Register Register

Poll

Who do you believe would persevere most of the time?

Cataphract: strictly superior >65%
4 (9.5%)
Cataphract: marginally superior >55%-65%
8 (19%)
About even: 45-55% each
11 (26.2%)
Thunderbolt: marginally superior >55%-65%
13 (31%)
Thunderbolt: strictly superior >65%
4 (9.5%)
I want to be an observer [No Vote]
2 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Voting closed: 30 March 2020, 19:51:50

Author Topic: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S  (Read 1274 times)

Minemech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1517
Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« on: 18 March 2020, 19:51:50 »
 This is a match between the CTF-2X Cataphract, and the TDR-5S Thunderbolt.
 Given an assumption of 100 games, in random terrain, with 4/5 pilots, who do you think will persevere more often, and around what percentage of the time?
 Note: This is the Cataphract with the large laser.

Empyrus

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5486
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #1 on: 18 March 2020, 20:16:29 »
Tricky.
The Cataphract has excessive rear armor for this scenario, and mildly worse cooling.
The Thunderbolt has better ranged capability in that it can start firing earlier. Also has better close-range damage potential in theory but in practice the LRM minimum range makes things difficult.
The T-bolt having ammo spread to multiple locations may be an issue.

BV is pretty close. I'm inclined to give the Cataphract marginal superiority.
Valiant VLT-3E variant, Blade BLD-XR variant, Void (Minelayer) for fan funding
(Also Atlas AS7-K2)

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15587
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #2 on: 18 March 2020, 20:49:04 »
The Thunderbolt has rule of cool on its side, so I went for it (if only marginally).

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8159
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #3 on: 18 March 2020, 21:31:25 »
If the choice was which one I’d rather drive, it’s the T-bolt, hands down.  I hate to say that, I’m really not a member of the Cult of the Thunderbolt.  But it’s a more versatile design, all around, than the CTF.  Better equipped for a wider range of missions, and all that.    And the Tbolt didn’t originate as a frankenmech.  But in a strict one-on-one, it’s a tougher call.  I’d still probably take the Tbolt, though.  It’s got a better volume of fire at pretty much all ranges, more sensible armor layout, and (slightly) better cooling.  The CTF is a bit better at hole punching, which can be important.  But I think the Tbolt has the better chance most of the time.  The occasional lucky head crit with the AC10 could be a game changer once in a while, though.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 657
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #4 on: 18 March 2020, 22:31:54 »
I like the T-bolt 5S and it's a very versatile all rounder, but the Cataphract 2X is a stone-cold killer for it's era.

Although it has fewer heat sinks it has ludicrously simple heat curve where you just swap the large laser for the short ranged armament as the ranged brackets demand and you can fire all your lasers if you ever run out of ammo.  It also has a good combination of hole punchers and crit-seekers.  The only place the T-bolt has an advantage is at long range as the Cataphract doesn't really have an answer to it's LRM, but once the autocannon and large lasers enter the fight they will trade fire on very equal terms, with the Cataphract's superior hole punching and crit-seeking carrying the day for me.

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

abou

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1400
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #5 on: 18 March 2020, 22:39:39 »
I think I'm going to go with the 2X. It's a beefy machine. The AC/10 and large laser combo is a serious threat.

Firesprocket

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2474
  • I like sausage
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #6 on: 18 March 2020, 23:27:15 »
I chose the Cataphract in a bare margin.  While it's likely to explode with a crit to the left torso, it's more likely that the T-Bolt is going to explode over in crits to 3 different locations.

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21689
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #7 on: 19 March 2020, 00:29:32 »
While I've just had better experience with Thuds, it's a pretty even matchup.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10346
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #8 on: 19 March 2020, 01:56:15 »
The 2X has more hole punching ability on it's side without exactly being a slouch to crit seek afterwords and thanks to the AC-10 it has the potential to end any fight with one lucky shot.

Still the Thud has just enough of it's own tricks I think it can hold it's own fairly well.

I'd peg it at about 60% in favor of the 'Phract if the terrain is open enough for the Thud's LRM to be useful.  If not then I think odds go up in favor of the 'Phract.

Fat Guy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2828
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #9 on: 19 March 2020, 09:07:58 »
T-Bolt better at range. Cataphract better up close.

Went marginal T-Bolt due to better armor and ammo being more spread out.
I have spoken.


Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2127
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #10 on: 19 March 2020, 10:58:36 »
I'm a huge T-Bolt fan, and it's designed to handle a wide range of missions, but one-on-one dueling against a 'Phract is most likely going to come down to random damage locations and critical hits.  I think the TDR will very possibly deliver more total damage, but having 3 ammo bombs instead of one should even out the results.  Basically, I see the outcome in any single match as too close to predict.  I'd still prefer to run the TDR instead of the CTF in any situation that mattered, as I've got far more experience with it.

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 994
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #11 on: 19 March 2020, 13:33:34 »
I'm a huge T-Bolt fan, and it's designed to handle a wide range of missions, but one-on-one dueling against a 'Phract is most likely going to come down to random damage locations and critical hits.  I think the TDR will very possibly deliver more total damage, but having 3 ammo bombs instead of one should even out the results.  Basically, I see the outcome in any single match as too close to predict.  I'd still prefer to run the TDR instead of the CTF in any situation that mattered, as I've got far more experience with it.

I put in a toss-up, but a point about the torso bombs.  Baring a lucky TAC, the LRM ammo on the TDR-5S is in the center torso.  A well played Bolt will want to keep the Pracht from closing.  14-11 hexes and 7 hexes are sweet spots for the Bolt.  By the time things get close, the Thud will want to have burned through at least one of its two LRM bins, preferably well into the second before he starts to have serious minimum range penalties.

The Thud can't do much about the MG ammo in the left arm, and the right torso SRM bin.  Fire both as often as possible.  Riding the heat scale, in a close fight alternate LL, 3ML, 2MG plus walk (18 heat) with 3ML, 2MG, 1 SRM-2 plus walk (12 heat).

The Cataphract has simpler heat curve.  15 to 10 hexes, both big guns and up to run is heat neutral.  In close, drop the large laser out, and have the AC/10, 2 ML, and SRM-4 plus run constantly.

Actually, what about loading infernos into the Thunderbolt for the fight?  Use them to upset the Phract's heat balance?

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8159
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #12 on: 19 March 2020, 14:46:39 »
I'm a huge T-Bolt fan, and it's designed to handle a wide range of missions, but one-on-one dueling against a 'Phract is most likely going to come down to random damage locations and critical hits.  I think the TDR will very possibly deliver more total damage, but having 3 ammo bombs instead of one should even out the results.  Basically, I see the outcome in any single match as too close to predict.  I'd still prefer to run the TDR instead of the CTF in any situation that mattered, as I've got far more experience with it.
If you're running the TDR sensibly, most of the LRM ammo should be gone by the time crits become much of a worry (barring a lucky TAC).  Also, the fact that the TDR's ammo is spread across three locations may well be a point in its favor.  In each location, there's a lot of other stuff that can get critted.  The CTF's right torso has an ML and three tons of ammo.  Get a crit there, and it's probably all over.  (Unless it's used up a lot of its ammo, an even if it has you can greatly reduce its firepower)
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Force of Nature

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 784
  • Battletech and Paintball. Life is good.
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #13 on: 19 March 2020, 18:41:04 »
How far apart are the two mechs starting? If they start out of range, then I see no reason why on turn one the Thuderbolt just stands still and dumps all of its MG and SRM 2 ammo. There you go, two out of three possible ammo explosion's are removed from play with no worry at all. Shoot all of your LRM 15 ammo from the TBolt as move in on the Cataphract, then move in further as needed...

Even if the mechs start within range, the Thunderbolt player can find cover and do the same ammo dump for a turn...

Thunderbolt for the win, but it will get beat up doing so.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 34438
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #14 on: 19 March 2020, 19:08:44 »
I would just dump one of them, likely the miniguns. As the duel progresses, you'll want every crit chance you can get.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

LastChanceCav

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2328
  • Repossessing the dispossessed ...
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #15 on: 19 March 2020, 22:01:26 »
Looks pretty even to me. Both do have marginal advantages over the other that will tell in individual matches as the die roll. Fighting it out 100 times should average those rolls out.

Cheers,
LCC
Last Chance Engineering - Bespoke Battlemechs for the refined gentleman.

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 994
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #16 on: 20 March 2020, 00:19:06 »
If you're running the TDR sensibly, most of the LRM ammo should be gone by the time crits become much of a worry (barring a lucky TAC).  Also, the fact that the TDR's ammo is spread across three locations may well be a point in its favor.  In each location, there's a lot of other stuff that can get critted.  The CTF's right torso has an ML and three tons of ammo.  Get a crit there, and it's probably all over.  (Unless it's used up a lot of its ammo, an even if it has you can greatly reduce its firepower)

I thought the -2X was like the -1X, and has the AC ammo in the same torso as the cannon?

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2127
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #17 on: 20 March 2020, 11:11:45 »
There is absolutely no way that the TDR can use up enough SRM or MG ammo to avoid blowing the 'Mech up if one of them does get hit.  The MGs are a significant part of its "up close and personal" firepower, without adding heat.  The SRMs are marginally more useful at short or medium range, but build heat, and I'd generally rather use the lasers instead of the occasional situation where you get both SRMs to hit.  Dump the SRM ammo if you feel the need, but not the MG ammo.  Personally, I'd keep the ammo for both and take the risk.  The TDR's ammo is pretty well padded with other items, so it's not as bad as it seems at first glance, but it's still a potentially fatal vulnerability.

As said, the CFT only has ammo in one location, but it's got minimal padding for that ammo, and therefore practically as much chance of exploding as the TDR until the late stages of the fight, when the CTF may have used up the ammo in at least one bin.

As I said earlier, I'd give the TDR marginally better odds, but still close enough to a draw that I chose the "even" outcome.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8159
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #18 on: 20 March 2020, 11:28:48 »
I thought the -2X was like the -1X, and has the AC ammo in the same torso as the cannon?
Nope.  All the AC ammo and SRM ammo is stored together in the RT, with nothing else but a ML.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 994
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #19 on: 20 March 2020, 12:52:23 »
Nope.  All the AC ammo and SRM ammo is stored together in the RT, with nothing else but a ML.

Do you mean left torso?  The -1X has the AC/10 in the RT, and the variant mentioned in TRO-3039 states it has a left arm mounted SRM-4 in place of the arm lasers, downgrades the RA PPC to a Large Laser, shifts the torso lasers to forward firing, and removes two hea tsinks for armor.  Nothing about shifting over the AC to the left torso.

Though from an engineering standpoint that would make the ammo feed, complex.  Not only would the cannon rounds have to cross the torso, so would the missiles to get up to the arm.

Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 657
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #20 on: 20 March 2020, 16:21:38 »
All this talk of booting ammo forgets that two can play at that game.  The Cataphract can easily dump a ton of it's AC-10 ammo if the pilot want's to improve the crit-padding of the left torso.  Ten rounds is still plenty to fight a single mech and if the pilot was smart he'd dump the depleted ton after getting in some long ranged fire but before he's at any risk of getting shot in the rear arc.

Further, dumping the T-bolt's MG or SRM ammo will decrease the machines short ranged firepower.  Do you really want to do that against a mech that already out-punches you at short range?

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8159
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #21 on: 20 March 2020, 17:05:10 »
Do you mean left torso?  The -1X has the AC/10 in the RT, and the variant mentioned in TRO-3039 states it has a left arm mounted SRM-4 in place of the arm lasers, downgrades the RA PPC to a Large Laser, shifts the torso lasers to forward firing, and removes two hea tsinks for armor.  Nothing about shifting over the AC to the left torso.

Though from an engineering standpoint that would make the ammo feed, complex.  Not only would the cannon rounds have to cross the torso, so would the missiles to get up to the arm.
Yes, I’m sorry.  I always get turned around when I’m looking at record sheets.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Greatclub

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1265
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #22 on: 21 March 2020, 19:39:11 »
The matchup would come down to init. rolls and the maps used, in my opinion

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 994
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #23 on: 22 March 2020, 14:36:32 »
All this talk of booting ammo forgets that two can play at that game.  The Cataphract can easily dump a ton of it's AC-10 ammo if the pilot want's to improve the crit-padding of the left torso.  Ten rounds is still plenty to fight a single mech and if the pilot was smart he'd dump the depleted ton after getting in some long ranged fire but before he's at any risk of getting shot in the rear arc.

Further, dumping the T-bolt's MG or SRM ammo will decrease the machines short ranged firepower.  Do you really want to do that against a mech that already out-punches you at short range?

Speaking of the dumping equation?  The Thunderbolt is better placed for that.

With the machine guns or SRM-2 you are only giving up two tons of dead weight design, and 4 points, but only under 3 hexes, for the machine gun or about 3 points on average for the SRM.

The LRM ammo is the one I'd most likely wind up dumping, once the fight gets to about 5 hexes or maybe four.  Far enough to avoid a backshot while doing it, but once it gets close enough that minimum range penalties get up around long range penalties.  Though depending on the number of shots left, I might just roll high to hit number LRM shots just to use the ammo.

Now the Cataphract is a better infighter.  But only while it still has that AC/10 in action.  You lose that and the Thunderbolt reclaims the close in fighter advantage, at least the same damage with better heat dissipation.  Dumping ammo and that AC/10 becomes 14 tons deadweight, or 20% of the mech's full up mass.

CrossfirePilot

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1977
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #24 on: 22 March 2020, 15:53:19 »
I'm going to go with the Cataphract, for a slight lead.  Because every time I have picked the T-Bolt its ammo has gone boomity boom on me.

Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 657
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #25 on: 22 March 2020, 21:11:13 »
Speaking of the dumping equation?  The Thunderbolt is better placed for that.

With the machine guns or SRM-2 you are only giving up two tons of dead weight design, and 4 points, but only under 3 hexes, for the machine gun or about 3 points on average for the SRM.

The LRM ammo is the one I'd most likely wind up dumping, once the fight gets to about 5 hexes or maybe four.  Far enough to avoid a backshot while doing it, but once it gets close enough that minimum range penalties get up around long range penalties.  Though depending on the number of shots left, I might just roll high to hit number LRM shots just to use the ammo.

Now the Cataphract is a better infighter.  But only while it still has that AC/10 in action.  You lose that and the Thunderbolt reclaims the close in fighter advantage, at least the same damage with better heat dissipation.  Dumping ammo and that AC/10 becomes 14 tons deadweight, or 20% of the mech's full up mass.

I didn't suggest dumping both tons of AC-10 ammo...

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19098
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #26 on: 23 March 2020, 12:06:11 »
So slight tweak . . . would your answers change if the following was in play-

Rapid Fire AC
Hot Load LRM
Rapid Fire MG
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15587
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #27 on: 23 March 2020, 18:35:10 »
My answer wouldn't... I already voted for the Thunderbolt, and two out of three of those rules advantage it.

Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 657
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #28 on: 23 March 2020, 21:22:55 »
My answer wouldn't... I already voted for the Thunderbolt, and two out of three of those rules advantage it.

True, but the T-bolt gains less from both rules than the Cataphract gains from rapid fire ACs...

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

Force of Nature

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 784
  • Battletech and Paintball. Life is good.
Re: Fight Night: CTF-2X vs TDR-5S
« Reply #29 on: 08 April 2020, 23:46:00 »
True, but the T-bolt gains less from both rules than the Cataphract gains from rapid fire ACs...

I agree.