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Author Topic: Motorized and Mechanized infantry  (Read 1639 times)

Drewbacca

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Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« on: 03 April 2020, 13:43:05 »
Just to be clear, I asked this before but can't find it on the forum, mechanized travels in light APCs and motorized has motorcycles and jeeps, right?

Sartris

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #1 on: 03 April 2020, 13:48:01 »
here are the official descriptions from TW:

Quote
Motorized: Equipped with a variety of light unarmored vehicles, motorized infantry move around the battlefield more readily than foot infantry, but are still no match for BattleMechs. Motorized infantry units serve the same duties as foot infantry and also serve as forward observers or reconnaissance personnel.

Mechanized: These troops work in close conjunction with vehicles and rely on them to move around the battlefield. A wide variety of mechanized forces see battlefield service from hover-sleds or armored jeeps to intrinsic APC or IFV transport, providing mechanized infantry with unprecedented maneuvering capabilities.

that said, the line between the two when it comes to depiction is... blurry, especially when considering the in-game combat capabilities.

as an example of the fuzzy split, this unit is classified as mechanized


as is this


but this is considered motorized (see the vehicle in the background compared to the other units)


if you're making your own, i would go by the TW descriptions rather than the 3085 depictions to avoid as many self-induced headaches as possible

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #2 on: 03 April 2020, 16:07:27 »
Don't forget that art is the lowest form of canon. Feel free to envision those units as looking very differently if it helps.
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Starfury

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #3 on: 05 April 2020, 10:29:03 »
The classic separation of motorized vs mechanized is as follows

Motorized infantry uses wheeled vehicles; mechanized uses tracked vehicles. For BT, mechanized also applies to hover units.  Jump infantry, marines (space and aquatic), mounted infantry, and foot infantry are also separate categories, as is battle armor and technically airborne infantry, though the last category gets really grey given the fact that infantry transported in vehicles doesn't take on the description of the vehicle, just how the infantry moves.

Daryk

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #4 on: 05 April 2020, 12:25:15 »
Personally, I refer to infantry transported by actual combat vehicles as "properly mechanized".

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #5 on: 05 April 2020, 13:22:52 »
Motorized infantry uses wheeled vehicles; mechanized uses tracked vehicles. For BT, mechanized also applies to hover units.

This is in no way accurate.

Motorized troops do not have a defined motive type, while mechanized can refer to wheeled, tracked, hover, VTOL, and minisub troops.

Motorized infantry are often portrayed in art as using wheeled vehicles, but no part of the rules clarify this, so we can't assume. All we know is that they stay on the ground, that's it.
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Wolf72

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #6 on: 05 April 2020, 18:55:54 »
all I got out of my TM was motorized had 3 ground movement. 

Mechanized that were hover, track, wheel got 5, 3, 4, respectively along with movement restrictions for each.
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Terrace

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #7 on: 05 April 2020, 19:01:54 »
All of this just demonstrates why the infantry construction rules badly need a rework. Motorized is too general (and too slow), while Mechanized should be dropped and replaced with the Foot Infantry with assigned tabletop-scale APCs it was designed to proxy for.

For fixes specific to Motorized infantry, I'd double or even triple their speed (or at least give them a "don't attack, just drive" speed), and set it so that the only times they go at a slower pace would be when they're hauling field guns/artillery. Encumbering Armor and Infantry Support Weapons would have no effect on their speed, no matter how much they weigh (we all know even a single AC/2 Field Gun eclipses even the heaviest Support Weapon by an order of magnitude).
« Last Edit: 06 April 2020, 00:17:23 by Terrace »

Asgo

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #8 on: 05 April 2020, 19:26:38 »
here are the official descriptions from TW:

that said, the line between the two when it comes to depiction is... blurry, especially when considering the in-game combat capabilities.

as an example of the fuzzy split, this unit is classified as mechanized


as is this


but this is considered motorized (see the vehicle in the background compared to the other units)


if you're making your own, i would go by the TW descriptions rather than the 3085 depictions to avoid as many self-induced headaches as possible
just from the TW quote and the art examples, I would say the distinction is between person and vehicle focus.
Motorized, is just infantry that is supposed to get around the battlefield at the speed of not necessarily specified or relevant vehicles.
Mechanized, is specific infantry vehicles that have a driver.
but that can be fuzzy.

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #9 on: 05 April 2020, 19:55:14 »
all I got out of my TM was motorized had 3 ground movement. 

Mechanized that were hover, track, wheel got 5, 3, 4, respectively along with movement restrictions for each.

TacOps added a couple more mechinf types, but aside from that, you've got everything you need right there.
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Wolf72

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #10 on: 05 April 2020, 20:33:57 »
TacOps added a couple more mechinf types, but aside from that, you've got everything you need right there.

right! the copter and microlite guys ... sheesh! I can't imagine flying around a battlefield in a microlite (I am using that correctly, right?)
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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #11 on: 07 April 2020, 19:22:18 »
I've always thought of Motorized as being 1-2 man Motorbikes.

Dirtbikes.
Those German WW2 1/2 track Bikes.
Maybe even some Korean War era Jeeps like on Mash.

AKA... ZERO armor.

They don't have proper terrain restrictions like Mechanized do, so I see whatever vehicles they have as being very small to fit in between trees & not slow down.  (I really love that German 1/2 bike, lol)

You also have special infantry types like Scuba that are "Motorized" so I see them using those underwater sea scooter devices.




Mechanized on the other hand carries a full squad in a single vehicle.  (Support Vehicle Scale)

Humvees w/ Armor.
The new replacements for Humvees that look like an armored 5 Ton truck.
WW2 era Half Tracks.


But not as large as the full on 10 Ton APCs from TRO3026 that were essentially M113's in scale.   (Combat Vehicle Scale)


For years I've used the term "MOBILE" infantry (A'la Starship Troopers) to describe platoons of the lighter infantry cruising around in APC/IFVs like the Maxim or Heavy APC series.
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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #12 on: 07 April 2020, 19:35:17 »
Throw light jeeps and maybe unarmored Humvees in with the motorized troops, and you and I are pretty much on the same page. :thumbsup:

For me, the most important difference is not in mobility, but in protection.

Motor troops take full damage from antipersonnel guns, and very little from most antiarmor ones, implying light unarmored vehicles with no protection from small-caliber fire, while the unit as a whole is so dispersed that a PPC or AC burst will only kill one or two troopers.

On the other end of the spectrum, mechinf take less damage from burst-fire weapons, but more from the big guns. That says the bigger vees are armored to protect against small arms, but they still cannot protect against big guns, and a mech-scale hit will kill or disable a vehicle carrying more troops, hence the greater effect.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #13 on: 07 April 2020, 21:04:36 »
I mentioned WW2/Korean era Jeeps like on Mash.  Just to cover the old picture of it on the cardboard markers w/ City Tech 1E

The real issue I have w/ Humvees is you start to get a break down when it comes to MP & speed.

Even a fully loaded hummer w/ 5 guys & a .50 cal on the roof is able to do better than 33 KPH (20MPH) which to me equates to 3MP movement.

Let alone the fact that if they are "support" troops they are supposed to be limited to 2MP.

The fact that some hummers can carry over a squad in them with the cargo truck bed version & it really feels less like 28 man platoons & more like 4 squad carriers.

I picture "motorized" as being at LEAST 3 "vehicles" per squad & up to 7 in the case of single rider dirt bikes.

I suppose we could call the 2-3 MP being "tactical" movement & they can do more flat out.
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Daryk

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #14 on: 07 April 2020, 21:06:56 »
A 25 rated engine can push a 5 ton wheeled chassis at a bit better than Humvee speed...

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #15 on: 07 April 2020, 21:26:30 »
I'm aware, but I'm not sure what the point of that is.

Is a Humvee 5 tons?
Are Mechanized infantry vehicles a full 5 tons each?
Do Mechanized infantry of any type go 9/14 MP ?

The vehicles for Mechanized are probably built using Support vehicle rules & should be restricted to about 3/5 speed.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #16 on: 07 April 2020, 23:54:28 »
How do your speed calculations change if you assume the movement phase also includes the troopers exiting their vehicles to fight right next to them as needed, and also getting back in?
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Hellraiser

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #17 on: 08 April 2020, 00:39:47 »
They don't.

My mechanized infantry all fight from inside the vehicles like proper infantry should  :thumbsup:

See below for examples. **

**    Quality of troops may vary.












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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #18 on: 08 April 2020, 02:17:16 »
I assure you, infantry dismounted from the M3 halftrack and M113 APC in order to fight.   :)

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #19 on: 08 April 2020, 02:53:45 »
I assure you, infantry dismounted from the M3 halftrack and M113 APC in order to fight.   :)

Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.


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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2020, 04:13:34 »
I'm aware, but I'm not sure what the point of that is.

Is a Humvee 5 tons?
Are Mechanized infantry vehicles a full 5 tons each?
Do Mechanized infantry of any type go 9/14 MP ?

The vehicles for Mechanized are probably built using Support vehicle rules & should be restricted to about 3/5 speed.
My point is that abstracted infantry is WAY too slow.

RifleMech

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #21 on: 08 April 2020, 04:56:04 »
right! the copter and microlite guys ... sheesh! I can't imagine flying around a battlefield in a microlite (I am using that correctly, right?)

Would it be much different than a Sopwith Camel?

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #22 on: 08 April 2020, 06:02:03 »
TacOps added a couple more mechinf types, but aside from that, you've got everything you need right there.
It's more complicated then that, the rules treat them as MechInf, but I'm pretty sure they also say that technically their Motorized Inf, there's the text: "The term “mechanized” as it is applied to these infantry is technically a misnomer. Other mechanized troop types (hover, wheeled and tracked) are deployed utilizing full-scale vehicles. As such, technically, these
specific troop type should be classified as “motorized,” but standard usage by most militaries terms them mechanized."

Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.
Could you explain why this is?

Wolf72

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #23 on: 08 April 2020, 08:27:29 »
Would it be much different than a Sopwith Camel?

not really ... any aircraft of that era should be terrified by any fire arms.
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Wolf72

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #24 on: 08 April 2020, 08:35:58 »
My point is that abstracted infantry is WAY too slow.

I feel like the infantry motor/mech veh's used to move them around are very, very small and overloaded with troops, which knocks their speed down.  At 5 tons, a hovercraft with a 10 rated engine weighing 1 ton (%20) still goes 10/15.  We simply don't have that level of knit-picky rules -- besides support vehicles.  I guess we could create support veh with a really small engine, then increase the weight to %20 for 'padding', but then it feels like a huge waste of weight.

I also wonder how fast is to fast for infantry to move and attack without some sort of computer assisted driver or gunner.  Could be worse, they could have to drive their kids around who won't behave in the back seat.
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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #25 on: 08 April 2020, 09:14:48 »
Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.

That's my point exactly. Mechinf are that slow because they don't spend the entire movement phase moving. They spend it moving AND dismounting AND remounting.

Players that want high ground MP and are willing to see an increased level of paperwork can use single-squad APCs and an metric boatload of infantry minis/counters. It's all about giving players choices and tradeoffs.

It's more complicated then that, the rules treat them as MechInf, but I'm pretty sure they also say that technically their Motorized Inf, there's the text: "The term “mechanized” as it is applied to these infantry is technically a misnomer. Other mechanized troop types (hover, wheeled and tracked) are deployed utilizing full-scale vehicles. As such, technically, these
specific troop type should be classified as “motorized,” but standard usage by most militaries terms them mechanized."
Could you explain why this is?

Fluff is irrelevant when we're talking about rules.
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Terrace

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #26 on: 08 April 2020, 09:47:36 »
How do your speed calculations change if you assume the movement phase also includes the troopers exiting their vehicles to fight right next to them as needed, and also getting back in?

With that in mind, just giving them a flank speed they can use by giving up the ability to shoot in that phase would work wonders to make them more viable, just like how typical heavy foot infantry (2 support weapons per squad) can do "Move OR shoot, but not both at once".

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #27 on: 08 April 2020, 09:53:13 »
I think there is a rule that allows a Foot Platoon to move 2MP,  its like Sprinting but for Infantry.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #28 on: 08 April 2020, 09:56:14 »
I assure you, infantry dismounted from the M3 halftrack and M113 APC in order to fight.   :)

Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.


Oh I know,  I was kidding around with the pictures.

That said, as mentioned, they "can" fight while mounted, its just not a good idea, unless your in a car chase in an 80's action film.


And I think this is good reasoning for the low speeds & if we have a "sprinting" rule that applies to all infantry it might go a long way to balance them.

Moving my Motorized Support platoons 4MP a turn till I get into shooting range would be nice.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Motorized and Mechanized infantry
« Reply #29 on: 08 April 2020, 10:08:20 »
With that in mind, just giving them a flank speed they can use by giving up the ability to shoot in that phase would work wonders to make them more viable, just like how typical heavy foot infantry (2 support weapons per squad) can do "Move OR shoot, but not both at once".
And I think this is good reasoning for the low speeds & if we have a "sprinting" rule that applies to all infantry it might go a long way to balance them.

Moving my Motorized Support platoons 4MP a turn till I get into shooting range would be nice.
It's been in TacOps for years. Any infantry (even BA) can use Fast Movement to gain an extra MP(so long as they aren't jumping), at the cost of being unable to fire, spot, or do anything else that turn. It's functionally the same as a mech Sprinting. Given that infantry often have several turns where they're not in range of anything to shoot at, I find myself using it all the time. If you combine it with the bonus for roads, your motor and mechanized infantry can manage some very impressive speeds at times.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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