Register Register

Author Topic: Will there never be another Succession War?  (Read 1044 times)

Dahmin_Toran

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 88
Will there never be another Succession War?
« on: 04 April 2020, 23:11:06 »
After four devastating Succession Wars, I think the prevailing wisdom is that one House cannot become First Lord through force of arms. After the Clan Invasion, a Second Star League was formed through diplomacy against a common enemy. I think the Clans proved the fact that a Star League cannot be formed unless all the Houses band together against a common foe. Much like the first Star League formed to fight against the Periphery. So do you think will will ever see another Succession War where all five Houses battle for a single one to become dominant?

*Just FYI I did have an alternate universe of a Fifth Succession War scenario in my mind instead of a Clan Invasion*

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7213
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #1 on: 04 April 2020, 23:26:50 »
The Jihad was more or less a 5th Succession War with the most fanatical of the WoB coming out of the gate swinging, creating their own state only to have it implode. I also fail to see how the fighting in the Dark Age doesn't mirror the succession wars.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19119
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #2 on: 04 April 2020, 23:37:15 »
None of the powers are trying to take the Star League throne except maybe the Falcons & Crusader Wolves and even that is more of a twisted interpretation.  DC is trying to pull off what they were doing in 1SW, which is knock the FedSuns out.  Cappies are trying to become a real power again.  League is reforming . . . and the Lyrans are just trying to survive right now.  None of them are fighting for the title.

The SCALE may match the Succession Wars but the goal is different- I will even give you the Jihad was the Blakists trying to reform the Hegemony and lead the Successor States into a new golden age.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10347
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #3 on: 04 April 2020, 23:44:11 »
The goals may shift now and again but this is Battletech, not peacetech so we can be sure there will always be some sort of conflict.

Orwell84

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 373
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #4 on: 04 April 2020, 23:58:07 »
A conflict formally named the Fifth Succession War? Doubtful, I get the impression that TPTB have steered away from explicit Succession Wars since c. 1990. The 4SW and War of '39 were pretty much the final rounds of the Houses' efforts to take the Star League throne. When Hanse failed to knock the Combine out of the running, that was it.

As Colt Ward has pointed out, three of the Houses are in no position to fight for the SL throne right now, and the other two have different priorities. In Shattered Fortress the Combine's leaders express concern over whether allying with the Capellans means the Tiger conquers Terra before the Dragon, but that's about the extent of it.

That said, with a new Star League in the works the various wars of the 3130s and '40s might retroactively be clept under the name of 'Fifth Succession War' or 'Dark Age Succession Wars', much as several different conflicts are collectively called World War II.
“By the Founder’s writ,
Clan Widowmaker is no more.
Its warriors submitted
To the holy crucible of combat
And emerged not through the other side.”
—The Remembrance (Clan Wolf), Passage 174, Verse 12, Lines 1–5

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10686
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #5 on: 05 April 2020, 00:17:19 »
The Star League was formally dissolved in 3067.  Nothing after that is about 'succeeding' any kind of defunct government.  The term 'succession war' has no reason to be used anymore.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Sartris

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10369
  • CR 21 Bullshit Elemental
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #6 on: 05 April 2020, 00:28:54 »
especially with the clans sniffing around terra. the delusional dream of a 2750 status quo has been gone for a long time

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19119
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #7 on: 05 April 2020, 01:04:16 »
The Star League was formally dissolved in 3067.  Nothing after that is about 'succeeding' any kind of defunct government.  The term 'succession war' has no reason to be used anymore.

We're still blaming Sunny, right?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Adrian Gideon

  • Battletech Developer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5444
  • Freshly Minted Line Developer
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #8 on: 05 April 2020, 01:08:26 »
Heh.
fb.com/battletechgame
@CGL_BattleTech
Eater of Shit Sandwiches

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17739
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #9 on: 05 April 2020, 02:20:33 »
Honestly, the general level of fighting that's happened since Gray Monday feels like another Succession War in scale.  Especially with the number of factions pushing to capture Terra.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19119
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #10 on: 05 April 2020, 03:32:25 »
Honestly, the general level of fighting that's happened since Gray Monday feels like another Succession War in scale.  Especially with the number of factions pushing to capture Terra.

But for the first time since Kerensky came stomping after Aramis, Terra can be captured for a single faction.  ComStar/Blakists in '58 was due to the schism it did not really change factional hands- like say become part of the FS or League.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17739
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #11 on: 05 April 2020, 10:47:35 »
Yes.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Drewbacca

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2910
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #12 on: 05 April 2020, 11:10:46 »
The way I see it, everything is a succession war, even the clan invasion, because everyone wants to rule the inner sphere.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7213
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #13 on: 05 April 2020, 11:29:43 »
I don't even see it as a attempt to rule the entire IS. First two, sure but the 3rd was just attempt to take and hold territory, same with the 4th ( only very one sided) The WoB may have wanted a new SL (with themselves at the lead) but it was mostly a violent power grab, as most SWs when you boil it down.

In short: It's at the very least on par with the SWs.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4609
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #14 on: 05 April 2020, 11:31:59 »
"Succession War" is a brand name really. Restoring the Star League is a justification for their fighting, and thus "Succession Wars." It doesn't really make the fighting any different, its just another name  for the fighting rather then "We want to rule humanity."

So you probably won't see a 5th Succession War because its not really "about restoring the Star League" any more, they're strictly in it for themselves at this point.

Although I suppose off hand that one thing that made the "Succession Wars" different was that all the factions were involved, rather than something slightly more limited like the War of 3039 or the FedCom Civil War that for the most part left some of the other factions out. I suppose we might need a new name for a Sphere-wide conflict.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #15 on: 05 April 2020, 11:38:50 »
The “Succession Wars” haven’t been about the First Lordship in a long time.  The 1SW was.  By the 2SW, no one really thought they were going to reestablish the Star League.  It was much more about getting a leg up on your opponent, achieving local/regional supremacy, but reforming the League was a distant dream at best, and already considered impossible at worst.  The House Lords all still claimed the title, but there wasn’t even a pretense of reestablishing the League during the 3SW.  The FedCom pact was seen as a thrust in the direction of reestablishing the League, but I’m inclined to take Hanse at his word that the 4SW itself was actually about vengeance for Operation Doppelganger.  Like ‘39, the 4th War wasn’t really a Sphere-wise war; Kurita and Marik were barely involved.  The Clan Invasion and Jihad were Succession Wars in all but name.  The post-Blackout violence has the scale of a Succession War, but only some of the factions actually want to rule, instead of just trying to survive.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15603
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #16 on: 05 April 2020, 12:22:59 »
I think the Draconis March might have a slightly different opinion of how involved Kurita was in the 4SW...

Minemech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #17 on: 05 April 2020, 12:34:31 »
I think the Draconis March might have a slightly different opinion of how involved Kurita was in the 4SW...
Unfortunately, this has the potential to lead to a discussion of the problems of the 4th, which are numerous, and required a litany of strokes to justify.

Minemech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #18 on: 05 April 2020, 12:39:53 »
The “Succession Wars” haven’t been about the First Lordship in a long time.  The 1SW was.  By the 2SW, no one really thought they were going to reestablish the Star League.  It was much more about getting a leg up on your opponent, achieving local/regional supremacy, but reforming the League was a distant dream at best, and already considered impossible at worst.  The House Lords all still claimed the title, but there wasn’t even a pretense of reestablishing the League during the 3SW.  The FedCom pact was seen as a thrust in the direction of reestablishing the League, but I’m inclined to take Hanse at his word that the 4SW itself was actually about vengeance for Operation Doppelganger.  Like ‘39, the 4th War wasn’t really a Sphere-wise war; Kurita and Marik were barely involved.  The Clan Invasion and Jihad were Succession Wars in all but name.  The post-Blackout violence has the scale of a Succession War, but only some of the factions actually want to rule, instead of just trying to survive.
The old house books led me to believe that some houses wanted hegemony, others wanted total conquest. A Star League would actually suite a Free Worlds League, because a First Lord would guarantee the protection of the memberstates. Likewise a Captain-General would actually be weakened by conquering too many worlds, as those worlds would gain votes. A dark interpretation of the brutality of the Lyran front is that it may have also held the potential to stop those worlds from becoming a strong voting block.

General308

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1308
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #19 on: 06 April 2020, 20:34:38 »
The Jihad was more or less a 5th Succession War with the most fanatical of the WoB coming out of the gate swinging, creating their own state only to have it implode. I also fail to see how the fighting in the Dark Age doesn't mirror the succession wars.

This

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10686
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #20 on: 06 April 2020, 20:46:27 »
The Succession Wars casus belli was to claim the title of First Lord of the Star League.  That was the point of them.  A war during which that was not the goal, either overtly or some other goal taken in service of that goal, is not a Succession War.  Co-opting the term to refer to any sphere-wide conflict is missing the point.  Specifically, the Word of Blake was never trying to claim any sort of relationship to the Star League except as member.

The Dark Age comes closer, but even the traditional aggressors have long-since abandoned any sort of Star League related justification and instead simply clarify the goal into its own reward and let naked ambition be naked ambition.

In a slightly more specific nitpick: one doesn't "fail to see" how something "doesn't" relate.  Support your assertion that it does, don't make everyone else do homework to disprove your double negative. :P
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7213
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #21 on: 06 April 2020, 20:54:14 »
Sorry, say the word and I will delete my post.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10686
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #22 on: 06 April 2020, 20:59:16 »
Sorry, say the word and I will delete my post.

No, I should apologize, that was overly harsh.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Manchu

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 293
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #23 on: 06 April 2020, 21:01:26 »
What puzzles me is, why would anyone want to rule a centralized pan-galactic state?
Refuse your what?

Valkerie

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gravity always wins.
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #24 on: 06 April 2020, 21:03:03 »
What puzzles me is, why would anyone want to rule a centralized pan-galactic state?
Out of control ego?  ???
There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others.   -Machiavelli

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.  Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.  -Groucho Markx

Greetings, Mechwarrior!  You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against...Oops, wrong universe.  -unknown SLDF Recruiter

Unit/Scheme of the Month Master Index

Adrian Gideon

  • Battletech Developer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5444
  • Freshly Minted Line Developer
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #25 on: 06 April 2020, 21:04:10 »

What exactly is the goal of operation REVIVAL? The supposed goal, at least at one point (and perhaps again, in the future), of the invading Clans? And what’s that whole concept called again?
« Last Edit: 06 April 2020, 21:38:53 by Adrian Gideon »
fb.com/battletechgame
@CGL_BattleTech
Eater of Shit Sandwiches

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15603
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #26 on: 06 April 2020, 21:08:33 »
Succession!

Oh, wait... that was supposed to be rhetorical, wasn't it?  :D

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7213
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #27 on: 06 April 2020, 21:45:22 »
No, I should apologize, that was overly harsh.
It's really hard to read tone on a internet post.

Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Manchu

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 293
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #28 on: 06 April 2020, 21:51:51 »
Out of control ego?
I guess. It is so much more trouble than it is worth.

At this point, you would think there would be some formal theory that the SL was an aberrant phase of astropolitics. Or, better yet, it was actually just a detente among the Great Houses that outlived its usefulness/got out of hand.
« Last Edit: 06 April 2020, 21:54:46 by Manchu »
Refuse your what?

Cubby

  • Communications
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2363
  • Back in Black
Re: Will there never be another Succession War?
« Reply #29 on: 08 April 2020, 09:48:02 »
My own $0.02 - purely from a real-world marketing standpoint, The [NUMBER] Succession War becomes increasingly undesirable and hard to present to new customers.

For one, you wind up with the Battles of Hesperus problem--what exactly makes the Twelfth Battle of Hesperus different/more interesting/more worth your money than the Eleventh? Yeah, sure, the enfranchised fans "get" how 3SW was different than 2SW, but imagine you have no relationship with the brand other than BB/AGOAC and you're ready to expand. There's only so much work that back cover copy can do to make up for the name of the product/war being so vague.

Which leads to the other big problem: "The Fifth Succession War" is a barrier to entry for new customers that's liable to make them feel like they've already missed the boat. "Geez, there were four other whole wars already? This is too much. I'll go play Infinity instead."

Of course, you don't have to title the actual book "The Fifth Succession War," but if you're calling it something else in the title...why refer to it that way inside at all?

Non-numbered conflicts with unique names that evoke something are much more preferable.
Demo Team Agent #639, northeastern Maryland.

BattleTech Line Editor and Writer - Sarna.net Profile