Author Topic: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour  (Read 128983 times)

Wolf72

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1260 on: 14 July 2020, 17:32:27 »
BT version of XXXXXXXXX 'pushing' newbies into the universe.  Let them get a taste, then let their imaginations take over when you start using numbered soda caps as your vehicle convoy. ... or lego minifigs as giant alien warriors!

huh, somehow that made more sense in my head ... I'll let it stand.

(edit: I could see this post not helping any arguments, bad 'word' edited out)
« Last Edit: 15 July 2020, 10:54:06 by Wolf72 »
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1261 on: 14 July 2020, 17:52:20 »
Do like my wife does when GMing RPGs. Use Starburst candies as the enemy units. Adopt a strict policy of YOU EAT WHAT YOU KILL.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1262 on: 14 July 2020, 18:05:27 »
Yeah, while I was never a WYSIWYG guy (back when I still played TT I played with the cardboard flats out of my old 4thEd boxed set), I do appreciate that in MM there are unique sprites for pretty much every single unit (you're a champ, Deadborder!).


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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1263 on: 14 July 2020, 18:12:23 »
From the perspective of the 6G potentially being a variant designed to match the model as well as provide an on-ramp for a new player into the current era I think it does the job. It may not be fancy, but if the previous sentence was the goal you do want it to be simple.  In which case the 6G is solid direct fire support, some very reliable backup close range weaponry, and based on the weapons at least, a new player isn't going to be bombarded with special rules or variable damage.  The minimum range on standard PPCs is even forgiving enough that it could teach a new player to be mindful of it without overly hitting them with a gotcha.

The more I think about it the more I would be willing to use it to help teach someone new.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1264 on: 14 July 2020, 19:42:00 »
The 6G might not be our only new Battlemaster. In the first two volumes the unseen 'Mech got two WYSIWYG 3150 variants.
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Wolf72

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1265 on: 14 July 2020, 21:01:14 »
Do like my wife does when GMing RPGs. Use Starburst candies as the enemy units. Adopt a strict policy of YOU EAT WHAT YOU KILL.

I think the attrition rate from massive planet spanning Kaiju might be overwhelming.  BUT that is an awesome idea!
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1266 on: 14 July 2020, 22:00:38 »
While it could be tangential, if they were standard works for hire, then the rights should reside with IMR/CGL or Topps. Not sure why their having passed away would have to do anything with it, lots of deceased authors still have books published and republished. You can still go into any bookstore and pick up Shakespeare, after all...

Buuuuut, I'm sure a red beemer will probably pop in to nudge us back on topic, so I'll clam up at this point.

From discussions with various people at previous GenCons,a lot of those early contracts were odd, where the rights reverted to the author, but the company. I want to say Sword & Dagger was specifically mentioned.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1267 on: 15 July 2020, 08:31:13 »
The 6G might not be our only new Battlemaster.

It isn't.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1268 on: 15 July 2020, 09:48:37 »
CGL doing the WYSIWYG thing is a natural part of the effort to bring BT into line with what is expected in modern gaming. I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of new people who might come to the TT game will either be from a 40k background where WYSIWYG is normal or be brought in via the two current video games that (as far as I know) both have a 'Mechs visual loadout change along with the actual loadout.

This combined with the fact that increasing numbers of people are able to actually 3D print great looking models at home. Any game that can't support WYSIWYG is going to look behind the times to new players. BT already struggles under the weight of its own history so little things like this should be embraced.

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1269 on: 15 July 2020, 10:11:42 »
CGL doing the WYSIWYG thing is a natural part of the effort to bring BT into line with what is expected in modern gaming. I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of new people who might come to the TT game will either be from a 40k background where WYSIWYG is normal or be brought in via the two current video games that (as far as I know) both have a 'Mechs visual loadout change along with the actual loadout.

This combined with the fact that increasing numbers of people are able to actually 3D print great looking models at home. Any game that can't support WYSIWYG is going to look behind the times to new players. BT already struggles under the weight of its own history so little things like this should be embraced.

What do you mean by support it? The fact I can use an MLP figurine as a dire wolf means another person can put down a model of a dire wolf that matches their loadout. It supports that.

Or do you mean something different?

Wolf72

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1270 on: 15 July 2020, 10:21:41 »
I think for BT the what-you-see issue is just an artistic point-of-view to help people visualize the game, not change or mandate anything. 

We'll always be solidly a token style game (no pun intended!). 

But it is nice to have some one look at a Griffin mini (from basic/intro set) and say/think: So it's got some sort of gun on the right arm and a set of missiles on the shoulder right?
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1271 on: 15 July 2020, 10:29:37 »
There is a huge issue with WYSIWYG for BT.

As a Demo agent, I am limited to running events only with official models. That means NO 3D printed models in official sanctioned BT games.

I don;t think I can even use other company models in games (i.e. No Robotech Riflemen)

So, lets take the Awesome for example. We have the recent Plastic Model of the Aweseme AWS-8Q, and a metal model of the AWS-9Q. That's it. But we also have the following:

AWS-8R (2x LRM 15, 1 L laser Right Arm)
AWS-8T (2x LRM 15, L Laser Left/Right Arms)

So, no official model of those, but they can be easily represented with the current existing models, easily with a "The Red Awesome is a standard 8Q, while the Blue Awesome is the 8R variant".

This is further constrained by the fact most other WYSIWYG games, records/unit details are not shared between participants. BT is not that, unless the game is double blind, and even then requires 3 parties to fully play, with 3 seperate maps, record sheets etc, see pages 220-224 of TacOps for full rules:

Quote
The double-blind format requires a minimum of three players,
one of whom acts as gamemaster. The gamemaster monitors
the status and movement of the two opposing players’ forces,
informs the players of their spotting sweep results and ensures
the smooth play of the game.

Three identical mapsheets and ’Mech sets are needed for
a double-blind game—one for each player and one for the
gamemaster. Each player uses his maps to record the movement
of his own units and any enemy forces his units have detected.
The gamemaster uses his mapsheets to record the movement of
both sides. Additionally, each player records the movement of his
forces on a copy of the double-blind movement chart found at
the back of this book.

But getting back to the Awesome's if BT were to move to a WYSIWYG model, all future games I run can no longer have AWS-8R's or 8T's or any other variant beyond the 8Q/9Q models (3 PPCs/4 PPCs) model as that further defining what a PPC looks like regardless of model because that is the point of a WYSIWYG. From https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/WYSIWYG

Quote
WYSIWYG
    What You See Is What You Get, commonly abbreviated to the acronym WYSIWYG is a basis for the entire Games Workshop line of models. It simply states that whatever kind of wargear or weapons that the model is going to have equipped going into battle MUST be shown on the model. For example, a Space Marine usually is armed with a bolter as part of their standard equipment. In order for everyone who looks at the space marine to know that he has a bolter and not another type of weapon (Flamer, Missile Launcher etc.) a bolter must be physically attached to the model.
    Some types of wargear also must be displayed on the model when appropriate. These wargear items are displayed when Games Workshop models have provided for said wargear. Otherwise, it is up to the player to include these wargear items as imagination permits.
    It should be noted that this term's officiality has come and gone over the years. Tournaments normally give a standard of models that can be used in play, and many have had very lenient policies. Sometimes, one type of miniature could be allowed as a proxy for another. However, often the rules are written to discourage such actions in order to prevent abuse.

So to go FULL WYSIWYG for BT, a PPC must be different from a large laser, and the model must then reflect that change. Remember that AWS-8R I mentioned above, the full weapon loadout is:

SMALL LASER - Head (both models have this, so we are fine here)
LRM-15 - Right Torso (Current 8Q/9Q model has no LRM 15 on the RT, major modelling work must be done to do so)
LRM-15 - Left Torso (Current 8Q/9Q model has no LRM 15 on the LT, major modelling work must be done to do so)
LARGE LASER - Right Arm (Current 8Q/9Q model has a PPC, under true WYSIWYG this must then be modified to distinguish between the two)

Thus, again without an 'official' model, as a Demo Agent I would only have the following as an option to run an 8R/8T in official events:

1. Learn 3D modeling, so I can make my very own unique 3d models of the 8Q. No taking existing models and 'tweaking them', not allowed

2. Get out the X-acto Knife, putty and other bits and hack and model an existing model to represent the model (something I'm not skilled enough to do, nor a lot of other agents)

3. Wait for CGL/Iron Wind metals to spend the $$$ to make an official variant (and who determines priority of models to make???)

4. Stay the course and continue to be a game of 'As long as all parties agree, model choice can be anything!'


« Last Edit: 15 July 2020, 10:33:10 by NeonKnight »
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1272 on: 15 July 2020, 10:37:48 »
where is anyone advocating a 40k-style mini system official or otherwise? we're getting a few variants that are designed to ease the transition into a game that is much (much, much... much) less stringent about these things than they're probably used to. the new series might top four percent of all variants by the time the RecGuide series is done. that's not a lot. some people entering our corner of the hobby might even find it weird to have non-conforming models. like the ability to use bottle caps, it provides another option

no need to blow it up into some kind of existential threat.

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1273 on: 15 July 2020, 10:40:37 »
 . . . before everyone goes full lemming . . .

The comment, to me, was that CGL using the KS art and releasing the Rec Guides with new variants that match the KS art offer a understandable entry in 3025 or current 3150 timelines point to folks who have been playing games that are strictly WYSIWYG.  By having the latest release (RecGuides) match the currently released minis/art it provides for a smoother transition to BT's mentality for folks looking for a new game to pick up.  Once they have played with whatever the new Marauder is we get, and they look to know more, we can explain that the Marauder has over a dozen different variants (most of which look like that -3R/-XXx) of which half have a mini . . . but hey, you can use that plastic Marauder you bought in the IS lance box to be a Marauder -3R in 3028, Marauder -5S in 3050, or Marauder -9D in 3145.  They all look the same!
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1274 on: 15 July 2020, 10:41:24 »
Ok, I need some clarification first:

Has there been official declaration that the models and artwork are in fact WYSIWYG?

OR any explanation that there was simply a goal to have a model that had reasonable visual reference to the record sheet.  The record sheet being the standard of what is on the table, not the model.

OR was was there speculation (not from CGL) about what CGL was doing and someone used the WYSIWYG acronym which started a smelly ball rolling uphill.

To be fair I only skimmed through posts when they first started rolling out and all I remember (possibly not correctly) there was just push to have some continuity amount models and record sheets without going WYSIWYG because of simple (I say casually) visual appeal.

[edit] I think I get the feeling what I read was the similar to Colt & Sartis.  (bolded b/c I think it's close to above post)
« Last Edit: 15 July 2020, 10:44:52 by Wolf72 »
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1275 on: 15 July 2020, 10:45:21 »
wysiwyg is a loaded term (note the pockets of panic you get just by mentioning it)

these are variants where the weapon placement matches the mini. nothing more.

mountains out of molehills and all that

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1276 on: 15 July 2020, 10:48:14 »
I could totally understand someone who runs events needing a firm and direct ruling, not using a term that has it's own power without any additional connotation to it ... the word level needs connotation, WYSIWYG does not (ie should not be used loosely).
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1277 on: 15 July 2020, 10:49:00 »
wysiwyg is a loaded term (note the pockets of panic you get just by mentioning it)

these are variants where the weapon placement matches the mini. nothing more.

mountains out of molehills and all that
I had my concern allayed about a page ago, which is why I haven't said anything further.

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1278 on: 15 July 2020, 11:01:34 »
The issue is WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Got/get), began with 40k, and as folks are saying switching to WYSIWYG is a good thing, I am merely pointing out the other side, of the coin, playing Devil's Advocate if you will:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/devil-s-advocate
Quote
devil's advocate
noun [ C usually singular ]
uk
/ˌdev.əlz ˈæd.və.kət/ us
/ˌdev.əlz ˈæd.və.kət/
someone who pretends, in an argument or discussion, to be against an idea or plan that a lot of people support, in order to make people discuss and consider it in more detail:

So, I was expressing counter arguments to various aspects of WYSIWYG I had seen above:

CGL doing the WYSIWYG thing is a natural part of the effort to bring BT into line with what is expected in modern gaming. I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of new people who might come to the TT game will either be from a 40k background where WYSIWYG is normal or be brought in via the two current video games that (as far as I know) both have a 'Mechs visual loadout change along with the actual loadout.

This combined with the fact that increasing numbers of people are able to actually 3D print great looking models at home. Any game that can't support WYSIWYG is going to look behind the times to new players. BT already struggles under the weight of its own history so little things like this should be embraced.

So, don't think I am completely aiti WYSIWYG (I'd love more variations in models), I'm simply pointing out counter arguments as to why currently moving to a WYSIWYG style-of-play is not viable at this moment in time.


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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1279 on: 15 July 2020, 11:04:48 »
The WYSIWYG was purely internal for submitting specific variants for a specific book.
This isn't new, the primary TR variant has always had to match the art. (Or the art match the primary TR variant).  In this case, the art also happens to be used for another variant, making the design work more "interesting".
The circumstances are different, but it's still the same standard as has been true for most every Technical Readout since 3025.

It has never meant anything, in BT, for the players as any sort of requirement.  It's in the official rules. TW p20. "players may use whatever miniature they have on hand or any other counter or item to represent each unit". Miniatures arent even required, much less specific miniatures.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1280 on: 15 July 2020, 11:07:39 »
Thanx nckestrel!

Just thought I'd point out, love your side project of WYSIWYG design challenge, etc.

And for others, don;t take my posts above as being anti-WYSIWYG, just point out counter arguments some folks may not think about.

I have long been a "lets try and break it now so we don;t need to fix it later!"
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1281 on: 15 July 2020, 11:10:04 »
While personally I don't have issue with WYSIWYG I do hope that it's going to stay as optional thing in BT and doesn't become rule like is with 40k. I mean to me big thing about BT has always been lack of WYSIWG rule thanks to record sheets being your units and miniatures being difficult to find outside ordering those online. Also not everyone has 3D printers so it's wrong to assume that everyone has access to those.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1282 on: 15 July 2020, 11:37:58 »
The issue is WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Got/get), began with 40k, and as folks are saying switching to WYSIWYG is a good thing, I am merely pointing out the other side, of the coin, playing Devil's Advocate if you will:

. . . .

So, don't think I am completely aiti WYSIWYG (I'd love more variations in models), I'm simply pointing out counter arguments as to why currently moving to a WYSIWYG style-of-play is not viable at this moment in time.

No one was advocating WYSIWYG, you took that and raced for the cliff on your own.  Dmon was talking about supporting that approach- which the KS art & Rec Guides do quite well.

Leave the molehill be . . .
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1283 on: 15 July 2020, 11:39:42 »
No one was advocating WYSIWYG, you took that and raced for the cliff on your own.  Dmon was talking about supporting that approach- which the KS art & Rec Guides do quite well.

Leave the molehill be . . .

Sorry, was not aware the only discussion that could be taken was supporting WYSIWYG, and that counter arguments were verbotten ;)
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1284 on: 15 July 2020, 11:40:22 »
The devil's advocate approach did not come across that way at all until you clarified later.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1285 on: 15 July 2020, 11:44:25 »
There is a huge issue with WYSIWYG for BT.
[/quote]

your "counter argument" was against something not being suggested, much less made


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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1286 on: 15 July 2020, 11:48:28 »
Sorry, was not aware the only discussion that could be taken was supporting WYSIWYG, and that counter arguments were verbotten ;)

It was not even that!  No one was trying to support WYSIWYG, you made that assumption on your own.  No need to play the martyr.  What was said, again, that KS art & minis were matching- and had some benefits of being- WYSIWYG for the latest variants provided in the Rec Guides.  Instead of KS minis being '3025 designs only.'

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1287 on: 15 July 2020, 11:50:10 »
It was not even that!  No one was trying to support WYSIWYG, you made that assumption on your own.  No need to play the martyr.  What was said, again, that KS art & minis were matching- and had some benefits of being- WYSIWYG for the latest variants provided in the Rec Guides.  Instead of KS minis being '3025 designs only.'
I see it as really benefiting new players, having mini match the sheet really helps them avoid confusion.
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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1288 on: 15 July 2020, 11:52:53 »
Guys, you are running in circles. About nothing.
Read Nckestrel's reply again and then I suggest to change the topic.
There is nothing to discuss or fear here.

The WYSIWYG was purely internal for submitting specific variants for a specific book.
This isn't new, the primary TR variant has always had to match the art. (Or the art match the primary TR variant).  In this case, the art also happens to be used for another variant, making the design work more "interesting".
The circumstances are different, but it's still the same standard as has been true for most every Technical Readout since 3025.

It has never meant anything, in BT, for the players as any sort of requirement.  It's in the official rules. TW p20. "players may use whatever miniature they have on hand or any other counter or item to represent each unit". Miniatures arent even required, much less specific miniatures.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Upcoming Releases XVI: Jardine Grand Tour
« Reply #1289 on: 15 July 2020, 12:06:57 »
Think I'll create a proxy unit topic later, but to get back on track:

While we are waiting for PoD and the Rec Guide Vol III this Friday, anything I'm forgetting?
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