because of the same.
And you're unlikely to have LOS unless you climb a hill and stay there.


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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #33 on: 14 February 2020, 15:42:17 »
I agree that you can't stay at range forever.  But remember Terrain works both ways.

I also think I'd STILL take the C over the D.

Sorry, heat issues on that D are going to be a problem.

And then Missiles are the Back up weapons so the AMS removes some of those.


The A is my favorite because, well, HEAT.

After that though, the Prime & C are "close" to interchangeable in their role.

The lower BV & nicer heat curve of the C both make me choose it over Prime in anything but a close range fight, & in a Mountain/Forest/City, I'd take A or S anyway.

B has no use for me & D is, IMO, only useful in a double blind match where getting into my back arc can happen by surprise.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #34 on: 14 February 2020, 15:46:26 »
I agree that you can't stay at range forever.  But remember Terrain works both ways.

Generally speaking, almost exclusively to the detriment to the ranged unit.


Quote
I also think I'd STILL take the C over the D.

I think you can make that argument, but that still leaves the Prime, A and S as superior in dueling.


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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #35 on: 14 February 2020, 15:55:07 »
I'm not convinced the Prime is that much better in a duel.

The C will put out more firepower over all due to better heat management.

The C will shoot down some of the Primes ranged fire w/ AMS.

The Prime does have advantage in being able to bring 2 extra Medium lasers into play at 15/12 hexes, but, the extremely low heat output of the AC means its adding in a couple taps every turn too for next to nothing in heat.

Prime Better?   Maybe.    Lots Better?  No.


As a star mate I'd take the C for sure since lower BV will allow me to get an edge with one of my other mechs.
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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #36 on: 14 February 2020, 16:42:54 »
The C will put out more firepower over all due to better heat management.

No.
Prime: 2 erll, 2LRM20 + run = 38, drop 34. Then either 1 erLL gets dropped to be heat neutral, or 1 LRM20 gets dropped to reduce heat by 2 for 2 turns:
20 + 24 damage, followed by 34 damage, alternating. 39 average.

The C: 2 erLL + 2 LRM15 + uAC5 at double + AMS + run = 39 heat, so 9 over. Pretty undesirable in my book to take those penalties when your enemy doesn't have to.
But 24 + 18 + 7 damage for the uAC5 on average = 49. Then 3 turns of running 39 damage while you cool down. Across 4 turns, it's 41.5 average, but 1 turn with a move and a to-hit penalty. Not sure that's a wash for just 3 extra damage, average.

Dropping the erLL allows you to push 39 damage each turn without ever having heat issues, so the same as a Prime.

Once you're close, the damage potential for the Prime is 1 erLL, 2 erML, 1 MPL, 1 LRM20: 43 damage for 34 heat.
The B can go to 1 erLL, 1 erML, 2 LRM15s, 1 uAC5: 42 damage for 31 heat.


Quote
The C will shoot down some of the Primes ranged fire w/ AMS.

Giving it a slight edge, yes. It's just AMS.
But the Prime's ammo doesn't last long anyway, so at some point the math is energy only.


Quote
Prime Better?   Maybe.    Lots Better?  No.

We agree.


Quote
As a star mate I'd take the C for sure since lower BV will allow me to get an edge with one of my other mechs.

That's a meta argument. Then universe doesn't deploy stuff with BV.


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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #37 on: 14 February 2020, 17:03:51 »
The C: 2 erLL + 2 LRM15 + uAC5 at double + AMS + run = 39 heat, so 9 over. Pretty undesirable in my book to take those penalties when your enemy doesn't have to.
Ah, and this is what I get for going from memory.
For some reason I swore it had more DHS than the Prime.
When doing the math in my head I thought it actually had 18 DHS for 36 vent or a standing AS of the Long Range guns for neutral heat.

If its only the stock 15 DHS in the engine then yeah, the Prime clearly has the edge in most cases.

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Re: Mad Cat C
« Reply #38 on: 14 February 2020, 17:13:35 »
When doing the math in my head I thought it actually had 18 DHS for 36 vent or a standing AS of the Long Range guns for neutral heat.

Ah! Yeah, if it could do that, you would be right, and it would be a superior Mech with a convincing margin. Since it's got substantially less throw weight after the ammo is gone, and since those 2 ERLL are in the right arm, I would expect to win pretty frequently with a Prime, unless the damage distribution went wonky.

 

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