Register Register

Author Topic: Ultra-Light Jump Jets  (Read 1293 times)

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #30 on: 27 February 2020, 12:51:16 »
I counted at least 12 mechs, not including different variants, Phoenix variants, and IIC that mounted jump jets in at least as many TROs. That doesn't include OMNI Configurations where JJs weren't fixed or other variants found only in RS that add JJs. And I don't think I looked through half the TROs that have been published. That's a lot to retcon.
A dozen afflicted 'Mechs out of thousands is not very many and easily manageable.  Of those, only the Stingers and Wasps see regular use in my group's campaigns, so there's only 2 'Mechs that are high priority to redo, and the changes are already in our books.

It's really not a big deal.

packhntr

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1064
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #31 on: 27 February 2020, 15:19:58 »
Uh...so your suggestion is standard jump jets should take twice the number of criticals and do twice the heat on BattleMechs under 50 tons?  Because the standard jump jet, as is, masses 0.5 ton per jump MP already in those mass brackets, but is only a single critical and one heat per jump jet.

I messed up in tonnage.  Meant the upper limit to be 35t. 

The reasoning is this:  Lighter materials required, more bulky then regular units due to this.  As for the heat, looking towards XXLFE for the inspiration...  Lighter, but less efficient...generates more heat.

If at first you don't succeed, make it worth the repairman's time!

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #32 on: 28 February 2020, 14:37:33 »
I messed up in tonnage.  Meant the upper limit to be 35t. 

The reasoning is this:  Lighter materials required, more bulky then regular units due to this.  As for the heat, looking towards XXLFE for the inspiration...  Lighter, but less efficient...generates more heat.
On the other hand, you don't need nearly as much force to lift a 25-ton Battlemech as you do need a 50 ton Battlemech (or 75-ton or 100-ton Mechs for that matter), so simply having a smaller version of the jump jets would suffice.

idea weenie

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #33 on: 01 March 2020, 15:04:37 »
Make these ULJJ built at only 1-2 factories, so even though they were useful, the factories were quickly destroyed during the 1SW.

That is why the .5 ton JJ was used afterwards.

For tonnage limit, I'd say anything 25 tons or less can use it.  So a 6/9/6 Stinger using ULJJ now only needs 1.5 tons for its Jump Capacity, instead of 3 tons.  That 1.5 tons could have been used for heavier armor, or additional weapons.  During 1SW the factory for the ULJJ was destroyed, so armor was reduced to let the Stinger keep its full Jump maneuverability.

(I would argue any Mech can always use a Jump jet designed for a larger Mech, but the smaller Mech won't get as much benefit.  So technically you could mount a 2-ton JJ on a Stinger, but it would still only count as 1 JJ.)

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8647
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #34 on: 01 March 2020, 16:58:36 »
I think one of the issues is JJ's are too light at the upper levels.

If they scaled with Mech Size bracket then you could leave them at 1/2 ton for Lights.

Lights = .5/JJ
Mediums = 1T/JJ
Heavy = 1.5T/JJ
Assault = 2T/JJ

I think that might really cut down on the # of Bouncy Bouncy Super-Mediums out there.


But I'm also of the mind that IJJ's should be the same weights & NOT get the Heat Reduction but make them MORE heat instead to balance them.
Double Crits & Double Heat for going Jumping RUN distance.
The need for more DHS & yet bigger JJs then limits things like Endo/Ferro & the amount of guns you can shoot at the same time.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Sabelkatten

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #35 on: 01 March 2020, 20:00:07 »
I'd prefer 0.33 tons per JJ for 25-35 ton, 0.25 tons for 10-20 tons. In general jumping light mechs just suffer too much for the weight of their JJs - I mean, why does a Stinger need to spend 15% of its tonnage on jump 6 when a Pixie only spends 7%?

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8647
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #36 on: 01 March 2020, 22:26:20 »
Hmm, 

Now I have the idea of a rule where JJ's are a % of Mech Weight like Partial Wings.

Rounded up to the nearest .5 ton & with 1 slot per MP.


Lets look at the edges of each range.

20 Tons = 2.5% / MP
55 Tons = .91% / MP
60 Tons  =  1.67% / MP
85 Tons  =  1.18% / MP
90 Tons  =  2.22% / MP
100 Tons   =  2% / MP

Wow, you really do see the 20 ton mechs getting the shaft in this comparison.


For a nice average I'm thinking 1.5% of the Mech Weight for each MP of Jumping is a good middle ground


Reconfigured for several common mechs in each of those brackets above.

Wasp - 6MP = 2 Tons
Griffin - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Quickdraw - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Shogun - 3MP = 4 Tons
Highlander - 3MP = 4.5 Tons
Marauder-II - 3MP = 4.5 Tons


Honestly, I'd be okay with those amounts.  Feels like better balance at those break points, less meta gaming
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

RifleMech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #37 on: 02 March 2020, 11:42:39 »
A dozen afflicted 'Mechs out of thousands is not very many and easily manageable.  Of those, only the Stingers and Wasps see regular use in my group's campaigns, so there's only 2 'Mechs that are high priority to redo, and the changes are already in our books.

It's really not a big deal.

That's a dozen out of maybe half the TRO. I didn't look through all of them. I also didn't look through RS to see if there were variants with JJs when the TRO  variant didn't.  That number also doesn't include all the OMNIs 25 tons and under as their configurations can easily include jump jets. So the number is bigger than a dozen. 

2 in this campaign. And the next one?



Hmm, 

Now I have the idea of a rule where JJ's are a % of Mech Weight like Partial Wings.

Rounded up to the nearest .5 ton & with 1 slot per MP.


Lets look at the edges of each range.

20 Tons = 2.5% / MP
55 Tons = .91% / MP
60 Tons  =  1.67% / MP
85 Tons  =  1.18% / MP
90 Tons  =  2.22% / MP
100 Tons   =  2% / MP

Wow, you really do see the 20 ton mechs getting the shaft in this comparison.


For a nice average I'm thinking 1.5% of the Mech Weight for each MP of Jumping is a good middle ground


Reconfigured for several common mechs in each of those brackets above.

Wasp - 6MP = 2 Tons
Griffin - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Quickdraw - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Shogun - 3MP = 4 Tons
Highlander - 3MP = 4.5 Tons
Marauder-II - 3MP = 4.5 Tons


Honestly, I'd be okay with those amounts.  Feels like better balance at those break points, less meta gaming


That makes sense. Would you handle Superheavy Mechs the same way?

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #38 on: 02 March 2020, 12:29:15 »
2 in this campaign. And the next one?
The very few afflicted 'Mechs in the next one get redesigned on a case by case basis.  Like I said before.  I really don't know what part you're struggling with.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15642
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #39 on: 02 March 2020, 19:08:25 »
Personally, I'd really restrict these ultra-light jump jets to 'mechs under 20 tons.  That would require almost zero tweaking to canon designs.

Atarlost

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 262
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #40 on: 02 March 2020, 21:11:28 »
Then that might be okay, if limited to just XL Mechs built after 2519

I'd definitely go the other way.  They only get "dangerous" on XL mechs so make them only work with standard engines.  With the insanely fast XL engined designs ruled out they just give the 20-25 ton mechs a niche other than cheap filler (which is generally better filled with vehicles). 

Getting an excuse to redesign some mechs to be more interesting is a bonus for some of us. 

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5099
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #41 on: 02 March 2020, 22:26:38 »
I'd definitely go the other way.  They only get "dangerous" on XL mechs so make them only work with standard engines.  With the insanely fast XL engined designs ruled out they just give the 20-25 ton mechs a niche other than cheap filler (which is generally better filled with vehicles). 
I think that he was referring to Ultralight BattleMechs, not to XL engines.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

RifleMech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #42 on: 07 March 2020, 03:20:59 »
The very few afflicted 'Mechs in the next one get redesigned on a case by case basis.  Like I said before.  I really don't know what part you're struggling with.

Yes, however some of those "few" mechs are some of the most mass produced in BattleTech. That ends up being a lot of mechs. Changes to their performance would have a snowball effect. Entire battles could be changed because the bugs are now more effective. Altering a battle could alter an entire campaign.


Personally, I'd really restrict these ultra-light jump jets to 'mechs under 20 tons.  That would require almost zero tweaking to canon designs.

I agree. One Mech variant with limited production being changed doesn't change things. Changing hundreds of thousands of mechs changes a lot.


I think that he was referring to Ultralight BattleMechs, not to XL engines.


That's right. Sorry for the confusion.   :-[


Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #43 on: 07 March 2020, 14:35:14 »
Yes, however some of those "few" mechs are some of the most mass produced in BattleTech. That ends up being a lot of mechs. Changes to their performance would have a snowball effect. Entire battles could be changed because the bugs are now more effective. Altering a battle could alter an entire campaign.
The most mass produced 'mechs are the Bugs, which we've already changed.  This debate has taken more time than it took for me to redo the Bugs.  And no, the change to scouts has not had a snowball effect in our matches.  Thus far, it's just made <30t jumpers more useful and nice to use in general.

The common Bugs like the Stinger and Wasp are generic and used by all factions, so all the factions benefit and the idea that there being a lighter jump jet in a specific subset of situations would cause some sort of butterfly effect that changes the look of the BT universe is moot.

RifleMech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #44 on: 08 March 2020, 10:14:50 »
The most mass produced 'mechs are the Bugs, which we've already changed.  This debate has taken more time than it took for me to redo the Bugs.  And no, the change to scouts has not had a snowball effect in our matches.  Thus far, it's just made <30t jumpers more useful and nice to use in general.

The common Bugs like the Stinger and Wasp are generic and used by all factions, so all the factions benefit and the idea that there being a lighter jump jet in a specific subset of situations would cause some sort of butterfly effect that changes the look of the BT universe is moot.


Not really. If bug mechs are harder to kill they're now taking shots away from other units that would have been hit had the bugs been weaker. They're also more effective back stabbers and then there's the Bug Charges. They could now work as the bugs aren't so easy to kill. So yes, there could be a butterfly effect. 

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #45 on: 08 March 2020, 11:21:03 »
Not really.
I've used them and tested them.  You have not.  As such, I really don't have any interest in your opinion.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15642
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #46 on: 08 March 2020, 11:31:42 »
I'd be curious to see if your change makes Mercer Ravannion's theories workable.  If so, then I'd definitely say it would impact the wider universe.  By your own admission:
Quote
Thus far, it's just made <30t jumpers more useful and nice to use in general.

7.5% extra mass to throw at weapons and armor is not trivial when you weigh 20 tons.

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #47 on: 08 March 2020, 15:11:07 »
I'd be curious to see if your change makes Mercer Ravannion's theories workable.  If so, then I'd definitely say it would impact the wider universe.  By your own admission:
7.5% extra mass to throw at weapons and armor is not trivial when you weigh 20 tons.
I had to look up Ravannion.  It's an interesting read.

I'd argue his ideas were workable, he just picked the wrong horse to run.  The canon vanilla Stinger & Wasp manage to be simultaneously too slow for its size, too poorly armored for its speed, and too toothless for the risk it poses to the pilot.  Something like the Locust 1E beats them in each area while being cheaper, and would be much more workable as a swarm 'Mech, and it would actually be cheaper (C-Bill wise, not BV) to field.  The Mongoose (MON-67) would essentially be like a Locust on steroids, though no longer cheaper than Stingers & Wasps.  And if you don't require the emphasis on "cheap", there's always the Jenner.  Any of these, though they might still not have won the engagements, would have fared better.

It's an interesting idea though, if the Wasps & Stingers had ULJJs during Mercer's battles, would that have shift the tide in Mercer's battles?  It's possible.  Of course, using the extra weight for speed and another jump jet increases the cost by around 100k C-Bills, which is not a small amount.  Since Mercer Ravannion was so cost conscious, he might have then turned to Fleas (FLE-14) as his go-to swarm mech.

Is there a scenario pack for Mercer's swarm scenarios?  That change might be worth testing out on the field.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15642
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Ultra-Light Jump Jets
« Reply #48 on: 08 March 2020, 15:31:56 »
There's a scenario in the Fox's Teeth book (pages 14-15 refer).  The scenario pits a Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wasp and Stinger (all pristine) against 2 Wasps, 4 Stingers, and one Shadow Hawk (all but one damaged), though there are specific victory conditions (which give a lot of points to Ravannion for exiting units off the far side of the map).

 

Register