Author Topic: Warship Race Redux  (Read 92691 times)

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #690 on: 13 May 2020, 05:27:40 »
First, thanks for moving the conversation here.

As to the relative power of the TC as opposed to the RWR, my underlying rationales were largely as follows:

1.)  The RWR is about a century older than the TC, allowing more time for economic growth.
I had not considered that part, TBH. Still, the Calderon expedition had in fact been steadily expanding even before the Concordat's official founding in 2335, having been in there since the 2250's. By comparison the RWR's founder immediately announced its founding upon arrival in 2250 when his fledgling republic had barely more than a basic settlement and a pirate fleet to its name.
2.)  The RWR was significantly greater in territorial extent, both on the older maps I could find and at its height.  Territory doesnt map  1:1 to economic power, of course, look at the Hegemony!  But its not a bad starting place.
The real kicker is whether the central government is invested in developing these worlds and the people living in them, and historically, the Amarises weren't up until the post-Reunification War which will be discussed in a bit. By comparison, the TC has always put a premium on educating its people.
3.)  By 2750, the RWR had the economic power to be a springboard for the Coup.  While never quite matching the big 5, it always seemed to me to come the closest to doing so.  (Followed directly and fairly closely by the TC, which seemed to usually be the strongest of the periphery powers after the RWR is wrecked in the secession wars)
The Coup was implied to be a long range plan hatched not long after the Reunification Wars when the Amarises, spiteful bastards that they were, thought themselves unfairly treated by the Star League they had sworn allegiance to(and suffered through the ignominy of a coup d'etat for). What's more, the secret armies were built up on funds embezzled through Stefan's friendship with Richard. Much of it was actually built by TH companies before being shuffled through several cutouts and funneled into the secret armies. Very few of it was actually built by RWR companies. An industrial powerhouse, the RWR was never made out to be.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #691 on: 13 May 2020, 06:09:09 »
Those are some arguments for juggling the numbers if I ever run another one of these.  In the meantime, I’d just chant ‘AU’ and ‘Fasanomics’ until the cognitive dissonance declines.

As someone who never lost an opportunity to lambast the BTU writers for Getting It Wrong, it is educational to find myself on the other side of the shelling. :)
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 06:20:01 by marcussmythe »

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #692 on: 13 May 2020, 08:19:32 »
A note on maintenance.

As we are starting to see people cut their maintenance budget by at least small amounts to allow for further construction, I figured I would take the opportunity to give you a general ballpark of how it works.

The normal Maintenance Value, 1/2 of the build cost over ten years, is taken as the default because that is the most efficient level of maintenance/training/cannon-ball polishing for the effect you get out of it.

For every 10% less than the 'normal' amount, the unit will suffer a roughly 20% reduction in combat utility, trending to a net value around 0 effectiveness at 50% of normal maintenance paid. (actually higher, but they might also MUTINY or switch sides when the shooting starts, so lets call it 'zero')

For every 10% more than the normal amount paid, the unit will be roughly 5% more valuable in combat, to a limit of about 200% of full maintenance being paid in exchange for functioning at 150% effectiveness.  Thus, if you were willing to DOUBLE what you are paying in maintenance, you can train your crews so hard that 2 ships would be roughly a match for 3.

You will notice that both sides of the equation are on average losing propositions, with the money saved/money spent not being equal to the combat power lost/gained.  This is by intention, as normal maintenance is should be normal.

Still, it does let you slack off maintenance for a turn or two to help finish a set of builds, or if you've run your books in the red a while and want to get it paid off before the national leader orders your favorite Dreadnought sent to the scrapyards to cover the difference.  In the alternate, it lets you blow a ton of money to make your fleet punch well above its weight, which may be handy if you have a sense that a Big War is coming - but one elite ship is still going to be less powerful in combat than two merely average ones. 

(As an aside, such training would also have an effect on things like high risk jumps, sensor performance, ability to react to unexpected situations, yadda - but those are harder to codify in numbers and are less likely to come up.  Still, there might be some value in picking a ship or two, paying the huge bill, and having them be prize/advertising/flag units, used for important missions like traveling through time to save whales to save your capital)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #693 on: 13 May 2020, 08:36:56 »
Bah, my capital never had whales. Get those space hippies of my planet, and stop stealing scientists.
Though, as someone has said, better trained, better equipped troops can hold their own against their adversaries far better than linear arithmetic would indicate.
The diminishing returns, I believe, lie in how often that works - a small elite force can hit the enemy where it hurts. the next two will just hit the first one's hands.  xp
Now, the question is: Will reducing the base maintenance also reduce how much extra you have to spend to increase performance on those ships? Or is that a static?
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #694 on: 13 May 2020, 09:59:22 »
Bah, my capital never had whales. Get those space hippies of my planet, and stop stealing scientists.
Though, as someone has said, better trained, better equipped troops can hold their own against their adversaries far better than linear arithmetic would indicate.
The diminishing returns, I believe, lie in how often that works - a small elite force can hit the enemy where it hurts. the next two will just hit the first one's hands.  xp
Now, the question is: Will reducing the base maintenance also reduce how much extra you have to spend to increase performance on those ships? Or is that a static?

If we end up adopting a tech tree, that has techs that lower maintenance cost, I envision those numbers would be relative to that lower value.

That said, we do not have an agreement on the new tech tree (though I am happy with it, it appears others are not, and I've not checked with Smegish yet) so we dont know what it would look like if implemented.

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #695 on: 13 May 2020, 10:13:30 »
That said, we do not have an agreement on the new tech tree (though I am happy with it, it appears others are not, and I've not checked with Smegish yet) so we dont know what it would look like if implemented.

My only issue with the tech tree is that we have blank spots.

As much as I want to think that this game will last long enough to buy 50 tech upgrades in each category I can't assume that it will.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #696 on: 13 May 2020, 10:16:38 »
My only issue with the tech tree is that we have blank spots.

As much as I want to think that this game will last long enough to buy 50 tech upgrades in each category I can't assume that it will.

Well, thats the thing.  You can have fast tech progress and a better chance of seeing the toys that come later, or you can have slow tech progress that mirrors BT history, and less chance of doing so.

Thats.. kinda all the choices there are.  Fast or slow.

I mean, I suppose we could talk about making each turn 30 or 50 years?  But... that just doesnt feel right.  10 seems about as long as I can see without it feeling like you are totally disconnected from evens.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 10:18:12 by marcussmythe »

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #697 on: 13 May 2020, 11:47:17 »
I'm a fan of going full on AU with only tangential links to what happened in cannon.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #698 on: 13 May 2020, 12:28:58 »
I took the time to also make a version. Just because that seems to be the hot new thing.  :thumbsup:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjFupQ_eEGwP91QCkePKO5D2D74B3gs_0C587TW_mZk/edit?usp=sharing
Well, I'm fine with whatever.

hmm. Could use blank spots as "take a break, get it free/very cheap", or pay to power through and research now. Fast progress would incur a cost.
Alternatively, have blank lines that you'll have to research once each, with your research slot from whatever column you currently need the least.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 12:32:14 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #699 on: 13 May 2020, 12:56:45 »
I took the time to also make a version. Just because that seems to be the hot new thing.  :thumbsup:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjFupQ_eEGwP91QCkePKO5D2D74B3gs_0C587TW_mZk/edit?usp=sharing
Well, I'm fine with whatever.

hmm. Could use blank spots as "take a break, get it free/very cheap", or pay to power through and research now. Fast progress would incur a cost.
Alternatively, have blank lines that you'll have to research once each, with your research slot from whatever column you currently need the least.

Hmm.  Interesting.  Would need details on what all the new techs do.  Maybe fill them in below and hyperlink them, just because there are so many.

I'm concerned that it may be too long?   I know someone wants his Jump Capable (IE, useful) Caspers before summer of 2021...  And I might keep the research rules simpler.

As for the 20:1 conversion.. the intent of the subcap and other techs was to make that unnecessary, for purposes of keeping dropships in the game.  If your planning on giving 20:1 to fighters...  I really feel that would take us back to carriers becoming the only warship.

Beyond that, while Id like to see details on what you think everything does, and maybe look at Jester's version for ideas (or vice versa!), but its not a bad start.

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #700 on: 13 May 2020, 12:59:00 »
There isnt a bright line.

My gut ‘sense of things’ is that it will depend on how much trouble you are in (The Taurian Admiralty can justify a lot more debt spending than the Capellan Confederation), how strong central authority is (the FWLN probably has more leeway to overrun its budget than the DCN) how long youve been carrying it, etc.

For a one turn thing, you would guess you can probably get away with a 5-10% overrun pretty safely.
Great. My turn should be up in a few hours then.
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #701 on: 13 May 2020, 13:42:10 »
Those are some arguments for juggling the numbers if I ever run another one of these.  In the meantime, I’d just chant ‘AU’ and ‘Fasanomics’ until the cognitive dissonance declines.

As someone who never lost an opportunity to lambast the BTU writers for Getting It Wrong, it is educational to find myself on the other side of the shelling. :)
Or I dunno... Have the TC realign its spending priorities in the wake of the disaster to at least put the budget on parity with the RWR.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #702 on: 13 May 2020, 13:56:22 »
Hmm.  Interesting.  Would need details on what all the new techs do.  Maybe fill them in below and hyperlink them, just because there are so many.

I'm concerned that it may be too long?   I know someone wants his Jump Capable (IE, useful) Caspers before summer of 2021...  And I might keep the research rules simpler.

Beyond that, while Id like to see details on what you think everything does, and maybe look at Jester's version for ideas (or vice versa!), but its not a bad start.
Oh, I'm aware that's a lot. Which was unexpected, because I set out to just add 2 levels of "improve weapon X", so we could have something to research that would differentiate the realms.
The idea was that those were very generic, to be fluffed by the player buying them, so it would be easy to keep track of them, just having a list with 5 numbers for each player.
I marked most of them with mouse-over commentary.
Then I started adding all the remaining things I could think of that didn't have unlocks, and then I checked one on Sarna and found more.  ;D You know, classic run-away.
Trying to keep it palatable for the GM was also the reason I made descriptions like "5% better" or "evades first shot". I actually took a look at Jesters approach, and found it to be quite humorous.  :thumbsup: If I understood him correctly, his approach was basically to add fluff to the empty spaces.

As for the time it takes to get to X... that is indeed a conundrum. :-\ If we go too fast, we might get too many rapid changes, and if the game lasts long enough, we run out of techs.
If we go too slow, we won't see half of it. Not being a GM, I obviously don't know how close you two are to burnout, which is the biggest factor in these calculations.
An option would be to split the tech tree into 4 trees, but limit our progress to 2-3 a turn, thereby allowing players to advance very quickly in the specific area they covet.
Edit: We have at least 2 turns to think about it before it actually makes a difference, I reckon.

Quote
As for the 20:1 conversion.. the intent of the subcap and other techs was to make that unnecessary, for purposes of keeping dropships in the game.  If your planning on giving 20:1 to fighters...  I really feel that would take us back to carriers becoming the only warship.
Ah, no. I meant except fighters vs. Capital armour. This would make base dropships at least require a full salvo to kill, and increase the viability of their base armament while giving Warships a reason to mount standard scale weapons, as opposed to just NL/35s or later SCLs.
Again, if you calculate dropships as just "% of warship tonnage", then roll dice against each other, what scale we use is irrelevant.  ;)
Actually, what does a shielded RCS do?
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 13:59:45 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #703 on: 13 May 2020, 14:02:51 »
My recollection is that the 'Shielded' RCS is a Robot Control System that doesnt get casually turned off because a Guardian ECM unit wandered nearby.  IE 'Actually Useable RCS'.

Edit:  Mouseovers are not working for me.  Is there a button I need to hit?

Edit Edit:  Im feeling zero burnout now, lots of bouncy enthusiasm, lots of eagerness to see what people do and how it all spins into madness.  That said, burnout tends to come out of the blue for me, like hitting a wall.

Edit Edit Edit: If we return Droppers to 'standard' rules, then fighters would have a definite role - murdering PWS in job lots. 

So, and its just a thought... we should if we are smart get a player or two to volunteer to be on standby if the GM(s) crash.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 14:12:35 by marcussmythe »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #704 on: 13 May 2020, 14:29:54 »
I've updated the permissions to make comments visible.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjFupQ_eEGwP91QCkePKO5D2D74B3gs_0C587TW_mZk/edit?usp=sharing

I'm trying to think of a way to have a variable tech speed... got nothing, though.
We could play with blanks and how they interact, though. They could just be a cost increase that you can "research away".
They could be a regular tech you have to pay for that does nothing.
They could be a single bar you have to research once to be gone, or one "tech" per column to individually overcome.
They could have a discount, or not - and if they do, is it based on people over it, or based on how many of the previous techs you had?
They could also just disappear after a set amount of turns, to be manipulated by the GMs as they see fit.
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kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #705 on: 13 May 2020, 14:44:07 »
Or I dunno... Have the TC realign its spending priorities in the wake of the disaster to at least put the budget on parity with the RWR.

The FS should just finish the TC off.

I'm sure the CC would lend a hand.

And then we wouldn't have to worry about them.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #706 on: 13 May 2020, 14:45:05 »
Regarding the TC:  I think for purposes of this thread, further discussion of the original timeline Taurian Concordat is off topic.  This version is what it is and are where they are, and there is fertile ground for discussion in the realm of 'what should they do from here?'

If I were playing the TC, I would be buying spare warships until I can get my yards back in shape, and probably doing my new yards all at one world, as far as possible from the FedSuns, and then covered with a significant budget fraction in fixed defenses.  Or in the alternate, I might throw class 2 yards (which are, relatively speaking, inexpensive - the biggest cost savings is the jump from 250kt to 500 kt) down all OVER the place, both providing easy support and sustainment, a strong industrial base, and also making them very hard to attack.

On the other hand, I might introduce my favorite offspring to the most eligible offspring of the leaders of the UHC and arrange a lot of time for them to be alone together.



On the subject of the tech tree:

That looks interesting.  Nothing I am violently opposed to.  I think the placement of ‘Standard Battlemechs’ -after- some advanced tech weaponry is a bit odd, but then Primitive Equipment never much interested me as a player and Im not at all clear on when 'Standard' Equipment replaced Primitive.

That said, in an endeavour like this the default position is and must be ‘dont change the rules without a compelling reason’.  Last game saw some serious rules change whiplash, and that hurt it, so lets give everyone some time to chime in before this gets chased any further.

Similarly with Pocket Warships/Combat Droppers vs Warships.  If everyone wants Castrums to Be A Thing, we could discuss changing the PWS rules to let them Be A Thing.  At the same time, I will remain uncomfortable with the idea of a Leopard surviving an HNPPC to the face, due to the whole ‘gun weighs nearly as much as ship’ issue.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 15:17:25 by marcussmythe »

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #707 on: 13 May 2020, 15:26:47 »
My turn is up.

In regards to pocket Warships, I would like for them to exist, although I acknowledge my focus on dropship collars on my Marik's combined with large jumpship fleet means that it gives me an advantage that might unbalance making those decisions as opposed to a pure combat focus.

Finally, I have been wanting to write up a short description of the most important admirals in my fleet, to hep give you guys an idea how they are likely to jump and add to the divided nature of the League, but I'm not sure if I should post it here, in the In Character thread, or in a new thread. Where would you guys want me to put it?
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #708 on: 13 May 2020, 15:29:14 »
Huge favor to ask of everyone.  Can you please post at least ending unit totals for all classes and types for your turn?  If all you post is what was built, without starting or ending, I can lose my place very easily when updating the spreadsheet and I end up having to, in some cases, go back to your Turn 1 and do every. single. turns. construction. to figure out if Im starting in the right spot.


My turn is up.

In regards to pocket Warships, I would like for them to exist, although I acknowledge my focus on dropship collars on my Marik's combined with large jumpship fleet means that it gives me an advantage that might unbalance making those decisions as opposed to a pure combat focus.

Finally, I have been wanting to write up a short description of the most important admirals in my fleet, to hep give you guys an idea how they are likely to jump and add to the divided nature of the League, but I'm not sure if I should post it here, in the In Character thread, or in a new thread. Where would you guys want me to put it?

My thought is it goes in the 'In Character' thread along with your turn, until or unless we start writing a TRO, and that sounds like an awesome idea.  Interviews?  Speeches?  Biography/Schoolbooks from the Naval School?  Lots of cool ways to unpack that.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 15:59:49 by marcussmythe »

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #709 on: 13 May 2020, 15:39:15 »
I was thinking textbook style, but having a brief speech to establish their character sounds like a good idea too.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #710 on: 13 May 2020, 16:35:23 »
That said, in an endeavour like this the default position is and must be ‘dont change the rules without a compelling reason’.  Last game saw some serious rules change whiplash, and that hurt it, so lets give everyone some time to chime in before this gets chased any further.
...  At the same time, I will remain uncomfortable with the idea of a Leopard surviving an HNPPC to the face, due to the whole ‘gun weighs nearly as much as ship’ issue.
Absolutely. Never change a running system, they say. Well, it must've been right once.  ;)
Reason really I'd go for a bunch of upgrades to turn dropships into a combat force; it means it hasn't happened yet, and won't for a few turns, so it is no sudden change.
I would like pocket warships to be a thing, but, in line with the historic idea of a warship race, I am not aiming at CBT equivalency, and more at the 19th century force mix with torpedo boats/destroyers as a fleet screen/coastal defense.
...
That is actually the motivation for me suggesting 20/1 base.^^ Even a medium NPPC would have sufficient power to wipe the leopard off the charts. An Isegrimm or Taihou, however, would take more to remove.

But let's shelve this for now, for we have two weeks time to come to a decision, and that decision may very well be "We'll decide in two weeks".  ;D

I will endeavour to finish my turn before the weekend, and will include final numbers for my ships. The pre-turn numbers are effectively in the maintenance listing.
Should I just update them directly in the spreadsheet, too?

You sure put some effort in, Venser. :thumbsup: Trying to make the FWL look as loony as possible?
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #711 on: 13 May 2020, 17:00:41 »

You sure put some effort in, Venser. :thumbsup: Trying to make the FWL look as loony as possible?
What did I do this turn that is so loony? And you haven't seen anything yet, my admirals that will be competeing to replace Michaels once he retires/dies are going to be interesting characters with some interesting ideas.
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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #712 on: 13 May 2020, 17:04:18 »
Absolutely. Never change a running system, they say. Well, it must've been right once.  ;)
Reason really I'd go for a bunch of upgrades to turn dropships into a combat force; it means it hasn't happened yet, and won't for a few turns, so it is no sudden change.
I would like pocket warships to be a thing, but, in line with the historic idea of a warship race, I am not aiming at CBT equivalency, and more at the 19th century force mix with torpedo boats/destroyers as a fleet screen/coastal defense.
...
That is actually the motivation for me suggesting 20/1 base.^^ Even a medium NPPC would have sufficient power to wipe the leopard off the charts. An Isegrimm or Taihou, however, would take more to remove.

But let's shelve this for now, for we have two weeks time to come to a decision, and that decision may very well be "We'll decide in two weeks".  ;D

I will endeavour to finish my turn before the weekend, and will include final numbers for my ships. The pre-turn numbers are effectively in the maintenance listing.
Should I just update them directly in the spreadsheet, too?

You sure put some effort in, Venser. :thumbsup: Trying to make the FWL look as loony as possible?

If you still have spreadsheet access (I dont remember who all does), its because Smegish (keeper of the sheet) wants you to, so please, feel free, and/or feel free to double check me.

Once you are done, I think were just missing PoR and FS.  Fast turnaround this time!  That said, 2 weeks is the default, so PoR and FS shouldnt feel rushed.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #713 on: 13 May 2020, 17:56:28 »
I have updated my page of the spreadsheet( :o holy crap, they are all different) with the available data.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #714 on: 13 May 2020, 18:04:20 »
Man if I knew i could go like waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over my budget I would have had the corrupt Admiral in charge for Decades lol

I have not kept up with the tech comments.....at all.... I should be caught up on all the changes... eventually lol

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #715 on: 13 May 2020, 18:09:09 »
Man if I knew i could go like waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over my budget I would have had the corrupt Admiral in charge for Decades lol

I have not kept up with the tech comments.....at all.... I should be caught up on all the changes... eventually lol

Im not saying 'way over'.  Im saying '5 or 10% or so is probably okay, debt carries over, dont keep it up too long* or bad things** will happen.

*You arent sure how long this is.  Find out!
** You arent sure what this means.  Find out!

In general, the idea of deficit spending is as an emergency Oh-Crap button to keep people in the game and competitive if they are in trouble - NOT to turn into a permanent debt-financed chunk of extra income.

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #716 on: 13 May 2020, 18:15:38 »
And I planned my next turn to pay off all the debt as long as nothing goes really wrong.

EDIT: I have added the personalities to my turn.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 19:17:35 by VensersRevenge »
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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #717 on: 13 May 2020, 19:29:16 »
And I planned my next turn to pay off all the debt as long as nothing goes really wrong.

EDIT: I have added the personalities to my turn.

I love this thing.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #718 on: 14 May 2020, 08:01:46 »
So, I heard there were ships around I could buy?  O:-)
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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #719 on: 14 May 2020, 08:16:54 »
The Crappies are selling off their older stuff. The taurians would snatch all of it up, but I figured I should let the players get a look in at least. :P